Board and Card Games

doppelgreener

8:42 AM

They're wonderful so far :D

Going strong for the artifacts matter deck

Malco

5:50 PM

New batch of spoilers is out again, I foresee questions about this card:

also people are salivating over this guy, but he seems kind of "win-more" even if he is useful against weeny decks

mythicspoiler.com/c18/cards/ancientstoneidol.html

murgatroid99

I don't really see how it's "win-more". The point is that you cast it for cheap when you're getting attacked for a lot

Hackworth

6:37 PM

So @Gendolkari, I'm not sure I understand your example in your answer here

3

Q: Why does Cryptbreaker need this additional text?

The card Cryptbreaker has the following ability: Tap three untapped Zombies you control: You draw a card and you lose 1 life. Why is it necessary to specify that the three Zombies must be untapped? You can't tap an already tapped creature, or use tapped creatures to pay a tap cost. MtG card...

magic-the-gathering

You give the example Darkest Hour

and Ivy Lane Denizen

So assuming that Denizen also triggered on itself, and DH was in play

Would denizen trigger on itself if it came into play as a black creature?

I'm not sure it's self-evident

Is "[cardname with some printed quality] or another [permanents with the same quality as cardname]" simply verbosely clarifying for and equivalent to [any permanent with some quality], or is it 2 different wordings?

Malco

@murgatroid99 I get that the intent is to flash it in as a blocker, but that seems to be a bit narrow since you would need to be attacked by several creatures to make it affordable. The "win-more" part is flashing it in on your own turn when you are attacking with your own creatures. it just seems like there might be better things to do if you have enough attacking creatures to make the golem cheap/free.

But then again EDH does what EDH wants and can get a bit silly sometimes, so who knows it might be useful with how long games can get

and how big boards can get

GendoIkari

My example with a Black Denizen wasn't about Denizen coming into play (though I think it would be the same either way), but about any green creature coming into play (I failed to realize that it's impossible for a green creature to come into play if Darkest Hour is around)

The point was that "another green creature" will work on any green creature, even if the card on which the ability is printed is not a "green creature".

Hackworth

6:52 PM

Well that's the question, isnt it? Is there a card that does NOT have the stated quality, but DOES have the wording "another object with the stated quality"?

GendoIkari

And it should also apply to black Denizen coming into play. The ability says specifically that it triggers when Denizen comes into play.. the fact that there's a second trigger, separated by an "or", shouldn't affect the first trigger at all

There isn't as cards are printed. Because it would be confusing wording

but it can be made to happen through effects like Darkest Hour

I'd be happy if anyone else is able to chime in with a ruling or something. I do know there was a similar question on the site.. I think it dealt maybe more with if "another" implied that there had to be more than 1.

Hackworth

wording cant take into account other effects though, thats the whole point of card interaction.

But lets get serious - rules ref for your point?

GendoIkari

I think it just follows naturally from the rules of English... and 603.2 which says that an event triggers when it's triggering event happens

I don't think there's a rule dealing with how "or" in triggering events is interpreted

I interpret it (based on English reading), as being "if the first thing happens, or if the second thing happens".

In this case, "If Denizen enters the field, or if a green creature enters the field"

Hackworth

sure, but because of "another", the first and second are possibly related

A or another A' means A is a special example of A'

Malco

Not sure myself, but if you guys are looking for a quick second opinion you can try out the mtg Judge IRC

GendoIkari

6:58 PM

I think what might be needed here is just a new question. I'd be happy to write it up. I wouldn't be able to answer because I don't have any actual rules reference

sorry, clearly Denizen would not apply when it enters the battlefield; because it doesn't have the "or" wording at all; it only works on "another".

Hackworth

Yeah I know, let's assume it does for the sake of argument

doesnt matter

GendoIkari

I'm writing up a question

Hackworth

As a non-MtG example: If someone told me "whenever you see a cat or another animal walk through that door, tell me"

Ignoring the silliness of the example, it would support my interpretation

maybe a full non-mtg example

Harry says to me: "Whenever you see Garfield or another cat walk through that door, tell me."

then a wizard turns all cats into Roomba robots

and a Roomba Garfield comes through the door

do I tell Harry, because it's Garfield, or do I not tell him, because it's not a cat?

GendoIkari

7:14 PM

I could easily see that example either way

question has been posted

Hackworth

yeah I think the "interpret card text based on english" completely fails here

damn you, natural languages and your ambiguities

GendoIkari

7:34 PM

6

Q: If Rhonas's power is less than 4 but you control a creature with power 4 or greater, can he attack or block?

I was playing a game of standard where the other player had Rhonas the Indomitable on the board, and I enchanted it with Illusory Wrappings, but he controlled a Honored Hydra. Can Rhonas still attack or block? Because the way I read the card it states another creature, which means according to me...

magic-the-gathering

I think that was the question I was thinking of

not the same; but related

Hackworth

7:50 PM

yes, absolutely relevant

also the anafenza example really made it clear for me

However that also means your answer for the original question is not correct

6

Q: Why does Cryptbreaker need this additional text?

The card Cryptbreaker has the following ability: Tap three untapped Zombies you control: You draw a card and you lose 1 life. Why is it necessary to specify that the three Zombies must be untapped? You can't tap an already tapped creature, or use tapped creatures to pay a tap cost. MtG card...

magic-the-gathering

where you said that the wordsings are equivalent

Malco

Might be a good idea to include an example with Anafenza in your answer, perhaps where an Anafenza with Vigilance attacks?

murgatroid99

@Hackworth I don't see the issue with the answer there

murgatroid99

8:16 PM

Nevermind, I see, it's the tangential examples

Though it's pretty difficult to get the specific referenced ability onto a non-creature permanent

I mean, it is in general difficult to get abilities from creatures onto non-creature permanents

Hackworth

9:25 PM

it's difficult to make creatures into non-creatures, true

but e.g. opalescence or march of the machines makes the other way rather easy

murgatroid99

9:36 PM

sure, but that doesn't really matter here

If the example was a non-creature artifact like Glint Hawk Idol, then you could construct a problematic scenario with March of the Machines and Neurok Transmuter

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