V'dibarta Bam - 2013-03-03

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2:25 AM

shavuoh tov

3 hours later…

5:49 AM

@DhoweedYaAgov & you, and all.

@SethJ @IsaacMoses I realized (late on Friday) what had happened with that meaning-of-Ishmael question. The title was "What is the meaning..." and my mind immediately went into meaning-of-a-word mode -- in fact, my first thought was, okay, lets see whether this is on-topic or off-. Then I guess it was just hard to get out of that way of thinking even though I should have realized that he really meant "etymology".

6:39 AM

Anyway, @SethJ, thanks for editing the question.

6:51 AM

is the meaning of the word not the etymology, also doesnt wiki have the etymology of ishmael, i think i remember seeing it.

Cognates of Hebrew Yishma'el existed in various ancient Semitic cultures,[2][broken citation] including early Babylonian and Minæan.[1] It is translated literally as "God has hearkened", suggesting that "a child so named was regarded as the fulfillment of a divine promise

@msh210 "That all depends on what 'means' means."

7:04 AM

@IsaacMoses Yes, Bill.

@DhoweedYaAgov "is the meaning of the word not the etymology": yes, the meaning of a word is not its etymology.

7:33 AM

@msh210 What evidence is there of anyone's female line patriarch back 3000 years? — Double AA 3 mins ago

@msh210 @DoubleAA, I know I'm Jewish because my mom told me so.

@msh210 Me too. And perhaps so did Ali's.

Presumably she did, if she said they were direct descendants from Moses.

@DoubleAA Ali wasn't asking about Ali, he was asking about Muslims in general.

@DoubleAA Again, being a direct descendant doesn't mean you're a female-line descendant.

@msh210 Ok so presumably most Muslims are too based on their traditional ancestry.

@DoubleAA I know of no reason to think that their tradition tells them they're Jewish. The question doesn't indicate as much.

muslim consider Moses as their patriach both biologically and spiritually — Ali 2 mins ago

@msh210 It seems he believes all his ancestors are descendants of Moses.

@msh210 Ok. So proof to me.

If he thinks all his ancestors are Muslim, and all Muslims come from Moses, and Moses married a Jew...then we're set.

7:38 AM

the pashtuns according to their history also claim they are banei yisroayl

and most likely its true

all muslims didnt stem from one parent because there are many muslims. italian chinese martian

@DoubleAA If there's a female line of Jews.

if he wants to say he particular background stems from mosha rabbeinu then ok

but to claim ALL MUSLIMS

@DhoweedYaAgov Ok, so ignore converts

that is not true obviously

It's still alot of people.

7:39 AM

dont muslims claim they are from ishamel

@msh210 Which part of my logical deduction are you disputing?

so are they going against their teachins

@DhoweedYaAgov Don't ask me. I'm just rephrasing what he said.

@DoubleAA can you prove your a jew stemming from one of the 12 tribes?

@Ali is welcome to clarify.

7:40 AM

no one can

@DhoweedYaAgov No. My mom told me so. I believe her.

maybe somewhere along the lines someone intermarried

chas washolom

@DhoweedYaAgov ya check this out : sites.google.com/site/armyofmahdi/israelis

@DhoweedYaAgov Maybe. I agree there is no proof.

@Ali أسبوع الخير

7:40 AM

ok so everyone is jewish end of story

no one can prove anything

next topic

So Halal is Kosher!!

astagfurallah

@DhoweedYaAgov Unless it isn't about proof.

@DoubleAA you are jewish and not jewish at the same time because you cant prove any one to be right

@DhoweedYaAgov Can you prove you are?

7:42 AM

@DoubleAA If all Muslims come from Moses and Moses married a Jew, that doesn't mean all Muslims are Jewish. I don't see how you can say it does: you haven't connected the dots.

this site gives detailed proofs , gets very interesting sites.google.com/site/armyofmahdi/israelis

ali i dont want ot read none sense

5 mins ago, by Double AA

If he thinks all his ancestors are Muslim, and all Muslims come from Moses, and Moses married a Jew...then we're set.

@DoubleAA I saw that. I'm saying we're not set: how does that prove anything?

@msh210 You skipped a premise.

7:43 AM

@DoubleAA Huh?

1 min ago, by msh210

@DoubleAA If all Muslims come from Moses and Moses married a Jew, that doesn't mean all Muslims are Jewish. I don't see how you can say it does: you haven't connected the dots.

if all muslims come from Mosha Rabbeinu chas washolom, then they are banei Mosha from the tribe of leiwi

You skipped the premise that all his ancestors are Muslim.

@DhoweedYaAgov So what? If the pope is catholic I am a unicorn. (That is only true for the next few weeks :) )

@DoubleAA Ah, I see. Well, that doesn't help anyway.

yea...

7:45 AM

@msh210 Why not? What in my deduction are you disputing?

3 mins ago, by Double AA

@DhoweedYaAgov Can you prove you are?

@DoubleAA You haven't connected the dots: show me how that proves all Muslims are Jewish.

thats the entire point, that we are a tribal religion and we keep sources on all converts, and only recently did jews start intermarriage.

@msh210 Well, all his ancestors who are Muslim and hence come from Moses who married a Jew....where did any non-Jew make it into the picture?

also idk what i should take the word muslim as. as a person who submits to HaShem and not of the islamic religion

or a person of islamic religion at the time of Mosha Rabbeinu

because the later wont make sense

@DhoweedYaAgov Leshitatham it's the same.

7:47 AM

no its not

Can Pashtun Tribe of Afghanistan Have Jewish Roots? What DNA Says ?jewishfactsfromportland.blogspot.in/2012/01/…

tehre was no islam at the time of Mosha Rabbeinu

@DoubleAA Ah, I see. Okay. But he never claimed all his ancestors are Muslim (did he?) and it's clearly false.

one cant have all his ancestors be of the islamic religion past the 1400years ago

@msh210 Why is it less likely than all your ancestors being children of the same person Yaakov?

7:48 AM

@DhoweedYaAgov As a concept Islam was always there and this is what we emphasize to this day , that Islam is not founded by prophet Muhammad at all

pbuh

ok ali ty for your imput

@DoubleAA It's not. Not all my ancestors are descendants of Yaakov.

@DoubleAA answer me

@DhoweedYaAgov 42

how are alis relatives all followers of islam if islam only started 1400 years ago

at once point in time they were not followers of islam

7:49 AM

@msh210 Because of Gerim? I don't know your specific case well enough, but I said we would disregard them at the beginning. You can challenge that I suppose as too big a change.

so that is when they were jewish and children of Mosha Rabbeinu

2 mins ago, by Double AA

@DhoweedYaAgov Leshitatham it's the same.

explain how its the same

@DoubleAA I missed that notice, and don't think it a fair one, but even disregarding gerus not all my ancestors are Yaakov's descendants.

@DhoweedYaAgov They think they are following the same religion as Moshe was. What's the question?

7:50 AM

that by logic is false

11 mins ago, by Double AA

@DhoweedYaAgov Ok, so ignore converts

A detailed book on this issue : scribd.com/doc/70360662/… The Muslims who belong to the family of Prophet Yaqoob(Jacob) alayhay salam have a close relation with the Arrival of Imam Mahdi and 2nd coming of Bani Israeli Prophet

@DhoweedYaAgov How so?

because Mosha didnt have quran

@msh210 Who am I forgetting? The Eruv Rav?

7:51 AM

Mosha Rabbeinu

@DhoweedYaAgov sooooo......

@DoubleAA Yitzchak?

therefore they cant be following islam, unless you are calling judaism islam

of that time

so then we are all muslims

...

@DhoweedYaAgov Exactly! That's leshitatham

(@DhoweedYaAgov, you can mark your chat messages as replies to others' messages by hovering over the message you're responding to and clicking on the bent arrow that appears in the bottom-right corner of it. This will make it clear in a multi-threaded conversation what you're responding to, and it will also ping the person you're responding to.)

7:51 AM

ok so we are muslims

Should I say: leshitusum?

no because according to islam were not muslims...

because we dont follow mohammed or the quran or th hadeeth

@msh210 :) Sorry. All your ancestors post-Yaakov are his descendants.

@DhoweedYaAgov I thought according to Islam everyone is Muslim, just doesnt believe he is.

no

you are muslim if you follow mohammed and his "final" message

7:53 AM

@DoubleAA If we disregard gerus then yeah, let's say. (Not sure, of course.)

so we are not muslim according to islam, but according to islamic history we are muslim

@DhoweedYaAgov That just says that Muslims have a way of opting-out (unlike Judaism).

They still think Moshe was following the same religion they are now.

or i can just take RaMbams word and say apikorsum on all of u and done deal

so let them think. christians believe yoshke is mosiahH and so do the meshichists in lubavitch

@DhoweedYaAgov You can also believe that I'm made of bile.

and sabtai tvinkis

so are you muslim double aa?

7:55 AM

@DoubleAA Are you?

@ali are we muslim?

@msh210 I suppose it depends what ~~you mean~~ I meant by made of, but generally speaking I would say no. I contain some bile though.

@DoubleAA en.wiktionary.org/wiki/bile#Noun :-)

we are not only muslim( those who submit to HaShem) but we are also Yahudim(those who praise Hod=praise Yod Kei Wow Kei)

@DhoweedYaAgov I don't think I am. They might. Leshitatham. Doesn't really matter to me though.

7:56 AM

@DhoweedYaAgov I'm a charedi when I have fever.

yea yea joke now, watch this forum get over run by this ali type kids spouting we are muslims

@msh210 Oy. Meanings again.

@msh210 And chardal when you have a hot-dog.

@msh210 Arg I forgot to specify which color bile I'm ~~not~~ made of. Gotta go refresh myself on my Rambam.

@DhoweedYaAgov You have two starred comments linked on the sidebar saying just that. Thanks.

:/

7:58 AM

@DoubleAA Indeed.

@IsaacMoses lol

@IsaacMoses Well it wasn't me, and there's only one other person here who can destar things.

cue me in when i should start saying gaddeesh

@DoubleAA Two: the other mod, and the one who starred them.

@DhoweedYaAgov haystack?

8:00 AM

@IsaacMoses what?

@DhoweedYaAgov gadish = haystack

@msh210 Non mods can destar their own stars? Not after X minutes I believe.

@msh210 Kaddish. It's a ק which is voiced in certain teimani dialects.

@DhoweedYaAgov Sorry. Just being silly.

@DoubleAA Correct, but I don't know what X is.

@DoubleAA I knew. I was merely answering

58 secs ago, by DhoweedYaAgov

@IsaacMoses what?

@msh210 @IsaacMoses Would you like to test that in the sandbox for us?

8:02 AM

The how-did-we-lose-pronunciation-if-we-say-Sh'ma-daily question made me wonder: How did we come to have hard- and soft-covered sifre Tora?

@IsaacMoses its not pronounced gadeesh, its a gluttaral gimmal making it a chreemal.

so its "chr"adeesh

idk how to transliterate a chreemal

@msh210 Same way we have thaf taf and saf.

@DoubleAA Probably not. We have th/t/s because of phonological influence of the languages we lived among. Probably local languages' phonology didn't affect the covers of sifre Tora.

shma is with an ayin not an alaf

so its not shama its Sham3

@DhoweedYaAgov Really? I better get new m'zuzos. :-)

8:06 AM

probably should because your mazuzoth are not made from the material as prescribe in the gemoroh

most likely not*

@msh210 More generally though, we have influences of local customs building up over time. Whether that's materials available, storage opportunities, sounds to say...

@msh210 How did the soft covers come to be blue or red?

@IsaacMoses Ink.

chayas.com/gevil/index_real.html

@DhoweedYaAgov That is not pasul bedieved and you know it.

8:08 AM

@IsaacMoses Not always. Often. Beats me. But hard vs. soft is a more interetsing (to me) question: everyone used one type (soft I assume) and then at some point everyone started using the other type: when? why? how?

שולחן ערוך יו"ד סימן רפח

כתבה על הקלף או על הגויל, כשרה. לא אמרו: דוכסוסטוס, אלא למצוה.

i said change the mazuzoth, i didnt say its posul

@DhoweedYaAgov Why change them? They aren't pasul.

because its original from the gemoroh

You want to be moridh their kedhusha?

8:09 AM

how it was intended to be

@DhoweedYaAgov That's not a reason to change once their up.

@msh210 Particular covering technology may not have been as standardized in the past as it is now.

yidden change their mazuzoth all the time for better ones once they have enough money, same with tafillin

@DhoweedYaAgov I thought you don't prove things from common custom.

i dont, but to have a jew put on proper tafillin how they were supposed to be made

8:10 AM

@IsaacMoses No, but the change must have occurred somehow anyway -- assuming all covers were once soft. You mean maybe there were always both hard and sft covers?

is something to look forward too

@msh210 Storage needs I think is more likely. Where were they keeping it? Were they travelling? What was the weather like?

@DoubleAA Maybe so.

1 min ago, by Double AA

@DhoweedYaAgov That's not a reason to change once their up.

but i also prove things from common customs in teimon though and other specific reigions

:P

8:11 AM

@DhoweedYaAgov Like your Jimmel? That's probably not what Moshe said.

why didnt he say it?

@DhoweedYaAgov It's a fricative not a plosive.

meaning

@DoubleAA Let's face it: probably no one pronounces any Hebrew letter the same way Moshe did. And almost certainly not the entire alphabet.

there is forsure a j sound in loshon arami

lets get that straightened out

8:12 AM

@DhoweedYaAgov Plosive is a sound that stops airflow completely like g k b p t d. Fricative is one that grates the air.

@msh210 Nah to your first statement. Granted the second. That's why I complained about the one I can "prove" him wrong about. There's some others we're not so sure about. Like ק and ש sin.

it could be chreemal and a hard g sound

@DoubleAA even mem - who knows if we say it as Moshe did

and the guf as a soufter g sound

teimonim say meem

@DhoweedYaAgov I was talking about the sound of the letter, not its name

8:14 AM

@msh210 You mean like audio recording? Of course not. That doesn't mean we don't have pretty good guesses for some. We have Egyptian transliterations for instance.

@msh210 I'm saying it wasn't always a matter of Minhag. Yes, at some point, someone invented 'atzei chayim, and someone else invented hard shells, and at some other points, these two technologies were standardized upon.

@IsaacMoses poles may be original judaism.stackexchange.com/q/16783/759

@IsaacMoses Yeah, so who invented hard shells (assuming they're newer) and when and when did they take hold, and why only in Muslim lands?

@msh210 Incidentally, apparently a bunch of hieroglyphic tranliterations use a "ch" (like the English 'such') for ס samech.

i dont mean to interrupt this convo bout pronounciation, but did we get an answer for the original topic we all got in here to discuss?

8:16 AM

@DhoweedYaAgov "And speak of them" (Deut. 6:7) Speak of Jewish life and learning with the people of mi.yodeya.com

@DoubleAA Evidence shmevidence. We have no tradition of people who happen to believe in Islam all being as a result descendants of Moshe. I don't know how anyone could, as belief and descent are two different questions. The claim is dubious on its face and, in the context of our tradition, false. — Isaac Moses 4 mins ago

im speaking ma?

@IsaacMoses Context of our tradition, sure! That's the right answer.

got a rebuttal double aa?

@msh210's answer seemed to be leshitatei to his question.

8:17 AM

@msh210 OK. You have my permission to ask on Mi Yodeya

Wow, it's 2:17 am. I've got to hit the sack. Shavua tov, y'all.

@msh210 You too

lailoh tov

@IsaacMoses Thank you, O Patriarch. Maybe I shall. Not now.

also its 3 18 where it matters :P

8:18 AM

@DhoweedYaAgov You mean 1018?

Where it matters.

i dont think so buddy

@DhoweedYaAgov it's also 1118 in yemen.

yaman isnt important

@DhoweedYaAgov Then you have a skewed perspective.

@DhoweedYaAgov And neither is New York (or other EST)

@DoubleAA why is yaman important?

@DoubleAA i live in ny so its important :D

im not going to lie, im on iphone i got nyc time israel time and yaman time

8:20 AM

@DhoweedYaAgov Meh. Skewed perspective.

@DhoweedYaAgov lol! I guessed it.

@DoubleAA do you even lift?

dont answer that

@DoubleAA but yea you guessed it

@DoubleAA

"in the context of our tradition, false." That is the correct answer to the OP's question. Not this post. – Double AA♦ 1 min ago

so i am assuming our tradition>ali's

since we have precedence?

@DhoweedYaAgov No, because it's the context of this site.

meaning?

@DhoweedYaAgov Answers here are expected to draw from a Jewish perspective. Any other answer would be off topic.

He can ask on Islam.SE if he wants an Islamic perspective.

he can stay there too

8:25 AM

Or Android.SE if he wants their perspective.

@DhoweedYaAgov Whatever he wants.

anyway

lets get that rambam going, the one i wanted to learn before

@DhoweedYaAgov Sorry, I too have to drop out now. It's almost time for Shacharith in Antarctica.

@DoubleAA is a keyword for a place which doesn't matter :P

9:12 AM

?

7 hours later…

4:03 PM

0

Q: Sifre Tora in boxes vs. in cloths

All S'faradi synagogues I've been in have each sefer Tora in a box. All Ashk'nazi ones I've been in have each sefer Tora in a cloth. When did this split occur, and why, and how? I assume either: everyone used cloths (or boxes) and at some point some group started using boxes (or cloths), eithe...

ashkenazi sefer-torah provenance sephardi-mizrachi-eastern

1 hour later…

5:30 PM

@Ali This is all very silly. If you want to know things about Judaism from Mi Yodeya, ask questions in terms of Judaism. If you want to know things in term's of Islam's beliefs, ask on Islam. If you want to argue or convince people of things, go somewhere else.

4

@Ali is gone. Full disclosure: I flagged a post of his in which he stepped over the line in terms of what I consider abusive proselytizing. Apparently, someone with the power to delete based on the flag agreed, the message got deleted, and he consequently got booted.

Welcome, drive-by flag evaluators. :)

5:47 PM

Incidentally, to pre-empt any silly semantic objection to my use of the term "poselytize":

en.wiktionary.org/wiki/proselytize

I don't care if according to some particular Muslim use of the word, there's "no such thing as proselytizing in Islam." If you attempt to use this Jewish Q&A community as a platform for encouraging or inducing Jews to adopt your belief system, a) that is objectionable on its face, and b) it will be extremely difficult for you to keep your questions, answers, comments, and chat messages here from veering into the objectively objectionable, close-able, flag-able, and delete-able.

Finally, for the record, I do not assume, based on the activities of this particular user here, anything about what Islam actually says about anything. I am offended by the actions of this user, in particular.

6:14 PM

Why is the Islam discussion happening here again instead of in the other room?

@SethJ, you around?

Quasi

@SethJ I was about to close this as three different questions, all dupes, when your edit arrived. Your edit makes it much better; do you think the question has merit now?

6:31 PM

@Monica I was trying to preempt another fight over semitic semantics. I see I was too late.

@SethJ alas, we both were. The question as you've edited it is now one coherent question (thanks). I think it's an uninteresting question, but that's what votes are for. (Yeah, his meat isn't kosher, so what? No Jew was eating his meat anyway.) So we can leave it and see what happens. If the comments get out of hand we'll deal with that.

7:14 PM

@SethJ Don't stop there. Finish the coinage: semintics

1 hour later…

8:21 PM

@Ali You're playing a game of Semitic Semantics. — Double AA 3 hours ago

I'm still chuckling :)

@DoubleAA OK, you finish the coinage then :)

So I just read a that, and it's completely mind boggling. Going around in circles and making false
Claims bout the nesher hajodol and our holy torah. I think we should invade the islam stackexchange with jewish questions undermining/proving their religion is wrong, and use semantics so make it even harder to follow. That'll teach them to send stupid trolls over here to bother us.

@DhoweedYaAgov I see no reason to attack anyone else. Nor do I think Ali was sent here by anyone at Islam.SE

3

@DhoweedYaAgov Don't know if you're joking, but DO NOT DO THIS. @DoubleAA's right.

8:37 PM

Yes it was a joke

So the dude is kicked from our forum?

@double aa I still don't see why you questioned rambam over a Muslim

@DhoweedYaAgov I trust the Rambam to tell me about Jewish thought. He's an expert in that.

@DoubleAA @DhoweedYaAgov third base

Maybe your knowledge of islam I'd not the same as his, therefore giving a benefit if a doubt to Muslim, but if the Muslim himself is uneducated in the subject and or is lying, I don't think you have a right to say you believe rambam Is not saying truth bout islam because muslims have diff opinions, when clearly these opinions are either non majority or even false

@DhoweedYaAgov Indeed I am in no position to evaluate Ali's knowledge of Islam.

@IsaacMoses I don't know.

So why go against rambam if you can't vRify Ali's words.

If you can prove Ali's words to be truth n opposite rambam, then you can say rambam might be wrong, but to say of the bat he was wrong, is wrong on your part

8:46 PM

@DhoweedYaAgov I'm not deciding anything.

You stated yesterday that you believed a Muslim bout hid religion more than rambam on islam

Hi all. This question is a train wreck and is founded on several false premises (that Muslims are descended from Moshe, and that that would matter by itself). I am inclined to close and perhaps lock. Thoughts?

Therefore giving Ali n upperhand in the argument

Not yet Monica

@DhoweedYaAgov Ali hasn't had an upperhand in an argument around here in...just about ever.

@DhoweedYaAgov what do you think is its merit? I know you have an answer there so you have a stake in it, but look at all the comment-arguments and, again, the faulty premises of the question.

8:48 PM

Not to mention falsifying some strawman theory on the rambam

@MonicaCellio Train wreck I think it putting it nicely.

@MonicaCellio I support any combination of close, lock, revert, delete

How about plane crash? Nuclear meltdown? Asteroid impact?

@IsaacMoses Though clearly not all in that order.

IDc bout my answer in there, I just wanted to finish typing what I had for double aa

In revert you mean get to the original problem and reargue? I would go for that, but you need to invite muslims in here to argue with us

We can't bicker between ourselves bout something that doesn't really apply to us in our religion

@IsaacMoses I just rolled back to msh210's version, restoring the status quo. Ali has made that edit twice now and been rolled back twice.

8:52 PM

@MonicaCellio Given that, I recommend locking to cap that off

... and that's probably sufficient

@DhoweedYaAgov We are not inviting anybody here for the purpose of having an inter-religious argument on our site. We've been generous enough in hosting a different room for those discussions (but the conversation came back here last night anyway).

@IsaacMoses good idea. Thanks.

So are you saying we should fight in the other room?

@DhoweedYaAgov What in the world is the point of getting into inter-religious fights?

What do you want me to do? LEAVE? Then they'll keep being wrong!

It's fun? :p n it teaches the goyim what we believe and that they are wrong in accusing us in false things in our religion without ever coming to us to confirm of such claims are true

@DhoweedYaAgov I'd rather you not fight here. But if you're going to fight, please do it there, not here and certainly not on the main site. (To be clear: this is my opinion, not having consulted with the other mods, not official policy.)

@DhoweedYaAgov life is too short. Is that how you really want to spend your time?

8:56 PM

Some what yes lol.

I mean the pic says someone is wrong on the Internet, however the ppl on the Internet are wrong irl too. It just flows over to the Internet, therefore fixing the problem with the ppl is the only way to fix the problem in general.

@DhoweedYaAgov I know there are anti-(xtian-)missionary sites out there; I suspect there are analogues for this. I don't think Stack Exchange is the best place for this.

Well you can clearly see Ali came for that

@DhoweedYaAgov The point of the cartoon is that if you think you're going to fix it by bickering, you are playing a loser's game.

The Jews in Europe ie: Italy n other places had disputes over Christianity and judaism all the time. Jews would win but still get persecuted because they would essentially make the king look like an idiot. So their lives were in danger

@DhoweedYaAgov and we're dealing with that within the constraints of the rules here. Unfortunately, nobody ever promised that everybody you meet online would be someone you want to interact with. Remember that one powerful tool users have collectively is the downvote; if you don't think something is appropriate, vote it down and enough votes will drive it out of view.

9:00 PM

Now a days it's not so true anymore, unless you want to argue with terrorists on why they are wrong

A pen is mightier than a sword in this case it's a keyboard

Dialogue can help with some ppl, and with the more
Arrogant and ignorant one will have to pray for them to change

Isn't that why Jews stop proselytizing in the first place? Because they were afraid of the consequences and also false conversions!

?*

Times have changed n we have freedom of religion. How do you think we should spread our light onto the ppl? By sitting home idly?

@DhoweedYaAgov, you want to waster your time on that, go for it. I request that you not do it here, and very strongly so that you not do it on Mi Yodeya.

@DhoweedYaAgov By being good examples. It works wonders.

Merry Time Zone, everyone.

@IsaacMoses what he said.

@IsaacMoses Happy time zone.

That's the thing, I don't see Jews doing the right thing either. That is why one should say not to look at those Jews for they are wrong, take example from that group instead. When goyim are asked what a jew looks like or is, they always think of chareidim in Israel. They are so far apart from judaism that its such a big. Chilling Hashem to even look at them.

Chillul

I have to certainly agree with muslims regarding certain aspects of judaism which were interpreted wrong. Zohar and its influence is a wrong approach to judaism. The lack of science and math and everything else, is a wrong approach to judaism causing many ppl to fall way behind.

What we call ultra ultra orthodox now(community I live in n am a part if if on a daily basis) rambam certainly would call them am aratzim

Or even minim

1 hour later…

10:45 PM

@DhoweedYaAgov If you think any of that is going to change based on your chatting on the internet you are seriously mistaken.

@DoubleAA change by talking ONLY on the internet, obviously not. We need to widen the sources like chabad does, but more intellectually then just mere proselytizing.

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