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00:00
And cemsi?
Noflo?
What is this??
hah
I was just looking at cemsi
which looks like gibberish
Yeah.
I advise you not to look at words your remember were in the game.
Because the game follows the order of the list.
jezz
jeez
So you'll see tomorrow's word immediately below today's.
Which I suppose is fine.
But, yeah, words like cemsi are bad.
I'm surprised it's not random
00:11
Haha.
 
1 hour later…
cmw
cmw
01:27
@Adam That explains so much!
@Cerberus Speaking of the dual, I just ran across it today. What a coincidence:
λαβοῦσα δ᾽ ὠλένης ἀριστερὰν χέρα,
πλευραῖσιν ἀντιβᾶσα τοῦ δυσδαίμονος
ἀπεσπάραξεν ὦμον, οὐχ ὑπὸ σθένους,
ἀλλ᾽ ὁ θεὸς εὐμάρειαν ἐπεδίδου χεροῖν.
(Euripides, *Bacchae* 1125–1128)
It makes sense with hands!
Such a coincidence—that must mean God exists!
But She must be a binity rather than a trinity.
cmw
cmw
@Cerberus Quite logical!
Indeed.
We probably have no archaic signs of the Latin dual left?
Only some words like ambo and octo, as it was discussed here before?
cmw
cmw
01:47
@Cerberus I believe that is correct - it doesn't exist in verbs at all afaik.
12
Q: Remnants of the dual number

DraconisTo my understanding, Latin doesn't have a dual number at all. The adjectives duo "two" and ambō "both" have some special forms derived from the PIE dual (-ō, -ābus, -ōbus), but are considered irregular rather than part of any real pattern. However, from an answer to an unrelated question: By...

It's crazy how long ago those early days of the site were.
Yeah!
But it's great to be reminded of how much crazy good info we have.
@cmw I do wonder about archaic Latin, though.
Because the examples that I have seen mentioned all seem to be still in use in the classical period?
cmw
cmw
02:20
@Cerberus I don't recall coming across any dual verbs in archaic Latin.
Perhaps epigraphically?
I have no idea.
cmw
cmw
Not sure if there's a context for them.
Good point.
cmw
cmw
I was trying to think where they might be epigraphically.
Usually if it's an epitaph it only mentions singular appointments, so we wouldn't see "both consules" for example.
It's just that I wonder why almost all duals we know about are from classical sources.
cmw
cmw
02:22
I'm not well read on very early (pre-4th century) Latin, but if it's to be found, it would be in Sihler.
Yes, graves would probably be the largest source of epigraphy.
Then it would be interesting to look at Greek duals in epitaphs.
And other epigraphs.
If they are there, then where are the Latin ones?
cmw
cmw
@Cerberus Well, they're also in Old Latin, they just survived in Classical sources as well.
Yes, of course.
cmw
cmw
@Cerberus Might be worth a question, but I do think you'll come up short.
Sadly, we need more Hellenists on the site.
But you might expect to find more of a thing that died before age x when you look at sources from before that age.
cmw
cmw
02:24
(wouldn't have been a problem if we were Classics.SE...grumble mutter grumble)
Of course your point that duals may be rare in all our archaic sources for contextual reasons is valid.
@cmw Hah!
@cmw Short because nobody here will know?
cmw
cmw
@Cerberus Too obscure. Has there ever been a question on Greek epigraphy?
Right.
I don't remember.
We have had one or two questions on pre-classical Greek from a certain island.
Or is that considered pre-classical?
At least in pottery, that time is considered pre-classical.
I believe in literature as well?
cmw
cmw
I'd consider anything that was post-Mycenaean.
Consider, for what?
cmw
cmw
02:30
I know Homer is technically archaic, but that has less to do with the language and more to do with cultural and political events.
@Cerberus Classical Greek.
cmw
cmw
Honestly, the same is true with Latin.
Would you say pre-classical is by definition archaic?
cmw
cmw
The difference between Plautus and Suetonius is trivial compared with stuff just a couple hundred years before Plautus or a few hundred years after Suetonius.
Yes.
I suppose that is somewhat remarkable.
cmw
cmw
02:32
We don't typically use "pre-Classical" in anglophonic scholarship.
Although I think the difference between Suetonius and e.g. Justinian is not great either?
@cmw I was trying to be more generic than "archaic".
But perhaps those two should be the same thing.
cmw
cmw
@Cerberus Justinian, no, but a lot of Christian Latin after Jerome feels pretty different to me.
But yeah, you can get up to the 600s before it really changes. But you can tell the language has already changed, the literature just finally caught up to it.
Heh.
cmw
cmw
@Cerberus If I saw "pre-Classical Greek", I would indeed think of archaic Greek, but also pre-archaic inscriptions, Mycenaean texts, etc.
I'm not sure I'm justified in doing so.
It is hard for me to compare, because Plautus is a bit difficult for me simply because it has so many vulgarisms or abbreviations or colloquialisms.
@cmw I think you would be, depending on context.
cmw
cmw
02:36
@Cerberus Yeah, but I think that's a character of Plautus' plays, rather than Plautus' language.
Yes.
Of the genre.
cmw
cmw
Right!
Though I think it's use as evidence for colloquial Latin is a bit overstated - it is iambic poetry still, after all!
It's not like we all talk like Broadway characters.
Right!
I think Ennius is easier, by the way.
cmw
cmw
(Or whatever the main theater metonym is for the Netherlands.)
Have you tried Cato? Also pretty easy.
Or at least closer to e.g. Virgil. But that is of course also because of the genre.
@cmw I don't remember!
cmw
cmw
02:39
@Cerberus De Agri Cultura is actually fairly interesting - I did my Latin PhD oral topic on him.
He has some other scraps that are worth checking out, too.
@cmw Oh, cool.
 
1 hour later…
cmw
cmw
04:10
@Cerberus
Latin Wordle 114 4/6

⬜🟩⬜⬜⬜
⬜🟩🟩⬜🟩
⬜🟩🟩🟩🟩
🟩🟩🟩🟩🟩
 
3 hours later…
06:54
It's peculiar that it provides a dictionary link to the solution after the game but this time the dictionary says no.
@Adam That list doesn't seem to be in any order!
I'd have expected at least forms of the same word all included and grouped together.
 
2 hours later…
08:58
@cmw: What does a Latin PhD involve? Did you have to find something hitherto unknown?
 
3 hours later…
12:04
@JoonasIlmavirta I can't believe how quickly you can find nonsense words. I actually google cemsi and I can't tell if that's a word in any language. The results for the first two pages of results are something in which it's an acronym.
Google Translate (hehe) suggests it's possibly Hindi, but it translates it to Sansi in English, suggesting it thinks it's a spelling mistake.
12:16
I didn't get the Latin worldo (had the last four but went through too many first letter guesses). I can't even find the word in a dictionary
 
1 hour later…
cmw
cmw
13:39
@tony For the oral exam? No, that was a knowledge test.
The dissertation topic should be original research, yes.
 
2 hours later…
15:20
Does this sentence make sense?
> Sumus atque estis et perĪbimus Āc perĪbitis.
pardon the strange capitals - they display better with Adobe's Trajan font
@cmw: What did you discover? It must be difficult to find something new with Latin; very difficult?
15:36
@Adam Tangentially: Why the macron on the ac? I'd expect it to have a short vowel but be a long syllable nevertheless, like hoc.
@JoonasIlmavirta L&S show ac with a macron. Maybe they have it just to make it clear?
15:50
@Adam That dictionary doesn't use macrons for vowel length but syllable length, unfortunately.
16:27
@JoonasIlmavirta Ahh, so a long syllable by position versus a long vowel sound.
@Adam Exactly.
It would be better to say that it's really acc despite being spelled ac.
cmw
cmw
17:01
@JoonasIlmavirta Sounds like this should be a Q&A on the site. I'd love to see the evidence laid out for it.
@cmw I think we did have a similar discussion of hoc[c].
But I agree, having one on ac[c] would be good.
The same analysis should be straightforward to pull off for ac. But I'd rather if it weren't unilaterally my thing this time.
17:39
How is a geminated consonant pronounced?
We don't have them in English from what Wikipedia states.
This is what gives it a longer length, right? The vowel sound and length are short but the syllable becomes long because the final consonant is geminate.
@Adam The same but longer, like with a long vowel as compared to a short one.
@JoonasIlmavirta In the case of C, does that mean a longer aspiration on the end?
If you can imagine a sheep saying baaaaa and a snake saying sssss, that should give a good starting point to long vowels and consonants.
cmw
cmw
@JoonasIlmavirta I guess my follow up question for you would be, for both, how do you know the o in hoc is short if it's always long in poetry? (As in, "what's the evidence?")The same applies for ac.
@Adam There's no aspiration on the end in Latin.
So a long C means that the stop is longer. In bucca (think of buccccca if it helps) the airflow is stopped for a longer time.
@cmw Good question! That should mainly be argued by comparison to other forms or etymology either way (descendants or parents). Worth exploring too.
cmw
cmw
17:53
@tony My topic was on cannibalism in antiquity. It was not on Latin per se. Most PhDs in Latin aren't focused on the Latin language, but on the literature, society, culture, history, etc. of people who speak and works written in Latin.
@cmw One thing along those same lines I'd like to see clarified is how we know the long and short est (sum/edo) have the stated lengths.
cmw
cmw
@JoonasIlmavirta I think that one we know from daughter languages, but that's not my area of expertise, so don't rely on me for that.
@cmw That sounds likely, but I'd enjoy seeing that on record. This site can provide illuminating records of things like that.
@JoonasIlmavirta Ahh, I see. As an anglophone it's hard to not have at least a little bit of aspiration after the C, but making the pause after the stop longer makes sense.
@Adam When pronouncing a stop (T, P, K or their voiced counterparts), there's no sound for most of the time. There's only a sound upon release. For a long stop the pause is long and the release has to wait a bit longer.
I'm glad if it's making some sense. Communicating this over text chat with different native languages is a bit of a challenge.
18:07
@JoonasIlmavirta Would it be easier explaining verbally? Or is that because you can simply make the sound?
@Adam The way this kind of thing is taught in language classes is that a teacher makes the sound and comments on how well the students are copying it. The next best thing is to use voice recordings, but it can be hard for an untrained ear to pick certain differences. I know I'm deaf to some distinctions others can make.
There's an site somewhere on the web with recordings of words from various languages. I imagine they would have some minimal pairs on this. I can't remember the name...
Ugh... Latin Wordle thinks niath is a word. That list is beyond belief.
cmw
cmw
@JoonasIlmavirta It's a shame he rushed it to production. Think I'm going to hang up on it, now.
18:33
@cmw Yeah, the nonsense is frustrating.
I wonder if there's a tool out there that allows you to play Wordle on your own custom list of words. I'm not really into it for competition and sharing but the occasional little fun, so a local solution would be just fine.
18:53
@JoonasIlmavirta Since they have the source up, we could build a branch that uses a word list culled directly from L&S or somewhere else.
I could host it for us on my own web server or somewhere else.
@Adam Sounds like a decent plan to me. The community could help vet the list.
And help come up with it too.
I just need to register a domain name and set up an account for it in WHM.
One option is to take a text corpus and take all words of a given length that occur at least five times.
Generating forms programmatically is a bit dangerous.
Yea, I'd much rather just use what is actually attested. If the total number of words available is greater than 750 or so then you could go sequentially and not get the same word again for 2 years.
@Adam What kind of code is it? And what size? If it's small and simple, a simple university homepage like mine could host it pretty easily.
19:03
If we were going to give a Latin name to the Latin Stack Exchange site, what would it be?
@Adam That'd actually be a great question for the site! I don't think anything too literal would work well, but I could be wrong.
@JoonasIlmavirta It's written in TypeScript, so ultimately Javascript.
I'm not sure of the size but it's not going to be large.
@Adam Then it sounds like it would be simple to host. Perhaps even versions with different corpora.
There are also versions out there that have more variants: four at a time, six letters, exercise instead of daily, and so on.
I'm not sure how easy their code is to get, but probably not hard if it's run on the browser instead of the server.
I added a question for the name
@JoonasIlmavirta It's easy to fork a github branch and make changes; I can fork it to my own repository. I don't think there'd be an easy way for someone to run it in their browser without the code being hosted somewhere, even if the code is all client-side.
Technically github has its own webpages and it could be simply made through them.
> Latin Wordle 114 4/6
⬜⬜⬜⬜⬜
⬜🟨🟩🟨🟩
🟩⬜⬜⬜🟨
🟩🟩🟩🟩🟩
19:14
@Adam Not all sites have their source on GitHub, right?
For example, I like the Finnish one.
19:37
@JoonasIlmavirta Most probably don't, or only have certain applications up there for when they want to use version tracking and build collaboratively. Git is yet another gift to us from Linus Torvalds
Github itself is just a service for cloud hosting git repositories
 
3 hours later…
22:58
@cmw: Cannibalism?! How did you get interested in that--was something eating you?
lol
nice one @tony

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