Ineligible nominations

Marcel

18:26

lol, I got denominated

"democratic elections" :D

Shog9

@Marcel did you get my comment?

I thought those still notified, even after withdrawal.

Happy to see you run, but please do take this at least somewhat seriously.

3

Bit of a slap in the face of the other candidates if you don't.

Not saying you can't have a bit of fun, but please try to keep it at least a small step above "reddit-level".

Marcel

18:42

@Shog9 That's the point of an opposition in a democratic election right? Making others think ... I don't think I would have been elected but who are you to interfere with a democratic process?

Jim

@Marcel .... He's Shog9

Shog9

18:55

@Marcel what democratic process?

I don't recall the "everyone posts meme images and somehow a candidate emerges" part of the democratic process.

So either you want to be a mod, you post your nomination, and folks can vote for you...

...or you don't.

Either way, the choice to be part of the democratic process is yours.

Jim

@Shog9 haven't you been following the current US elections?

Shog9

yeah, we haven't really gotten to the "democratic" bits of those yet either.

Marcel

@Shog9 The whole point of my nomination was to show the obscurity the average active member puts into his/her seriousness in defending a certain policy. Just scroll through this chat or the nomination comments and see how radical most parties fight for their standpoint. However it seems that I somewhat achieved what I wanted, when I even get denominated, showing that "not being in line" is a reason for exclusion

Shog9

@Marcel obscurity? Or absurdity?

Either way. You posted nothing but a link to a meme image.

You could've, for example, written about the absurdity (or obscurity as the case may be) of the process or avg. member.

You could've talked about how your goal as a candidate was to offer a relief from the vitriol that too often infects these things.

You could've playfully illustrated how your attitude differs from the other candidates', with their overwrought pondering or whatever.

But you didn't.

You posted a meme image.

Marcel

@Shog9 That should have been my responsibility how I would achieved that, shouldn't it?

Shog9

19:09

Uh, yeah. That's kinda my point. If you're gonna nominate, it's your responsibility to... y'know... do something useful. Not waste everyone's time.

How you decide to do that, how best you decide to approach it, that's your call... But if you're gonna step up, you can't shirk your responsibility and then pretend it was some meta commentary that should surely be recognized and protected.

Because, it wasn't.

It was a tired meme image from the '90s.

Marcel

@Shog9 And you are to judge what is usefull in that particular case?

Shog9

@Marcel sure.

I mean, in the sense that, if I was responsible for the health dept. in your city, I wouldn't get to say whether you served Indian or Greek food in your restaurant... But if I saw you taking a squat over a patron's table, it would be my responsibility to shut you down.

barrycarter

@Jim Well, @Shog9 just vetoed my nomination, so that puts an end to that.

Marcel

@barrycarter you are not alone here :D

That's what I call a guided democratic election ^^

Jim

@barrycarter did he? Did he at least give you a courtesy comment with a diplomatic explanation as to why?

barrycarter

19:24

@Jim Because I was suspended in the previous year (for complaining about abusive moderation as it turns out).

@Marcel You've got my vote unless SE listens to my appeal.

Marcel

@barrycarter I got denominated too

barrycarter

@Marcel Same reason?

Marcel

@barrycarter wasn't "serious" enough

barrycarter

@Marcel Are you allowed to renominate yourself more seriously?

Marcel

@barrycarter probably. didn't try yet

barrycarter

19:26

@Marcel Oh, in my denomination, I was "humbly requested" to not renominate myself.

Jim

@barrycarter I'm not going to pass judgement on reasoning without access to the full story, but at least that's a much more reasonable explanation than something along the lines of "I disagree with your platform"

barrycarter

@Jim The explanation I received sounded very convoluted as though it were an excuse to reject my nomination based on my platform.

ACuriousMind

For the record:

126

Q: Let's disallow nominations from people who've been suspended in the past year

Well, it's election season again. On sites all over the network, moderators are being selected from among the good folk willing to volunteer their time to help guide and support their communities. I'm proud to be part of a system that governs itself in this manner; for all of its inherent messine...

4

barrycarter

"You can't vote in this election because you protested against the current President"

@ACuriousMind Is that an official statement of policy, or just a suggestion with 126 upvotes?

Jim

@barrycarter that is speculation. We must not let ourselves fall into the habit of only seeing ulterior motives and believing what we speculate. That inhibits our ability to maintain an impartial view and makes us more likely to be hostile/bitter

2

barrycarter

19:30

@Jim That's my current position on the matter. It wasn't intended as a statement of fact.

John Duffield

@barrycarter : seems like there's a bit of a pattern there.

barrycarter

@JohnDuffield John, I can't see which of my messages you're replying to?

@JohnDuffield Oh, John! Hey, good to see you again.

Marcel

This site's structures and opinions are seriously troubling

barrycarter

@Marcel Agreed. Is there an email address for StackExchange the "company" itself?

Shog9

Contact link on every page...

John Duffield

19:33

@barrycarter : click on the little bent arrow to the left of the @ sign.

barrycarter

@JohnDuffield Oh, I did, and I know that's the standard way of doing it, but it didn't work for that one specific message for some reason.

ACuriousMind

@barrycarter "Unless someone can raise a credible objection to this, I plan to start implementing this immediately: the next time someone nominates themselves after having been suspended on any Stack Exchange Q&A site during the past year, we'll quietly withdraw their nomination and send them a message to let them know why. "

barrycarter

@JohnDuffield Never mind, figured it out ;)

Marcel

@barrycarter stackoverflow.com/company/contact

ACuriousMind

So, yes, that is an official statement of policy, if you only read it in its entirety.

Jim

19:34

@Marcel The beatings will continue until morale improves

2

barrycarter

@ACuriousMind Does @Shog9 run the company or something?

Shog9

@barrycarter don't care about your platform, as long as you have one. I explained the reasoning in the message I sent you - feel free to post it verbatim if you wish to discuss it publicly.

Jim

@ACuriousMind it doesn't seem like it was particularly quiet this time

barrycarter

"it has been our past experience that such a record tends to be a
distraction during elections while it remains in recent memory, distracting
others from the candidate's other qualifications and depriving other
candidates of much-needed scrutiny during this critical period. " -- sounds like bullshit to me.

HDE 226868

@barrycarter See meta.stackexchange.com/q/99338/274942

barrycarter

19:37

@HDE226868 Yikes, sounds like my appeal is doomed from the start.

@Marcel Thanks. I actually did see that, but couldn't find a specific email address for whining.

I did once email [email protected] but she ignored it.

Shog9

[email protected] if you can't find the "contact" link.

@barrycarter You could post the full message if you're gonna bother. Kinda left out the critical bits...

barrycarter

Specifically, your nomination in the moderator election that has just
started. According to our records, you've been suspended within the last
year; it has been our past experience that such a record tends to be a
distraction during elections while it remains in recent memory, distracting
others from the candidate's other qualifications and depriving other
candidates of much-needed scrutiny during this critical period.

With this in mind, I've removed your nomination, and humbly request that you

Marcel

we are down from 8 to 4 nominees. who else got denominated?

barrycarter

@Shog9 Is that the community team or is that higher up?

Shog9

@barrycarter how "high" your message goes tends to depend on what you write.

John Duffield

19:42

@barrycarter : OK noted. The moot point here, is that a moderator who isn't dealing adequately with abusive posters etc, can simply suspend the poster who complains in order to eliminate the competition.

@Marcel : me.

barrycarter

@JohnDuffield Yup, gotta love it.

@Shog9 OK, but team@ is an email address that includes you, right? It's not management of StackExchange?

HDE 226868

@Marcel The fourth is knzhou.

Shog9

@barrycarter It's not a mailing list. It's the support email - it goes to the Cogro Ops staff, who dispatch it as appropriate.

John Duffield

@barrycarter : and so this rather interesting event, which had energised physics stack exchange, turns to... sour.

barrycarter

@JohnDuffield They are protecting their turf. I'm surprised they're reacting so vehemently to such a small threat.

Shog9

19:45

nope.

HDE 226868

@barrycarter Can you not make this a "me-vs.-them" issue? It isn't.

5

barrycarter

@HDE226868 Well, us-vs-them, and it absolutely is.

Shog9

There's a script that we run periodically, that checks nominees for suspensions in the past year. If your name comes up, I send you an email and remove your nomination.

John Duffield

@HDE226868 : well let's just have another two eliminated, then we can all vote for the candidate of our choice. Isn't that right @shog9?

Shog9

You might've at least finished reading that email before making stuff up...

Marcel

19:46

@JohnDuffield Why that? I didn't remember anyone besides me and Jim not being "serious"

Shog9

Someone withdrew of their own accord.

barrycarter

@Shog9 You mean the link at the end?

HDE 226868

@barrycarter I'm going to dispute that. Shog pointed out the reason for why your nomination was removed; it's valid.

Shog9

@barrycarter well, the post on the other side of that link.

barrycarter

@HDE226868 But the suspension was for arguing against aggressive moderation.

2

Shog9

19:49

@barrycarter no it wasn't.

John Duffield

Tsk. What a way to run a railroad. What a shambles. We had something good going there, now it's turned to trash. OK, I'm off to continue writing about monopoles. And when I get to my last chapter, well, this little incident cements my opinion.

barrycarter

@Shog9 OK, for satirically arguing against it.

Jim

Can we please move this conversation to another room? This should be a chat room to discuss election related details. While the current topic is somewhat relevant, a discussion about moderation policies on the StackExchange network is not something that actually contributes to the current election process nor it is resolvable here. This would be better suited elsewhere so that we don't drive away those that wish to discuss actual matters of the physics.SE moderator elections

John Duffield

Oh Jim.

Jim

yes?

Shog9

19:50

That's a fair request. Gimme a minute...

John Duffield

Here comes the censorship of the censorship.

3

Jim

nobody is censoring it, just relocating it to be more appropriate

peterh

@Shog9 Btw, do your bosses have something to measure your productivity?

John Duffield

You know, sometimes I think physics stack exchange is physics in a microcosm.

Shog9

← 110 messages moved from 2016 Physics Stack Exchange Election

peterh

19:52

:32585242 I think it is an important question, well maybe I don't know too many from your visions and ideas, but it seems to me as if you would actively work to cement small circles ruling entire SE sites and working actively to make it hostile.

Shog9

← 1 message moved from 2016 Physics Stack Exchange Election

Marcel

and here we are. in our little world where we can rebel and noone hears us

Jim

I hear you. And I care about you

barrycarter

Yup, silence the protestors.

Marcel

this is pretty hilarous acutally :D

John Duffield

19:56

It's a shambles.

barrycarter

I know. Massive repercussions for something so trivial.

Marcel

next thing that happens is to get banned from this chat because posts are too meta and don't concern a particular demonation :D

barrycarter

They're either really scared or really paranoid.

Marcel

is there a subreddit on which this could go viral?

Jim

look, it was just about clutter. Interpret it how you want, but I've never been one to censor people. I just think everything has a place and function.

no ulterior motive

Marcel

19:57

:D

Jim

personally, I didn't like the reasoning given for de-nominating barrycarter

John Duffield

@Jim : pull the other one Jim.

Shog9

@Marcel ...y'know, you could just write something in your nomination and un-withdraw it.

Jim

but I see the spirit behind it and I like the spirit. I'm just unsure how to harmonize the spirit with the practice.

Shog9

I mean, you've already written more in this thread about what you see needing to be addressed on the site than would fit in a nomination.

A "Marcel Cliff Notes" version would make an adequate post.

Really, just something more relevant than a link to imgur

I can't help but feel like you're more interested in Raging Against The Machine than in fixing it.

barrycarter

20:00

reddit.com/r/stackexchange

reddit.com/r/stackexchangesucks exists, but is empty.

reddit.com/r/programmerchat/comments/38pggs/… but don't know if he's still answering

John Duffield

@Jim : the practice of the poor moderator who doesn't deal with abuse is to suspend the guy who complains. Then he can't be a moderator. Hey presto, how to get rid of the competition.

ACuriousMind

@barrycarter Jeff Atwood is no longer directly affiliated with the SE network, see e.g. meta.stackexchange.com/q/121595/263383.

barrycarter

@ACuriousMind He may still have influence. Just brainstorming at the moment.

Jim

@JohnDuffield that's an example of abuse of privileges, not a common occurrence. Also, mod elections are so infrequent that it doesn't make sense for mods to have that sort of motivation

furthermore, that's speculation. You don't know that anyone has that motive, nor should you act as though that is 100% the case

barrycarter

20:16

@Jim As you point out, elections are infrequent. By banning me from this one, you've effectively silenced me for a much longer period of time.

Shog9

cough

Marcel

@Shog9 do we need another chatroom?

Shog9

You want the proverbial "bully pulpit" it seems

barrycarter

Ultimately, Stack Exchange is a company that has its own method of making decisions, and I respect that. All I can do is make sure that they know what's going on.

Shog9

Maybe start simple, with some constructive posts on Meta

You know, the non-hyperbolic sort that raise specific issues that folks can have considered opinions on and implement solutions to

then move on to the more intractable ones that'd require moderator involvement to have any hope of resolution

and then, if nothing happens, you can say, "if I were mod, I would solve this"

and folks could believe you, because you'd actually established a history of knowing things and solving problems

barrycarter

20:20

@Shog9 That's one approach. Another is to see how the company itself feels about these elections. In the USA, people have run for President from prison. Banning candidates seems like a great danger to democracy.

Shog9

@barrycarter has anyone ever actually won from prison? Or gotten even a single electoral vote?

Did their efforts accomplish... anything substantive?

barrycarter

Eugene V. Debs

Eugene Victor "Gene" Debs (November 5, 1855 – October 20, 1926) was an American union leader, one of the founding members of the Industrial Workers of the World (IWW or the Wobblies), and five times the candidate of the Socialist Party of America for President of the United States. Through his presidential candidacies, as well as his work with labor movements, Debs eventually became one of the best-known socialists living in the United States. Early in his political career, Debs was a member of the Democratic Party. He was elected as a Democrat to the Indiana General Assembly in 1884. After working...

Jim

@barrycarter yes, if I had my way, I'd find a way of allowing you to run. But I recognize that on some sites (not necessarily ours) people might focus on the fact that you were suspended, which would unfairly bias people against you but also make the problems of other candidates seem less. I think de-nominating you was a bit harsh here, but I can't say whether or not it is necessary as a general network policy

Shog9

I mean, if your point here is that you were running merely for your own personal education, as a way to gain experience that would otherwise be unavailable to you from your metaphorical "prison"... That's fair.

barrycarter

I'll let you decide if Debs accomplished anything. My point to SE is: if you want democracy, don't let the existing office holders disallow candidates.

Jim

20:23

that also said, mods don't make policy, just enforce it. They are more like police and judges than governors

Shog9

@barrycarter fascinating... But you realize, he was quite an accomplished activist prior to being imprisoned much less running.

He could run on his record, not on the fact that he was unpopular with the establishment.

barrycarter

@Jim Right, and physics.SE isn't doing that. The moderators are not following policy.

Shog9

IOW, he built support, built a reputation...

It's a good technique.

I recommend it.

barrycarter

@Shog9 I wasn't super active but I have argued the issue and even gotten suspended for it :)

@Shog9 Because it takes time and keeps me out of this election. I want to get on the ballot and I don't have much time to do that.

Shog9

@barrycarter ok... If you're gonna keep talking about your suspension you should probably be up-front about what you were actually suspended for.

@barrycarter you have a year, at least.

that's the whole point of this

barrycarter

20:26

A satirical article about physics.SE moderation.

Shog9

nope

barrycarter

Then what?

Shog9

@barrycarter have you lost the message you were sent?

barrycarter

Let me re-find it

Shog9

it's ID #705 if that helps

barrycarter

20:27

It's the "snarky meta question" that got me suspended.

John Duffield

@barrycarter : LOL, if there was another election coming up, you'd find yourself getting a suspension on some trumped-up charge. Don't you get it? Only approved candidates can run in these elections.

Shog9

@barrycarter well, that and...

barrycarter

@Shog9 The others were contributing factors (though very much related), not the primary factor.

0celo7

@barrycarter You were suspended?

I guess that's why we haven't talked in...months.

barrycarter

@JohnDuffield Oh I get it all right :) What's weird to me is why someone as high as @Shog9 is concerned about lil ole me :)

Shog9

20:29

@barrycarter so, what did Ana ask you to do?

barrycarter

Come on
> back when you're calmer and feel you can participate without lashing out
> at others.

0celo7

Shog9 is a populist, clearly

Shog9

did you?

0celo7

He cares about the people

barrycarter

@0celo7 I like that excuse, but I was only suspended for a week. I spent the rest of the time calming down.

0celo7

20:30

so you've been avoiding me

Shog9

I don't see a single meta post from you since the suspension

0celo7

I see how it is

Shog9

Hence my advice above

barrycarter

@Shog9 Well, I guess not.

Shog9

You wanna build a record of efficacy

that's how you change things

Marcel

20:30

Gooble Gobble One Of Us!

►

barrycarter

@0celo7 LOL! I went to quora for a long time because I was so unhappy with SE.

Shog9

If you're gonna be hated by the establishment, be hated for being right

not for being annoying

barrycarter

It seems almost surreal to me that anyone is doing anything about my election except ignoring it.

0celo7

@Shog9 I'm hated for being annoying and right. Does that count?

Annoying about being right.

Shog9

eh, I was the one who pushed for that rule to be put in place... If I don't enforce it, that's kinda hypocritical, no?

@0celo7 yeah, sure, that works too

John Duffield

20:34

0celo7 : I trust you're looking forward to the election!

barrycarter

@JohnDuffield Didn't Brexit already happen?

Marcel

@JohnDuffield Is that the real ballot?

John Duffield

@barrycarter : yes. Look at the picture again. There's only one box.

barrycarter

@JohnDuffield Ah, humor :)

John Duffield

@Marcel : yes, but I cropped the image.

barrycarter

20:37

Very apropos

barrycarter

20:50

Is Stack Exchange one word or two?

Dear StackExchange,

My apologies for contacting you in this manner, as I was unable to
find more appropriate way to contact you.

StackExchange's Physics site is currently holding elections, but at
least 3 candidates with similar views have been involuntarily removed
from the ballot for various reasons. While these removals may be
technically justifiable, I believe it poisons the elections process,
and prevents the majority will of physics.stackexchange.com users (for
less aggressive moderation) to be heard.

About to fax that to SE.

Marcel

@barrycarter cool

Shog9

two words.

also... fax?

barrycarter

@Shog9 Do you have another suggestion?

Shog9

email?
phone call?
registered mail?

I can pretty much guarantee the only one that's likely to get read by anyone who cares is email

barrycarter

Do you have their email? I might do a followup phone call. Registered mail is overkill. I expect to lose.

Shog9

20:58

then... Maybe invest more effort in the content of your missive and less on the delivery method

[email protected] or the contact link are both cheap and easy

barrycarter

@Shog9 But that doesn't reach SE management, right?

Shog9

where your message goes from there depends entirely on the content, which is going to be true for any venue

barrycarter

@Shog9 You think the content is poor?

Shog9

what outcome do you desire?

barrycarter

@Shog9 Desire: that the management team will take direct action.

Also sent to [email protected] now

Shog9

21:01

@barrycarter ...to the effect of...?

barrycarter

@Shog9 Hmm, I should've put that in the letter, huh? Re-instating the 3 disqualified candidates.

And I didn't even specify I was one of them. You're right, that was a terrible letter.

Shog9

@barrycarter so, where's your argument for why this should be done?

you say the process isn't working well, but you don't elaborate on that

barrycarter

@Shog9 The argument is that elections should be fair and anyone should be allowed to run.

John Duffield

@barrycarter : forget about writing to stack exchange. Use your time to put it up on another website somewhere.

Shog9

you're trying to contact folks who very likely know almost nothing about the site, and yet you're not providing them with enough information to make a decision... Much less the decision you wish them to make.

barrycarter

21:04

@JohnDuffield Putting up a website is easy. Getting people to come to it is the hard part.

John Duffield

@barrycarter : you can maybe recruit a few helpers.

barrycarter

@Shog9 Man, I wish I'd listened to you before sending the fax. Sending a second one now wouldn't work well.

@JohnDuffield I already have plans for a better Q and A site: github.com/barrycarter/bcapps/blob/master/QUORA/…

John Duffield

@barrycarter : don't bother listening to Shog. You think he's going to help you with this?

barrycarter

@JohnDuffield How many people can you draw in? :) You're semi-famous.

@JohnDuffield Oh, I know, but I actually could've written that letter better.

John Duffield

@barrycarter : I'm not semi-famous. And I can't speak for other people.

Danu

21:06

@Marcel It is :)

barrycarter

@JohnDuffield I see people start sites like this all the time, but no one knows they exist, so they get no traffic.

Shog9

running a Q&A site is actually a bit harder than it looks in many ways. You might want to research the last site that broke off from this one, since they've had a few hard lessons along the way too.

barrycarter

@Shog9 I'm still going to say the MAIN challenge is marketing, not programming.

Shog9

"marketing", sure. The sort of marketing where you convince people they need the soap you're selling, but also the sort of marketing where you have to find people who'll actually still believe they want soap after trying yours.

John Duffield

@barrycarter : this is what you're up against, sneering and gloating from somebody who's name is blue, who will give you a suspension if you say a word against him.

barrycarter

21:10

I'm not sure I follow the 2nd part of that. People need and want Q + A sites. But the sites work best when there are plenty of people on them.

Shog9

@barrycarter naw, people want answers to their questions. Some folks want to answer some questions from some people. A Q&A site is just a means to an end, but only if it matches up the right folks in group A with the right folks in group B.

barrycarter

@JohnDuffield It's Quixotic. Plus, I get to say "I took it all the way to the top and they ignored/disagreed with me"

@Shog9 Yes, that's part of creating the perfect Q+A site. Letting answerers filter for what questions they want to answer.

Shog9

that's half of it...

barrycarter

What's the other half?

Shog9

you have to get the folks asking questions to play nice with the filters

barrycarter

21:13

True. But I sense most people would.

Shog9

You might be surprised

barrycarter

Not everyone, of course. There will be abuse.

Shog9

so you need a way to combat abuse

and then you need a way to combat abuse of whatever you put in place to combat the first abuse

...possibly a way to combat abuse of that second thing too

barrycarter

Correct. Some sort of reputation system like Stack has should work.

I'm not overly concerned with the recursiveness here.

A good user verification system should help too.

Shog9

An essay on d00dism and the MMORPG

barrycarter

21:16

My ideal site wouldn't really gamify that much.

Shog9

"gamify" is one of those terms that folks use to make what they're doing sound novel

but any system that can be "gamed" will be

barrycarter

No, I took it directly from conversations here on SE

Shog9

hey, I like to make what I'm doing sound novel too

barrycarter

SE gamifies. I'm saying I won't.

Shog9

got a meeting on gamification tomorrow in fact

barrycarter

21:19

Again, this is highly hypothetical. I'd rather improve SE than create my own site because I just don't feel it would be popular enough.

Shog9

well, please... do so

barrycarter

Another option is to steal questions from stackexchange.com and quora.com and start adding filters, but there are probably legal issues.

@Shog9 And thus, I have faxed in hope of running in hope of helping.

Shog9

@barrycarter you don't need to wait on others to have an influence

barrycarter

@Shog9 The path you're suggesting is long and tedious and means that abusive moderation can continue for a long time

Shog9

sure. You want something quick and dramatic.

barrycarter

21:22

It's a delay tactic.

Shog9

meh

barrycarter

I want something quick and effective.

Danu

@Shog9 delay tactics

barrycarter

This has already been a problem for ages, I don't want to wait even longer.

Shog9

If you want to disrupt people, quick is essential. If you want to change them, you need patience.

Danu

21:23

It's almost a contradictio in terminis

barrycarter

Disruption can sometimes bring about change.

Got my form letter reply from [email protected] sigh

Shog9

oh?

that was quick

barrycarter

I suspect I know who wrote it :)

Shog9

well, it wasn't me

if you got it that quickly, I'd guess one of the Ops staff

Danu

So what'd they say barry? :P

barrycarter

21:29

I'm not sure if you've read the moderator message that was sent to you, but
it clearly identifies why your nomination post was removed and you should
definitely read it if you haven't. If you have, then there's really nothing
else to say here. The requirement was put into place for a reason. It will
not be reconsidered and your nomination post will no be reinstated.

Interestingly, no mention is made of the other 2 candidates in my letter.

It's almost like someone is reading this chat and responding to it instead of my letter :)

Danu

Lol

Transcript for

Ineligible nominations