Moderation - 2017-03-15

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4:05 AM

@AnkitSharma @Rickross @ Mr.Alien @SreeCharan @SwiftPushkar @Tezz What do you think about?:

7

Q: Is Personal Experience a Source?

Many answers on this site don't really have tangible sources such as citations from scriptures or the internet. My question is, if someone's answer is based on their practices growing up and conversations they have had with family members and gurus, is there a need for a source to verify that inf...

discussion sources-and-citations

1 hour later…

5:30 AM

@Pandya How can we allow that? I am not sure..In any case they can always post such experiences in comments..

@Rickross Yes, I've also tried to explain in the answer that we can't consider it as source.

@Rickross Btw, what do you think about the part "If no such text references are present, then users can provide answers which they have learned or heard about the culture from parents and others" from guideline? /cc @Tezz @TheDestroyer

@Pandya Yes just read it and up voted..If such answers are allowed then there will complete chaos..

@Pandya Personal experience can be wrong every easily.

@Pandya Can we not use banner in such situations?You guys are more learned than on the issue..so you can tell..

@Rickross ok. Btw, I've also tried to explain related things at "If you don't have reference to cite at present" section in my answer.

@AnkitSharma Hi! yes, btw, have you visited/read recent meta posts like this and this.

5:42 AM

@Pandya I think "my parents told me so"..is not a good source..But in truth the parents are learning them from their parents and so on..In such cases(at least in most of such cases)..the original source can be traceable to some Scriptures or the other..

Because the parents in most cases are not imagining things..but we can not accept them as sources too

@Rickross Yes, you're right, such answers must be backed up with authoritative sources.

@Pandya @AnkitSharma Can we not convert answers without sources or lacking in similar departments to comments?..That's less harsh than deletion..

@Pandya yes but not in details

@Rickross comment length is short, and for long answer converting it into comment hardly make any sense

@Rickross Yes, we can and we (mods) 're thinking in that direction also. But there is problem if the answer is long.

@AnkitSharma Ok..but can we not use more than one comments ? Is that too problematic for a moD too or an easy task? @Pandya

5:48 AM

@Rickross there is no tool to split one answer into multiple comments.

@AnkitSharma Oh i see..

We can just make answer into single comment or delete it

@AnkitSharma Ok..then that's a problem..

@Pandya @AnkitSharma Ok leaving now.. bye :)

@Rickross Good bye!

@Pandya Haha Isn't Good Bye for someone whos taking a permanent leave? My leave is not permanent..:D..anyways Bye :)

5:53 AM

@AnkitSharma But Keshav has a trick to do that.

@Rickross Haha, Bye

@Rickross bye

@Rickross Yes. That's first priority, if answer has useful content. If we can't get sources or if answer is too long, we will delete it.

@TheDestroyer You mean covert to comment, undeleet +edit , covert to comment and repeat

@AnkitSharma Yes.

5:58 AM

'If no refrence is avaliable...' such question will already be closed as off topic/ not related to Hinduism....

6:18 AM

@TheDestroyer It's too time consuming and is it even necessary when even the OP don't care

7:06 AM

@Tezz what do you mean by "If no refrence is avaliable.."?

7:28 AM

@Pandya Personal opinions are not considered valid sources. I have even disagreed with #1 of back it up rule given by Shog9. if personal opinions are considered authentic, there would be chaos. There is your comment under the answer too.

@Tezz Answers without references will be deleted. Questions will not be closed as off-topic. Pandya is talking about answers not questions.

8:12 AM

@SreeCharan Yes, you're right. I mentioned "it can't be considered as source" in my answer to that question. I'll discuss with shog to edit his post to clarify this :)

@SreeCharan I think @Tezz is saying that there might be reference to cite in answer if the question is related ro Hinduism! Haha

@Pandya Yes. Like Bhishmas question.

@Pandya Yeah you are right... haha... I'm indirectly saying that personal opinions shouldn't be allowed...

4

Q: Why didn't Bhishma Pitamaha stop Kamsa?

We know Bhishma Pitamaha was a legendary warrior. He always fought for the right thing and for truth. Then, if Kamsa was doing so much evil, and Bhishma Pitamaha was already there on Earth, why didn't he try to stop Kamsa?

mythology mahabharata puranas bhagavata-purana bhishma

@TheDestroyer yeah one can generate infinite no. Of such type of questions... by permutations and combinations of characters... haha..😀😀

@Tezz haha. Yeah. They are hypothetical questions.

8:27 AM

@TheDestroyer Yes, and such questions fall in the category of help/dont-ask

8 hours later…

4:21 PM

What do you think about this faq?

@Tezz @SreeCharan @sv. ^^^

@TheDestroyer What do you mean? You want my views? :)

@sv. Yes.

@TheDestroyer I have an even fundamental question: What exactly is the purpose of an FAQ?

-3

Q: What rules does this site currently follow? When does a highly-upvoted post become a rule?

What rules does this site currently follow? Are the rules being followed here arbitrary (i.e., "subject to interpretation") or are they very-well-defined so any user can easily lookup a rule if required and dispute a mod's decision citing a particular rule? Are the current site FAQs considered r...

discussion faq-proposed

I request you mods to work on an answer to this before making something a FAQ or not. Honestly, I'm confused about the rule-making process itself and what do votes really mean on any meta SE site. I take voting seriously on meta, i.e., if a post gets 5-10 votes, it needs to be taken seriously by mods and rest of the community.

@TheDestroyer As for that Wiki FAQ, I support the answer by @MKaama written back in "Jul 15 '14 at 17:36" I've upvoted it long time ago. But again that is a FAQ and not enforced on the main site. So I'm not sure anymore what's the purpose of voting on meta :)

@sv. That was during intial days. Now we are revisiting rules.

@sv. After completely revising all rules and finalizing them, your questions will be answered automatically.

4:40 PM

@TheDestroyer The rule-making process comes before the rules, don't you think?

@sv. I agree that we (community) should take voting considerably and FAQ should be clear but note that with growth of a beta site some things may change. (It doesn't mean that earlier actions was wrong). When a meta post get considerable votes, it is considered important guide. And not everything is announced

@Pandya Ok, whatever your views are, please write all that in an answer.

@Pandya "And not everything is announced" - disagree, rules and policies need to be announced. This was exactly the problem with the previous mod team.

@sv. Yes. We are making rules now. So, cannot completely answer your questions. As we need to finalize many issues.

@sv. After finalizing, we will anounce all rules.

@TheDestroyer Yes, please continue to work, no issues. But please understand that rules and rule-making process itself are completely separate. Imagine how a bill is passed in parliament. Content of the bill is not connected to how voting on bill takes place and when it becomes the law.

@sv. Very important policy is worth to announce, for other meta posts like faq (or say important discussions), they can had featured at that time. Users can be referred to such posts.

4:48 PM

@sv. No. How can we enforce old rules when old rules are revised, even if they have many upvotes (may contain upvotes from old community members)?

@Pandya Ok, but I think featured is to draw attention to a post. Doesn't really mean anything.

@Pandya "Very important policy is worth to announce" - who's going to decide what is less important and more important?

@TheDestroyer Frankly, there's not much voting going on meta.Hinduism.SE not many active members. So we need to take some of the past votes seriously. The active 10 users cannot revisit past FAQs and rewrite them. I don't think that's fair.

@sv. Also, if we see history of Hinduism, Adi Shankara revived Hinduism only through scriptures (Vedanta or Upanishads) and only through logic of scriptures (not by his logic). So, we must consider those historical facts while framing rules. This is also the reason for enforcing Strict source rules and most active users abide to it.

@TheDestroyer "Adi Shankara revived Hinduism only through scriptures" - It's best to keep specifics of Hinduism out of meta discussions :P

@sv. You know how wiki is written. Atheists and Christians write articles on Hinduism. Are they worth enough for sources?

@TheDestroyer I think you misunderstood my views on Wiki.

Please read the top upvoted answer again.

5

A: Is it OK to cite Wikipedia in answers?

I looked through various quoted Wikipedia pages and found these two particularly objectionable: http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Varna_(Hinduism)&oldid=616427935 (not even describing the varnas according to the Hindu scriptures, instead some tripartite hypothesis) http://en.wikipedia.o...

"So I would prefer a quote from a Sanskrit source rather than from Wikipedia."

4:55 PM

@sv. ohh sorry! i thought different answer. BTW, i upvoted that answer

@sv. No. These facts are very important.

:)

@TheDestroyer It's ok. Now go back and re-read all my previous comments :P

@sv. Based/Depends on If there is a big change or clarification regarding critical discussion/disputes. (As you can see recent policy on deleting unsourced answers)

So I'm essentially asking why the "Don't cite Wikipedia" was not enforced by previous mods when it was already an FAQ?

What is the real purpose of all these FAQs? What FAQs are rules? What FAQs are just guidance?

@sv. But i don't know why you said, rules and rule making are different.

I've been around on this site for a while and I myself can't tell what FAQs are to be taken seriously and which ones are jokes, for fun ...

@TheDestroyer "Imagine how a bill is passed in parliament. Content of the bill is not connected to how voting on bill takes place and when it becomes the law."

@TheDestroyer I cannot explain you any better than that statement! :P

5:01 PM

@sv. haha. but there Content of bill is nowhere related to voting. But here it is not the case. Rules decide actions and we are not sure about rules (opinions of people).

@sv. Do you mean we should not allow answers that cite Wikipedia as source?

@TheDestroyer It's the same. I'll explain you how. You asked for comments and suggestions in the post below:

10

Q: Official policy for deleting answers that don't cite sources

As discussed in this question, most users agree with rule of backing up answers with sources. Now comes the question, what is the official procedure for deleting answers that don't cite sources? Two possible cases arise. Answers by new and active users (including answers by all unregistered u...

discussion featured sources-and-citations answers

Now how do you decide what becomes an official policy?

@sv. Content of bill is exclusive. For example, bill after implementing won't affect parliament but it will affect people outside parliament.

"Now how do you decide what becomes an official policy?" - thru voting. Mods cannot implement something which goes against the votes.

Bill content has no relation to rules of parliament. If a bill passed about "rules of parliament", then it affects parliament.

5:06 PM

That is the rule making process on any of the meta sites, AFAIK, correct me if I'm wrong.

@TheDestroyer It doesn't matter, bill about the parliament itself is also a bill.

@Pandya Yes.

@sv. You should forget most of the old answers as we are revisiting.

-3

Q: Between Daśaratha-Jātaka and Vālmīki Rāmāyaṇa which is older?

One of the fundamental differences between the Buddhist Daśaratha-Jātaka and the Vālmīki Rāmāyaṇa is that Sītā is portrayed as Rāma's half-sister in the Jātaka: Once upon a time, at Benares, a great king named Dasaratha renounced the ways of evil, and reigned in righteousness. Of his sixteen ...

ramayana history valmiki buddhism jataka-tales

@Pandya In my Q's I specifically state: PS. Please don't answer citing blogs or Wikipedia.

@sv. No. Only in that specific case, it affects Parliament. For example, if a bill is passed about Women Reservations, will it affect "majority of votes" needed to pass a bill in parliament?

@Pandya There is no reason to write such stuff if there was a clear rule. But there isn't any.

@TheDestroyer No, then we have to forget the Back It Up rule also.

11

A: Can we enforce quotations of scripture references?

A Back It Up! rule is a good idea for any subjective topic (which is to say, any topic where the asker or other readers cannot personally verify answers on their own): Back It Up! means that your answers must be based on either: Something that happened to you personally Something y...

@sv. Yes. That's what we are saying. If old rules are given importance, why there will be need to revisit them?

@sv. Pandya asked Shog for correction/improvements.

5:11 PM

@TheDestroyer I thought the only reason we are revisiting everything is because no one knows what rules are being followed currently.

@sv. Though Wikipedia can not be considered as reliable source, I think we cannot ban an encyclopedia reference. Voting will decide it's correctness.

@Pandya So at the end of voting, if there's no clear outcome, Wikipedia will be allowed, correct?

@sv. No. We want to revisit as many active users feel old rules are obsolete. So, we are revisiting. what you said is true (but not in this context). Many users here don't know exact rules.

@Pandya This post received 7 upvotes. It talks about Wikipedia as well.

7

A: The copy-paste issue, Hinduism version

Along with what Shog posted, I think it is important to understand that this site should provide a much higher quality resource for information concerning the culture of Hinduism (whatever that is). People who are frustrated with Wikipedia and other blogs, sites, etc should be able to come here f...

"this site should NOT cite Wikipedia, contain personal opinions, be regurgitated, or have poor spelling, grammar, or phrasing"

@Pandya How many votes do you need? How many times will you ask the same question again & again? :P

"I try to avoid this site..." - you could take it up on meta. You could do a post on what's lacking here. — sv. Mar 1 at 18:58

BTW, you guys could try getting in touch with that user. He seems to be a very knowledgeable guy but for some reason he doesn't want to participate on the site.

@sv. Yes, I agree that we must insist on reliable and authoritative sources. But not sure whether to ban citing Wikipedia.

5:19 PM

@Pandya I think majority users should decide. I think banning is good if he cites it as main source but for basic info or jargon, we can use it.

@Pandya Then make it a rule, don't ban it, please don't revisit again & again for fun :P Let's not waste everybody's time?

in Vedanta and Philosophy, Mar 6 at 17:25, by The Destroyer

@Tezz Yes. Agree with you. I think it can be used only for basic info. For example, if a user doesn't know Shiva Samhita, to know basic info, OP can post link of Shiva Samhita wiki page.

@Pandya You seem to love Wikipedia from what I can tell and you don't want to ban it :) So the side effect of that is you're not going take voting on meta seriously anyway? :P

in Vedanta and Philosophy, Mar 6 at 17:23, by The Destroyer

@SwiftPushkar Yes. But Wiki is good for basic info but not for profound answers. I think we should allow it only for basic info.

@TheDestroyer Agree 100%. For minor references, it's ok but not the main portion of the answer.

5:22 PM

@sv. Wow! you agree with me.

@TheDestroyer I agree / disagree with an idea, I don't hate people :)

I already quoted above: "this site should NOT cite Wikipedia, contain personal opinions, be regurgitated, or have poor spelling, grammar, or phrasing"

@sv. i meant same thing but implicitly.

I keep referencing that line in a lot of my answers on meta.

@sv. Ultimately we go with community.

@Pandya Hopefully.

5:25 PM

@sv. Now comes important question, should we convert answers which cite wiki to comments (if it has useful content ) and delete answers if they are too long and unrelated?

Like fate of answers with no sources?

@TheDestroyer Citation banner may be more appropriate if it's long and cites Wikipedia.

@Pandya @TheDestroyer We can go with Wikipedia for basic info. EG: What is Mahabharata. But not for the incidents in the Mahabharata.

2

@SreeCharan Yes. Exactly.

@SreeCharan Yes.

@sv. I think citation banners are not effective. My choice would be same as answers without sources. Either convert to comments or delete.

5:30 PM

@TheDestroyer Yes, either one is fine with me. Converting long answers to comments seems tedious. But luckily, I'm not a mod :P

@sv. haha. It will be tedious if it exceeds more than 2 comments. But if other answer (with sources) has same content as answer without sources, we can delete that answer

Ok.

@sv. @SreeCharan @Pandya @Tezz There is also another issue which will be discussed in future. Answers with half hinduism related content and other half with non Hinduism related content. For example, if a question is asked, Who are Rahu and Ketu? and How are eclipses formed? If a person answers 1st question with Sagara Madhana Story and second question with Physics, what should be fate of such answers?

@TheDestroyer Scientific speculation is off-topic here. See related meta post. :P

@SreeCharan haha... 😀😀

5:42 PM

@SreeCharan No. Speculation is not correct word here. Speculation is saying Shiva Linga is Nuclear power plant. rahu and Ketu are lunar nodes. This is scientific fact. But problem is, he/she cites sources for half of his answer.

7

A: What are the beliefs related to lunar and solar eclipses?

You heard correctly. The story of Rahu and Ketu occurs after the churning of the ocean, when Vishnu turned into the beautiful woman Mohini in order to trick the Asuras (demons) and give the Amrita, the nectar of immortality, only to the gods (gods). The Adi Parva of the Mahabharata describes wh...

@TheDestroyer Man, I was kidding.

@SreeCharan ok. 😀😀

6:14 PM

@TheDestroyer Mods can edit and ~~strike-through~~ or delete objectionable content.

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