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Just out of interest . . . Do you (collectively) think nonclassical logic is legitimate?
I asked the following a while ago:
1
Q: The legitimacy of topos theory and intuitionism.

ShaunThis is an exercise in critical thinking. I am not looking, therefore, for opinions on the matter; rather: I would like to know the evidence (whatever that might mean). Background: I have a longstanding interest in different types of logic: The Adjunction $\_\times A\dashv (\_ )^A$ for Preorders...

The reception was mixed, but I don't mind.
I wanted to understand how it's not crankery.
I have an interest in nonclassical logic.
It spans over a decade.
I still don't understand the basics of it, or, at least, because I'm entirely self-taught, I lack confidence in my grasp.
Once I get my PhD, I might get a Master's in, say, AI, where nonclassical logics have applications. Maybe I'd even go for a philosophy degree . . .
@LukasHeger and what is K-theory?
I've been thinking a lot about my options after my doctorate, seeing as though getting a postdoc is so difficult . . .
00:17
@leslietownes we're all perverts at heart
Suppose I publish an article on nonclassical logic. Would that negatively effect people's views of me? I mean: I already have schizophrenia. I don't need other forms of sophistry.
Like: consider the trivial logic, in which everything is true. We can say things about it reasonably. Sure, it's not interesting, but it's a different type of logic with true statements and false statements to be made about it.
what is this nonclassical logic you speak of
Any logic which is not classical logic is nonclassical. For example, intuitionism, paraconsistent logic, intermediate logics, etc.
@Shaun I am interested in the bifurcations of strings of partially true statements in a given logical system can accumulate to a true statement
2
00:33
Cool :)
I don't know what that means exactly.
fuzzy logic
Note: it's 01:33 where I am.
Oh, I see.
Fuzzy logic is awesome.
I might hit the sack soon.
I have ebooks on all kinds of logic from my university library. Some are on fuzzy logic.
shaun as one high level thought, publishing an article on literally anything might affect someone's views of you, and you can't really control how (whether positively or negatively) simply by choosing the subject area
Isn't there about 180 different types of implication for intuitionistic fuzzy logic?
@leslietownes True.
subject matter certainly affects things like "will this help my chances [or even matter] for getting X job, or X kind of job," and i don't know of any academic positions where publishing in nonclassical logic would help your case, and probably for a lot of them it would hurt it
but i also don't think it's very good, as a way of spending one's life, to choose what to study or work on based purely on some perception that it might help you get a job
but that's more of a 'how to balance everything in life' issue than a math issue. as one of the commenters said on your question, i don't think there's any high level mathematical question about the legitimacy of that stuff
but empirically it is a very very small niche of what people publish on, and maybe even smaller niche of what people get jobs on
a background thing that i feel like i've said recently is that the sort of 'fundamental' nature of things like logic and set theory often gives people the impression that it's a hugely more popular subject, in terms of the numbers of people studying it, and the depth at which they study it, than it actually is
and whether and how that fact matters to anything is almost entirely a matter of personal opinion, but i think a lot of people just completely fail to appreciate that fact
00:43
@leslietownes That's an interesting thought.
for context, i got a phd at uc berkeley, which is or at least was one of the world centers of set theory and logic, and even there it was this tiny niche thing that mostly nobody did
Okay, I'm tired now. See you later!
15 mins ago, by John Zimmerman
@Shaun I am interested in the bifurcations of strings of partially true statements in a given logical system can accumulate to a true statement
this is only partially true
@leslietownes /|\(;,,,;)/|\
00:58
i need high abv
a simple number says a lot about who you are
math.stackexchange.com/q/4907395/460999 please downvote (if it is downvote worthy)
voting is super important
And yes I have voted in a political election
how much percentage of talking do i have on this chat.
percentage wise i mean compared to the total # of messages
01:24
who voted to close
 
3 hours later…
04:32
@leslietownes what should I study first Measure Theory or Topology?
04:54
i dunno. neither one is going to make that much sense without a lot of examples, and studying them in the abstract is pretty unlike studying how they arise in examples. this might be why books on other things often have sections (or appendices) devoted to measure theory or topology.
if i absolutely had to choose, i'd say topology, because it comes up in more places and is more likely to play at least some role in whatever else you are interested in
 
2 hours later…
07:25
🦅
 
1 hour later…
08:35
@LuckyChouhan I see a clear winner here
 
2 hours later…
10:10
I'm reading about the Caratheodory extension theorem in Folland's book. At the end of the proof, the author notes, that "Indeed, $\mu_0$ may be extended to a measure on the algebra $\mathcal M^\ast$ of all $\mu^\ast$-measurable sets." I don't see how. In the proof we have $\mathcal M$ contained in $\mathcal M^\ast$, but not the other way around, or?
10:30
the extension is already what Caratheodory's theorem does
10:46
@Thorgott I think I understand. If we have a premeasure $\mu_0$ and an algebra $\mathcal A$, it induces an outer measure, which in turn induces a sigma algebra $\mathcal M^\ast$ of all the $\mu^\ast$-measurable sets. Since a sigma algebra is also an algebra, we may swap $\mathcal A$ in the theorem by $\mathcal M^\ast$ and then simply get an extension on a set larger than $\mathcal M$.
yes, $\mathcal{M}^{\ast}$ contains $\mathcal{A}$ and hence $\mathcal{M}$
11:17
@leslietownes you forgot to mention how its better to study metric spaces
5
A: Sums of integrals converge or diverge?

Jack D'AurizioBy defining $$ f_n(x) = \int_{0}^{x}\int_{0}^{x_n}\ldots\int_{0}^{x_2}e^{\frac{1}{\log x_1}}\,dx_1\,dx_2\cdots dx_n $$ we have $$ f_n(x) = \int_{0<x_1 < x_2<\ldots<x_n<x}e^{\frac{1}{\log x_1}}\prod dx_k = \int_{0}^{x}\,\frac{1}{(n-1)!}(x-x_1)^{n-1}e^{\frac{1}{\log x_1}}dx_1$$ and by letting $x_1 ...

found an error in Jack Dazurio's answer. I notified them in the comments
I hope I did the right thing
How can I show $\lim_{r\to 1-}\sum_{n=2}^\infty {r^n\over n\log n}$ does not converge without using some continuity argument of a power series? (I mean only using appropriate inequalities)
$f(x)=f(x+c)-f'(x+c)$ is this a differential equation?
12:02
@JohnZimmerman it's a retarded differential equation (RDE)
somebody reduced it to this: $g\prime(x)=-g(x-d)$
 
1 hour later…
13:25
@LukasHeger is this an actual name for it
Damn. So this differential equation is retarded. I see. Mathematics can be wild
13:54
@SoumikMukherjee which one?
$$K(s)=\int_{1/2}^1 \zeta\bigg(-\frac{1}{\log x}\bigg)~x^{-s}~dx$$

so that $$ K(s)\approx K(s+3/2)-K'(s+3/2) $$
So it closely approximates that retarded linear differential equation
14:16
@LuckyChouhan Topology
Maybe I'm a child but this terminology is ridiculous
Most probably chosen by a physicist.
How about perverse sheaves?
@onepotatotwopotato Maybe you use an estimate from Cauchy's condensation test $$\sum_{n=2}^\infty \frac{r^n}{n\log n}\geq \sum_{n=1}^\infty \frac{r^{2^n}}{2 \log(2) n}$$
I realize this might not be the best since you obtain a term $r^{2^n}$ that converges to $0$ faster than exponentially
then possibly applying it again you get $$\sum_{n=2}^\infty \frac{r^n}{n\log n} \geq \sum_{n=0}^\infty \frac{r^{2^{2^n}}}{4\log (2)}$$
the term $r^{2^{2^n}}$ converges to $0$ even faster of course
oh okay maybe like this
$\liminf_{r\to 1^-} \sum_{n=2}^\infty \frac{r^n}{n\log n} \geq \liminf_{r\to 1^-} \sum_{n=2}^N \frac{r^n}{n\log n} = \sum_{n=2}^N \frac{1}{n\log n}$ and take $N\to\infty$
but this is, again, just a reproof of one of those continuity results...
at least when $\sum_k a_k = \infty$ and $a_k\geq 0$
 
1 hour later…
15:53
hi
what r ur top 2 favorite math fields
@RyderRude The $7$-adic numbers and the complex numbers.
temperature here would be 42 deg C tomorrow.
(~ 107 F)
every year temperature hits a new record.
@XanderHenderson mine's are the ones you can grow coffee beans on
@XanderHenderson sorry i meant math branches
p-adic numbers are great though
@RyderRude they're adictive, eh?
16:07
infinitely
@RyderRude I think for me it would be set-theoretic topology and dimension theory
what's weird about this photo?
i hadnt heard of these branches. the first one is really abstract @Jakobian
@RyderRude I'm particularly fond of cherry tree branches, in the spring, when they are covered in blossoms. Pine branches are good for heating the house in the winter, though. So those might be my favorite.
@Koro Nothing?
@XanderHenderson a cat with 5 legs!!
16:11
@Koro No. There are two cats there.
One facing the camera, and the other attempting to sniff the first one's butt.
yes. it's two cats
😅
@XanderHenderson didn't know it happens for cats too. I never had a cat, thought only dogs do that
@Jakobian do u like the problems in these branches, the theorems or just the overall package
this interview is really good
@Jakobian No, cat's definitely sniff each other's butts.
16:17
@SoumikMukherjee thank you, I have recently started studying it :)
@XanderHenderson Depend upon it, there is nothing so unnatural as the commonplace.
do u think the universe is spatially finite
@RyderRude universe is expanding bruhh..
yeah
@XanderHenderson oh
@LuckyChouhan it cud still be finite or infinite i guess
@RyderRude we can say nothing about it. I always think "if universe is expanding then it is expanding into what??"
16:24
i once came across an answer which linked this to the philosophy of set theory and infinities
You're physics guy, please enlighten me regarding this topic.
i havent studied GR...
Dear me,
but an accurate analogy is an infinite carpet that's expanding everywhere
it's just that the things on the carpet are getting morr and more separated
@LuckyChouhan nice
16:26
@SoumikMukherjee have you taken admission for MSC?
I have completed my msc:/
@RyderRude my brain hurts.
the key thing is that expansion here does not mean the same as boundary enlargement within a larger space @LuckyChouhan
it just means things on a space getting more and more spread out uniformly
I'll answer your question later maybe
@SoumikMukherjee oh sorry, but few weeks/months ago didn't you go to take an interview?
16:27
That was for phd
@Jakobian okay
@RyderRude I see, because there are many dimensions I guess
@SoumikMukherjee nice, then from where you're pursuing your PhD?
@LuckyChouhan That isn't even required.
@LuckyChouhan Nowhere
Imagine an open disk in $\mathbb{R}^2$. Then monkey with the way in which you measure distances within the disk.
16:29
I fumbled at that interview
@SoumikMukherjee then, what are you doing these days?
Staring at the abyss
@XanderHenderson yeah,
@SoumikMukherjee haha
@XanderHenderson do you hang out with your friends?
@XanderHenderson do you roast your own coffee?
@Jakobian what about you sir?
16:33
no, but I recently started to grind my own coffee
@Jakobian Not recently. I've done it a couple of times, but it was more work than it was worth.
@XanderHenderson do you cook food?
@XanderHenderson I remember one time you asked me how do I make my coffee, and I'm not sure if I answered you correctly. I think I've said that I drip my coffee, where I use full immersion by using a French press
@Jakobian Fun. I have one of these: wholelattelove.com/products/… .
I never really tried an espresso, I usually take latte when I take a coffee outside. I'm just afraid of it being too bitter like just the standard black coffee I sometimes used to buy by accident
16:38
@Jakobian I mean, a latte is just espresso with steamed milk. You have to make the espresso, first.
I usually start my day with a macchiato, which is espresso with just a very little bit of steamed milk.
I like straight espresso, but my gut does not.
@XanderHenderson do you do exercise?
Macchiato is stronger than cappuccino, right?
@LuckyChouhan No, as I am neither Catholic, nor do I believe in demonic possession.
Protip: Start your day with a bottle of champagne
Protip: Alcohol causes cancer and is generally bad for you, even if you consume it only once a week in small amounts. Don't drink
16:41
@XanderHenderson oh here by exercies I mean yoga, streaching something like that
@Jakobian yeah, honestly, I never had alcohol, I don't know how it tastes like. What about you?
on tobacco products, it is even written that it causes cancer, but still sin products are consumed by a lot of people.
@Koro you're just talking about written warning don't you know here in India they put photo of cancer patient on Vimal even though people buy it
bolo zubaan kesari
@RyderRude One often finds intersections between topology and set theory and I find those very interesting, for example the existence of $P$-points in $\beta\mathbb{N}\setminus\mathbb{N}$ is equivalent to continuum hypothesis. About dimension theory, I like it because of the concept of dimension and its different interpretations and how the dimension functions interact with each other.
say government takes a bold decision to ban all sin products. What will happen? The companies whose majority of revenue comes from sin products won't be happy with it. The government won't be in power in following election.
this brings another option: ban sale of sin products in the country, but allow export.
@LuckyChouhan I had some alcohol before, vodka, whiskey, wine, rum. I like whiskey the most. But even if you don't drink too often it makes you feel more miserable generally speaking
16:52
But this will make lot of people unhappy so again the government is likely to be ousted in the following elections.
Alcohol is unhealthy and can lead to an addiction, so its better to just not drink at all
the third (and reasonable) option is to increase the price of sin products.
sin?
Do that and you reduce the buyers instantly. The people would be unhappy with it but they will digest it as there is "inflation".
@Jakobian great, you're an experienced guy.
@Koro haha
16:56
Sin product sounds like you're talking about it in a religious context
@Jakobian it is not going to work, if they increase the price then new player will capture the market.
@Jakobian really cool
in one of the Indian states, alcohol is banned. It's available only in certain restaurants in the state. I think this is great but they should experiment banning all sin products.
@Koro Where? Up?
@Jakobian no, it's a term which in market refers to things which are bad for health but are sold nonetheless.
16:57
@SoumikMukherjee Gujarat or UP I guess ??
Gujarat
the biggest sin products manufacturer is in the Indian state where I'm in currently. Even children aged around 14, 15 or even younger smoke here. It's a disaster. Go outside, and you'll feel like there are trains moving around you.
pretty much everyone smokes here.
even inside college!!
no offence to anyone from around this place, but I've been all over the country and I can say this is the worst place I've ever been to.
@Koro I see. I'm an anti-theist so I was weirded out a little. But its a term like any other
I'm definitely not coming back once I exit it.
17:02
@Koro Haryana, Punjab, Himachal Pradesh??
carbonated drinks r bad
@Koro do you do job in WB? Otherwise it will be easy for you to exit it.
@RyderRude do you know about Maaza??
it saddens me when I see kids smoke.
@Koro You seem to miss the fact that many people will continue to use "sin" products, and that the only real effect of banning them is that they become more expensive, and only available on an unregulated and dangerous black market.
@LuckyChouhan no
17:06
prohibition was a great idea, but sadly it didn't work out
maybe if we had real psychologist working on how to handle this
we probably do
sin products are called 'sin' for an another reason also: government regulations. Say government comes up with a rule that bans cigarettes for everyone aged upto 18 or 16 or whatever. This will immediately plummet the share of the giant manufacturer that I talk about here.
So the good thing is they have started diversifying their portfolio.
@Thorgott Was it, though?
They are now making chips, chocolate biscuits etc!!
@Koro idk its their life
17:09
Jacobian: the situation is very different here in my country.
Sin products have ruined many families here.
are you talking about alcohol mainly
all sin products -alcohol, cigarettes, cannabis, cocaine etc.
alcohol and cocaine are pretty strong drugs, but cigarettes and cannabis, in what way do you think they ruin families
One of my two roommates in msc was a chain smoker. He made a pyramid out of all the ciggerate boxes.
@XanderHenderson did you ever have coffee with nitro?
17:14
@SoumikMukherjee great, passionate cigarette smoker!
@XanderHenderson black markets dealing with these products can disappear with strong laws. But that's not the problem. The problem is that if political party A enforces a ban, then the opposition would try reversing. Politics!!
that's the problem.
@Koro Actually democracy's pillars have been broken.
so better would be inflate the prices so majority can't buy that stuff and use 'strong laws' against anyone who does 'black market'.
@SoumikMukherjee I just realized he was your roommate so you may have had some side effects as well.
cannabis has medicinal uses
17:16
in moderation may be
@RyderRude try, I'm sure you'll like it.
but replacing you meals lunch/breakfast etc. with it is sure way to get doomed.
Hey all! Where can I read up about base independence in applied math?
or in the philosophy of math?
@LuckyChouhan i will check it out
@MoreAnonymous base independence? In what context? Linear algebra?
17:20
@Jakobian it's a lengthy answer. Let's postpone it to some other day.
@RyderRude I think... was it heroine? It has medicinal uses too
which means that having medicinal uses maybe isn't the best of an argument for something to be allowed for public use
@Jakobian yeah... it can be used for extreme pain
@Jakobian Yes.
@Koro I disagree, but I am not going to argue with you about this.
albeit cannabis isn't a strong drug, we can definitely allow it if we are allowing things like alcohol already
@Jakobian yeah
17:23
@LuckyChouhan Not really, but my other roommate was an ex smoker, so it was hard for him to pass through
@Koro there are many in my college hostel who do this. Some even cultivate it in their accommodation!! The administration knows this. But since the college is in this part of the country, nothing happens. If it were elsewhere, the consequences would be spectacular.
@Jakobian soft drinks wil logically hav to go first if we r going to ban anything
I, for example, hate the smell of cannabis however
@Jakobian lemme think how to frame it better ... I was thinking about number theory
@XanderHenderson does it differ taste wise? And is it healthy?
17:24
soft drinks r poison and they dont hav medicinal use
@Koro @LuckyChouhan see this
@Jakobian It changes the texture, not the taste. I like it. I can't speak to health, though I can't imagine it has any effect.
@SoumikMukherjee Haha, That guy was chad :)
@SoumikMukherjee he's right, sadly.
There are two main routes via which these sin products enter the country.
Hope these are blocked by the government.
hello
can someone help me
I can't understand one thing in the proof of if a sequence converges then it is cauchy
17:50
@Pizza go ahead
Just ask; don't ask to ask.
yes , im writing
Proof
$\lim{n\to\infty}$ $a_n$=$l$
$\forall$ $\epsilon$>0 $\exists$N:$|a_n-l|<\epsilon$
so $|a_n-a_m|<|a_n-l|+|a_m+l|<2\epsilon$
I didn't understand what the difference |an-am| is for
@Pizza what's the definition of a Cauchy sequence?
that the terms of a succession are close to each other
and in symbols?
and their distance is less than epsilon
$|an-am|<\epsilon$
18:00
$\forall_{\varepsilon > 0}\exists_N \forall_{n, m\geq N} |a_n-a_m|<\varepsilon$
yes
so what do you mean when you say "what the difference |an-am| is for"?
its in the definition of a Cauchy sequence
You have to show a statement involving the difference $|a_n-a_m|$
am admits limit because m is greater than N???
what?
because in the proof I only wrote that an had a limit
18:03
what are you asking, I don't understand
A sequence is a function $n\mapsto a_n$
given a natural number $n$ it gives you an output $a_n$
yes
an tends to the same limit as am, because n and m are terms of the sequence larger than N???
it doesn't make sense to say "$a_n$ has a limit" unless you mean specifically this function $n\mapsto a_n$
but here $a_n$ and $a_m$ are specific evaluations of this function
they are not the sequence
You are given some numbers $n, m$
those could be $a_2$ and $a_3$
OK
18:07
you are talking about specific terms in a sequence $a_1, a_2, ...$
not sequence $a_n$ and sequence $a_m$
so an and am in this case are numbers
which you could write $(a_n)$ and $(a_m)$ or $(a_n)_{n\in\mathbb{N}}$ and $(a_m)_{m\in\mathbb{N}}$ if you were to talk about sequences
but you aren't talking about sequences, you are talking about specific real numbers $a_n$ and $a_m$
ok
last question
therefore am and an are part of the sequence an
So first, you are given a sequence $(a_n)$ which has a limit $l$, we write it as $\lim_{n\to\infty} a_n = l$ and it means that for all $\varepsilon > 0$ there is $N$ such that for all $n\geq N$ we have $|a_n-l|<\varepsilon$
ok
18:09
This is what it means to have a limit, this is our assumption
yes
The statement that you want to prove is that for all $\varepsilon > 0$ there exists $N$ such that for all $n, m\geq N$ you have $|a_n-a_m|<\varepsilon$
yes
this is what you want to show in the end
So first take some $\varepsilon > 0$, and we know that there must exists some $N$ such that for all $n \geq N$ we have $|a_n-l|< \varepsilon$
ok
18:12
and we want to show that given any $\varepsilon' > 0$ there exists $N'$ such that for all $n', m' \geq N'$ the statement that we want to hold, does hold
note that this can be different $\varepsilon'$, different $N'$, different $n'$
so what do you do first? Of course you can try to bound $|a_{n'}-a_{m'}|$ and see what you get
yes
and you get $|a_{n'}-a_{m'}|\leq |a_{n'}-l|+|a_{m'}-l|$
now if we could apply our assumption to this somehow, we could bound those
and our assumption was, that IF $n'\geq N$ THEN $|a_{n'}-l|<\varepsilon$
given some $\varepsilon > 0$
so now you have that given $\varepsilon > 0$ we can find $N' = N$ such that for $n', m'\geq N'$ you have $|a_{n'}-a_{m'}| < 2\varepsilon$
so now coming back to our definition of what it means to be a Cauchy sequence, we can take $\varepsilon = \frac{\varepsilon'}{2}$ and $N' = N = N_\varepsilon$ from definition of a limit
given $\varepsilon' > 0$ we can apply our definition of a limit to find such $N'$
and then for all $n', m' \geq N'$ you have $|a_{n'}-a_{m'}| < \varepsilon'$
which is exactly the definition of Cauchy sequence
and if you think this is too complicated for you, too bad
you have to get used to thinking like this
you have to get used to your brain managing a bunch of things at once in a proof
I didn't understand what you did
like
Write it down and study it
I'm not responsible for you not understanding, you just have to get used to proofs
its certainly a some sort of skill that not everyone has immediately that you, apparently, need some practice with
so go study it, carefully. I can't really help you much
18:28
@Jakobian I don't understand why the proof doesn't end here by placing the last two absolute values ​​less than epsilon/2
if you don't understand something, then your first reaction shouldn't be to ask me about it
ok
it should be to think about it
 
2 hours later…
20:26
@LukasHeger So, I've been asking about what is periodicity of a $K$-theory. It seems to me you are taking a field $k$ and considering sequences of Clifford algebras over $k$, namely $\text{Cl}(p, q)$ and the least positive $n$ such that $\text{Cl}(p, q+n)\cong \text{Cl}(p, q)$ "modulo matrices" is called the periodicity of $K$-theory over $k$.
where "modulo matrices" is who knows what operation that strips the matrix structure, say if you have matrices over algebra $A$ then it just considers this algebra $A$
20:53
@Jakobian that's not quite accurate. But the point is if you put in more work, then you can derive the periodicity of $K$-theory from such a relation $\mathrm{Cl}(p,q+n) \sim \mathrm{Cl}(p,q)$. $K$-theory and its periodicity is something different than just a statement about Clifford algebras. I was saying that there's a relation here, but it's not a straightforward relation, you need to put in more work to get something about $K$-theory.
(topological) $K$-theory exists in a real and a complex version, it's about vector bundles on a compact Hausdorff space modulo some relation called stable equivalence
does it actually work for all compact Hausdorff spaces
yes, I think so
hmm, you're right
in my mind, Bott periodicity is the statement $\Omega^2BU\simeq BU\times\mathbb{Z}$, but I guess this is actually weaker
cause I don't think $K$-theory satisfies weak equivalence
I think that's equivalent. $BU$ should represent reduced $K$-theory, right?
21:11
yeah, but my concern is that a spectrum represents a cohomology theory only on spaces with the homotopy type of a CW-complex if we're not assuming that it turns weak equivalences into isomorphisms
oh I see the issue now
21:42
@Thorgott apparently, $K$-theory is representable for all compact spaces by $BU \times \Bbb Z$, so there's no issue
I am shaking right now, what an outrageous claim
@Peter
okay so his proof is that twin prime conjecture can be true or false
what a clown
2
@LukasHeger interesting, didn't know that
 
1 hour later…
22:55
Suppose $a,b>0$ are know constants and $2<\beta<\alpha$ not necessarily integers. Is there any way to solve $a x^\alpha+b x^\beta=1$ or estimate the solution somehow?
23:45
@PNDas I assume $x > 0$?
If $\alpha/\beta = p/q$ is a rational, then letting $y = x^{\beta/q}$ we obtain $ay^p+by^q = 1$
so to even solve the above in general, we'd have to solve $ay^p+by^q = 1$ in general for integers $p, q$
Thank you. Sadly, $\alpha/\beta$ may not be rational.

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