TeX, LaTeX and Friends

5:33 AM

[12/16, 02:39/04:56] auto-install: latex-base-dev (51730) [13367k] ... done
[13/16, 02:52/03:03] auto-install: latex-bin-dev.win32 (51730) [1k] ... done
[14/16, 02:53/03:04] auto-install: latex-bin-dev (51730) [14k] ... done
[15/16, 02:58/03:09] auto-install: latex-graphics-dev (51730) [2017k] ... done

Ulrike Fischer

5:48 AM

@JosephWright oh now it gets interesting ; -)

Joseph Wright

@UlrikeFischer Added to TeXworks here :)

@UlrikeFischer Did you get a chance to look at the l3build changes?

Ulrike Fischer

@JosephWright not yet. I wanted to try on luaotfload but then wasn't sure how I must install/ call the testing version. Will l3build pick up the other files from texmfhome?

Joseph Wright

@UlrikeFischer If you don't isolate the test system, you get the same tree access as normal

@UlrikeFischer I've just added a bit of documentation ...

Ulrike Fischer

6:04 AM

@JosephWright yes but scripts are perhaps different, the main l3build.lua is certainly not taken from texmfhome.

Joseph Wright

@UlrikeFischer Ah, scripts, that's more complex

@UlrikeFischer There was the whole security business: for a script, it's not clear that texmfhome should get used, and it never has been on Linux I think

Ulrike Fischer

6:56 AM

@JosephWright there is an error in the pdflatex-dev setting, it misses latex:

TEXINPUTS.pdflatex-dev  = $TEXMFDOTDIR;$TEXMF/tex/{latex-dev,generic,}//

@JosephWright and the plain settings don't have an additional latex to avoid that they find latex-dev first.

Joseph Wright

7:42 AM

@UlrikeFischer Karl did say it's a work-in-progress

@UlrikeFischer Mail Karl i guess

Ulrike Fischer

@JosephWright I will write him a mail with my comments.

yo'

@barbarabeeton Hello there! Busy, funny, crazy, exhaustive (no, not TeXhaustive). One more day to go and then 3 days of canoeing.

TeXhausted = exhausted by TeX work

David Carlisle

8:01 AM

@UlrikeFischer @JosephWright that depends how you call it. texlua build.lua... will eventually find l3build via kpathsea so in texmfhome if it is there, but l3build... will find the executable on your path which is then a copy or symlink to a specific script so that gets used, so in that case you need a local bin directory in your path

Ulrike Fischer

@DavidCarlisle oh texlua build.lua, I only tried texlua l3build.lua ;-), I should check this.

@DavidCarlisle what is this graphics-2017-06-25.sty that exists only in dev?

David Carlisle

@UlrikeFischer rollbacky thing (Frank added it:-)

Joseph Wright

8:30 AM

@DavidCarlisle Sure, I meant specifically when treated as a program: the route using texlua is quite deliberately different, and from a security POV you are clearly 'on your own' there!

David Carlisle

@JosephWright yes comes up though as when I was testing l3build I had the path set up to pick up a symlink to the one in ~/texmf (ie the place that l3build install installs itself) so getting back to the standard tl installed one means unwinding a few things...

Joseph Wright

@DavidCarlisle Yes, it's a little trickier for l3build itself, but I always use texlua build.lua when using a dev version: really this is only a problem for you/@UlrikeFischer/Frank/me

@DavidCarlisle hopefully the tdslocation stuff looks OK and I can get it to CTAN :) I just have to add a bit of code to uninstall I think

David Carlisle

@JosephWright having uploaded oberdiek (I think) and hyperref last night I gave up loking at install, once I get sign off that they are on ctan I'll tag the repositories then look to see if I can use the new l3build (although daleif's suggestion to leave it as bash but parallelise the pdf construction is tempting:-) Although if I split oberdiek up so each build was just a few minutes it wouldn't be an issue.

Joseph Wright

@DavidCarlisle Sure, we never went for performance in l3build, and I'm not sure I can arrange parallel PDF creation at the present (it's probably doable with effort). But really the bundle is far too big, as each part has its own identity.

@DavidCarlisle We should make the case that the team need a really fast system (although ... couldn't we do building on comedy, as its a VM ...)

@DavidCarlisle Mac Pro or whatnot ;)

@DavidCarlisle I'm semi-serious about the i5 vs i7 business: for 'real' work it's not so bad (I have access to a cluster), but for LaTeX stuff there is actually a reason to think I need as fast a PC as possible :)

Ulrike Fischer

@JosephWright I get a merge conflict in l3build-install.lua??

Joseph Wright

8:44 AM

@UlrikeFischer Did you have an up-to-date master branch?

David Carlisle

@JosephWright I m tempted to see if I can try some of the machines at work, we have a couple of 68 core machines in house...

tjt263

will someone please tell me what happened to marmot?

Paulo Cereda

12/16, 01:15/02:27] auto-install: latex-base-dev (51730) [13367k] ... done

@JosephWright ^^ :)

Ulrike Fischer

@JosephWright why would that matter? I think I pulled yesterday, switched to TDS, got to bed and pulled now again and it is complaining.

Joseph Wright

@tjt263 Marmot was suspended, is now back

tjt263

8:47 AM

yeah but not really

Joseph Wright

@UlrikeFischer Oh, right; as it's a throw-away branch, and there were a few typos, I rebased

tjt263

i know he was suspended, what happened

David Carlisle

@tjt263 He says in his profile that he is leaving, anyone can leave there does not have to be a secret reason.

Joseph Wright

@tjt263 There were tensions between marmot and another user

Ulrike Fischer

@DavidCarlisle aren't there some systems to combine various computer over the internet to do time consuming stuff?

David Carlisle

8:49 AM

@UlrikeFischer oh seti@home for latex builds? good plan

Ulrike Fischer

@JosephWright buh. What is the command to force to get the remote stuff?

tjt263

@DavidCarlisle nah he was suspended or banned or something. that would be why he's talking about leaving.

Joseph Wright

@UlrikeFischer git reset --hard origin/TDS

@tjt263 Like I said, there were tensions, this led to a suspension

Ulrike Fischer

@JosephWright I guess I need to abort the merge first? Or simply directly?

Joseph Wright

@UlrikeFischer Abort the merge, yes

David Carlisle

8:50 AM

@tjt263 why discuss it in a public forum, if a user chooses to say in his profile that he is leaving and chooses not to give reasons, then that is their choice.

Joseph Wright

@UlrikeFischer With feature branches, I hope it's reasonable to rebase to keep the history clear

tjt263

@DavidCarlisle you're smart, why do you think

David Carlisle

@tjt263 ?

Ulrike Fischer

@JosephWright its fine, as long someone tells me the right git magic ;-) It seem to have worked.

Joseph Wright

@UlrikeFischer By someone you mean .... me I guess

@tjt263 People leave for all sorts of reasons, if they choose to share them it's up to them

tjt263

8:53 AM

oh spare me the bullshit

David Carlisle

@tjt263 why so rude? I don't know who marmot is and all I know about his leaving is what he has written on his profile. If he had not written that we wouldn't know he was leaving. What else is there to say?

Joseph Wright

@tjt263 Since I'm a mod, I know why a decision was made to suspend, but I cannot give all the details

Paulo Cereda

@UlrikeFischer I fixed the issue, will commit code in a couple of minutes. :)

Joseph Wright

@tjt263 Suspension doesn't automatically mean people leave: that is in the end down to them

Paulo Cereda

arara has 240 stars on GH!

4

@DavidCarlisle ooh alien TeX

tjt263

9:02 AM

don't patronise me. like i don't know that already. it goes without saying

David Carlisle

@tjt263 not clear who that was aimed at since you are not using the reply feature, but why ask questions if you know the answer.

Joseph Wright

@tjt263 What I'm getting at is that only marmot can say exactly why they are leaving. It might be the suspension itself, it might be things that go with the suspension, it might also be other stuff with the suspension as a trigger or not, ...

David Carlisle

@PauloCereda arara feature request: to to be able to typeset a single paragraph from the oberdiek bundle in spare cpu cycles and a server to coordinate and patch together all the pieces....

Joseph Wright

@tjt263 Perhaps tex.meta.stackexchange.com/a/8365 helps? That is written by marmot

@DavidCarlisle :)

tjt263

9:17 AM

i think it's clear from the context. and that's not an answer to any question i asked. it's more like a substitute for an answer. but whatever. the point is someone made him feel unappreciated so he left. i'm not saying the guy was perfect, i bumped heads with him too, but he was probably the best thing about this site in recent history.

so whoever couldn't help themselves, well done you broke the site and ruined it for the rest of us. he ought to be offered privileges & responsibilities, not suspended. i suggest someone apologize to the guy or at least contact him and let him know he's wanted around here.

Paulo Cereda

@DavidCarlisle oh no

[paulo@cambridge checkcites] $ texlua checkcites.lua --backend biber test --undefined
     _           _       _ _
 ___| |_ ___ ___| |_ ___|_| |_ ___ ___
|  _|   | -_|  _| '_|  _| |  _| -_|_ -|
|___|_|_|___|___|_,_|___|_|_| |___|___|

checkcites.lua -- a reference checker script (v2.1)
Copyright (c) 2012, 2019, Enrico Gregorio, Paulo Roberto Massa Cereda

Great, I found 2 citations in 1 file. I also found 1 bibliography file. Let
me check this file and extract the references. Please wait a moment.

@UlrikeFischer ^^ :)

Ulrike Fischer

@PauloCereda ;-)

Paulo Cereda

@UlrikeFischer blub

David Carlisle

@tjt263 you (or anyone) could leave a comment under his posting that Joseph just linked to. But really most of us answer questions here for fun, and if he isn't finding it fun then taking a break is perhaps not a bad idea, it is in any case his choice.

Ulrike Fischer

@PauloCereda I didn't dare to use zzzz ;-)

Paulo Cereda

9:24 AM

@UlrikeFischer too mainstream. :)

Faheem Mitha

@tjt263 I don't think it's necessarily to express yourself so aggressively, but I agree that marmot leaving is very unfortunate.

David Carlisle

@PauloCereda she wanted to but couldn't find the key

Faheem Mitha

@DavidCarlisle Pardon?

David Carlisle

@FaheemMitha sorry:-)

Paulo Cereda

@DavidCarlisle ooh missing keys, we should report an issue to @JosephWright about l3keys

David Carlisle

9:26 AM

@PauloCereda not missing, just moved around and hidden by some babel package

Faheem Mitha

If it's true (which certainly sounds plausible), that both parties to a dispute are suspended, that does not strike me as reasonable.

Paulo Cereda

@DavidCarlisle people should stick to English.

Faheem Mitha

So, if I was to complain about being harassed, I too would be suspended?

David Carlisle

@PauloCereda Outras línguas são possíveis

@FaheemMitha you can not infer that from a case whose details none of us (who are not mods) are aware of.

Paulo Cereda

@DavidCarlisle In PT-BR, It's probably say s/outras línguas/outros idiomas/g. :)

Ulrike Fischer

9:29 AM

@DavidCarlisle but I found out how to switch to english and so simlz can use the z

Faheem Mitha

@DavidCarlisle I know that, but I'm just speculating. The situation certainly does not make me feel comfortable.

Joseph Wright

@FaheemMitha No

Ulrike Fischer

Faheem Mitha

@JosephWright Glad to hear it.

David Carlisle

@PauloCereda you'd be wrong

Joseph Wright

9:30 AM

@FaheemMitha As I've indicated in some comments on that answer, the issue comes when it's not black-and-white; where there are two users in a disagreement and both have posted unfortunate comments, it's not so simple

David Carlisle

@PauloCereda you can not argue with an infallible oracle

Joseph Wright

@FaheemMitha As I say a lot, if there is an issue with another user, flag their content but do not respond publicly in anything other than a neutral tone. That way, it's very clear for the moderators where the issue lies.

Paulo Cereda

@DavidCarlisle ooh

Faheem Mitha

@JosephWright I have a long-standing policy not to get involved in disputes with random strangers on the net. If they start getting nasty (which sometimes happens) I simply stop responding.

It's happened a time or two in recent memory. Most recently on #lua.

Joseph Wright

@FaheemMitha Sounds good to me

Faheem Mitha

9:32 AM

I rarely do anything to provoke people, but you can't control who chooses to be insulted/offended.

I wish all of life's problems could be solved so simply.

Still, it's hard to imagine marmot getting abusive. He seems like a pretty nice guy.

Joseph Wright

17

Q: Proposal to add "academic honesty" to the code of conduct

When reading the code of conduct of this site, I was a bit surprised not to see any explicit mention of "academic honesty" there. According to how I read this, you can shamelessly copy tricks or code from other posts as long as you are polite and friendly on the surface. The issue itself has, to ...

discussion

@FaheemMitha marmot has a very definite position on some aspects of how to write answers

Faheem Mitha

@JosephWright I see.

tjt263

9:56 AM

@FaheemMitha necessary's got nothing to do with it. i'm pissed off and i want people to know. i'm not a machine and i don't have a lot of patience for bullsh. like i said, i don't really get along with him a lot of the time.

he gets offended easily, sometimes you say one thing but he hears another, and his while attitude rubs me the wrong way, but he has a lot of knowledge and he always tries to help people, and i respect and appreciate that. he's an asset and a huge producer of original content on the site. but i think i've made my point.

"..you can't control who chooses to be insulted/offended."

true

TeXnician

10:50 AM

@PauloCereda And it has only 20 issues. In percent, that's better than the LaTeX3 repo is doing ;)

Paulo Cereda

@TeXnician you are mean <3

@TeXnician it will be soon your problem as well. :)

TeXnician

@PauloCereda Well, I'm not writing fancy stuff that could get such a issue-star-ratio ;)

Paulo Cereda

@TeXnician LOL

Raaja

11:14 AM

@JosephWright But in my opinion that is why we have licenses don't we?

Joseph Wright

@Raaja Partly

@Raaja The question is always how far you take it; the concern in that question is as I understand it more 'tricks' than code, and that's murky

@Raaja For example, I'd say I've posted very few answers that are '100% my ideas'; I've learned a lot of stuff from Knuth himself plus people like Heiko Oberdiek, Alan Jeffrey, Piet van Oostrum, Victor Eijkhout, Frank Mittelbach, our own @DavidCarlisle, etc.

Faheem Mitha

11:35 AM

I was just trying to build biber 2.12 on Debian. It failed bunches of tests.

It's not part of TeX Live, right?

Paulo Cereda

@FaheemMitha Biber? TL has it, yes.

Faheem Mitha

@PauloCereda It does?

It's not packaged here as part of TeX Live.

Paulo Cereda

$ which biber
/opt/texbin/biber

/opt/texbin is my symlink to my TeX Live install. :)

Faheem Mitha

Hmm.

biber is a problem because it likes to depend on very recent Perl releases.

An unfortunate habit.

Raaja

@JosephWright this is the part which needs an explicit mention according to the question.

Joseph Wright

11:42 AM

@Raaja Yes, but that's my point. Almost every answer I've posted here builds on tricks I've picked up from c.t.t, or the LaTeX kernel, or TeX by Topic, or ... and I can't be sure where they are all from beyond that I learned them somewhere

Paulo Cereda

@JosephWright hmmm DPC

Joseph Wright

@FaheemMitha It's largely due to the need to support internationalisation, which is something in active development in Perl

Faheem Mitha

@JosephWright Yes, I recall something like that. In any case, is biber part of TeX Live or not?

Joseph Wright

@FaheemMitha Let me check my Linux VM

Faheem Mitha

Because it certainly isn't being packaged as part of TeX Live.

Raaja

11:44 AM

@JosephWright ok :)

Joseph Wright

@FaheemMitha sudo apt-get install biber works here

Faheem Mitha

@JosephWright Sure. I got test errors are part of the build. What release is your VM?

If it's Buster, try building biber on it.

Joseph Wright

@FaheemMitha 14.04 LTS

Faheem Mitha

@JosephWright Oh, Ubuntu.

Joseph Wright

@FaheemMitha System TL is 2013, normally of course I'm using the vanilla one

Faheem Mitha

11:49 AM

@JosephWright Oh. Isn't that quite old?

The system, I mean.

Joseph Wright

@FaheemMitha Yes: VM is for checking when we have Travis-CI failures. Current laptop only has a 256Gb HD, so I can't afford too many other VMs

Raaja

@JosephWright [off-topic] what do you mean by c.t.t?

Faheem Mitha

Actually biber installs here too. But I don't think it should be failing half the tests.

Joseph Wright

@FaheemMitha Actually, I should update: Travis-CI have move to 16.04.6 ... thanks for the prod ;)

@Raaja Usenet comp.text.tex

Raaja

12:06 PM

@JosephWright thanks :)

Joseph Wright

@Raaja No problem: I suspect nowadays a lot of people don't know what it means

Paulo Cereda

@JosephWright Council for Travel and Tourism

Joseph Wright

@PauloCereda cyclingtimetrials.org.uk

Paulo Cereda

@JosephWright ooh

@JosephWright I was expecting register meself today :)

Joseph Wright

12:26 PM

Ubuntu system updated

Paulo Cereda

12:38 PM

@JosephWright 19? :)

Joseph Wright

@PauloCereda 16

Raaja

1:00 PM

I am not able to find go into the page with the comp.text.tex, is there a link?

@JosephWright indeed ;)

Joseph Wright

@Raaja Via Google Groups: groups.google.com/forum/#!forum/comp.text.tex

@Raaja Like I said, it's usenet so you need an NNTP client to access it 'properly (Thunderbird can do that)

Faheem Mitha

slrn is good. But I haven't used it in a while. And it's no longer being actively developed.

But it's probably hasn't really been actively developed for 20 years.

It's a shame about Usenet. I liked it.

Joseph Wright

@FaheemMitha Unfortunately, there just aren't that many people on e.g. c.t.t. any more

Faheem Mitha

@JosephWright Unfortunate, but unsurprising.

It's hard to resist the bright lights, big city lure of the likes of Stack Exchange.

Let's just hope it doesn't disappear one day, and take all the questions and answers with it.

And yes, I know about the information dumps, but that's not exactly the same.

Joseph Wright

@FaheemMitha There are no certainties: really, we rely on Google for the old Deja News dump of Usenet, after all

Ulrike Fischer

1:14 PM

@JosephWright is tdslocations ordered? I mean can I do something like "path/for/special.lua", "path/for/*.lua"?

Joseph Wright

@UlrikeFischer At present I've not ordered it (pairs not ipairs), though I guess that would be a good plan

Raaja

1:28 PM

@JosephWright thanks for the link and I will try that :)

Faheem Mitha

@JosephWright Yes, indeed. It's unfortunate that some organization like the Internet Archive isn't archiving Usenet. Though that would also involve archiving a lot of spam.

Joseph Wright

@UlrikeFischer What's the semantics required? General then specific, or the other way around?

Faheem Mitha

And Gmane was pretty nice, but it looks like that's gone.

Joseph Wright

@FaheemMitha Yes

Ulrike Fischer

@JosephWright I have no real case yet, just looking at the build lua and trying to order it. But I guess I would use the rule "the first matching hit is used", so from special to general.

Faheem Mitha

1:34 PM

Though I suppose a rescue attempt is still possible.

Joseph Wright

@UlrikeFischer Right, I'll need to rework slightly: a bit later today

Ulrike Fischer

@FaheemMitha I still use gmane, but it is a bit fragile, sometimes a group simply stops and then I have to write mails to get it working again ...

David Carlisle

@UlrikeFischer are you on ho-tex list? seems like I broke something somewhere, can't fix now but will try again this evening

Ulrike Fischer

@DavidCarlisle no, but I can check.

David Carlisle

@UlrikeFischer Petra didn't like my hyperref zip and didn't get the oberdiek one so neither upload made it to ctan:(

Ulrike Fischer

1:38 PM

@DavidCarlisle yes just saw it. Why is there a spell.dict in the doc folder??

David Carlisle

@UlrikeFischer I have no idea but

commit ee0550aa9d0215f844a186b6b202c3f57a853ff7
Author: David Carlisle <d.p.carlisle@gmail.com>
Date:   Thu May 5 16:36:28 2016 +0100

    initial files copied from ctan 2016-05-05

@UlrikeFischer so it's some junk file picked up from the start. It wouldn't be the first time ctan have improved their checking and found things that have been wrong for years

Faheem Mitha

@UlrikeFischer Write mails to who? I thought it had simply stopped working.

Some group offered to take care of it, but as far as I can tell, there are still broken links all over the place. I haven't tried to access Gmane via NNTP for years. Ditto for Usenet itself, probably.

I bet comp.lang.lisp is still active, though.

Ulrike Fischer

@FaheemMitha no it still works, and I read a number of lists over gmane:

Paulo Cereda

Eternal September, anyone? :)

3

wilx

2:44 PM

Hi there.

Alan Munn

@wilx Hi

wilx

I have a slightly off topic but related problem. Evince and fc-match are convinced my Windows 8.1 Courier New Bold is worse match than DejaVu Sans Mono. The PDF invoice I got from a shop thus looks awful.

Faheem Mitha

@UlrikeFischer Ok. Good to know.

Alan Munn

2:57 PM

@wilx I'm not sure I understand.

wilx

wilx:/usr/share/fonts> fc-match "Courier New Bold"
DejaVuSans.ttf: "DejaVu Sans" "Book"

With FC_DEBUG=2 environment variable I can even see it looking at the courbd.ttf file but still it does not choose it.

Alan Munn

3:13 PM

@wilx Yes, same for me. But I've never used fc-match (didn't even know of its existence until now.)

Diaa

Hi everyone,

When I submit an article to some journals, the plagiarism software detects my written equations as a plagiarised content from my own previous paper. It compares the brackets/parenthesis shape and even the dots.

So, is it an ethical question to ask on the main site how to mutate/morph the already written equations in a simple way to not be detected as plagiarized?

wilx

@Diaa I am not from academia but why can't you use your own equations? Even plagiarize them?

Diaa

@wilx It detected that the proof I need to introduce in the new paper is plagiarized from my own previously-published article.

Alan Munn

@Diaa I don't think that's a good kind of question for the site. And if an automated system flags content, surely there's a way to notify the editors that the flagging is in error. It certainly seems odd that equations would be treated that way.

@Diaa Are you sure it's the equations and not the text in the proof? I assume you're citing yourself. @barbarabeeton I wonder if you have any suggestions?

Diaa

@AlanMunn The editor reply was kind of answer machine's that the similarity needs to be cut down. I managed to escape by removing the proof.

@AlanMunn It is the equation itself. The plagiarism software is iThenticate.

Alan Munn

3:23 PM

@Diaa That seems like a really strange response. But I don't work in a math field, so I don't know how these things are treated generally. Although I can see that it would make sense to simply state the result of the proof and cite your other paper. Or is it the result that's getting flagged?

barbara beeton

@Diaa -- In my opinion, this is ridiculous, and the (human) editors ought to be able to straighten things out, given an explanation. I will check with my former colleagues at the American Math Society to see what is done there. (Even if it's not your own earlier paper, it's not unknown in math to quote earlier work, in which case it would be appropriate and necessary to give an accurate citation; if such a citation is given, I see no valid reason to claim plagiarism.)

Diaa

@barbarabeeton He rejected it when the similarity was as even low as 5% from my own paper XD. I had to remove the proof instead of wasting time morphing the shape of the equations.

Alan Munn

@Diaa Time to find another journal. :)

Paulo Cereda

3:48 PM

@Diaa The proof is trivial and is left as an exercise to the reader. \qed :)

egreg

4:40 PM

@JosephWright @DavidCarlisle How to report issues with the dev branch?

\documentclass{article}
\usepackage{unicode-math}
\begin{document}
Hello world
\end{document}

David Carlisle

the filehook thing....? We should probably put a patch in the dev tree (although I think @JosephWright said an update was expected?)

Ulrike Fischer

@egreg can you check if the new version work? bitbucket.org/martin_scharrer/filehook

egreg

@UlrikeFischer Same error

@UlrikeFischer Oh, wait, wrong file

@UlrikeFischer Different error

! Undefined control sequence.
l.3585 \AtEndOfPackageFile
                           * {url}

Ulrike Fischer

4:57 PM

@egreg do you have a bitbucket account to report here bitbucket.org/martin_scharrer/filehook/issues/1/…?

egreg

@UlrikeFischer I guess there's something else wrong: I get an empty filehook.sty

David Carlisle

@egreg I didn't get an error, just a warning... oh I see I'd already a modified filehook in my tree...

@UlrikeFischer hyperref attempt 2 gone to ctan

egreg

@UlrikeFischer bitbucket.org/martin_scharrer/filehook/issues/2/…

David Carlisle

@egreg looking at the makefile it's not docstrip tex '\input ydocincl ...

Ulrike Fischer

5:17 PM

@egreg I think that the source files are the sty in the git, and that the real dtx is generated only for the upload.

barbara beeton

5:39 PM

@tjt263 -- May I point out that you have decided, in your profile, to remain anonymous. That's a personal choice that I feel bound to respect. marmot has been a great contributor, and I too regret marmot's leaving, but there must be good reasons, though not made public; a fact we should respect.

barbara beeton

5:50 PM

@Diaa -- I've inquired about the AMS plagiarism check. The person I asked is out of the office until next week, but she reported "this is a gray area not understood by software. Does the author include a reference to his paper and a citation near the equation? That should be adequate under fair use. [...] that’s how we’d handle it. This is an incredibly common practice."

egreg

@UlrikeFischer @DavidCarlisle I used make all, but the error is still the same.

\ProvidesPackage{filehook}[%
    2019/07/12
    v0.5e
    Hooks for input files]

! Package filehook Error: Detected unknown definition of \InputIfFileExists.
Use the 'force' option of 'filehook' to overwrite it..

See the filehook package documentation for explanation.
Type  H <return>  for immediate help.
 ...

l.400 ... option of 'filehook' to overwrite it.}{}

Mensch

@barbarabeeton Just a question: You are already listed in the meta question about maintainer of packages, see link following. Now after your retirement (is that correct so in english?) can you tell us/add there the official successor for your job? Or should the entries be unchanged?

56

A: Who are the package maintainers here?

LaTeX Classes Symbol legend: BitBucket, GitHub, Launchpad achemso: Joseph Wright amsart: Barbara Beeton and others at AMS (tech-support@ams.org) amsbook: Barbara Beeton and others at AMS (tech-support@ams.org) amsproc: Barbara Beeton and others at AMS (tech-support@ams.org) aomart: Boris...

There are also listed maintainer (for example Christina Hupfer) which have left the page. What should done with that entries?

Ulrike Fischer

6:06 PM

@egreg @DavidCarlisle it is a type in filehook.sty. It has \swap@args instead of \@swaptwoargs.

tjt263

@barbarabeeton what are you talking about? we all know why he's leaving. the whole thing's been public from the beginning. It's not a secret.

barbara beeton

@Mensch -- Yes, "after my retirement" is the correct way to express that. The packages listed with me as maintainer are still maintained by the tech-support staff at AMS, and the address given will remain valid for that group. At least one of that group does visit here and answer when appropriate (I have notified him when relevant questions are asked), but without his permission I am not free to divulge his name. How that should affect the "maintainers" list, I don't know.

Alan Munn

@Mensch Christian not Christina :) It seems reasonable to remove those links, since they are dead now.

Paulo Cereda

@AlanMunn ooh a thousand years

barbara beeton

@Mensch -- Maybe the "maintainers" list entries should be changed to "the tech-support group at AMS (tech-support@ams.org) of which Barbara Beeton was a member before her retirement"? Verbose, but I'm still here and intend to remain.

Mensch

6:16 PM

@barbarabeeton it is great that you will remain! I appreciate that. But I think as long as you will be listed there you will have responses about maintaining you can of course sent to the current maintainer group but needs action of you. My thought only was would it not be better to send the bug report to the now maintaining person/group? I think I can not decide that, but I think it is worth to think about that ...

barbara beeton

@tjt263 -- Your comments have been pressing for reasons, but if you don't agree, I'm willing to have my comment removed. Further speculation is pointless.

Paulo Cereda

Is it safe to tell Avengers: Endgame spoilers now?

barbara beeton

@Mensch -- The person from AMS who I know answers questions here is not the actual "maintainer"; the person actually responsible for updates is unlikely to frequent this group. Thus, removing my name would result in removing those entries from the list. If that is what is appropriate, then I will gladly remove them, but I did think that having an actual address to contact in case of a bug-type question might be useful. @JosephWright -- Your opinion on this?

Stefan Kottwitz

@PauloCereda You mean Captain America's romance with Hawkeye, that Black Widow's husband is still alive, that Virginia „Pepper“ Potts is a secret agent and Bruce Banner is the son of Loki? Sure, that's already old stuff.

Paulo Cereda

@StefanKottwitz hey that's better than Natalie Portman to be portrayed as the next Thor. :)

Stefan Kottwitz

6:29 PM

@PauloCereda She isn't even black.

Paulo Cereda

@StefanKottwitz that's the swan, you are mixing movies. :)

Stefan Kottwitz

@PauloCereda Marvel is mixing ;-)

@PauloCereda and it was a duck.

Paulo Cereda

@StefanKottwitz :)

Stefan Kottwitz

@PauloCereda Sorry did I spoil your spoilers? :-D

David Carlisle

@UlrikeFischer Oberdiek upload try 2...

Ulrike Fischer

6:39 PM

@DavidCarlisle ;-). I'm trying to implement tagging in lualibs and testing @JosephWright code (I'm not sure I got it right ...).

Paulo Cereda

@StefanKottwitz Das Spoilers

Ulrike Fischer

@PauloCereda Der Spoiler.

David Carlisle

@tjt263 I don't know why he's leaving, do you have access to more information than is public?

Paulo Cereda

@UlrikeFischer ooh

Ulrike Fischer

@PauloCereda did you know that we have the nice phrase "eine Ente auf's Wasser setzen"?

David Carlisle

6:40 PM

@AlanMunn @Mensch I would leave them. The answers are still there and it's still useful to know an answer is from an author of a package

Paulo Cereda

@UlrikeFischer ooh I can understand 50% of it! :)

Ulrike Fischer

@DavidCarlisle and in between I'm trying to convince someone that \def\grabdisplay#1$${\actualtext{#1}$$} \everydisplay{\grabdisplay} is not the best idea ...

David Carlisle

@UlrikeFischer do they use latex at all?

Joseph Wright

@UlrikeFischer Oh goody

David Carlisle

Petra accepted hyperref this time:-)

Joseph Wright

6:44 PM

@DavidCarlisle, @egreg, @UlrikeFischer Would welcome thoughts in chat.stackexchange.com/rooms/96660/…

Ulrike Fischer

@DavidCarlisle yes, they (singular) want to use this in latex to grap the content of math in $$...$$, there is a similar command for $..$ ;-(.

Joseph Wright

@DavidCarlisle Yay

@UlrikeFischer Hic sunt leones would be my position

David Carlisle

@UlrikeFischer but presumably don't use \[ or any ams alignment or anything else that would break

Paulo Cereda

@JosephWright or dracones

David Carlisle

@JosephWright what's it about? should I start from the top...

Ulrike Fischer

6:48 PM

@DavidCarlisle well they want to write something that grab all math ;-). I showed an breaking example with equation and ( but I'm not sure that they understand.

Joseph Wright

@DavidCarlisle The user is trying to build the e-TeX format but getting an error from the engine test in the hyphenation files: they use chi as it's two bytes in pdfTeX, one in e.g. LuaTeX.

Stefan Kottwitz

@PauloCereda Hic sunt anais.

Joseph Wright

@DavidCarlisle It's just occurred to me that they should not be seeing ^^?^^? at all, so I wonder if the sources are hosed

@DavidCarlisle It's not normal e-TeX: the JavaScript conversion, so it's also possible something is screwed up in file reading

David Carlisle

@JosephWright ^^ handling is pretty weird thing to emulate:-)

Joseph Wright

@DavidCarlisle Yeah, it occurs to me they may have messed up everything beyond ASCII

David Carlisle

6:56 PM

@JosephWright it runs inline in a browser so input strings are pretty much Unicode I would guess (don't know if that is documented anywhere)

Joseph Wright

@DavidCarlisle Yeah, exactly, and the ^^?^^? is suspicious

Paulo Cereda

@DavidCarlisle huzzah

@DavidCarlisle ^^ I am getting this English stuff

David Carlisle

@PauloCereda excellent use of zs

Paulo Cereda

@DavidCarlisle ooh

@DavidCarlisle Thankfully CTAN didn't make a hullabaloo about hyperref.

Another great usage of English stuff.

David Carlisle

@PauloCereda they did yesterday

Paulo Cereda

7:11 PM

@DavidCarlisle balderdash!

:D

David Carlisle

@PauloCereda poppycock

Paulo Cereda

@DavidCarlisle ooh

@DavidCarlisle: @AlanMunn and @barbarabeeton will be proud of us. :)

barbara beeton

@PauloCereda -- Bushwa.

Paulo Cereda

@barbarabeeton ooh

egreg

@UlrikeFischer Good spot!

Diaa

7:28 PM

Thanks for your consideration. I didn't explicitly cite my previous paper near the set of the equations, but I already have it in the list of references. Furthermore, the email I received from the editor was:

Reviewers' comments on your work have now been received. You will see that they are advising against the publication of your work. Therefore I must reject it.

I append the reviewers' comments below. If the Reviewers Comments box reads 'see attached note' please log on to the online submission system, click into the folder "Submissions with a Decision" and then on "View

Raaja

@PauloCereda and that is the best proof ever :)

barbara beeton

@Diaa -- Clearly the rejecting editor didn't actually look at the differences. But to make the source of the "plagiarized material" clear, you could say in that context (perhaps as a footnote citing the source) "as I [demonstrated|noted|observed] in my previous paper\footnote{<citation>}". Just citing the paper in the references may not be enough; probably the reviewing editor hasn't read it.

Alan Munn

8:12 PM

@DavidCarlisle But then someone needs to do some detective work to link to the user number, since the links via the name don't work any more.

David Carlisle

@AlanMunn well yes, but still that can be fixed as time allows, but if things are deleted, they have gone

Alan Munn

@DavidCarlisle Actually that doesn't help. Deleted user numbers aren't linked to their questions any more.

David Carlisle

@AlanMunn ah well, it was just a thought:-)

Joseph Wright

@UlrikeFischer Ordering for tdslocations implemented

Ulrike Fischer

@JosephWright I just run a test, and either I didn't understand correctly the use, or something doesn't work as expected. My test is that I want two specific files (listed as glob in installfiles) not to go to tex but into source. When I add them to tdslocation they get into source, but I find them in tex too.

Joseph Wright

8:27 PM

@UlrikeFischer Hmm

@UlrikeFischer I'll try some things out

@UlrikeFischer Ah, I see the issue

@UlrikeFischer Try now

Ulrike Fischer

@JosephWright will need a bit time. I also have problems to use l3build with texlua build.lua: it then claims not to know the options table, so I copied the files into texmf-dist.

Joseph Wright

@UlrikeFischer I'm testing some torture installs

Ulrike Fischer

@JosephWright I'm just running the test too.

Joseph Wright

I guess I better look at pdfTeX ... Karl has given me tasks

@UlrikeFischer Cool

@UlrikeFischer Next is uninstall I think

Oooh, we've not had our TUG membership election ... need to do that!

Ulrike Fischer

8:44 PM

@JosephWright looks good now.

Joseph Wright

@UlrikeFischer Cool: covers the use cases? (@DavidCarlisle)

@UlrikeFischer, @DavidCarlisle If this looks good, I'll sort uninstallation then release

@UlrikeFischer Next, \pdfmajorversion I guess, unless there is feedback on the team list on expl3 stuff

David Carlisle

@JosephWright let me see if oberdiek gets accepted before I look too hard at l3build:-)

Joseph Wright

@UlrikeFischer We don't have anything to add to the backend at present?

@DavidCarlisle :)

David Carlisle

@JosephWright is Martin planning to release filehook soon do you know?

Joseph Wright

@DavidCarlisle No idea

David Carlisle

8:47 PM

@JosephWright if not we may need to push a patched one to latex-dev as it's a bit hard to test with luatex if unicode-math etc error

Joseph Wright

@DavidCarlisle He told me last Saturday he'd done a release, but I think another is needed

@UlrikeFischer That right ^^^

@UlrikeFischer, @DavidCarlisle Right, I think I have tdslocations working properly for install and uninstall

Where is @PauloCereda when you need code review ;)

@PauloCereda You do realise that now we have one Brazilian on the team, a second one as a Lua expert is bound to happen ...

Ulrike Fischer

@JosephWright the catalog doesn't say something about an update. Let's look if something happens over the weekend, and if needed we can add a patch.

Joseph Wright

@UlrikeFischer Yeah, didn't think I'd seen anything

Joseph Wright

9:48 PM

@StefanKottwitz Do we want to run a TUG competition or just carry over the current 'set', as it's almost August already?

Stefan Kottwitz

@JosephWright Good question!

@JosephWright Nobody challenged the current set or stepped forward or even brought it up until now.

Joseph Wright

@StefanKottwitz Exactly: might be best just to stay as we are

Stefan Kottwitz

@JosephWright I think the same, like a silent agreement after 7 months this year.

Joseph Wright

@StefanKottwitz Cool: makes life easier!

Stefan Kottwitz

@JosephWright Next year we could ask early enough.

Joseph Wright

9:56 PM

@StefanKottwitz Perhaps a meta post just to say that??

Stefan Kottwitz

@JosephWright Once you checked that SO paid the 2019 fee ;-)

Joseph Wright

@UlrikeFischer, @DavidCarlisle Looks like Karl sorted out the dev stuff

@StefanKottwitz I think that was implicit in the mail ;)

Ulrike Fischer

@JosephWright did you see the comment about luahbtex?

Joseph Wright

@UlrikeFischer Yes

@UlrikeFischer Not sure we are going to get a meeting of minds there

tjt263

@barbarabeeton agree with what? i don't know the comments you're talking about. i'm happy for you to say whatever you like though

Stefan Kottwitz

9:58 PM

@JosephWright Don't remember, too much mail :-o

Joseph Wright

@StefanKottwitz You want to be on the team list!

Stefan Kottwitz

@JosephWright There's a list I'm not subscribed to? Add me!

Joseph Wright

@StefanKottwitz Doesn't work that way :)

Stefan Kottwitz

@JosephWright I will figure out until 2050, as BoJo does!

Joseph Wright

@StefanKottwitz Oh don't!

@StefanKottwitz I wish I'd put money on No Deal three year's ago

David Carlisle

10:02 PM

@UlrikeFischer I'm tempted to reply

Joseph Wright

@DavidCarlisle Polite reply?

David Carlisle

@JosephWright NO SHOUTY ANGRY ONE OF COURSE

Joseph Wright

@DavidCarlisle Hmm

Stefan Kottwitz

@JosephWright You still can bet on the pound. Oh wait, you got pounds.

Joseph Wright

@DavidCarlisle Karl can just reply with your favour phrase ...

@StefanKottwitz Oh yes! No danger of euro here

Stefan Kottwitz

10:05 PM

@JosephWright All UK liabilities are in pounds? :-)

tjt263

10:21 PM

@DavidCarlisle haven't we already been over it? i was online when it happened. it was pretty public. i didn't pay much attention to it. some guy was stirring him up, i was like who cares, forget about it, some guy on the internets being a dick what's new. i thought that was the end of it, but someone booted him off the site. i think whoever it was, was actually a moderator or something. i didn't know he got booted til later.

Joseph Wright

@tjt263 Suspensions are actioned by the moderators (which can in some cases be StackExchange staff), that's true

tjt263

well, yeah
obviously

David Carlisle

@tjt263 no that is wrong, he wasn't booted off the site, he had a few days suspension and then came back at which point he decided for his own private reasons to leave, perhaps he just didn't find it enjoyable

Alan Munn

@tjt263 Just to be very clear no-one was "booted off the site". He was suspended for 7 days by the moderators (see the meta post tex.meta.stackexchange.com/q/8361/2693 for some discussion of how and why such actions are sanctioned.) He is currently not under suspension, but has decided, it seems, to stop participating further.

tjt263

i don't remember who exactly, i can find out if you really want to know

David Carlisle

10:26 PM

@tjt263 I know who it was, but it is not relevant to your statement that he has been booted off the site, which is simply false.

tjt263

@DavidCarlisle so, yeah.. he got booted, and he's cracked the shits over it

David Carlisle

@tjt263 "booted off" is not a helpful description of what happened, but if it pleases you to make things seem worse than they are, so be it.

tjt263

so, if you know who it was, tell them to sort it out

David Carlisle

@tjt263 there is nothing to sort out. If marmot wants to come back he will come back, he can come back under a different user name if he wants.

Joseph Wright

@tjt263 Both marmot and the other user involved were suspended

Alan Munn

10:29 PM

@tjt263 Please read the meta post I linked to carefully. This explains what measures were tried to "sort it out" before any suspensions were issued.

manooooh

Hello guys!!

Does someone know how to write text with fancy page like this?:

It is just an example. I would like to print it. I also like to change the normal text font to a fancier one

(The text includes math)

Stefan Kottwitz

@tjt263 There's a public answer of Shog9 to a post that Raaja linked in the question, regarding suspended users: "no airing of dirty laundry in public, no bringing up issues faced as a moderator in unrelated discussions, questions raised by other members of the public answered with as little detail as possible. Speculation should be discouraged out of respect for those involved."

manooooh

10:54 PM

@tjt263 please be careful of vocabulary

David Carlisle

@tjt263 your language is really not suitable for this forum.

@tjt263 he (like you) chose to be anonymous so if he leaves then most of us have no way of contacting him. If he is not enjoying interacting on the site he should take a break, no point demanding he comes back if he doesn't want to.

tjt263

oh get over yourselves

egreg

11:13 PM

@tjt263 Please. Avoid such behavior in the chat. I'm referring to your last line. And, of course, to the removed one.

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