Ahh another question; do you guys use vim through your terminal or through en external application? (That is if you run vim in the first place)

@user279540 -- the creators of both tex and latex were trained as mathematicians, and morphed into computer scientists. however, the creator of tex remained more sensitive to the niceties of math typography as it was necessary to retain the good style and excellent appearance of his work "the art of copmputer programming" as produced with monotype. (c0nt'd.)

(cont'd.) the creator of latex was more interested in ease of text entry as he needed it, from the point of view of a computer scientist. and he did not take into consideration the needs of math publishers. so no, latex was not initially specifically designed for math (cf. \eqnarray). math niceties were added later as designed by a practicing mathematician with a noted record for expository writing..

@JohnDorian (and @AlanMunn) -- i disagree somewhat with alan. i don't think a graphic designer, unless s/he has had specific experience with math typography, would be able to answer the first question competently, so, although it is rather opinion based, there are characteristics of fonts that make them suitable or not for math setting. i would be willing to set out those principles to allow you to make an educated decision.

@JohnDorian -- regarding leading for math texts, it would be instructive to look at the various settings used in the document classes designed for math publishers. you are correct about the advantage of "increased" leading if there's a lot of in-line math. the goal is to keep the leading consistent throughout a text, although not so wide as to make it appear discontinuous. and if the text is full of complicated sub- and superscripts, then t needs to be sufficiently open to maintain even spacing.

@user279540 -- i've never switched from a qwerty keyboard for any significant period. but emacs is so embedded "in my fingers" that if i'm forced to update a word file, it's almost certain that i'll trash it by inadvertently typing an emacs command. this is a terrible time sink, because recovering and correcting the stupid error usually takes more time than it would to type the whole thing in from scratch in emacs + (la)tex. but ... ymmv.

(my profile is unrelated)

@barbarabeeton Hmmm … Spivak?

Quack!

@PauloCereda qua–?

@HaraldHanche-Olsen <3

@DavidCarlisle tug.org/svn/texlive?view=revision&revision=46914 :)

@JosephWright the windows wrappers are written in lua? I hadn't noticed that before

@DavidCarlisle Yes :)

@DavidCarlisle They are slowly moving everything to Lua I think

@DavidCarlisle Consistent behaviour :)

@HaraldHanche-Olsen Did Spivak work on math in (La)TeX?

@AlanMunn you can get the information from the log if you turn on \showoutput

@JosephWright yes it just seems slightly bizarre that the workaround for windows inability to use executable lua scripts is to write a wrapper executable in lua:-)

@mickep no he doesn't like latex at all. He wrote amstex

@DavidCarlisle Oh, I'm so uneducated when it comes to the history of TeX, it seems! :D

@mickep amstex was a separate format with a separate manual, the excellently titled "The Joy of TeX", but eventually even the AMS wanted to switch to latex, so that got re-coded to become amsmath.sty (more or less)

@DavidCarlisle They are. And the way it's done is quite clever: you copy the .exe wrapper and rename it to the name of your script. This will be used as lookup. :)

@DavidCarlisle There is a binary in the end [has to start MZ ;)]

@JosephWright yes, so I see. Hopefully in the end the "linux subsystem for windows" will be the default windows commandline and the need for such things will go:-)

@DavidCarlisle Thanks for the info. I have enjoyed several of Spivak's books.

@DavidCarlisle There seems also to have been something called lams-tex, some kind of intermediate.

@mickep (see Yannis' recent question asking for that) as I say Spivak didn't like latex at all and he produced (two versions of) lams-tex with his own merger, essentially moving sectioning and automatic labe/\ref from latex to a n amstex core, rather than ams-latex (amsmath,sty) which moved amstex math layout to a latex core. But there wa sno free documentation of either the internal coding or user level, and by then there were far more people using latex so it was never used in practice.

@DavidCarlisle texlua not on the path ...

@JosephWright not at the moment, but it could be (if the windows texlive was just the linux one compiled on that for example) Not while the subsystem is off by default and hidden behind a developer option in the windows settings, but one day...

@JosephWright as in:

$ texlua
The program 'texlua' is currently not installed. You can install it by typing:
sudo apt install texlive-binaries

@DavidCarlisle boo

@PauloCereda boo to apt?

@DavidCarlisle Yes, and all it stands :)

@DavidCarlisle: not really, I just need to annoy you. :)

@PauloCereda I must admit I just use apt or yum or whatever without ever noticing which is which as I don't do much linux admin these days, but microsoft now support fedora and suse as well as ubuntu:

blogs.msdn.microsoft.com/commandline/2017/05/11/…

@DavidCarlisle Hmmm Fedora

@PauloCereda most of our linux boxes at work are fedora

@DavidCarlisle <3

@DavidCarlisle Yup

@JosephWright I'd try that but my ssd is a bit full to have lots of tex systems

@DavidCarlisle Know the feeling

@DavidCarlisle I want a SSD

@DavidCarlisle I already have TL'09-TL'18, MiKTeX and my Ubuntu VM ...

@JosephWright mine has all this fortran and xml stuff on it....

@DavidCarlisle :)

@JosephWright Wow

@PauloCereda Grabbing TL'17 vanilla on my Linux subsystem now: worth trying out :)

@JosephWright you impress me. :)

@PauloCereda I've installed the basic set up: keep it relatively small

@JosephWright :)

Can one ask questions here?

I'm looking for a way to know whether a pagebreak is about to occur or has already. First thing that came to mind was setting a counter to 0 and incrementing w/ each row and setting to zero after a pagebreak, which I don't know how to do.

@PauloCereda Oh yeah, simply love that one!

@mickep :)

@HaraldHanche-Olsen -- yes for the math, not for the latex.

@vlg that's not the way it works, all macro expansions and counter assignments etc in the body of the page happen before any page breaking decisions, then later the output routine takes some of the top of the current (notionally infinite) vertical material that has been typeset and possibly adds any pending floating figures or tables, adds the page head and foot and ships out a page. so in general you need a two-pass system comparing for example a \pageref but see needspace package

@mickep -- amsmath was essentially a translation into latex syntax from amstex. it was accomplished mainly by frank mittelbach, rainer schöpf, and michael downes. mike spivak had nothing to do with it -- his reaction fo latex was lamstex, now essentially defunct.

@barbarabeeton quack!

@PauloCereda What's the progress of your thesis Duckipedia? ;-)

@ChristianHupfer oh no

@ChristianHupfer Did you delete your answer to my question?

@JohnDorian Yes.

@ChristianHupfer Why? It was very helpful and well-received.

@DavidCarlisle Does the hold true for working within an environment, like a multi-page longtable? I don't quite understand. Even outside the longtable in a 2-row preamble printing 'page~\thepage \\' gets me wrong numbers.

@vlg yes taht's expected

But the actual page number gets incremented, I'd thought that it gets the value from \thepage

@vlg inside or outside longtable \thepage will give you the current value of the page counter, not the page on which that text will appear

@vlg the page counter is incremented as tex invokes the output routine to make up a page, so the only place where \thepage matches the page number is when typesetting the page head and foot, never in the body of the document.

Okay, got it

take the simplest possible example, a document with a single long paragraph of text that covers three pages. \thepage will be one at all points on the paragraph, as only later all the lines of the paragraph are split in to pages.

I wanted to make the longtable have equal amounts of rows on all pages by removing the non-pagebreaking newlines and using and ifthen statement of sorts calculate with page has more rows for he vertical multirow to be printed on.

@vlg would be easier with the supertb/xtab family of multi-page tables as they work essentially by counting rows and making a sequence of tabular every n rows, longtable was by design an experiment not to do that and use the standard tex output routine mechanisms but there are pros and cons...

I want everything automatic, because a new row or one fewer anywhere back would offset the date by a little or a lot (if it's for several rows and gets sent to next page). I made a macro with a counter that just counts rows for said date and that works great, when it's non-breaking and there's enough vertical space.

Oh..

@barbarabeeton Ah, yes, I still have the lamstex manual on my shelf. But I never used it, not even once. I have a few ancient TeX files lying around using amstex, I think. But I know a few people who still use it. (And the Joy of TeX was a delightful spoof on that other book with a similar title – right down to the chapter titles.)

Need some help from a Tikzpert this time. I have a fancy brace with an attached label: \draw [ssbrace] (0,0) -- (0,1) node (uppersslabel) [ssbracemath] {$x$};

The purpose of the uppersslabel is to name the node.

Or that's what I'd like to do. However, I'm getting an error in a later command.

\draw ((uppersslabel.center),0) node [anchor=center] (lowersslabel) {$y$};

Package pgf Error: No shape named (uppersslabel is known. \draw ((uppersslabel.center)

Also, \draw (uppersslabel.center,\yyPc) ... doesn't work.

Any thoughts?

@COTO Why not ask on the main site, with a proper MWE? Unless it's something as simple as using the remember picture option. But my TikZ ignorance is endless.

I will. I usually ask in here first because the questions don't seem (shall we say) "significant enough" to be asked on the main forum. But perhaps this one is.

@COTO it's better to ask on site, if you ask here you are directly asking the one or two people here but if you ask on site the question stays visible until someone who knows the answer passes by and sees it

facebook.com/HappyCatsOnline/videos/2144645788909685

The LHC stopped hibernating ;-)

@marmot So the LHC is an acronym for a marmot then? ;-)

@ChristianHupfer No, marmots are still hibernating. And as everybody knows, LHC stands for "Let's Have Coffee" even though some claim it is "Let's Have Cheese" or "Let's Have Cake". ;-)

@marmot Come on, be serious... No one ever said "Let's Have Cake" or "Let's Have Coffee", but "Let's Have Cheese" is very likely ;-)

@marmot Coca-Cola too

hmmm Coca-Cola

@PauloCereda Shameless advertisement ... :-P

@ChristianHupfer quack <3

twitter.com/fringetracker/status/971890933246644225/photo/1

@PauloCereda Did you see my Skype message? (Moot now, since I assumed no change.)

@ChristianHupfer It depends on the background. In some Asian countries, cheese is not too popular. But pineapple cake is.

@PauloCereda The cheesy reference by @marmot reminds of some cheese sketch ;-)

@AlanMunn ooh probably not, I am offline for the past few days. Hold on.

@ChristianHupfer Do you like to buy some cheese? :)

@marmot Which does not contradict my ironical comment ;-)

@PauloCereda You are offline? And all your messages are written by some TikZ duck automaton, I assume?

@PauloCereda /with swiss accent: Yes, I want to buy some cheese :-P

@marmot You mean DuckZ?

@ChristianHupfer In the CERN cafeteria they also have reasonable coffee. And cheese is sooooo much better on the Swiss side (but also more pricy).

@ChristianHupfer Ohhh, when will "DuckZ" be released?

@marmot We did not made into the cafeteria two years ago when I was there with a bunch of students. We had a talk by some older bloke that seemed to exist even before there was a Big Bang ;-) The talk lasted too long and we had to cancel the CERN cafeteria experience /sob

@DavidCarlisle Found out that the problem with the row numbering earlier mentioned was due to the chunk size, also didn't know you were the one who wrote the package! It's been of great use for the past 3 years.

@ChristianHupfer But what's the point going to CERN other than hanging out at the cafeteria and looking at the Mont Blanc?

@marmot Ask the people that are obsessed by TikZ and Ducks -- I am the wrong person for that

@marmot Seeing colliders? Seeing tiny blackholes made by strangelets etc. ;-)

@ChristianHupfer Well, if you compare colliders to Mont Blanc, which one is prettier?

@marmot I would not have gained permission to organize a trip to Geneva for seeing the Mont Blanc as a special end-of-school year - event in a Physics course, so the primary goal was to see the colliders...

@marmot: But in the very end, it was a very rainy day -- we neither saw a collider nor the Mont Blanc :-(

@ChristianHupfer I see. Well, I just said I am a theorist, so they let me alone with the collider. And I stayed a bit longer there, such that I had nice views to the Mont Blanc and some nice bike rides around the lake at the weekends. ;-)

@marmot Ah, the famous shutdown some years ago was caused by you then -- since you are a Theorist ;-)

@ChristianHupfer Naahh, this was a pigeon. Not me. Without theorists inventing supersymmetry, the LHC may not have been built. Why are the experimentalists so stubborn and refuse to discover it? ;-)

@marmot Are you sure it was not the super symmetric partner of a pigeon? ;-) Or an anti-pigeon?

@ChristianHupfer Yes, pretty sure, because this would be a pigeino.

@marmot Ah, yes. of course :D

@marmot The Feynman diagram shows a pigeon head moving forward and backward, I assume?

@ChristianHupfer Why? A penguin diagram shows a penguin, a tadpole diagram a tadpole, but there is, as far as I know, not yet a pigeon diagram. (BTW, you should not complain that the penguin diagram does not really look like a penguin, after all a Feynman diagram also does not look like Feynman ;-)

@marmot Just like olive oil is made from olives and peanut oil is made from peanuts but baby oil and motor oil are not made from babies and motors. :)

@AlanMunn Precisely. ;-)

@marmot By letting a pigeon do the work, you missed your chance to become famous: theguardian.com/science/2017/jan/27/…

@vlg yes/no thepage will not change in a chunk (just as it doesn't change in a paragraph) but it can be wrong even with chunksize=1, it is never reliable to test it mid-docuemtn

@samcarter Well, I don't know, this kind of fame is perhaps not the one I am after. Peking ducks are also famous, right?

@UlrikeFischer Hi, I added an example code to tex.stackexchange.com/questions/417485 as requested a couple of days ago. And yes, with the newest viewer it seems to work!

@Dr.ManuelKuehner Yes, I see no differences between the document with and without the \pdfpageattr in the DC-viewers.

@UlrikeFischer Yeah - strange. I see a difference. I will update the "question" and then will go to bed :)

@Dr.ManuelKuehner I'm currently reading up on transparency (for slightly different reasons, but that's not really key here): it will take a few days to digest it all, but hopefully it will help

@JosephWright Thank you very much for addressing the subject. I know that I bugged some people around here - but my intentions are good :).

@UlrikeFischer I updated it now. Bye :)

@Dr.ManuelKuehner As wrote "DC", you are obviously looking at the older X-viewer.

@DavidCarlisle: github.com/alevchuk/vim-clutch

@UlrikeFischer Yes. I do not have access to the newer professional viewer.

@PauloCereda finally! a useable vi interface

@DavidCarlisle oi

@Dr.ManuelKuehner which viewers do you see the issue with, eg do you see it if you view the pdf in a web browser?

@PauloCereda what response did you expect?

> The actual implementation will almost certainly be different from what these descriptions might imply.

@DavidCarlisle The screenshorts says it is "Adobe Acrobat X Pro", I don't see it with Adobe Acrobat DC Pro.

@UlrikeFischer ooooooh

@Johannes_B ^

Wading through luatex nodes is hard work. Who would have expected that n.list of a hlist node is sometimes not a node ;-(.

@DavidCarlisle I am offline now. In Texmaker there was no issue. My concern is Adobe products since this is the main viewer software in my peer group at work etc

@DavidCarlisle If you need more information then I can provide it tomorrow or the day after tomorrow

@Dr.ManuelKuehner no I am just passing by, no need to rush, I haven't checked your updated question i was just catching up with chat here, I'll look later with the viewers i have

Anyone know of good learning resources for Objective C, especially for Mac?

@AlanMunn I just scratched the surface, sadly. :(

@PauloCereda I will not buy this record C, it is scratched

@DavidCarlisle :)

Puh. A package that issues \deadcycles\z@\@@end in \AtEndDocument ...

@UlrikeFischer constants.sty?

@egreg yes.

@UlrikeFischer I don't understand why the package is doing so nasty things.

@UlrikeFischer it really wanted the document to end:-)

@egreg I neither. From the description it only wants to record some labels and it shouldn't need all this low-level stuff.

@egreg it looks like accidental copy from \enddocument

Shall we change the title of this question to "Calling @DavidCarlisle"?

@AlanMunn or @wipet

@yo' Has he ever written a drawing answer?

@AlanMunn I wonder if they have expl3

@DavidCarlisle Part of your @JosephWright will fix it plan?

@AlanMunn are you suggesting there is anything wrong with that as a plan?