Japanese Language

... Honestly, when quoting text from another language, I don't see why it is any more correct to use the quotation marks expected by the embedding language versus those of the quoted language.

who is Karl Knechtel and why isn't he on this site more?

jkerian

hmm?

silvermaple

2:43 AM

I was reading that comment thread and was thinking the same thing

he was last on 9 months ago

personally, I think using 「」 when quoting something in Japanese is the most aesthetically pleasing. the same as using "" when quoting something in English.

and the purpose of punctuation is clarity, not necessarily logic

jkerian

perhaps sawa violently opposes the "for example" phrase?

silvermaple

yeah, what is up with that?

I've been trying to edit mine and other questions to be a little more generic, and less specific...so "for example" works well for this...

Flaw

What's wrong with "for example"?

jkerian

Since I mentioned the name once already, I shouldn't bother to dance around using the name again. Sawa has some VERY bizarre ideas of what is or is not proper English.

And will edit aggressively both questions and answers so that they fit those ideas.

silvermaple

I've noticed that as well

Flaw

2:54 AM

I've only noticed it when it crosses languages.

silvermaple

i tend to find his ideas of what (English) terminology should be used is very highbrow and overly-technical

Flaw

There's a huge focus on language-centricism sometimes

I don't disagree with the use of "highbrow overly-technical" terms

I think we should call things what they are, even if the word used is specific and technical

jkerian

Just remember, "as you all know" is insulting >_>

I note that both of you were in that discussion

Flaw

Well it's not insulting per se

it depends on the tone of voice. It CAN be condescending does not mean it IS condescending.

silvermaple

I'm sorry, we're not all linguistic experts, and we still use this site...

@jkerian what discussion?

Flaw

2:58 AM

3

Q: How do I convey "As you all know"?

Having been trying to write a "sakubun", I must say that I had some trouble to find a reliable translation for the phrase "as you all know" such as: As you all know, the education system in our country is not so good as it's claimed to be. As known by all of you, the education system in ...

this one

silvermaple

oh yeah

Flaw

It's true that this site is not meant for a 100% linguistic expert community

but I have to admit that my learning pace improved by actually accepting those terminology into my thoughts

silvermaple

have you seen the tag synonyms he's proposed? no one would be able to find anything...

Flaw

How do I say... it sort of "defragments" my mind?

What used to be pieces of incidentally related information are now grouped under one concept.

silvermaple

oh yeah, i think that learning all the words is a good idea, but there is a time and place for everything

Flaw

3:00 AM

It saves brain-space

silvermaple

brain-space!

Flaw

Yea! Cos I think my brain can't handle so many things. I'm always finding ways to save brain-space

silvermaple

Oh yeah, that makes perfect sense

:D

Flaw

(which seems like a catch22, considering I have to memorise MORE terminology)...

silvermaple

it's all about the connections your brain can make

Flaw

3:02 AM

It makes faster connections if all the separate concepts are tagged under one big one.

Which sort of explains the use of technical words I guess?

silvermaple

just the other day i realized the kanji for ほしい is 欲, which is a kanji I had been learning, but couldn't ever remember, but then when i read 何とか欲しい, i was all "OH! I get it now!"

it's connections!

Flaw

I get what you mean though

silvermaple

sorry if im rambling, it's late here @.@

Flaw

It's like instead of using the word "connections", by using words like "associative memory" there's (un)necessary complication of concepts?

silvermaple

hmm? in general I don't think so. If "associative memory" means to your brain "connections" just as much as "connections" does, then i don't think it's any different...but that's your personal brain

if you're chatting with friends who know certain terms, by all means, use them

but I mean specifically for this site, being too technical can be a bad thing, especially if it's used in an answer to a question that was asked at a beginner/intermediate level, and on the site itself

Like in tags.

jkerian

3:09 AM

meh... the tags here are worthless

Flaw

That was one of the walls I came up against in my self-study

To crash directly into foreign words in my own language haha

jkerian

I have no idea how to make them better, to be honest... but as it stands, they serve no purpose whatsoever

silvermaple

I don't know if I can help with that one :(

What do you mean, Flaw?

Flaw

Like going into terms like "grammatical case"

up till I started learning Japanese grammar, there was only things like UPPERCASE and lowercase

jkerian

hehe

Flaw

3:13 AM

Walking deeper to encounter things like "subjunctive past"

silvermaple

woah, I didn't even know that one

oh yeah, the subjunctive is so much fun

We're best buddies

Oh wait!

Flaw

I had no idea these concepts existed in words.

silvermaple

yes, I do know about cases

Flaw

But they helped me a great deal once I read more

silvermaple

Except when I was first learning about them it was in Spanish, and it was my first year at University, so I thought my Spanish was awful, but it just turned out that my understanding of grammar wasn't what it should have been

Flaw

3:15 AM

It was like a bridge to connect between languages

silvermaple

but I think I could still only think of examples in Spanish...

Flaw

It helps to have "<phenomena in language A> is called <technical term> which is exactly the same phenomena in <language B>"

silvermaple

Yeah

Flaw

It's good for understanding and learning from a rather academic perspective

silvermaple

I think making links to one's native language is very important in learning a new one...some people don't

Flaw

3:17 AM

but (at least for me) it has done nothing to improve my actual ability to use the language.

silvermaple

and to relate back to the subjunctive...for all intents and purposes, we don't have it in English, so that's fun...

Flaw

We do have subjunctive past, just that it's not contained within the verb

the phenomena still exists in English

silvermaple

yup

it exists, but we almost go out of our way to avoid using it

Flaw

we do?

silvermaple

if you read a sentence in English in the subjunctive, it sounds stupid

Flaw

3:20 AM

"If only I had done ~, then I'd be ~"

that's conveying a subjunctive past

silvermaple

there were a bunch of examples in a textbook i had once

yeah, that's a good one, but I'm talking about the present subjunctive

Flaw

"I'll be ~, if I'm doing ~"

silvermaple

they weren't wrong exactly, just we would never say it that way...I think it must have been a spanish book...

Flaw

"Well I'll be damned, if I don't ~"

That's subjunctive, and present

silvermaple

yeah...i guess it is

Flaw

3:22 AM

But I guess we don't normally think about these actively while using English

it just happens!

silvermaple

but, argh, they were really good examples

ugh, if it was in the book i think it was in i'll look for it tomorrow...it's too late tonight to dig through my stacks of old textbooks

Flaw

I might not be around this week to read your findings =(

My internet connection is not moving with me (I'm moving to a new place).

silvermaple

now I'm conjugating spanish verbs in the subjunctive in my head...i should get some sleep

oh, that's not a good thing :(

Flaw

At least I have my (unreliable) mobile network

silvermaple

i think

sea, seas, sea, seamos, seais, sean

there's an accent on that 'i'

well, that's better than nothing

you always forget what a pain in the neck moving is, until you have to do it again

Flaw

3:28 AM

1. Informal second-person plural (vosotros, vosotras) present subjunctive form of ser.
2. Informal second-person plural (vosotros or vosotras) negative imperative form of ser.

That's what I got after running it on google

I can see how that added almost nothing to my understanding haha

silvermaple

that's the negative imperative?

Flaw

That's for seáis

silvermaple

there's a negative imperative in spanish?

no...

you just add "no" to before the imperative....right?

Flaw

I have no idea. I don't take spanish