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2:57 AM
Hey guys, support this proposal to add non-English character support for tags! meta.stackoverflow.com/questions/135929/…
 
 
5 hours later…
7:49 AM
@kotekzot I think we agree on the Russian-English translation matter
Just to be clear, I'm all for questions like "What does [obscure Russian idiom] mean?" both in Russian and English.
But the site shouldn't be completely symmetric. The question "How to express [something] in one word in Russian?" is OK, but "How to express [something] in one word in English?" isn't, even if "[something]" is written in Russian.
If that stance isn't clear from my answer, you're very welcome to edit it accordingly.
 
8:46 AM
@TimN rotten luck, I can't even suggest edits on meta for some reason! But yes, I think that's a reasonable stance. If you could edit that into your answer it would be perfect. English [word-choice] questions are a perfect fit for English.SE anyway.
 
9:19 AM
@kotekzot: Might have managed to clarify it now.
 
9:36 AM
გამარჯობა!
 
@TimN it's perfect!
@hippietrail chinqui!
 
what does "vaime" mean? it's one of the most common russian words in hear in georgia mixed in with georgian
 
If only there was a Q&A site where you could ask that :)
 
9:55 AM
definitely too basic though
 
 
4 hours later…
2:22 PM
Hi guys, I'd like to suggest to rename the tag "future" to "future-tense". Is here a proper place to discuss such things?
 
Yes, the meta site.
 
I don't have enough reputation to post questions there :(
 
Oh... Well, it's going to take quite a while before we get a moderator who is going to be able to rename the tags and manage them otherwise.
So you could as well get the necessary amount of reputation points to post questions on the meta.
 
ОК, and how are the tags created now?
 
They are created by users when they post the questions. In the private beta, everyone has the privilege of creating tags.
The requirements are going to be raised once we are out of the private/public beta phase.
1250 reps needed to create tag synonyms in private beta.
1 reputation point to create a tag.
(For a mature site, the requirements are 2500 and 300, respectively: english.stackexchange.com/privileges)
could as well be a tag synonym for
@hippietrail I'm not sure that's a Russian word… en.wiktionary.org/wiki/… The Russian equivalent would be ой or горе мне, I imagine.
 
2:43 PM
Hello!
 
Hey.
 
Thanks for inviting me over here. I don't speak any Russian, though, alas, as you know.
 
You have been to Russia, though!
And we are not exactly speaking in Russian either.
 
I have, yes!
And so I see.
 
3:06 PM
<faux Russian sounds>
 
3:23 PM
hello again
 
Dobry Dyen!
Is that Russian?
I remember saying that when I was in mother Russia.
 
sounds russian to me but i mix up all my slavic languages and i've never been to russia though i'm exposed to tons of 2nd language speakers here in georgia
 
@Cerberus: it is Russian, it means Good day
 
3:40 PM
@texnic OK glad I got it right.
 
 
2 hours later…
6:02 PM
Having развесистая клюква in the design would be swell!
 
 
2 hours later…
7:59 PM
Hey @kotekzot. Do you think we should follow the EL&U example and start enforcing italics for formatting words that are not used but mentioned?
0
A: Using code spans to format words in another language?

VitalyIn the early days of English Language & Usage, people there strived to enforce the well-known convention of italicizing inlined words and phrases (not necessarily in another language). Apart from its being a generally accepted practice, it is aesthetically pleasing. Examples abound: Myse...

Unless we want to work out our tagging guidelines first and then fix the tags and formatting in one fell swoop.
 
8:20 PM
@Vitaly Enforcing?
I don't believe they are "enforced" by people.
I use quotation marks too when the mood strikes me.
I don't believe in a strict separation between what normally goes in quotation marks and what goes in italics.
 
@Cerberus Why are you bringing up quotation marks if the issue at hand is code vs italics?
 
So I would prefer not to use code formatting for non-code, but, as long as it is done in a context where no real code is used, and it is clearly distinguishable from ordinary text, I don't have a real problem with it.
@Vitaly Because you included anything other than italics.
23 mins ago, by Vitaly
Hey @kotekzot. Do you think we should follow the EL&U example and start enforcing italics for formatting words that are not used but mentioned?
This means removing code formatting and anything else.
Unless you only meant code formatting.
 
I only meant code formatting, yes. That was brought up in the context of our meta question:
3
Q: Using code spans to format words in another language?

kotekzotI've noticed several instances of code spans (Created with a pair of ` backticks) being used to format words or phrases in another language. Should we consider this type of formatting proper, or do we change it to double quotation marks (or something else)?

In my answer to that question, I have also linked to the relevant EL&U question:
8
A: What emphasis to use when referring to words?

nohatI usually use italics. Sometimes I use “double quotation marks” when referring to long phrases or whole sentences. I would stay away from bold, verbatim, or plain.

 
I think not using code formatting yourself is not quite the same as enforcing italics.
 
Nohat's answer doesn't exactly exclude using double quotation marks for formatting long-ish phrases and sentences.
@Cerberus And by “enforcing italics” I meant going through all the poorly formatted questions at RL&U and changing the code to italics. Eventually, people are going to pick up.
 
8:27 PM
Okay, well, I don't see much of that happening on ELU?
 
@Vitaly I'm not a big fan of using code blocks/spans for formatting, but my main concerns is that we are seeing edits that change one formatting scheme to another. that's going to pollute the main page and could lead to edit wars.
 
@Cerberus Do you remember the first two months of EL&U or so?
 
I wasn't a member from the beginning.
I think I joined in November 2010 or so.
You?
 
italics could work, but i think quote spans would be the best solution for purposes of visibility and semantics
 
@Cerberus I wasn't either. It is, however, in the transcript.
 
8:30 PM
@kotekzot Why visibility? The grey background doesn't look that distinguishable to me, at any rate not much more so than italics?
And what do you mean by semantics?
Hehe.
 
@Cerberus quote spans have an orange background
semantic markup
it's a web thing
 
Ohh, wait, yes, quote blocks.
I wasn't thinking of those.
 
quote blocks
not code blocks
code blocks are grey
 
For multi-line quotations, those are absolutely preferable. And for short quotations, I would certainly prefer quotation marks over code formatting.
@kotekzot Oops typo, I meant quote blocks.
 
@Cerberus And for words?
 
8:32 PM
how do i ember a question/answer?
 
@kotekzot Just copy the link and paste it here as a single line.
 
1
A: How do I specify a non-whole number of nouns which have no singular form?

remRegarding building phrases combining полтора and сутки, one should bear in mind that these words cannot be put together when the word сутки is either in именительный (latin: nominative) or in винительный (latin: accusative) grammatical case. So, in your case it's better to say: Это длилось...

don't those orange quote blocks look nice?
 
@Vitaly If it is really a quotation, and there are no good reasons (like very weird characters or spacing required), I would strongly prefer quotation marks for quoted words.
 
if we could use those inline it would be perfect imo
@Vitaly yes, thank you.
 
8:33 PM
@Cerberus I would strongly prefer italics for words that are not used but mentioned (the use–mention distinction from philosophy).
The word ait is 3 letters long.
The word “ait” is 3 letters long.
 
@Vitaly I would certainly prefer italics there instead of c.f.; but I am undecided about enforcing them, mainly because that is probably not going to work, so the site will be inconsistent anyway; and secondly because some people will be whining and crying and it may not be worth the fuss.
@Vitaly It looks better with straight quotation marks.
 
@Cerberus This reminds me of something in the FAQ…
> If you are not comfortable with the idea of your contributions being collaboratively edited by other trusted users, this may not be the site for you.
 
I sort of agree that italics are always better if you're not quoting a specific instance of a word, used on a specific occasion. Otherwise, perhaps quotations marks may be better. But in either case I don't have a problem with either format I think.
 
well, it's not like everyone follows the elements of style either
 
@Vitaly You know what people are like...
 
8:37 PM
@Cerberus Ha.
 
1. They don't read FAQs. 2. They don't remember FAQs if they read them. 3. They will still whine even if they remember.
Including myself.
On all three points.
And I am also not consistent.
And, as I said, the distinction between a specific quotation and a general "reported" word is not always clear.
In fact I wouldn't even know how to explain it.
 
i don't think we should be going out of our way to make sure every post perfectly conforms to the formatting guidelines, but it would be helpful to have them in case an edit war breaks out or something, or somebody decides that a 100 questions that don't conform to their personal preferences need to be edited asap
i've seen people changing formatting from one pattern to another for no reason already, and we only have 30 questions and 6 avid users
 
Heh. Fair enough.
So let Vitaly draft the formatting rules.
 
I can't wait until RegDwight returns from his vacation and starts editing all those double hyphens into proper em dashes. :P
 
They should specify when to use quotation marks, when to use block quotations, italics, bold formatting, and code formatting.
Oh I like real dashes.
A real man uses real dashes.
 
8:44 PM
so what do you guys think about inline quote spans? yay/nay?
 
Inline quote spans?
What Vitaly just did there?
 
@Cerberus code.
 
Oh...
 
no, not code
code spans suck
quote spans that i proposed on meta
 
8:47 PM
Then what do you mean?
Not quote blocks?
 
1
Q: Can we have inline quotes?

kotekzotWe're trying to figure out how to format inline quotes, which is something we're going to be doing a lot, being a language site. While using inline code spans has merits for readability, it breaks style with blockquotes and isn't styled quite as nice, not to mention being horrible semantically. ...

ok, bear with me
 
Oh, that.
 
there are code blocks
they start a new line
there are code spans, they do not
 
Well, it's unlikely anyone is going to implement it when we already have italics.
 
I can't see that page.
 
8:48 PM
I couldn't even get them to do small-caps:
 
@Cerberus are you getting an error?
 
What are code spans?
 
7
Q: Interlinear glossing and small caps for sites like Russian Language and Usage

VitalyIt is a common notational convention in linguistics to use small capitals in interlinear glossing. Using good ol' plain capitals for that is almost like not using the [code][/code] tag for code snippets. To quote Wikipedia, Grammatical terms are commonly abbreviated and printed in SMALL CAPIT...

 
@kotekzot I'm not in the private beta.
 
you want an invite?
anyway, quote spans
 
8:49 PM
I don't know anything about Russian other than dobry dyen en pazyalsta, so...
 
a span is an inline element, a block is a, well, block element
 
@kotekzot What are those, if not quote blocks?
 
an inline element can be inside a line and not break it
 
@kotekzot Sorry, I don't know what that means.
 
a block element breaks a line
 
8:50 PM
Oh.
 
we have inline code spans and code blocks
we also have quote blocks
 
I still have no idea what you mean.
 
but not quote spans
 
You mean this is something that does not exist as of yet?
 
have you ever used code blocks and code spans?
yes, it's a feature-req i posted
 
8:51 PM
@kotekzot Probably, but I am not 100 % sure what a code span looks like.
Is this a code span?
I think I have also used code blocks on SE once or twice.
@kotekzot OK I see.
 
So essentially you want this:
 
yes, it is
if it were a code block it would be like
 
is
this
 
But we already have "quotation marks", so do we really need quotation spans?
 
8:53 PM
a code span?
 
> This is an quotation block in chat.
 
a code block breaks the line, a code span does not
@Vitaly that's perfect, i'm going to attach that to my feature-req
 
@Vitaly So...the difference between this and code spans is that these are yellow?
I would interpret that as code formatting.
 
@Cerberus code spans also use monospace glyphs, unlike quotation blocks
 
I would just use quotation marks for a "quotation span".
@Vitaly Yeah OK, but those are often not very noticeable.
 
8:54 PM
I would just use italics.
 
Right, depending on the situation.
 
@kotekzot the font-family attribute is wrong, though
 
it's plenty good as is
 
non-monospace glyphs there ^
 
thanks so much :3
 
8:59 PM
I still pledge allegiance to italics!
 
and i'll be perfectly happy to support italics if that's what the community agrees on
 
I vote for italics and quotation marks as appropriate.
 
> Here's an example of what these might look like by Vitality:
It's Vitaly. Виталий.
 
durr, sorry
 
Except that I am a Metic.
 
9:04 PM
No problem.
 
9:23 PM
0
Q: Elementary understanding of the concept aspect

Em1First, for the aim of this question I must say that I am not familiar with the Russian language, but I read a bit about it and am curious. I've never learned Russian before and just able to say a handful of sentences. Thus the intention of this question is to get a rough understanding of what the...

> So, it's very confusing to me how a language can work with few tenses. So, what does the aspect cover? Is it (as the name suggests) the equivalent to the English perfect tenses or is it actually more?
I don't even know if I should point out that what is traditionally referred to as “Present Perfect” in English is best analyzed as the present tense combined with the perfect aspect.
How do you even answer that question without also explaining the tense–aspectual system of English?
 
<stares into the black>
 
9:38 PM
I like that tactic of yours.
 
It is a tactic?
 
Don't get me wrong, I'm following your example right now. I'm trying to ignore that aspect question.
 
I'm afraid you misunderstand.
I can't see the page.
Otherwise I might use the same tactic.
 
@Cerberus Check your email.
 
9:54 PM
Could someone try to ping me in a comment thread (e.g. meta.russian.stackexchange.com/questions/24 ) ?
I don't seem to get notifications, but want to make sure before bothering someone to change my name
 
@TimN Done.
Let me know when to delete my comment.
 
@Vitaly Thanks, you can delete it now
Did it at least auto-complete?
 
Yeah, it did.
 
Ok, thanks
 
No problem.
(By the way, typing the at sign requires switching to an English layout anyway.)
 
10:04 PM
I've tried all my keys now and it looks like you're right
 
Hello.
 
Hey.
 
@Vit Is there anything you need to discuss in particular?
 
@Mahnax Your intention to learn Russian? :P No, not really. I recalled that you wanted to learn Russian and thought you'd be interested in this room.
 
@Vitaly I popped in here around 45 seconds after the private Beta started.
I cast the very first upvote on the site, as well.
 
10:07 PM
@Mahnax Heh, okay.
 
School is almost done; I will start my Russian studies once my exams are finished.
Пушка.
 
@TimN Have they disabled that feature where you can copy your profile information to all associated StackExchange profiles?
 
Thanks!
 
@Vitaly I just remembered that and edited the comment. If Latin 'T' solves the problem I'd prefer that, otherwise I can change to "Tim N" by myself.
 
 
1 hour later…
11:33 PM
Ah what does something like "yak-tsup-tsop" mean?
 
@Cerberus Yak-tsup-tsop. Also, I think you need to chime in here:
-3
A: Good tagging practice

bonomoI don't think anybody cares about this at this moment, later on we can review the tags and give them appropriate names. The key thing with tags is to make only high ranked users able to edit them.

Unless, of course, you are one of those! :P
 
@Vitaly Eh I'm afraid I don't understand.
 
@Cerberus Як-цуп-цоп is how the mondegreen Russian lyrics of that song starts.
 
Oh...
@Vitaly Ehm what am I supposed to say? I have little to add.
I have never been involved with tags.
Never used them either.
I'm sure your and Hippitrail's approach is the right one.
 
@Vitaly to that song start*
 

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