Moonwards

kim holder

00:36

docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/…

thinking about how to get pure metal oxides.... it is really important....

so i made the spreadsheet, hoping that if one has a furnace that can take the heat, one can control temperature and pressure and use that to do high-temperature fractional distillation

and i'm thinking about asking on Earth Science why one couldn't melt everything, hold it at a high temperature by preventing it from losing heat, and let it settle into layers by density.

i was working on the timeline, but it really bothers me when i know that a big piece of the plan depends on doing something and i have no idea how it could be done.

so, i'm trying to resolve this issue.

Hohmannfan

01:40

If you want it to separate the lava into layers, you probably need a centrifuge.

kim holder

i thought about that.... it would be worth it if it worked.

Hohmannfan

Lunar gravity is just not exactly great on its own for separating densities

kim holder

i was just looking at the composition of highland rocks. It seems that if one can get pure rocks of highland materials, it is pretty likely you could find pure plagioclase feldspar

in that case, the iron, magnesium, and titanium would be eliminated

and also all the minor constituents except the sodium oxide

if you could separate the alumina, because it is really much heavier than the others, well that stuff is valuable

and if you boil the remainder, the sodium oxide is released long before the silica, and after both are boiled off, that just leaves calcia

that's an awful lot of energy though...

Hohmannfan

And probably pretty massive and sophisticated equipment.

kim holder

i'm redoing my question on Earth Science to refer only to anorthite or anorthosite

settlement.arc.nasa.gov/spaceres/V-4.html

well, the alumina and sodium oxide are really quite different molecular masses

it is the calcia and silica that are problematic

Hohmannfan

01:54

Molecular mass is not proportional to density though.

kim holder

but if it is all melted, does that matter?

actually, the calcia melts at a much higher temperature than the others, it could be left as the only remaining solid, maybe, in tiny crystals mixed all through it.

Hohmannfan

Maybe that is a better way to separate things, by the temperature they melt.

kim holder

but that doesn't help you unless you can get them divided into layers. how else would you get out just the liquid?

basalt melts at a temperature lower than any of the constituent metal oxides, but that is just because the weakest bits of the crystal lattice break apart. All the metal oxides are still there.

Hohmannfan

RE density of liquids: methane and water have pretty much the same molecular mass, but liquid methane has less than half the density of water. So not necessary a proportionality there either. It just holds for gasses.

kim holder

hm.

i don't know how to go about researching this.

Hohmannfan

02:01

To read about common industrial processes can give you some ideas, and besides, it is entertaining.

kim holder

Aluminium oxide

Aluminium oxide is a chemical compound of aluminium and oxygen with the chemical formula Al2O3. It is the most commonly occurring of several aluminium oxides, and specifically identified as aluminium(III) oxide. It is commonly called alumina, and may also be called aloxide, aloxite, or alundum depending on particular forms or applications. It occurs naturally in its crystalline polymorphic phase α-Al2O3 as the mineral corundum, varieties of which form the precious gemstones ruby and sapphire. Al2O3 is significant in its use to produce aluminium metal, as an abrasive owing to its hardness, and as...

Hohmannfan

An interesting material.

kim holder

that section on alumina says that its density close to its melting point is 2.93, while the solid has a density of 3.95 to 4.1 g/cm3

i have gotten all eager about fused quartz though. Much simpler to produce than sapphire.

so i really want some pure silica

> Molten silica exhibits several peculiar physical characteristics that are similar to the ones observed in liquid water: negative temperature expansion, density maximum (at temperatures ~5000 °C), and a heat capacity minimum.[19] Its density decreases from 2.08 g/cm3 at 1950 °C to 2.03 g/cm3 at 2200 °C.

well, that's a decent difference from alumina

doesn't have the info for calcia...

Hohmannfan

Any idea about the viscosity of it?

kim holder

it isn't stable on Earth for any length of time

calcia, that is - it reacts with the air

basalt lava is highly viscous when very hot, and i have read it is runnier on the moon

though i couldn't tell you where...

an anorthosite melt? couldn't tell you.

Hohmannfan

02:11

High viscosity? Well, that is bad. Separating syrup by density is hard.

kim holder

oh - opposite then. low viscosity.

i get that term mixed up.

it was described as the viscosity of 'light motor oil'

i better make dinner.... i'll obsess more about this later...

you, of course, should be asleep :)

Hohmannfan

I just randomly woke up in the middle of the night :)

kim holder

i have to deal with the fact that i usually think best when it is late, but my husband is a morning person

so i try to put things down and turn my mind to getting ready for bed, for the sake of domestic happiness

it usually works okay now.

kim holder

16:46

phobosorbust.blogspot.mx/2016/09/…

some parts of that are quite relevant. It gets into the difficulty of cooling in the low temperature range needed for steam turbines.

maybe there is some good way to use heat sinks to aid the process, there is no lack of available rocks, and perhaps two systems could be set up, and the coolant loop could alternate between them so one is cooled during the cold night while the other does cooling duty.

Hohmannfan

Ah, Chris Wolfe, it is definitely worth it to read the things he writes.

kim holder

17:14

he brings up the matter of radiation shielding for people riding a nuclear ship. maybe that makes the idea of having a crew module that can go on the nuclear shuttles impractical.

Hohmannfan

It may be beneficial to keep cargo and crew on separate landers. If omitting shielding for the cargo landers saves mass, then I would go for it and just use another craft for crew.

kim holder

i suppose they should have some shielding anyhow, so they don't irradiate the cargo.

Hohmannfan

Some cargo is fine with that.

Should we have a section on the site for example numbers? For things like 'what is likely the performance of a nuclear rocket' or 'what is the mass of a lunar elevator'. Just to have something for reference, and to update if we can find more accurate information.

A data sheet.

kim holder

my feeling has been i'd like to set up the layout so different levels of detail about everything is easily available. Maybe something like different levels of accordion style expansion, and also tooltips that can be expanded for more detail.

Hohmannfan

Expandable lists?

kim holder

17:24

perhaps a layout that combines vertical and horizontal scrolling, so the basic stuff is on the left and if you want more detail you scroll that section to the right

yep, expandable lists sounds like a good option

i think it will take a combination to make it really rich with information, but also clearly laid out and easy to navigate.

i'm having all sorts of thoughts about different bits. i'm going to start more whiteboards to get them down, and organize them later. the whiteboards do seem like they will work much better if there are a bunch of them on different topics.

Hohmannfan

Sample mock up:

kim holder

yep. though that looks like a menu. we're talking about items in the text and media that can be expanded, right?

Hohmannfan

Surely, we are remembering stuff ourselves, bookmarking resources, and creating spreadsheets. But that information is not available to the visitors.

@kimholder Right.

It was just a this-is-what-I-mean-when-I-say-expandable-list

kim holder

yeah, actually i tend to have so many different aspects that i look at, at different moments, i often forget an idea i had before i get it down

for instance, i just started a transport system whiteboard and i have forgotten the potentially good idea i had about nuclear shuttles that i wanted to put there.

Hohmannfan

I can try to make an experimental section on the learn page at github. If it turns out to look good, it can be incorporated later.

kim holder

17:36

sounds good

oh cool, you can embed documents from google drive in a whiteboard, change the spreadsheet or whatever, and then update it on the whiteboard so it is current

Hohmannfan

The lists thing can be done without js, the <details> tag hides everything inside it, except for things inside a <summary> tag. If you click on it, it shows everything.

...and I tested nesting. Works as expected.

kim holder

not supported by... guess who? :D

Hohmannfan

who?

kim holder

Edge

the microsoft edge. they seem to think they still have one.

i am alright with going with html 5 and not worrying about support for older browsers. don't know that i'm comfortable cutting out IE

Hohmannfan

Well, it is just going to show a fully expanded list to them. If the Edge users can stomach the that terrible browser, that should be acceptable

kim holder

17:48

:D yes. think like an edge user. i see your point.

those are excellent tags. i was completely unaware.

Hohmannfan

All browsers just ignore unknown tags, so html5-incompatible browsers are just auto-expanding the list.

No big deal.

That was the original deal with the <noscript> tag. Any message inside that tag was displayed to all the browsers not understanding it.

HTML5 is great, it makes flash, java applets for web, silverlight, and other questionable stuff obsolete. The best way to support the standard is to use it.

kim holder

agreed

Hohmannfan

The css on the site now does not make it entirely clear the list can be expanded. Can I throw in a "details { cursor: pointer; }" in the style sheet?

kim holder

sure, go right ahead

make changes as you see fit. just try to let me know so i stay up to date, in case i don't look at the site for a while and don't notice.

for significant changes, it is probably best to do it on the 'test' site on GitHub

but only for big things, and don't worry about that on Learn - that is entirely your project right now.

Hohmannfan

18:03

I mostly do changes on the github test site anyway, that is what the supposed work-flow is like, right?

Are you sure about what everything in that main.css sheet does? It is kind of complex.

kim holder

yeah, but since you have access to both, i could see doing some quick changes on the main site and then updating the github site later. after all, it is just you and i right now.

Hohmannfan

Wait, I better make that a .details class. I do not really want everything inside the list to change the pointer.

kim holder

yes, sometimes i have to think for a minute about bits of the css, but i know how all of it works. i added some notes, but they are not in the version on the main page because it made the file larger.

github.com/briligg/moonwards/blob/gh-pages/css/mainNotes.css

that one has notes

Hohmannfan

How are the versions synced?

kim holder

um....

yeah, i sort of made it and then didn't think about it again until you mentioned it...

i tend to have an old-school knee-jerk reaction of trying to save every kb i can

Hohmannfan

18:08

#howToNotDoVersionControl

The main page is actually kind of heavy at the moment, I can try to do a flame analysis on it.

kim holder

i don't know why i even think about text file size when i have loaded the site with media files of several Mb

i'll transfer those notes to the main.css doc

Hohmannfan

WHY is Moonwards making requests to the following third-parties?
googleads.g.doubleclick.net
static.doubleclick.net
connect.facebook.net
d.adroll.com
s.adroll.com
You better have a VERY good explanation!

kim holder

uh, that would be i wasn't aware that was happening...

i just code html and css. everything else is a mystery to me.

where does it tell you that?

Hohmannfan

EFF's privacy badger. It reports the third party services used by sites you visit.

kim holder

would that come through the sketchfab or youtube video on the page?

Hohmannfan

18:24

I found several other things as well. Some of them are there because of google-analytics. You did not actually remove it?

kim holder

i thought i had...

the code should be gone, i thought i got it all

Hohmannfan

well, it is not, it still creates a ton of cookies, calls a lot of scripts, and causes most of the loading time.

kim holder

i don't understand that at all. really.

you can see the heads in the pages, they don't have anything like that

they have stuff to create the favicon, and to get the font,

Hohmannfan

I can go through the source code.

kim holder

oh, i see - if i go to the sources tab when i press f12 in chrome, it shows all that. hm.

Hohmannfan

18:37

Summary: Simply loading the Moonwards front pages calls 12 external third parties, several of them executing add-related scripts.

I can not be a part of that. Send me a message if you have cleaned your website and you want me back.

kim holder

i don't know where they come from!

i didn't put them there. you are welcome to get rid of them, i don't know how

it looks like they are there because of sketchfab and youtube.

using sketchfab has allowed me to post interactive 3d models of the colony long before i have learned how to make those myself. youtube allowed me to put in the flythrough, there is no way i could have done it otherwise

it comes with the service (which is free).

the only way i could get rid of that is to cut out those embedded items, and that doesn't seem like a good idea.

i never checked that, it is only because you mentioned it that i went looking for where it shows that in the console, it would never have occurred to me to do that otherwise

@Hohmannfan am i talking to myself here?

i don't get it Hoh, you can see the head sections of the pages, it says right there that nothing is called except what i already mentioned - the favicons and the font. you can see there is no reference to google analytics. at the very least, i'd expect you not to be angry at me about this.

Hohmannfan

19:05

Seems like a non-free component is now an incorporated part of the workflow of the project. From the Sketchfab terms:
"3.3. Service and Content License. We grant you a limited, non-exclusive, non-sublicensable and non-transferable license to use the Services as they are provided to you by us, only as set forth in this Agreement. Except as expressly permitted in this Agreement, you may not reproduce, distribute, adapt, modify, translate, create derivative works from, publish or otherwise use any portion of the Services or Sketchfab Content for any purpose without express prior written permis…

I am not angry, in this regard, I act like a robot. The moment the tool chain is open again, I am no longer putting any work on hold.

As I see it, you need a web displayer for 3D models. That is what I am working on now to find.

kim holder

thank you...

though that would still leave youtube

it might be necessary to do them in blend4web instead, it might not be all that hard to learn to do that now

Hohmannfan

Experiments in progress. I need the "First lunar habitats" model. Can you upload it to GitHub?

kim holder

it's the one called Dugout_Sketchfab_with_images

i think you have it actually

Hohmannfan

Oh

Hohmannfan

19:45

Here. The third model from the top is blend4web. Some of your models have no lamps in them. I had to add a light source in the model, but it is still kind of dark. Anyway: It works!

kim holder

:O awesome!

that model is extremely old and due for deletion anyhow...

Hohmannfan

I know, but it was small and lightweight for testing.

kim holder

that didn't take long. it seems then i could learn it too, unless there is background stuff about blend4web i'd need to go through

but what about the text?

Hohmannfan

Is the text an integrated part of the blender model?

kim holder

oh wow, all sorts of buttons pop up when you hover over the corner

@Hohmannfan no, i'd need to get it from the sketchfab model

Hohmannfan

19:49

Those buttons are just in the standard settings. I did not tweak anything.

Mostly, the work you have to do with the models is to add lightning.

kim holder

the lighting was also done by the sketchfab tool

Hohmannfan

The buttons seems to be navigations, explanations of the navigation, vr, fullscreen, and social media sharing.

kim holder

it looks set up to put in the kind of thing the text was

Hohmannfan

@kimholder Well, things that are not in the model can not magically appear in it.

But if you can find a way to add text notes in blender, it should be enough.

kim holder

yeah, but i mean it looks like blend4web has provided a template where that can easily be added

Hohmannfan

19:54

Question: How do you render things without lightening your models?

kim holder

s/lightening/lighting

when you are working on them it isn't needed, and when they are uploaded to sketchfab, it ignores the lights you made anyhow.

Hohmannfan

> sed command applied to internal dictionary of Hoh.

kim holder

you have to add the lights through the tools sketchfab provides, probably has to do with controlling the size of the models, it restricts the number of lamps you can use.

@Hohmannfan lightening is actually also a word, but it refers to decreasing the weight of something, whereas lighting refers to setting up light sources.

Hohmannfan

Well, b4w is more directly tied to the blender models, editing is done in blender and not in another tool

kim holder

so the file would live on the host service server only? or is blend4web involved?

Hohmannfan

19:59

The file is on github now. No external site involved.

> Hoh greps for 'lighting', and looks for 'weight' in surrounding context. Changing match back to 'lightening'

The b4w model is an html file that I am linking to.

kim holder

....huh?

Hohmannfan

What part of that sounds odd?

It is almost like the way you link to an image.

A file. You include it in your page.

kim holder

the model is inside that html file? it won't show me the code, i'll have to download it and look at it.

is that how blend4web outputs it?

Hohmannfan

That, or json.

Well, the html file is actually also json, just wrapped inside an html document.

And sketchfab models are also json, just hosted on another site.

kim holder

huh...

can we / should we make the frame size responsive?

Hohmannfan

20:11

Sure, that is just css

^That is what it literally is at the moment.

kim holder

yeah, i found it. so to make it responsive i'd put in the @media queries i have for the other stuff...

because there are js files inside it, which i know nothing about, i thought that didn't work the same way

or json...

Hohmannfan

They work in the same way, except that the sketchfab models are hosted on an external site.

kim holder

doesn't seem like the kind of thing you could have just dynamically resize - are they?

Hohmannfan

Why not? I can test that.

Result: It works.

kim holder

would that be heavy on browsers on small computers?

Hohmannfan

20:17

nope.

But of course, testing is good.

kim holder

note to self: just try things and see if it works. stop worrying you'll break something.

Hohmannfan

@kimholder In conclusion, it seems like a free 3dplayer is quite easy to set up. As we know a solution exists, there is no need to hurry with the migration. Does this indeed look like the solution to you?

kim holder

yeah - i am not sure what the order of things to do next should be, but i'd say i should finish the timelines, reorganize the white boards, do the sketches of the long-range plans, and then redo all the models

or, if you are interested in doing that, feel free. but it would involve learning a lot more blender.

as for youtube.... i don't see a way around that

Hohmannfan

One thing at a time.

I am not going to touch the existing existing models for now, but can we post any new models in b4w?

I am sorry for the strong reaction to this. It just felt important.

kim holder

all sorts of things about this are important. that's what makes it so hard.

i do see your point, but it would surprise me if we could avoid all compromises on this.

i am not planning on posting any new models for some time. I really want to learn the things that are needed to do it properly and organize everything so it can take on more people.

that is going to keep me very busy for a few months.

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