Vedanta and Philosophy - 2016-07-17

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Chinmay Sarupria

5:56 AM

@TheDestroyer I think Kalki is already born @Tezz You have posted Adi Shankara's Hari Shankar Stotram hinduism.stackexchange.com/a/11977/3872 Adi Shankara has only used the names of avataras which have already taken birth, "I offer my salutations to Mahavishnu as Kalki-incarnation, who assumes a body of inconceivable splendour"

@KeshavSrinivasan It is very funny, why would people want to worship saints? Do they think they will get a lot of wealth by doing that?

2 hours later…

Keshav Srinivasan

8:28 AM

@ChinmaySarupria Who do you think Kalki is? Do you think he's alive right now or he's born but hasn't fulfilled his task yet? In any case, since you don't believe we're living in the Kali Yuga right now, in your worldview hasn't Kalki already come and completed his mission?

8:43 AM

@ChinmaySarupria that stotra doesn't mean that Shankara assumed Kalki Avatar already happened.... In S.B. also when Akrura sees Vishnus incarnation in water he tells... Namo Buddhaye Suddhaye Daitya Danava Mohine.. Mleechhyapraya Kshetra Hante Namaste Kalki Rupine...

Also see my answer here:... hinduism.stackexchange.com/questions/10801/…

@ChinmaySarupria btw.. I just saw those interviews... They were interesting...

But where do they talk about dinosaurs ?....

@KeshavSrinivasan is there some hint in Valmiki Ramayana stating Hanuman containing portion of Shiva...? I just checked Kiskindha Kanda and I do not find any refrence at all... Do some other Kandas state it?...

2 hours later…

11:08 AM

@ChinmaySarupria Worshiping saints thinking them as Guru or worshiping them for Dharmic needs, such as worshiping them for money if they need money for survival, is not a bad thing.

@Tezz @KeshavSrinivasan Also, source for dialogues of Ravana where he says that he couldn't identify Hanuman as Shiva .

2 hours later…

1:08 PM

@TheDestroyer where did you read Ravana tells he could not identify Shiva (as Hanuman)... ?

Chinmay Sarupria

1:29 PM

@Tezz I think you watched the interview of Sri M, I also gave another link, that of Sun Yogi Uma Shankar, he talks about dinosaurs, in fact he says Babaji told him about dinosaurs and many other interesting thigns

@KeshavSrinivasan It could be the future Kali Yuga

@KeshavSrinivasan Or maybe some other yuga because the concept of Kalki was introduced after making the error in yuga system

Keshav Srinivasan

@Tezz No, there are absolutely no hints or references in the Valmiki Ramayana connecting Hanuman to Shiva. The only Hindu scripture I know of that says Hanuman is an incarnation of Shiva is the Shiva Purana.

@Tezz @TheDestroyer In the animated Hanuman movie that came in 2005, when Ravana is dying he tells Hanuman, "I'm sorry I didn't recognize you as Shiva." But I don't think that has any basis in Hindu scripture, and I don't think it's present in any regional versions of the Ramayana.

1:44 PM

@Tezz in a telugu movie.... when Ravana was dying..

@KeshavSrinivasan @TheDestroyer I don't know whether Adhyatma Ramayana tells Hanuman containing portion of Shiva...

@KeshavSrinivasan however Tulsidas tells "Shankara Suwana Keshari Nandana... Tezz Pratap Mahajaga Vandana....

@ChinmaySarupria oh so.. then I'll watch that too ..

@KeshavSrinivasan Not only Shiva Purana, even Brahmanda Purana says it. Indeed it gives very different story of Hanuman's birth.

Keshav Srinivasan

@Tezz Yeah, several regional versions of the Ramayana says Hanuman is an incarnation of Shiva. The Kamba Ramayana, which is the Tamil version, also says it.

@TheDestroyer maybe Hanuman was incarnation of Shiva at those Kalpas when Shiva Purana and Brahmanda Purana were written...

@KeshavSrinivasan also Ramcharitmanas tells that during race of Ganesh and Kartikeya... Ganesha make round writing the letter Rama in ground.. and thus finally wins the race... Shiva explains that Rama naama contains entire world... Is there any scriptual basis for this story ?

Keshav Srinivasan

2:00 PM

@Tezz I've never heard of the race between Ganesha and Kartikeya being connected to Rama's name. I've only seen one place in the Puranas where the story of the race is given. It's generally hard to find a scriptural basis for a lot of Ganesha stories, because Ganesha became more popular in later times compared to earlier times.

@Tezz According to Shiva Purana, Ganesha circumambulated around Shiva Parvati.. as he thinks there's no universe greater than his parents

@TheDestroyer yes, I also know that... I don't know from where Tulsidas got that idea...

@TheDestroyer Ramcharitmanas also tells that it was due to request of Rama,... Shiva became ready to marry Parvati...

Keshav Srinivasan

@Tezz By the way, in the Shiva Purana version, the purpose of the race is to decide who gets to be married first. But South Indians believe the purpose of the race is to decide who gets a Jnana fruit. That's the basis for a beautiful Tamil poem to Kartikeya which says "Pazhani Appa, Jnana Pazhamni Appa, Tamizh Jnana Pazhamni Appa" which means "Lord of the Palani hill, you are the Jnana fruit, oh Lord, you are the fruit of Tamil Jnana, oh Lord."

@KeshavSrinivasan the race is also described in Pada Purana... in that also contest is who will get married first...

Keshav Srinivasan

@Tezz The basic message is "Kartikeya, why are you getting upset that you didn't get the Jnana fruit in the contest? Don't you realize that you are the Jnana fruit?"

2:10 PM

@KeshavSrinivasan oh!.. maybe it's connected to the name SwamiSkandha

Keshav Srinivasan

@Tezz Yeah, there's a lot of differences between North Indians and South Indians concerning stories involving Ganesha. That's because Ganesha became more popular later on, so there's a lot of confusion. For instance North Indians believe Kartikeya is older than Ganesha, Kartikeya is unmarried, and Ganesha has two wives named Riddhi and Siddhi. But South Indians believe Ganesha is older than Kartikeya, Ganesha is unmarried, and Kartikeya has two wives named Valli and Devasena.

@Tezz I discuss Valli and Devasena in my answer here:

3

A: Wives of Lord Kartikeya

According to South Indian tradition, Kartikeya has two wives, Valli and Devasena (AKA Devanai). As I discuss in this answer, while Valli isn't really mentioned much in Hindu scripture, Devasena definitely is. Her story is told in the Vana Parva of the Mahabharata. Once Devasena was kidnapped by...

Chinmay Sarupria

@KeshavSrinivasan I don't think North Indians believe that Kartikeya is unmarried, they believe that Ganesh is married to Riddhi and Siddhi;Kartikeya to Devasena and Kartikeya is older

Keshav Srinivasan

@ChinmaySarupria I'm pretty sure a lot of North Indians believe that after Kartikeya lost the race, he took a vow of eternal Brahmacharya.

Chinmay Sarupria

@KeshavSrinivasan I am a North Indian and have never heard that Kartikeya is unmarried

Keshav Srinivasan

@ChinmaySarupria Here's what this book says: books.google.com/… "In contrast to his brother Ganesa, Kartikeya is a chaste and perpetual unmarried youth (Kumara) in the north, whereas in the south he is worshipped with two wives: Valli and Devasena."

@ChinmaySarupria Maybe it varies among different places in North India.

Chinmay Sarupria

2:25 PM

@KeshavSrinivasan Even in the serial "Devon Ke Dev Mahadeva", Kartikeya was shown married.

@KeshavSrinivasan What do the scriptures say about this and who is elder?

Keshav Srinivasan

@ChinmaySarupria Well, TV serials like Devon Ke Dev Mahadev draw from a variety of sources.

Chinmay Sarupria

@KeshavSrinivasan Yeah unlike other serials, "Devon ke Dev Mahadeva" was a very good one, I would say the best mythological show of all time.

@ChinmaySarupria Shiva Purana and Skanda Purana clearly says that Ganesha is elder

@ChinmaySarupria No. Devon ke Dev adds many human characteristics to the divine characters. They showed Parvathi Devi as realized before marriage with Shiva and after marriage she again becomes unrealized. She weeps many times in serial which is unrealistic.

I think this is best serial

Om Namah Shivay (TV series)

Om Namah Shivay is an Indian television series portraying Hindu Puranic writings and featuring the divinity Shiva, as well as other god karthik(such as Shakti/Parvati, Brahma, Vishnu, Indra, and Sage Narada). The series is presumably named after the mantra Aum Namah Shivaya. It "depicts the spirituality, divinity and the moving power with which Lord Shiva governs the destiny of the universe." == Story == The plot centers around Lord Shiva and brings Hindu theology to life in a series of interconnected stories. The serial begins with the creation of the universe and the other Devas, then guides...

Keshav Srinivasan

@ChinmaySarupria Oh, I haven't watched it, but I didn't mean "draws from a variety of sources" as a compliment, I meant it as an insult, haha. I meant draws from a lot of sources like unsubstantiated folklore, and it also takes a lot of artistic license.

I'm actually downloading this series. But seeds are low..

@ChinmaySarupria This TV series is considered authentic without any artistic licence. Based only on Puranas.

2:37 PM

@TheDestroyer Om Namha Shivaya shows scriptual stories... but the characters are somehow funny in appearance..

@Tezz i didn't watch it but it was filmed in 90's and we can't expect characters like now.

@Tezz Now-a-days, serial makers are interested only in money not on quality.

@TheDestroyer yes, anyhow... the best depiction is in Devon Ke Dev Mahadev...

Generally Devon ke Dev Mahadev also shows scriptual stories... but they also insert folklores in some places...

@Tezz depiction is best in Mahadev series but story wise this series is best.. And also Mahadev has unnecessary hugs and crying of characters such as Sati, Parvati.. How can she cry? She is Adiparashakti.. Parvati is immediately enlightened after the marriage and she becomes UMA but they missed this.

@TheDestroyer yes, her name becomes Uma before marriage given by Menavati... Manavati accidentally pronounced the name Uma, meaning do not... but she became real Uma (Brahma Vidya Personified swarupa) after being married with Mahadeva...

@Tezz She is enlightened when Shiva censures her that she is black and she does a penance and realizes her self. So, shiva does this to make her realizes and she thus becomes Uma.

2:51 PM

@TheDestroyer Uma is the one who shows Brahman... In Kenopanishad Uma tells about Brahman to Gods... It's only by grace of Uma one can reach to Brahma.... also Shiva Purana states "Parvati ParamaDevi Brahmavidya Pradayini..."

@TheDestroyer in which chapter of Shiva purana that Penance is mentioned...?

@Tezz searching..

Chinmay Sarupria

@TheDestroyer Yes, Devon ke Dev Mahadeva added some unnecessary content but that is fine because they presented the show in a very good manner with excellent graphics and after all, no show is 100% perfect, it's not that they showed everything wrong

@Tezz Shiva Purana has chapter manifestation of Uma where she tests haughty Devas by putting a blade of grass. Devon ke Dev shows this scene after Sagara Madanam with Shiva.

@TheDestroyer I think Shiva tests the Arrogant Gods taking form of Yaksha... AdiShankara Shiva Panchakshara stotra says "Yakshya Swarupaya Jatadharaya..."

Then Uma reveals the Gods that the Yaksha is Shiva...

This is the story present in Kenopanishad...

It takes place after Samundra Manthan because Gods became arrogant after getting Amrita...

Keshav Srinivasan

@Tezz By the way, I've been to the place where Kartikeya married Devasena; see my question here:

2

Q: What scriptures mention the location of Kartikeya's marriage to Devasena?

As I discuss in this answer, Shiva's son Kartikeya, AKA Skanda or Muruga, has two wives, Valli and Devasena. Now I just came back from a trip to India, and one of the places I visited was the Thirupparamkunram Kartikeya temple, which is the place where Kartikeya married Devasena. For those who ...

mythology mahabharata temples kartikeya

3:03 PM

@Tezz Here is Goddess Uma testing Gods. indianscriptures.com/scriptures/puranas-18-puranas-mahapurana/…

@TheDestroyer I had read in Skandha Purana where Shiva tests the Gods...

@Tezz Ok Sruti is final. Kenopanishad story is authentic or we can apply Kalpabeda

Keshav Srinivasan

@Tezz @TheDestroyer Here is what the Shiva Purana says about Shiva testing the gods: gdurl.com/pZMj By the way, Kanchi Mahaperiyava, i.e. the previous head of the Kanchipuram Shankaracharya Mutt, believed that the Kena Upanishad story took place in Kalahasti.

@TheDestroyer yes, also we can apply Shiva-Shakti Abheda... ie. Shiva and Shakti are same...

@KeshavSrinivasan What's the meaning of that tamil name? Thiru is hill and rest...?

Keshav Srinivasan

3:08 PM

@Tezz @TheDestroyer In any case the Kena Upanishad doesn't say that the Yaksha was Shiva, it just says that the Yaksha was Brahman.

@KeshavSrinivasan you are giving previous link...

@KeshavSrinivasan You posted Same Skanda marriage link

@KeshavSrinivasan yes, it's the charactersistic feature of principle 10 Upanishads... They do not personify Brahman... They only give hint...

@KeshavSrinivasan Even i couldn't find origin of Kalahasti in Puranas. I found it from their site. Kalahasti Temple is intriguing and some what special.

Keshav Srinivasan

@Tezz @TheDestroyer Oh sorry, I fixed it now.

3:11 PM

2

Q: Legend behind origin of Vayu Lingam in Srikalahasti and its meaning

There are many legends behind Srikalahasti temple, which is one of the Panchaboota Kshetras. But none of these legends explain origin of Vayu Lingam which is believed to be "Swayambhu" (self-manifested). Famous among of all legends is story of three staunch devotees "Sri (spider), Kala (serpent...

shiva scripture temples

Keshav Srinivasan

@TheDestroyer Thiru means holy, Param means supreme, and Kunram means hill.

@Tezz Kalahasti is famous for rahu Ketu pooja and it has Vayu element. Temple is not closed even during eclipses. This is one such question about this temple.

6

Q: What is the significance of the Srikalahasti Temple?

As we all know, temples remain closed when there is an eclipse. But the Srikalahasti temple remains open even on eclipses, and also they do special poojas on that occasion. Please share the story behind this.

shiva temples navagraha

@TheDestroyer @KeshavSrinivasan have you found some refrences mentioning Hanuman freeing Navagrahas from Ravana court?...

@KeshavSrinivasan where did Shiva Parvati marriage took place...?

@KeshavSrinivasan Yeah sorry. It looks like i forgot the Tamil i learned. Thiru means Sri right. Tirupati is lord of Sri or in telugu we call Srivaru or husband of Lakshmi.

Keshav Srinivasan

@Tezz No, I've never heard of the Navagraha being trapped.

3:22 PM

@Tezz In kashi i think

@TheDestroyer shouldn't it took place in Himalayan region?...

@Tezz not sure read somewhere.

Keshav Srinivasan

@TheDestroyer Yes, Thiru is the Tamil equivalent of Sri, which depending on the context can either be an honorific meaning sacred, or a name of Lakshmi.

@TheDestroyer in Nepal there is a Swayambhu Jwala burning inside water in Muktinath area, Himalayan region... it is believed that flame was lit up by Vishnu during marriage of Shiva and Parvati...

Keshav Srinivasan

@Tezz I always heard that Shiva and Parvati got married in the Triyugi Narayan temple, which is located at where Parvati's father Himavat's capital city used to be. See this Wikipedia article:

Triyuginarayan Temple

Triyuginarayan Temple (Sanskrit: त्रियुगी-नारायण) is a Hindu temple located in the Triyuginarayan village in Rudraprayag district, Uttarakhand. The ancient temple is dedicated to god Vishnu. Its fame is credited to the legend of god Shiva’s marriage to goddess Parvati witnessed by Vishnu at this venue and is thus a popular pilgrimage centre. A special feature of this temple is a perpetual fire, that burns in front of the temple. The flame is believed to burn from the times of the divine marriage. Thus, the temple is also known as Akhand Dhuni temple. The temple courtyard is also the source of a...

3:27 PM

@Tezz Ohh.. Are there only 8 places of Swayambhu Vishnu?

@KeshavSrinivasan oh... maybe Lord Vishnu lit in way at Muktinath while coming from Kailash...

Keshav Srinivasan

@TheDestroyer There is a notion of 8 Swayamvyakta Kshetras of Vishnu:

divyainfo.blogspot.com/2010/12/…

@TheDestroyer by the way... the Muktinath area is highly sacred... from there Gandaki/ Narayani River arises where Shaligram are found...

@KeshavSrinivasan i think they missed other places such as Narasimha Avatar's places though it is contested.

If we break Shaligram stone we can find Sankha, Chakra, Gada and Padma inside it...

Keshav Srinivasan

3:31 PM

@TheDestroyer I think these may just be the most important eight.

@KeshavSrinivasan does the "Salagramam" mentioned in that Shloka means Muktinath area?...

Keshav Srinivasan

@TheDestroyer By the way, concerning Swayambhu Vishnu temples, the Kanchi Shankaracharya made a bizarre statement that only Vaikhanasa Agamas are allowed in them; see my question here:

2

Q: Are Vaikhanasa Agamas supposed to be followed in Swayambhu Vishnu temples?

As I discuss in this answer, one of the early movements that was important in the development of Vaishnavism was the ancient Pancharatra movement, whose sacred texts consisted of detailed procedures to worship the sage Narayana, an ancient incarnation of Vishnu. Since the Pancharatra texts origin...

vishnu temples vaishnavism pancharatra

@Tezz Yes, Salagramam does refer to Muktinath.

@Tezz Have you been to Muktinath?

@KeshavSrinivasan I haven't been there... it's in Himalayan area...

People believe Having Darshan of Muktinath grants Mukti just after this birth...

@KeshavSrinivasan btw Muktinath is also a revered site for Buddhista...

Keshav Srinivasan

@Tezz By the way, one of the questions I'm planning to post on the site is related to Shaligrama stones. Shaligrama stones are fossilized remains of ancient mollusks called Ammonites. My question would be about whether Ammonites are mentioned in Hindu scripture, and if so whether they were some kind of sacred animal connected to Vishnu.

@KeshavSrinivasan aren't Shaligram manifestation due to curse of Vrinda?...

3:40 PM

@KeshavSrinivasan Ramana Deekshitulu, chief priest of TTD says Saligrama stone in Tirupati is extraterrestrial.

@KeshavSrinivasan He has PHD in microbiology

@KeshavSrinivasan it's interesting that... Shalagrama contains marks of Sankha, Chakra, Gada and Padma very well arranged as circle inside it...

Keshav Srinivasan

@Tezz Yes, they are due to that curse. But I want to know if there's a way to reconcile that story with the scientific finding that they're fossilized remains of Ammonites. Perhaps Vishnu first turned into a bunch of Ammonites, and then when the Ammonites died they became Shaligrama stones.

@KeshavSrinivasan I Don't think any scripture mention about Ammonites... if they mention also they will use Sanskrit name and we wouldn't understand...

Keshav Srinivasan

@Tezz Of course they won't use the English term ammonite, but I want to see if they at least acknowledge that the stones are remains of some animal. Like Hindu scripture does acknowledge that conchshells are the remains of animals.

@KeshavSrinivasan conch shell as animal is directly seen... so it is not big thing...

@KeshavSrinivasan in which Yuga did cursing by Vrinda took place...?

Keshav Srinivasan

3:49 PM

@Tezz I'm not sure, I'm not very familiar with the stories of Vrindha and Tulasi.

4:13 PM

@KeshavSrinivasan I think you can answer this question... hinduism.stackexchange.com/questions/14138/everything-is-yajna in our previous conversion you had told that verse to me...

Chinmay Sarupria

@KeshavSrinivasan What was Triyuginarayan temple called before? Because it looks like this is another name created after yuga error. I think it was just called narayan temple

@ChinmaySarupria how are connecting the term Triyugi to yuga length?... It's just only related to no. Of yuga ... not duration of Yuga...

@KeshavSrinivasan you told it here.. chat.stackexchange.com/transcript/38640?m=29750310#29750310

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