Deep calleth unto deep

Roland Taylor

18:44

Okay now we can continue our discussion :P

jrg

Well, what is this doing here?

Roland Taylor

Without clogging up the general room.

George Edison

Hello.

msPeachy

i think we're all in here anyway

jrg

Ok, we're here.

start talking roland. ;)

Roland Taylor

18:45

So first topic was,

jrg

I SAID TALK. TYPE FASTER

2

Roland Taylor

The Pope.

George Edison

What about him?

jrg

the pope and his wonderful hat, complete with fold-down cross.

the gif in question

Roland Taylor

Wrong pope :D

msPeachy

18:46

should we really be talking about the pope?

Roland Taylor

@msPeachy idk

George Edison

I still don't see why the Vatican City gets its own TLD, but anyway...

jrg

@msPeachy interesting debate

Roland Taylor

I just wanted to discuss your "question" (well not really a question) - but you said "you didn't tell me that"

jrg

@GeorgeEdison Yeah, I wondered that too, but whatever. They are the Vatican, they can have it.

Roland Taylor

18:47

So I wanted to explain

msPeachy

if you don't believe in the idea of a "pope" then why are we going to talk about it?

jrg

he's going to explain why he doesn't believe in it

msPeachy

@RolandTaylor oh okay...go...

Roland Taylor

@msPeachy well I believe that it's not a Biblical position but rather a Roman position (the title is Roman in origin). It was originally a political title for the leader of Rome.

I don't mean to offend you btw.

George Edison

And I agree.

(For what it's worth... which is probably not much.)

jrg

18:50

it's like there can't be apostles anymore, because nobody meets the requirements.

msPeachy

@RolandTaylor I agree with it as a political position in the past, but I don't think that it is te same as now.

Roland Taylor

@jrg well that one isn't true

there can be

msPeachy

@RolandTaylor i'm not offended

Roland Taylor

@msPeachy whew

jrg

@RolandTaylor Not until Christs second coming.

Roland Taylor

18:51

@jrg I can show you otherwise from the Bible :P

msPeachy

@jrg are you a catholic?

@RolandTaylor :)

jrg

@RolandTaylor Start quoting. :)

Roland Taylor

actually by definition, we are all Apostles (if you want to be technical)

jrg

@msPeachy Nope. Presbyterian.

Roland Taylor

Apostle means "sent one"

in a nutshell

Anyway let me fire up Xiphos and get some scriptures for you

George Edison

18:52

(Sorry, had to edit that - nutshell is one word :P)

Roland Taylor

@GeorgeEdison xD

George Edison

(Yeah, it's a slow day.)

2

jrg

> Acts 1:21, 22 "Therefore, of these men who have accompanied us all the time that the Lord Jesus went in and out among us, beginning from the baptism of John to that day when He was taken up from us, one of these must become a witness with us of His resurrection."

George Edison

(I love enclosing my conversations in brackets.)

Roland Taylor

@jrg those were required for the 12

Number of government

jrg

18:53

@GeorgeEdison (So do I. Makes me feel like I'm whispering, which makes me feel important)

Roland Taylor

Paul was not among the 12, yet he was an Apostle

msPeachy

@jrg had to Google it

jrg

@RolandTaylor And those were the only "apostles".

he's an "apostle", not an "Apostle".

Roland Taylor

@jrg so Paul was... an imposter O_o?

@jrg LOL

George Edison

@jrg What's... the difference?

(Besides the change of case.)

Roland Taylor

18:54

Acts 14:14
14 But when the apostles, Barnabas and Paul, heard of it, they tore their clothes, and sprang into the multitude, crying out,

jrg

@RolandTaylor You're missing the point - we(from my point of view) have "The Angel of the Lord", which is a pre-incarnate Christ, and we have "a angel of the lord", which is just an angel.

Roland Taylor

@jrg we understand that the Angel of the Lord was Jesus in preincarnate form - but there was always a distinction (apart from change of case - there is no case in Hebrew) for normal angels

jrg

One of the Biblical requirements for one to be rightly regarded as an apostle were those following Jesus from the time of John’s baptism. They also were to have seen the risen Lord be witnesses of his resurrection.

msPeachy

now we're talking Angels???

Roland Taylor

it's sad that people try to use the English translations to determine the original

Not that all English translations are off... some are pretty accurate - but let's not forget we will need to dig deeper to make sense of things

msPeachy

18:57

this could take all day

Roland Taylor

@msPeachy haha not exactly :D

jrg

I don't have my bible handy, otherwise I'd be looking at how exactly Paul is mentioned

George Edison

sudo apt-get install xiphos

Roland Taylor

@jrg actually that was for the 12 as I've said

The 12 were part of a council, just like you had the Sanhedrin

msPeachy

@GeorgeEdison why do we need a xiphos?

George Edison

18:58

It's a Bible study program.

That comment was intended for @jrg.

jrg

@RolandTaylor found my bible, let me look stuff up.

Roland Taylor

Being an Apostle is a calling/position just like being a Pastor, a Prophet, a Teacher, and Evangelist, or a cutie pie like @msPeachy :P (jk with the last one)

msPeachy

it's a sword!

jrg

I'd install xiphos, but apt is being screwy on q

Roland Taylor

@jrg what's the translation btw?

@msPeachy ya

jrg

18:59

@RolandTaylor new kings james

Roland Taylor

@msPeachy You know the Greek word off hand O_o?

@jrg okay I think I have that

BTW - I compare translation against translation and use a concordance - so you can't get away with me :D

jrg

i don't have my concordance, it's packed in the box of books i don't use very often upstairs. :\

Roland Taylor

@jrg oh

msPeachy

@RolandTaylor lol, I wish! No, I used my best buddy in the Internet, Google

Roland Taylor

Xiphos has one built in

@msPeachy lol

George Edison

19:01

@jrg Who needs a concordance with computers these days anyway?

jrg

@GeorgeEdison troll. ;P

George Edison

But it's true.

Roland Taylor

:P

jrg

well, yes.

George Edison

And honestly, who needs to lug around 5 pounds of paper so that they can find every instance of the word "and"?

Roland Taylor

19:02

@GeorgeEdison rofl

msPeachy

so, it is not a good idea to talk about the pope

Roland Taylor

@msPeachy lol you mean because this discussion resulted or, just in general?

msPeachy

cos no one's gonna convince anybody anyway

and yes we ended up in concordance

Roland Taylor

@msPeachy that's the job of the Holy Spirit, and the person's choice

msPeachy

it is, and I think each one of us has already made our choices

Roland Taylor

19:09

However, I would warn anyone going off of manmade ideas to remember the warning in the Book of Hebrews not to resist the Holy Spirit as the children of Israel did in the wilderness

@msPeachy this will sound offensive:

Could some of have made limiting choices?

puts on his armour suit

you may all throw rocks and tomatoes at me now :D

msPeachy

@RolandTaylor I meant at this moment in our lives, we've all made our choices when it comes to our faith, and what we believe in. It might change in the future but I doubt it.

Roland Taylor

@msPeachy to me it boils down to this:

msPeachy

@RolandTaylor lol, I don't throw tomatoes, I eat them

Roland Taylor

We are all saved by Grace (Jesus) through faith - or not saved at all.

Once saved however, we can bring ourselves into bondage (see the Book of Galatians) and miss the abundance of life that Jesus died and rose so we could enjoy

I know why I say that btw - I was raised in what amounts to a cult

it was a church - but it was so blinded

led by the teachings of one man

jrg

@RolandTaylor Paul saw the resurrected christ. 1 Cor.15:8

Roland Taylor

19:13

when our church finally saw the light back then - many people were so mad - they left - and went back to bondage

@jrg so then what about (for example) Muslims who have seen Jesus appear in visions (in our modern day)

By your criteria - they are Apostles automatically

msPeachy

@RolandTaylor really? who is this man?

Roland Taylor

Also, by your criteria from earlier, which IIRC stated that they must have seen Jesus before and after his Resurrection - then Paul still isn't one.

@msPeachy Herbert Armstrong

jrg

@RolandTaylor I refute those - I think that visions are on the same plane as miracles in that they don't happen often. The frequency in which the Muslims claim that leads me to believe it could be the devil, or just an overactive imagination.

Roland Taylor

@jrg ???

That's ridiculous.

I've seen miracles with my own two eyes happen to myself too often in my life with the correspondence of prayer sometimes by others, and I've also experienced legitimate visions from God including things that came to past.

I won't say I'm offended but you stepped over the line with that one bro.

That might be the position of your church but it's really just man made ideas that can't be backed up.

msPeachy

I'm too sleepy now, need to go to school tomorrow. Good night.
Enjoy the rest of the day.

jrg

19:21

> For Jews demand signs and Greeks seek wisdom.

msPeachy

bye all

jrg

@msPeachy ok, cya!

Roland Taylor

@msPeachy bye Kumquat

@jrg so then God doesn't work miracles anymore?

He has changed?

jrg

@RolandTaylor I'm not saying they don't happen. I'm saying that by the very definition of a miracle/vision, it is rare.

Roland Taylor

So God no longer does them often.

So God has changed.

jrg

19:22

God never did them often, except during Christs time on earth.

(sorry for the double ping. I hate typos like that)

George Edison

Whew... finally answered that guy on G+.

jrg

@GeorgeEdison about nitroshare?

George Edison

No, no - about theistic evolution.

NitroShare would be off-topic here.

:)

jrg

i see. ;D

I think I offended roland.

Roland Taylor

@jrg sorry for the long time between replies I went afk

@GeorgeEdison whew

jrg

19:30

@RolandTaylor You had me worried there. ;P

Roland Taylor

I didn't want to be harsh on him

I was pretty ticked off when I saw him lol

jrg

who, me?

or someone else?

Roland Taylor

I'm a bit of Peter at times

@jrg a guy on G+

jrg

@RolandTaylor oh.

Roland Taylor

@jrg you didn't offend me - the blinding teachings of men did.

jrg

19:31

@RolandTaylor I'm not sure how to interpret this.

Roland Taylor

I have a passion to see people freed from the same kind of bondage that kept me blinded in my youth.

I was like you that way.

jrg

who are we talking about? Me or the dude on G+?

Roland Taylor

Then I had an awakening to the fact that just because someone can write something on paper, wear a suit, and put it over eloquently, doesn't give them the right to override God.

jrg

is so confused

Roland Taylor

@jrg not you specifically, but the reason why you said what you said.

jrg

19:32

@RolandTaylor I came to that conclusion myself.

Roland Taylor

@jrg my love for my brother will never change - not because of me but because of the Spirit within me - and that's not a cliche.

However, because of that, I'm tough on doctrinal crime.

brb ~20mins

jrg

ok

Paul documents that his apostleship was by divine appointment in Galatians 1.

and there are three requirements. first, an apostle had to have seen the Lord and been an eyewitness of Christ’s resurrection (See my note about Paul on how he "gets around this"), an apostle had to be specifically selected by the Lord or the Holy Spirit (true for the 12 and Paul), then finally an apostle was given miraculous power to the extent that he could perform miracles.

Paul saw the Lord, he talks about that in Galatians.

However, while I'm saying that I think it's unlikely, I think the Lord will do what he will do. However, until then, I don't think there are modern day apostles.

Anyway, i've gotta go. Grandparents just showed up.

Roland Taylor

21:21

@jrg it is not for you to say "until then" - because others have claimed to have seen the Lord, and if they did who are you to say they didn't?

jrg

@RolandTaylor Those who claim to be apostles take on a very serious charge - once that I am very suspicious of, because of those who have claimed such things and are really wolves in sheeps clothing.

Roland Taylor

Also, all believers are given power to perform miracles... (Jesus said it himself - Luke 10:19), this is also mentioned numerous times in the Bible

@jrg yes, there will always be liars.

But that doesn't mean that we must shut out the true ones.

jrg

> I have given you authority to trample on snakes and scorpions and to overcome all the power of the enemy; nothing will harm you.

Roland Taylor

"By their fruit you shall know them"

mateo_salta

"Watch out for false prophets. They come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ferocious wolves."

jrg

21:23

I don't see a commission to perform miracles.

Roland Taylor

@jrg that was said to 70

@jrg hold on I'll give you another one - since that is clearly not miraculous to you (also I may have quoted the wrong one)

jrg

@RolandTaylor In his presence.

Roland Taylor

@jrg so He cannot be present today?

Mark 16:17

17 These signs will accompany those who believe: in my name they will cast out demons; they will speak with new languages;
18 they will take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it will in no way hurt them; they will lay hands on the sick, and they will recover.”

This was said to 500

Not only the 12.

So then, how come those 500 are not called Apostles?

Also, when miracles are performed today, are they of the devil?

Because then I, who have experienced miracles, even at my own hand - am of the devil

jrg

Lets define what we mean by "apostle" first, since I think we're agreeing inside but differing in our terminology.

Roland Taylor

I have given what Apostle means already.

"sent one"

11 He gave some to be apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, shepherds*n2 and teachers;
12 for the perfecting of the saints, to the work of serving, to the building up of the body of Christ;
13 until we all attain to the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to a full grown man, to the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ;
14 that we may no longer be children, tossed back and forth and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the trickery of men, in craftiness, after the wiles of error;

^Ephesians 4:11->

jrg

21:31

When I say apostle, I mean the 12. The 500/70 you are referring to are apostles in that they are "messengers" (to use the meaing of the greek). The 12 that I refer to when I say "apostles" are those who meet the three requirements i laid out above - namely, having seen the Lord and been an eyewitness of Christ's resurrection, special election and miraculous power to perform miracles.

Roland Taylor

(That btw, is not for definition)

jrg

also, when you look at Acts 1:21, you see the qualifications defined clearly to be an "apostle" (as opposed to a messenger) - bible.cc/acts/1-21.htm

Roland Taylor

@jrg man that's confusing...

jrg

> Therefore it is necessary to choose one of the men who have been with us the whole time the Lord Jesus went in and out among us,

Roland Taylor

you know why? because Paul was an Apostle

jrg

21:33

@RolandTaylor Welcome to theology, where the greek means one thing and the english means something else.

Roland Taylor

and he even met with the council in Jerusalem

@jrg oh I'm familiar with that.

What I'm not fond of - is man-tainted-doctrine.

Especially the kind that tries to box God into our places of comfort.

jrg

Notice the past tense though in Hebrew 2:3-4: "How shall we escape if we neglect such a great salvation? It was declared at first by the Lord, and it was attested to us by those who heard, while God also bore witness by signs and wonders and various miracles and by gifts of the Holy Spirit distributed according to his will."

Roland Taylor

Like "Miracles don't happen, or they do - but only rarely" - which translates to "Everyone who does miracles is essentially demonic", and "the gifts of the spirit have passed away" - so people who speak in tongues (I personally don't, but have at least once), those who prophesy (I have, and accurately), those who perform healing miracles (I have), etc... are all of the devil... because "some group of men say so"

jrg

@RolandTaylor by its definition, a miracle is exactly that - a miracle/wonder.

Roland Taylor

@jrg so... wait... what does the tense have to do with this?

Of course, God bore witness with signs and wonders. That never said he stopped.

mateo_salta

21:38

I believe miracles happen. But the people on tv waving snakes around asking for your money... something is wrong there.

jrg

There is no one person who has the gift of healing - yes, miraculous healings happen, but they are now in gods hands, and are to be lifted up in prayer.

Roland Taylor

@mateo_salta that's just being ridiculous

@jrg God has given gifts to some

Sigh I have to go look for ANOTHER SCRIPTURE

The Holy Spirit gives gifts to people and some have the gift of healing

it is God's power, but it's the person's right to exercise it

For example, with prophecy - the spirit of the prophet is subject to the prophet

jrg

Show me someone who has seen the risen Christ and has learned the Gospel from direct revelation.

Roland Taylor

@jrg go to youtube and look for a muslim who has seen Christ in a vision and you will find many

It happens... just mostly in parts of the world where people are not bound by limiting doctrines of men.

Like, no offence... where you are.

jrg

@RolandTaylor Did they receive the gospel via direct revelation?

Roland Taylor

21:43

@jrg yes

some of them had no Bible

but Jesus appeared to them and spoke directly to them about how to be saved

no missionaries could reach them

yet Jesus gave them the Gospel

mateo_salta

hey, I'm not making this up

►

Roland Taylor

so that there would be some people out there to reach their people

George Edison

@RolandTaylor I know such a person.

jrg

@RolandTaylor For those who perform miracles - whos power did they talk about?

Roland Taylor

@mateo_salta bringing up ridiculous cases is ridiculous aka trolling.

George Edison

21:44

(Not personally, of course.)

Roland Taylor

@jrg God's.

@jrg I think you know me well enough to know that I believe the power belongs to God.

jrg

@RolandTaylor I know you well enough, but I also know you well enough to think you smoke crack once or twice a month. ;)

Roland Taylor

But.... even if I addressed the power as mine or someone else did (which they shouldn't) - they could be personal because the power is a gift from God to them.

mateo_salta

so you think it is ridiculous that they are doing miracles, or say they are preforming miracles?

jrg

(i'm joking of course)

Roland Taylor

21:45

No one goes around saying "your car that you gave me"

mateo_salta

I am completely serious

Roland Taylor

Of course for sake of weak minds we have to be careful to properly address God's power but you should be able to get my point (I sincerely hope).

jrg

@mateo_salta I'm not sure I understand your quesiton exactly.

Roland Taylor

@mateo_salta I'm lost...

mateo_salta

roland said my example was a ridiculous case

jrg

21:47

Look through redemptive history and you see that miracles outside of Christs time on earth and shortly thereafter are almost nonexistent. You'll have 50, 60, 70, 100+ years go by without a miracle.

Roland Taylor

brb

jrg

I've gotta go, family thing going on.

Before I go, let me rephrase the above statement: There are three periods - Moses & Joshua, Elijah & Elisha, Christ and the apostles. Outside of that, there is nothing. In the thousands of years of history there, there's at most what, 300 years there?

There is samson, but he did one thing.

mateo_salta

I'm trying to say there is a difference between "It's a miracle you didn't die, thank the Lord" and quoting that verse then putting your hand by a deadly snakes mouth, and drinking poison expecting not to die.

jrg

@mateo_salta Oh, yes. Totally. We indeed are entirely dependent upon the lord for our continued existence on earth.

George Edison

@mateo_salta Yes... but I wouldn't recommend doing that.

Roland Taylor

21:54

@jrg there is Law and Grace. That's it.

mateo_salta

so I'll leave you with this Matthew 4:6-7

6 “If you are the Son of God,” he said, “throw yourself down. For it is written:

“‘He will command his angels concerning you,
and they will lift you up in their hands,
so that you will not strike your foot against a stone.’[c]”

7 Jesus answered him, “It is also written: ‘Do not put the Lord your God to the test.’”

latter all

Roland Taylor

@mateo_salta are you a Christian?

mateo_salta

yes

Roland Taylor

Then I'm even more confused.

mateo_salta

why?

Roland Taylor

21:58

You seem to be more trying to do what the atheists do...

mateo_salta

what do atheists do...

Roland Taylor

I mean you dropped in and started poking at me

with stuff that is clearly nonsense as if it has something to do with me

mateo_salta

not at you, I'm trying to caution that some are doing false miracles, no nonsense.

Roland Taylor

of course some are

but we know that what we are getting at is real miracles

mateo_salta

22:14

well later, gtg. sorry if my way of getting a point across was a bit harsh.

Transcript for

Deep calleth unto deep