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00:00 - 20:0020:00 - 00:00

00:38
Hi @robjohn
I’m stuck solving another puzzle right now
nothing better to do when you have COVID
01:13
Well, annoying us might be better (for you).
Is Dorroh extension a monad, provided that its domain is restricted, OR that its codomain is extended?
Oh, I almost forgot that composing adjoint functors always result in a monad.
 
1 hour later…
02:28
@TedShifrin Hey there. Just back from walking Rosie in the park. In an hour or so we will walk both Rosie and Holly.
Sounds like everyone's doing much better, @robjohn. :)
@TedShifrin Yes. Rosie is still a bit antsy about anything that bites. She jumps at mosquito bites much more than she used to, but on the whole, we are doing very well.
@Ted: how are things going with you?
Doing fine, thanks, @robjohn. Still more tired than I'd like to be. I don't know if it's lasting COVID effects or due to blood pressure meds ... or just getting plum old. :D
I blame my fatigue on the meds I'm taking after my surgery. Fatigue and hot flashes are a couple of the side effects from hormone therapy.
Lower T-values, which they want at this point, do that sort of thing.
02:43
no more 'hulking out' and beating people up at the gym for no reason.
@robjohn ... We should just huddle in the corner and be math nerds :D
And hide from leslie.
wait, that's different medication. never mind.
i've been sleeping a lot lately, too. although i tested negative through the last time i thought i had covid.
my dad failed the written exam when he went to renew his drivers license the other day. he is studying hard now and worried that he is getting old.
I can relate to that :D Although my memory still seems to be better than that of plenty of people younger than I. ... But I've always stressed out over the DMV written test — all the arcane numbers ... how many feet from a fire hydrant, how many feet from a turn do I signal, etc. I just do these things with common sense ...
when he reviewed the first time he thought "i don't need to know the penalties for these various illegal things, because i'm not planning on doing any of them." they still test that, however.
i said he reminded me of calculus students who don't study because "none of this is going to be used in real life." you fail a test, you fail it in your real life.
he didn't think that was funny :)
Good thing it wasn't your father-in-law :D
I suspect that the next time I need to renew my license I'll need to go through this.
Yup. Just checked. I'm now $\ge 70$.
02:57
i got my ells two years ago and i forgot everything
i maintain i need only to know not to run into anything
Not exactly.
@leslietownes yeah, my usual bright green is now more of a camouflage color. Hulking out is not as impressive.
shin: if you forget the rules of the road, just listen for honking and shouting and watch for hand gestures. people are very forthcoming with guidance if you need a refresher
A friend just got a ticket for having his cell phone in his hand, excuses notwithstanding.
truly the roads are populated with good samaritans
03:01
I would say with egomaniacal idiots, but …
ah, see, he did not have sufficient knowledge of the fact he must avoid running into things, for you see, a cellphone is a distraction, and can lead to running into things
learn this one simple rule, you won't believe how much it can keep you out of trouble. driving instructors hate me!
 
1 hour later…
04:16
9 hours ago, by Koro
one problem though: according to the above set of equalities, I'm getting $f^{-1}(0)=\{(\bar x, \bar y): \|x\|^2\ge 0\}= R^{m+n}$, which can not be true as this would imply that $f\equiv 0$.
@TedShifrin apparently, the equality that I wrote earlier is not correct.
that is, this one:
9 hours ago, by Koro
$f^{-1}(c)= \{(\bar x, \bar y): f(\bar x, \bar y)=c\}=\bigcup_{r\ge 0}\{(\bar x, \bar y): \|x\|^2=c+r\}= \{(\bar x, \bar y): \|x\|^2\ge c\}$
Of course it’s not correct.
Why don't tensors appear in linear algebra textbooks?
And spinors either?
What does the phrase "linear algebra" mean to you.
Something covered in Howard Anton.
04:34
The Classic.
RIP, physical math students.
 
3 hours later…
07:21
If V is a vector space and W is a subset of V that is a vector space,
then W is a subspace of V.
I think this statement is true apparently but my book says false
Now, this is weird. I feel the book points it out because it is never mentioned in the question that W is a vector space which field. Due to this, ambiguity, I think the book says it's false
But with the context it becomes clear that W is a vector space over the field same as V is a vector space over.
Any idea?
I think the book insists V and W might be of different fields?
Or W might've not inherited the algebraic structure of V?
@DannyuNDos Maybe. All in all the question is confusing but with ref to the context, I feel the statement is true
If V is a vector space other than the zero vector space, then V
contains a subspace W such that $W \neq V.$
This is yet another problem, I am having a hard time dealing with.
Let W be the zero space. That will do it.
@DannyuNDos Which question are you referring to? The 1st or the 2nd ?
07:30
(Till now I have posted two problems)
@DannyuNDos ok
What do you mean by zero space @DannyuNDos?
The vector space having only the zero vector as its element.
The "zero vector space" you mentioned, no?
@DannyuNDos Oh, for heaven's sake. I thought $W\neq 0$
The point of the exercise is to remind you that it's important to mention the field. Like $\Bbb{R}$ is a vector space over $\Bbb{Q}$ but not over $\Bbb{C}$
Instead of $V\neq 0$
@SoumikMukherjee So you say, for the problem my intuition as I mentioned i.e field not mentioned , is the reason?
But then again, that's easy to decipher from the context tho
07:34
For that, I think "W might've not inherited the algebraic structure of V" still might be a possibility.
@DannyuNDos might be as I don't have an example bout that possibility at my hand at this moment
One might identify a straight line NOT passing the origin as isomorphic to R, as a subset of R². But that is not a subspace.
Let W be the xy-plane in $R^3;$ that is, $W = {(a_1, a_2, 0): a_1, a_2 ∈ R}.$ Then $W = R_2.$
This is yet another interesting problem
I feel that this is false.
The story is, I was a bit hasty while think $R^2$ and W both represent the xy plane and so are equivalent.
That's actually true because W and R² both have dimension 2.
Vector spaces, as long as they're on the same field, if they have the same dimension, they're isomorphic.
But the real thing is, equivalent and equal can sometimes differ. In this case, I think $R^2$ represents the set of all tuples of 2 real numbers and W is essentially a tuple of length 3 having the last element is zero. As the cardinalities of each tuple in V is different from the cardinality of each in W so no tuples in V are equal to tuples in W and vice versa. Wouldn't you agree with this, @DannyuNDos ?
07:45
In that case, it really depends on the book's definition of =.
I'd agree that they're not equal, tho.
@DannyuNDos There is no such definition of = somewhat mentioned. But do you think my reasoning is correct ?
Oh, that makes sense! Cheers! So the reasoning is, explicitly:
They would've/should've used $\cong$ if they wanted to mean isomorphism.
3 mins ago, by Thomas Finley
But the real thing is, equivalent and equal can sometimes differ. In this case, I think $R^2$ represents the set of all tuples of 2 real numbers and W is essentially a tuple of length 3 having the last element is zero. As the cardinalities of each tuple in V is different from the cardinality of each in W so no tuples in V are equal to tuples in W and vice versa. Wouldn't you agree with this, @DannyuNDos ?
(This few lines are the reasoning)
@DannyuNDos Are these few lines of reasoning stands formal to you?
07:49
Yeah, go on.
@DannyuNDos you mean it does stands formal, right?
Tones get hard to decipher in chat
:)
Though, is this a homework question?
@DannyuNDos nope
I am studying these on my own
I needed some opinions about my logic. To end the conversation, I have this last survey thing left for you, @DannyuNDos:
2 mins ago, by Thomas Finley
@DannyuNDos you mean it does stands formal, right?
07:53
Yes
@DannyuNDos cheers!
I have seen so many highly-upvoted questions about proving inequalities involving cycling over variable, for example this here + the related links. Can someone motivate the interest? Why are these things important/interesting?
So here's my question: I acknowledge that the direct limit of Euclidean spheres exists, and is contractible. But does the inverse limit exist? I think the answer is negative because spheres don't admit lower-dimensional spheres as retracts.
08:13
david: for whatever reason, such problems seem to be very popular in contests. outside of 'contest math' i do not know of any reason to care.
one desirable quality of a contest problem is that it be doable without advanced knowledge (particular, it ought to have at least one way of solving it that is both short and 'low tech'). another desirable quality is that a problem not be "too easy." so, random inequalities where you need to deploy a number of non-obvious but low tech 'tricks' fit the bill.
 
2 hours later…
09:53
Hey @Shaun, do you know Dehn presentation?
or Dehn algorithm in some context
10:31
@onepotatotwopotato I'm afraid not, sorry.
@MathCrackExchange That's interesting (+1)
 
1 hour later…
11:36
@DavidRaveh does it really need a reason/motivation? It could just be for fun like what I do
it’s like a puzzle and puzzles are fun
Also Leslie is right, I’ve encountered numerous such problems on contests. You won’t see them much outside of contests. For example you’ll never find problems like this in a standard high school mathematics textbook or even college entrance exam prep books
 
2 hours later…
13:18
@DavidRaveh My guess is that there is a small cadre of folk on the site who really like these kinds of problems, and they have a kind of mutual admiration society.
@XanderHenderson as a member of said society, I can confirm this is true
The problems themselves are not, so far as I can tell, terribly interesting, nor do they lead to any deep results in analysis or anything. But I think that they come up on competitions, sometimes.
^what he said
Where did all the stars go?
 
1 hour later…
14:36
what is the meaning of a univariate 1-parameter distribution whose mean and variance have an inverse relationship with the parameter?
@geocalc33 Well, parse the words.
"Univariate" means one variable.
"1-parameter" means that there is a family of distributions, which are all the same, up to some parameter which changes the distribution in some way. For example, the normal distribution is a 2-parameter distribution (mean $\mu$ and variance $\sigma^2$); the exponential distribution is a 1-parameter family.
@XanderHenderson what I'm saying is: "This doesn't happen for any distribution I've ever encountered."
@geocalc33 Well, that isn't what you said.
Also, doesn't that sentence describe the Poisson distribution?
(Though I suppose that it depends on how you present things... Do you take the parameter in the Poisson distribution to be the mean? or the reciprocal of the mean?)
I've never run into a distribution that "encodes" its mean and variance into one parameter I guess. Meaning that the mean and variance depend on the parameter! In most cases the mean is explicitly listed in the distribution function
Or it is almost an exponential distribution (an exponential distribution with parameter $\lambda$ has mean $1/\lambda$, and standard deviation $1/\lambda$, right?).
@geocalc33 Again, look at a Poisson or exponential distributions.
14:49
@XanderHenderson Okay
15:07
I think contest math are just for fun, is it?
I mean yes, I often find myself reading them, but I doubt if one wants to be good in mathematics, whether he/she should focuss on them or not.
Contest math are just like, "Find the Easter Egg!"
In general, they are good for some casual puzzles in your leisure time.
Not anything more (,maybe)
Speaking of contest math
Any ideas?
Yes line segment MN is parallel to AB
15:27
@冥王Hades Genuinely don't care. :P
15:43
I should put a bounty on it
I dont understand the part c)
@ThomasFinley that's foolish thinking
@Jakobian ok
Contest math is also about competition, proving yourself, boosting your ego, it also can be very stressful
@Jakobian are they productive?
15:53
Wdym productive. As a way of activity? I guess
You have the right to believe what you think, but I just wrote what I felt. Ofc, different people has different opinions
Let's stop the debate. Sorry, for starting it tho
It's based on people that experienced how competition is like
It's not my opinion
Pardon me for that, but now I will return back to my question.
I concur with Jakobian, it has a lot to do with ego. That’s admittedly one of my reasons for participating in math contests
Does the ring R^{\tilde} has a unit element at all?
I think no such exist.
I have good reasons for it tho
15:56
-1
@冥王Hades all the best!
@Jakobian -\ _(- _ -)_/-
The map $R\to \tilde R$ given by $x\mapsto x-1$ is a bijection and it gives $\tilde R$ a structure of unital ring
@冥王Hades Oh, g-d... please don't. :/
@Jakobian They can also be helpful in college applications and graduate school admissions, though only if you are very, very good.
@XanderHenderson Now I’m really gonna do it
If you score better than 10 on a Putnam exam, for instance, you might be put a little closer to the top of the pile of applications at top-tier grad programs.
15:59
@XanderHenderson that's true I guess. But it's still stressful
@XanderHenderson Yep, almost everyone who participated and did well on math contests with me got into TokyoU
Though if you do well on the Putnam, you probably have a pretty impressive application, otherwise, too.
@冥王Hades There is a sampling bias there.
Yeah I realize, but there might be some correlation
I think the mental punishment for failing might be way worse than the reward for achievement here.
@Jakobian Oh, I think that these kinds of competitions are pointless. I don't like them---they feel antithetical to how I believe mathematics should be done (they are individualistic, rely on "tricks", and use time in a way that is unrealistic in the "real world"). I never participated in any of them.
16:01
Depends on the person. I guess people enjoy competing in itself too
@Jakobian Sure. Some people enjoy golf, too.
I'm not one of those people. :P
My problem with mathematics competitions is that so many people seem to equate doing well in competition with being a good mathematician. I think that the correlation is overstated.
Anecdotally, some of us who find high school math curriculum to be too easy/boring/slow also chose to participate in math contests
@XanderHenderson I think a lot of people that do good on those type of competitions don't even pursue math...? Not sure
Not all of them pursue mathematics in undergrad or beyond, yes
@Jakobian Indeed.
16:05
The ego part is not much different to why I also participate in competitive gaming. It’s all ego
We hear about the people who do well in competition, then go on to do well in mathematics. We don't really ever hear about the people who do well in competition, and flame out as undergrads or graduates; nor do we really hear about the people who are fabulously successful and never participated in these kinds of competitions.
So the impression that one is left with is that these kinds of competitions are some kind of predictor of success. Seems like confirmation bias.
Maybe it’s the faulty news cycles
@XanderHenderson personally, I don't care about geometry problems at all either. They can't really be used anywhere outside of competition math, and usually the arguments for proving them are different from the kind of formal deduction in mathematics that I enjoy.
They are like puzzles
@Jakobian Indeed.
@冥王Hades Yes. And I'm not a big fan of puzzles. I also don't like golf.
16:09
@XanderHenderson have you played golf though
What about mini-golf
The idea of hitting a vulnerable little ball so hard it flies off into outer space seems fascinating to me
This thesis looks relevant, though I don't have access to the whole document (only the abstract and ToC; not the conclusions).
@Jakobian Almost as bad.
@冥王Hades That isn't golf.
Baseball?
Yes, lol
16:12
@冥王Hades Love to watch baseball. Don't really want to play it.
But I think that you are thinking of Blernsball.
@XanderHenderson you’re welcome to play soccer against me then (you’ll lose)
@冥王Hades The fact that you think that it is important that you win is why this will never happen. I simply don't care.
@XanderHenderson well losing isn’t exactly fun either is it?
I was a competitive athlete 20 years ago. I'm in my 40s now. I have no expectation that I can keep up with a teenager, and have nothing to prove by trying.
if you had to would you rather win or lose?
16:14
@冥王Hades I would rather play for fun. I don't need to keep score to do that.
Verve is important for teenagers I guess
Also I’m not a teenager come on, I just turned 21 a little over a week ago
You're a teenager
@冥王Hades Great. Then stop acting like a teenager.
But my point stands: I have nothing to prove to someone who is half my age.
16:15
I set myself up didn’t I
Of course you are going to "win" any athletic competition against me. I don't have a 20 year old body any more. I don't know why I should care about that.
You two should compete in an integration bee :P
Well I might not win all of them, and the only reason I’d win a soccer game is because I practice soccer almost daily and play for our team here
Hello @Joe, can I check something in your 4th edition of Spivak's Calculus? I don't have the 4th edition, only the 3rd.
To be fair there are 40 year old athletes that’ll smoke me in almost any athletic competition
Joe
Joe
16:18
@sunny: Sure
@Jakobian Cal Poly Pomona had a faculty vs students integration bee every year. I was only adjunct faculty, so not really eligible to compete. But they were fun to watch.
@XanderHenderson you really don’t like competing do you
@冥王Hades Are you familiar with the phrases "outliers" and "tails of a distribution"?
@冥王Hades I really don't, no.
Yeah I know they are extreme outliers.
I don't feel good when I win (because I am beating someone else), and I don't really like losing, either (who does?).
So why compete? It isn't fun.
16:19
I concur with the losing part but you don’t feel good when you win? That’s the first time I’m hearing that
if you beat someone it simply means you did better, what’s to feel bad about it?
@冥王Hades Not particularly, no.
I’d personally go the extra mile and troll them
@冥王Hades Well, most people experience this thing called "empathy", wherein they put themselves into the shoes of another. If you are capable of that, you might understand how someone else feels when they lose, and feel bad for them.
@Joe it concerns theorem 3 in chapter 24. Does Spivak also write in the 4th edition that "$\{f_n\}$ is a sequence of functions which are differentiable on $[a,b]$"?
I don't particularly enjoy making other people feel bad. I know what it feels like to lose, and don't really enjoy making other people feel that way.
16:21
@XanderHenderson Empathy? Is this a new dessert?
So winning doesn't really feel all that great.
@冥王Hades You're trolling, now.
Yeah I am.
I mean you could also encourage the loser to do better next time, it doesn’t have to be black and white like that
Joe
Joe
@sunny: Yes, that is one of the hypotheses placed on $\{f_n\}$, among others.
When I win someone in a math-related context in any sense, I feel good for about 10 seconds or maybe 20. But after that, I almost immediately felt: What's the point of all this?
@冥王Hades but losing still occurs
16:24
@Jakobian welcome to reality
@Joe Ok, I was a little confused by the closed interval $[a,b]$ rather than the open one, since he hasn't really talked about differentiability on closed intervals throughout the book
we can’t all be winners, unfortunately
@冥王Hades welcome to totally misunderstanding Xander's point and then bragging
2
I understand what he’s getting at. He knows how it feels to lose and doesn’t want to be the reason someone else feels that way
Joe
Joe
@sunny: It means that $f$ is differentiable on $(a,b)$ in the usual sense, $f$ is right differentiable at $a$, and $f$ is left differentiable at $b$. I believe Spivak first uses this convention when he introduces the Fundamental Theorem of Calculus (and it is fairly standard).
16:26
@Joe ok, thanks a lot for checking!
we are all biologically designed to feel good after winning, for a very short time, then that passes. If we felt good for longer than a short time this would be an evolutionary disadvantage
Treadmill theory
Or was it hedonistic treadmill? I forgor
@冥王Hades I think you do ... but at the same time you don't. Not fully grasping the idea because you have your own opinion that replaces his
@Jakobian I just added to his opinion that he could also help the loser feel better by encouraging them to do better next time. I don’t know if it’ll help a lot but it’s worth a try
Joe
Joe
@sunny: Note that if all points in $[a,b]$ are in the interior of the domain of $f$, then we could define "differentiable on $[a,b]$" to mean $f$ is differentiable at every point of $[a,b]$. That would be a different definition to the one I just gave, and I am fairly sure I have seen yet another different definition of "differentiability on $[a,b]$". I think it is best practice to explain what you mean by "differentiability on $[a,b]$" before using it.
16:31
@冥王Hades you don't need to encourage someone if you don't compete in the first place
@冥王Hades Alternatively, I can choose to engage in activities where there are not winners and losers. I can choose to do things where individual or team success aligns with group success.
So you agree with Madara. A world without victors or the vanquished
@Joe true
@冥王Hades I have no idea who that is.
Personally I like competing especially if it's fun like playing die with a friend
16:36
But I didn't say anything about "the world". I explained my own preferences.
Joe
Joe
@sunny: One of the issues with differentiability and continuity (in the context of introductory analysis) is that continuity on closed sets like $[a,b]$ is arguably a more natural notion than continuity on $(a,b)$. I believe the abstract reason for this is that closed intervals are compact, and there are a lot of theorems about continuous functions on compact sets. On the other hand, differentiability is a more natural notion in the context of open intervals (or at least open sets).
No suicide-theme messages please
@Joe yeah, I find writing "differentiable on $[a,b]$" very unintuitive
@XanderHenderson Madara Uchiha from Naruto. See above image
Hashirama’s victim
16:43
@Jakobian Oh, bad shonen anime. Meh.
@sunny The way things are defined in elementary calculus classes, it would generally be wrong to claim that a function is differentiable at the boundaries. The language just isn't developed.
Joe
Joe
@sunny: Also, one-sided differentiability doesn't generalise particularly nicely to higher dimensions. There are directional derivatives, but just knowing that the directional derivatives in all directions exist doesn't tell you much. For instance, a map $f:\mathbb R^2\to\mathbb R$ could be discontinuous at a point, even though its directional derivatives in all directions exist. So I think you are right to find intunintuitive
@XanderHenderson now you are trolling aren’t you
Which is not to say that it couldn't be developed, but it isn't.
@XanderHenderson yeah. Not worth watching
Right. Let’s watch Sailor Moon win over the hearts of galactic dictators with the “power of love”
16:46
It might also be worth noting that one of the more important theorems of introductory calculus is the mean value theorem (because the MVT is used to build so much theory). The hypotheses of the MVT are that the function being considered is continuous on a closed interval (the function has to be defined at the endpoints), and differentiable on the interior of that interval.
Today I'm going to read the proof of how to obtain, from a $T_3$ space that isn't functionally Hausdorff, a $T_3$ strongly connected space
Interesting.
@冥王Hades If I don't want to watch bad shonen anime, why would you automatically assume that I want to watch bad shojo anime?
Brian Scott calls this "Eric's spaghetti machine"
what if the function develops singularities at the endpoints
16:48
@geocalc33 Then it is not continuous on that closed interval, and the MVT doesn't apply.
but is otherwise smooth on the interval
Okay
I thought people loved sailor moon.
@Jakobian That don't make it good. :P
@XanderHenderson It’s hard to explain unless you’ve been in online anime forums a lot
Joe
Joe
@geocalc33: Take $f:[0,1]\to\mathbb R$ given by $f(x)=x$ for $x\in[0,1)$ and $f(1)=0$. Then, there is no $x\in(0,1)$ such that $f'(x)=0$. So the hypothesis of continuity on endpoints is needed.
16:51
@Jakobian On the contrary, Toei animation dropped the idea of adapting the manga any further because the 2016 movie did horribly in terms of sales and merchandise
I don't see why you couldn't just use a limit argument to conclude that although the curve is not defined precisely on the boundary points of the closed interval, it gets arbitrary close to being defined on those points
@冥王Hades well the Japanese and foreign reaction to anime can differ a lot
sailor moon, iirc, is mostly liked by South Americans because it used to air there
In other words, the function accumulates to those boundary points.
@Jakobian same thing with Saint Seiya, and the reason Toei is no longer bothering with it much is the exact same reason as that of sailor moon
@geocalc33 Can you give an example?
Also, the Mean Value Theorem explicitly says something about the boundary points, so...
16:59
are we arguing about differentiability at the endpoints vs differentiability as being extended to a smooth function?
@Joe ah, yes, it is what you were arguing
@geocalc33 So you mean that $f(a^+)$ and $f(b^-)$ are still defined? Wouldn't that be the same theorem just applied to a new function $g(x) = f(x)$ for $x\in (a, b)$, $g(a) = f(a^+)$ and $g(b) = f(b^-)$
it's only seemingly weaker assumption
@Jakobian correct
I mean I do like this question you rised
because perhaps $f(a^+)$ exists in some other way than the standard limit
e.g. defined similarly to Cesaro means
well I don't know how would you define "Cesaro limit"
how would one do that?
eh... too complicated
I found some generalizations of MVT but nothing reducing the assumption on the boundary conditions
17:36
@Jakobian interesting, I'll take a look
I found a theorem weakening the differentiability assumption
If $f$ is continuous in $[a, b]$, differentiable from both sides on $(a, b)$, then $\frac{f(b)-f(a)}{b-a} = pf'_+(c) +qf_{-}'(c)$ for some $c\in (a,b)$ and $p+q = 1, p, q\geq 0$
i.e. convex combination of one-sided derivatives
I think studying by myself is good and worked for me so far. But people say that it's better to study together with colleagues. I tried once long ago but I felt like it was wasting time. I mean understanding concepts by reading various books seems to me more effective in the long term than discussing with colleagues. If I'm planning to solve some research level problem then I guess discussing with colleagues would be helpful, but not for solving some exercise problems or homework problems.
@robjohn do you know of any theorems that would generalize mean value theorem for a function $f:[a, b]\to\mathbb{R}$ ? The standard way of expressing MVT could be thought of as the limits $f(a^-)$ and $f(a^+)$ existing. I'm wondering if this can be weakened
17:53
@Jakobian Think about what can go wrong at the boundary.
If a function is continuous on $(a,b)$, then what can possibly go "wrong" at $a$?
@XanderHenderson I'm not looking for a counter-example
shouldn't that much be obvious
@Jakobian I'm not suggesting that.
What I am suggesting is that if you want to generalize the theorem, you need to look at the ways it can go wrong.
So, it could be that nothing goes wrong, and $f$ can be continuously extended to $a$. Great. MVT applies.
I see. Well, I think $f$ needs to approach the endpoints in some sense
If not, it suggests that there is some kind of pole or essential singularity at $a$.
In that case, what kind of statement are you looking for? $$\frac{f(b)-f(a)}{b-a}$$ blows up. This is Bad News Bears for the MVT.
perhaps by means of $\lim_{y\to a^+}\frac{1}{y-a}\int_a^y f(x)\mathrm{d} x = f(a)$
I think ^ would be good start
17:59
But, like, to what end? What theorems follow? What's the goal?
well, mean value theorem
$(f(b)-f(a))/(b-a) = f'(c)$ for some $c\in (a, b)$
You can already make statements about that integral (as in improper Riemann integral, for example) without needing some nebulous generalization of MVT.
I believe this means $a$ is a Lebesgue point of $f$
@Jakobian The MVT isn't a goal unto itself. It is only interesting because it is so useful for proving other theorems.
sure, this is just to explore
18:02
There is almost certainly some version of the MVT Lebesgue integrals.
So, I think, this might hold: If $f:[a, b]\to\mathbb{R}$ is differentiable in $(a, b)$ and $a, b$ are Lebesgue points of $f$, then $\frac{f(b)-f(a)}{b-a} = f'(c)$ for some $c\in (a, b)$
But, even then, I would imagine that $f$ needs to be a pretty nice function. The theorem pretty crucially relies on the intermediate value property.
(This would be for a theorem which gets you a $c$ such that $f(c) = \frac{1}{b-a} \int_{[a,b]} f(x)\,\mathrm{d}x$, or whatever the right statement is).
Trying to muster up the will to bother with my numerical analysis homework
the point isn't to introduce integrals for the sake of having MVT about them, but to reduce the assumption of continuity at the endpoints by replacing it by a weaker condition
like Lebesgue points above
it's about being able to apply MVT to a larger amount of functions
@Jakobian Okay... but the statement I suggested is a version of MVT for a larger class of functions (i.e. functions defined by integrals of Darboux functions).
18:06
What happened to \mathcal? It's all broken now
Or, equivalently, a MVT theorem for Lebesgue integrals, analogous to the MVT for Riemann integrals.
oh, yes, I see what you mean
yeah, I suppose MVT for integrals generalizes the standard MVT
@Jakobian Yeah, it is a pretty natural consequence of the MVT, and it typically the first step in proving the FTC.
So, like, kinda a big deal. :P
That feeling when knee surgery is in 5 days:
18:52
Does studying the behavior of a random walk usually focus on mathematics or simulation?
Joe
Joe
@user10478: I can't give you a definite answer, but my understanding is that random walks on $\mathbb Z$ are already very well understood mathematically, and so is there is not so much need for simulation. On the other hand, I would presume that in a more complicated set-up, simulation would play a larger role
Yeah I'm thinking about continuous-space random walks in multiple dimensions.
Maybe with nontrivial rules to govern the evolution.
@user10478 I study the mathematics. Others think about simulation.
@user10478 "Continuous-space random walks in multiple dimensions" are Brownian motion, no?
I believe Brownian motion must also be continuous-time.
19:11
I don't know much about the study of continuous-space discrete-time random walks. How do you define such a thing?
That said, my guess is that, in the Euclidean case, the limiting behaviour is still going to be classical Brownian motion. There's a theorem whose name I can't remember right now which suggests that things must converge to the usual Brownian motion.
Donsker.
Basically, if I recall correctly, Donsker tells you that if you have any kind of reasonable notion of "random walk", as you scale the space and time increments to zero (in an appropriate manner), the process will converge (in a meaningful sense) to Brownian motion.
I am interested in a setup in which voters have fixed, numeric preferences over multiple issues, and face a sequences of policy proposals comprised of random values for each issue. The proposals are discarded from the sequence unless they pass a majority rule vote.
@user10478 s/comprised/composed/
This is a hint at what the geometry would look like.
The green area is the policies that pass for the three circled voters. There would also be policy proposals that pass based on other sets of voters.
"A pizza comprises several slices" vs "Several slices compose a pizza".
gotcha
I'm interested in the long run behavior of a random sequence of these policy proposals, including in higher dimensions.
19:27
@XanderHenderson simulation is helpful for studying mathematics behind it
that said I don't understand the question
Engineers when they see an engine:
@Jakobian Sure. I wasn't making a general statement. I was simply saying that I am interested in the mathematics of random walks (particularly in non-Euclidean spaces, e.g. on fractals, or in the $p$-adics).
@Jakobian No, I don't, either.
19:44
Wonder how much money MSE could fetch if it launched a paid homework service
perfect fields are the ones that are popular right?
@冥王Hades It would be competing in an already fairly saturated field. I doubt it would do well.
@Jakobian Yup.
what's the easiest way to see that irreducible polynomials over field of characteristic $0$ are separable?
i.e. don't have multiple roots in algebraic closure
Look at the gcd of $f$ and $f’$.
ah, because it must be equal $1$ from irreducibility
19:57
Is region of convergence of $f \circ g$ more subtle where $f,g$ are p-adic functions?
oh, so this doesn't work for finite characteristic because of things like $x^p$ having derivative that's $0$
Right.
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