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12:41 AM
Hi everyone
Excuse me, have a small question
I just started Smullyan's Beginner's Guide to Mathematical Logic
However, by my estimation and what I was able to check via Wolfram Alpha, the very first exercise is asking me to prove that a statement is valid, which is invalid...
(A union B)' inter C = (C inter A') union (C inter B')
Previously he shows an example where A = (1, 2, 3, 4), B = (1, 2, 5, 6), C = (1, 3, 5, 7). My understanding would be that (A union B)' = (7, 8), thus intersection with C is (7).
The other side is clearly not (7) so I'm a bit confounded.
 
@JakeS: So the universe is the numbers 1 through 8? Anyhow, there is a typo, or you misread the problem. It should be intersection on the right hand side.
 
Yes, with 1 outside A, B, C. I agree that the right side should be intersection
It's definitely a typo, but I was quite nonplussed when I saw the first exercise has an error, haha
 
Yeah, that is sorta discouraging.
I actually knew Smullyan centuries ago. ... I didn't know anyone still looked at his stuff.
 
I'm a big fan of Smullyan's recreational logic books, hopefully this one isn't a let down, but maybe I should just go straight to Velleman's How to Prove It instead.
 
My recollection of Velleman's book is that he does way too many things symbolically for my taste. I am very fond of Houston's How to Think Like a Mathematician ...
 
12:57 AM
I'm a first year undergrad with a weak background from high school looking to improve my ability to do proofs, as my university doesn't offer an introductory course in the matter
Internet loves to praise Velleman's book as a successor to Polya's How to Solve It
Would you recommend that one, then?
Houston's book, that is.
 
Yeah, I think it's better to be less symbolic and formal, but some people love symbols.
Amazing, as — at least in the US — now everyone offers "intro to higher math" type courses. And Houston wrote his book in England, if I remember correctly.
If you can find Houston's book in a library, look at it before you make a commitment.
 
I'm in South America :P
 
Ah, that explains it ... :)
I also made efforts to give guidance on how to think about math and proofs in the introductory (proof-oriented) linear algebra book I wrote a while ago. If you're in Brazil, there's even a Portuguese translation.
I need to get going, but good luck and chat later.
 
hi ted
bye ted
 
Thanks Ted!
 
1:09 AM
@TedShifrin the guy in Eberlein-Smulyan?
 
1:21 AM
@JakeS You might find "A concise introduction to pure mathematics" by Martin Liebeck a nice read
 
2:15 AM
Given a semi-simple Lie algebra, if we wanted to analyze it we could take the largest set of ad-diagonalizable commuting elements (Cartan subalgebra) and ask what happens, great, but why would an abelian ideal spoil this? I know it ends up spoiling the decomposition into su(2)'s/sl(2,C)'s, and it allows for the possibility that a Cartan subalgebra may not exist, but what about cases where it does exist, seems like there is a better reason to ignore solvable Lie algebras from this pov
 
$\text { Suppose that } \{ e , h \} \leq G \text { where } h \neq e . \text { Prove that } h \in Z ( G )$
 
How does one find the intersection of an ellipse and a line: $x^2-4x+4y^2-8y+4=0$ and $11x+14y-38=0$?
I tried setting them equal to one another, and got another ellipse.
 
@SharathZotis I can't.
 
doesn't this just come from the fact that $h \in G$ and so by definition $h \in Z(G)$
 
nah, what are some (non-abelian) groups that you know?
 
2:26 AM
what do you mean by that @KarlKronenfeld, the statement is true right?
 
@SharathZotis idk, does it work for all the groups you know?
 
$d_6$
* $D_6$
 
I believe that intersection is the tangent line between that ellipse and the point (24,8).
 
@SharathZotis Nice, consider a two-element subgroup of D_6
 
${1,x^3}$
 
2:29 AM
Ok, the proposition has to work for all two-element subgroups, so are there any others?
 
we must include 1 as it is $e$
 
yep, so you're just finding elements of order 2
 
{1,y}
 
ok, good. is y in the center?
 
hmmm
Im not sure
 
2:33 AM
well, what is yxy?
(I think I know the notation, but there isn't exactly a standard notation for the generators of D_n)
 
is it not just $e$
 
That would be problematic. yxy=e implies xy=y (multiplying on both sides by y and using y^2=e). Then doing the same thing again, we get x = e.
 
I think this is a true statement
v
2
Q: Let $K$ be a normal subgroup of order 2 in group $G$, show that $K$ lies in the centre of $G$

Neptune Let $K$ be a normal subgroup of order 2 in group $G$, show that $K$ lies in the centre of $G$. Describe a surjective homomorphism of the orthogonal group $\mathrm{O}(3)$ onto $C_2$ and another onto the special orthogonal group $\mathrm{SO}(3)$.

 
key term is normal subgroup
I have an answer too on this fact: math.stackexchange.com/questions/706078/…
 
@bolbteppa i think the fact that a semisimple lie algebra is really a bunch of sl2 "glued" together in some sense is really crucial to its classification so at least there's that.. i suspect without it things will become much harder - but i dont know anything beyond the semisimple case
 
2:49 AM
Yeah it is
 
3:14 AM
say you have a set of curves $y=mx$ intersecting a class. what is the categorization of the solution space called?
I think it is called a variety but I'm not sure
 
3:32 AM
is "f restricted to the set E is continuous" the same thing as saying that $the function if continuous on the set E"
the function is continuous on the set E*
 
 
2 hours later…
5:54 AM
In matrix multiplication is $A\times k B = k \times A \times B $ ?
Where k is a scalar.
nvm got it
 
6:12 AM
anybody familiar with uniformizer of DVR
 
hello, how to prove that the center of a division ring is a field?
i mean isint tautological?
or am missing something ?
the center is an abelian group and every elemnt is invertible since we are in an integral domain, so that is the defintion of a field
DF has some strange exercices
 
@user100000000000000 No, it is not. Pick your favourite nowhere continuous function and restrict it to a point! For a more interesting example consider the indicator function of the rationals, restricted to the irrationals
 
6:35 AM
@Jacksoja you have to prove that if $x$ is in the center, then so is $x^{-1}$ (if you know already that the center is always a subring)
 
@MatheinBoulomenos I understand that but am not sure how to do that
 
Incidentally, for $\Bbb H$ (the only division ring I can think of at the moment), the center is $\Bbb R$
@Jacksoja You need to prove that if $xy=yx$ then $x^{-1}y=yx^{-1}$
 
isnt that already assuming that x' exists?
 
It's a division ring. All inverses exist (unless $x$ is zero).
 
yes yes true thanks
still getting familiar with the definitions
so the point of this exercice is to give us a way to construct fields from division rings
by computing the center
 
6:42 AM
Let $N$ be a finite subgroup of group $G$, and suppose $G=\langle T\rangle$ and $N=\langle S\rangle$, for some subsets $S$ and $T$ of $G$, then $N$ is normal in $G$ if and only if $tSt^{-1}\subseteq N$ for all $t\in T$. Please give me a counterexample saying that this criterion to check if subgroup is normal fails when $N$ not finite.
 
come to think of it, in your example akiva, if we consider the hamiltonian over Z
the center is the elements of the form a+0i+0j+0k , does not mke Z into a field no ?
 
13 hours ago, by Will Hunting
I sort of like very sharp versions of theorems, like using minimal assumptions to prove maximal results.
 
Hamilton over Z is not a division ring then.........
alright sorry ! ^^
 
💥(above)=class of all sharp theorems
 
@Silent consider $G$ the free group on two generators $G=\langle x,y \mid \rangle$ $T=\{x,y\}$, $S=\{y^nxy^{-n} \mid n \in \Bbb N\}$
 
6:52 AM
Hi, does anyone know something about projective transformations?
 
@MatheinBoulomenos I am sorry if this is due to my ignorance but what does $|$ in $G=\langle x,y \mid \rangle$ represent?
 
it's generators and relations
there are two generators and no relations
 
ok
 
for example $\Bbb Z \oplus \Bbb Z = \langle x,y \mid xyx^{-1}y^{-1}\rangle$, the $\mid$ seperates generators and relations in a group presentation
 
i see.
so i am going to learn more about free groups today.
@MatheinBoulomenos Can I think $G=\langle x,y \mid \rangle$ as $\mathbb R\times \mathbb-(0,0)$ under multiplication?
Oh! perhaps not
 
7:00 AM
it's not commutative, yeah
 
since even reals under multiplication can't be finitely generated
oh! that was nice
i should have checked first commutativity.
 
7:13 AM
Mornin' y'all
 
7:24 AM
yo
 
residue field of Z is Z/pZ RIGHT
 
RHV=1
 
Mornin' @ÍgjøgnumMeg
 
7:41 AM
@Mathein how ya doin'?
 
Update on the dedekind finite proof: Ok so while it works for the finite case, I cannot be certain whether it works for the dedekind finite case. Better see how Asaf and Noah handle this first, I felt I am missing one more bijection to show that the leftovers is not a singleton
 
7:57 AM
@Secret what is Z_(p)/pZ IN NUMERATOR it is Z localize a p and denominator it is pZ
 
I currently don't know ring theory to answer that question
RHV=1
Also please don't shout
 
8:11 AM
@Ninja $\Bbb Z_{(p)} = \lbrace \frac{a}{b} : a,b \in \Bbb Z, p \nmid b \rbrace$
alternatively, $\Bbb Z_{(p)} = \lbrace k \in \Bbb Q : v_p(k) \geq 0\rbrace$ where $v_p$ is the $p$-adic valuation
it is then easier to see what $\Bbb Z_{(p)}/p\Bbb Z_{(p)}$ is
 
guys I? have a few projective geometry doubts
Can anyone talk?
 
8:27 AM
@Holo food for thought:
First, you want "union of pairs" to be a "disjoint union of pairs", otherwise any set with two elements or more is even. Now, what if it cannot be expressed as a union of pairs, but can be expressed as a union of sets of size $4$? — Asaf Karagila ♦ 8 mins ago
hmm... I suspect any finite set of even natural number should be partitionable into pairs so a disjoint union of 4s should be partitionable into a disjoint union of pairs because for each 4s we can split that into two pairs... o wait a minute, then I am making an uncountable number of splittings which it might not exist without choice or without a given bijection, hmmm... — Secret 21 secs ago
So you can have strongly even sets that are not weakly even
Or put it in another way, unions are not associative when choice fails
Asaf also answered. Effectively, in trying to map that singleton and assuming bijection, we set up a shift mapping and thus introduced a countable subset, thus blowing up dedekind finiteness
 
9:06 AM
Hi everynody I have a mathematc question and I want to latex that
 
@user602338 hmm?
 
9:21 AM
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9:59 AM
@Secret lol
 
10:19 AM
I have a small question regarding the semidirect product. Consider a group $G$ which is the semidirect product $\mathbb{Z}_3 \ltimes (\mathbb{Z}_7 \times \mathbb{Z}_7)$ (internal semidirect product). Let $\phi:\mathbb{Z}_3->Aut(\mathbb{Z}_7 \times \mathbb{Z}_7)$. There will be $\phi_0 ,\phi_1 ,\phi_2$ corresponding to $\bar{0},\bar{1},\bar{2}$ of $\mathbb{Z}_3$, right?
 
Hi. Question here. I have three skew lines in projective space $\mathbb{P}^4$. I want to show that there is a projective transformation such they can be described in this way: $\{(x_0,x_1,x_2,x_3):x_1=x_0=0 \}$, $\{(x_0,x_1,x_2,x_3):x_2=x_3=0 \}$ and $\{(x_0,x_1,x_2,x_3):x_0=x_2 \text{ and } x_1=x_3\}$. Is the best way to go just trying to work in $\mathbb{R}^4$?
 
11:08 AM
@MatheinBoulomenos I can't figure out why $\langle S\rangle$ is not normal. Shall I try $g\langle S\rangle g^{-1}$ is proper subgroup of $\langle S\rangle$, or that $gsg^{-1}\notin \langle S\rangle$ for some $s\in \langle S\rangle$?
 
@Secret Asaf's answer is very nice, I knew we need some kind of b-and-forth proof, I just couldn't find it
 
@Karl You probably meant $\mathbb{P}^3$, but yes
 
Hi @loch
Yes, I meant P^3
 
I am reading a small section in Herrlich's Axiom of Choice, and in the proofs of the various properties of dedekind finite sets, it is quite similar in that often restrictions of bijections are considered and then finding some reference point to make the choices
 
The thing is it's pretty easy to express the first two non skew lines in that way
 
11:12 AM
It is possible most of the elementary proofs in choiceless set theories have similar approaches
 
Also what you said is correct @Secret partitions of 4 require choice to implies partitions of 2(we choose bijective from a four elements to {0,1,2,3} and make a partition of $\bigcup_{x\in P_4,n\in\{0,2\}}\{f_x(n),f_x(n+1)\}$)
 
as when I pull them up to R^4 they are basically two planes whose direct sum is R^4
But once I have the like that I cannot prove that there is a transformation setting the third line in that way
 
@Secret, are you a university student? just curious. The subject that you discuss here in this chat is related to mathematical logic, right?
 
@Silent note that what can fail is conjugation by inverses of elements of the generating set.
 
@Secret not all of them, but there are few. For example Schröder–Bernstein theorem is usually being proven in a similar method
 
11:15 AM
@Silent yup I am a chemistry PhD who have a massive interest in infinite sets
(and other weird things)
 
ok :)
 
Well, @Secret , you think even finite sets are weird(not that they are not but still)
 
Well, trying to define them without natural objects (e.g. natural numbers) is pretty hard and I don't have enough time to read in detail how it is done.
and they form the basis of induction
 
Hmm, they pretty much defined as inductive set :)
$\emptyset\in\Bbb N\land (a\in \Bbb N\implies S(a)\in\Bbb N)$
 
and also, how it is impossible to have an "unordered finite set" unless you are Valve and cannot count to 3
 
11:23 AM
What? I missed the joke $\ddot\frown$
 
I think if there are infinite creatures out there, they will probably find this fact very nonintunitive
here's an overview. Basically, they like to release games such that it is 1, 2 and something else, but never 3 appeared in the title. Half life in particular it goes 1, 2 episode 1, episode 2
 
Well, assuming AC even infinite sets can not be "unordered" is some sense
@Secret Ohh
 
Also if I recall, finite fields are much more complicated than their infinite counterparts
so there is a lot of weirdness in finite objects especially when modular arithmetic is involved
 
@TobiasKildetoft You mean $x^{-1}(y^nxy^{-n})x$ or $y^{-1}(y^nxy^{-n})y$? i think latter is indeed in $\langle S\rangle$. and so is $x^{-1}(y^nxy^{-n})x=y^0x^{-1}y^0(y^nxy^{-n})y^0xy^0$.
 
I don't argue that they are not weird, I am just saying most people that didn't study focus on math won't think that way
 
11:28 AM
@Secret so which book/reading you read?
 
@Silent The only substantial book I have read more than 2 chapters is Munkres. That is largely motivated by trying to understand infinite objects and weird spacetime topologies
I have a huge list of books which I still don't have time to read more than 10 pages
 
ok
 
@Silent Is $y^{-1}xy$ in the subgroup generated by $S$?
 
The library spans from set theory, classical logic, abstract algebra, basic category theory, etc. to special functions
I wish I can do things at least inaccessibly fast. Then I will finish my PhD and all my reading list in just one second
but then, what's the point of learning if one can learn inaccessibly fast
 
@TobiasKildetoft oh! $S$ consists of only positive integer powers! or nonnegative integer powers? otherwise $x\notin \langle S\rangle$, right?
 
11:33 AM
right
 
@Secret $\omega$-Inaccessibly ?
 
lol
 
Even more!?
 
You can go all the way up to kunen inconsistency (where you can end up with contradictions) in ZFC and Super Reinhart cardinal in ZF
 
@Secret $\kappa=\aleph_\kappa$-inaccessibly !!!!??????
 
11:35 AM
That is almost nothing compared to weird things called rank into rank cardinals which I will need a much stronger understanding of model theory to understood them
 
Thank you tobias!
 
@Secret just use the wholeness axiom ;)
 
@TobiasKildetoft Right seems to be one of your favourite words, lol.
 
@WillHunting Right
 
Left
 
11:37 AM
Up
 
(NB, I made that pics on the right)
 
@Secret Whenever i have tried to start learning mathematical logic, i have to end that endeavor because, unlike other math disciplines, in logic, i can't even formulate my questions!
 
@Silent Don't worry, my logic is still shit, so I am no better
 
@Secret Division is undefined in cardinal terms!
 
ok, i will restart next sem
 
11:40 AM
In 2 days my course in formal logic starts
 
My thinking is actually more closer to an artist than a scientist, with weird jumps in logic in my thinking. I actually find formal logic quite painful to follow until I just treat the whole thing as a computer program
 
@Holo which text are they going to use?
 
My personality is one that loves to ponder what happens if certain rules will be broken, but logic is a world that you must follow all the rules without question
I normally don't follow rules if I don't understand them
 
@Silent we don't have required books
 
5
Q: How to divide aleph numbers

MazRecently, I was wondering how division of aleph numbers would work. First, I thought about how finite cardinality division would work. What I came up with was that the result of $A/B$ where $A$ and $B$ are both cardinalities, is the number of times that each element of $B$ had to be mapped to an ...

you can actually do that to some limited extent
 
11:43 AM
@Secret have you heard n j wildberger? u may like his radical approch
 
@Secret meh
 
@Silent Back in my undergrad, he is one of the professors I consulted to share about their research. His approach of putting everything into surds can be very useful if crystallography parameters follow that standard, but ultimately his method is equivalent to the usual sin cos approach as there is a correspondance between them
I have not check with him about his ultrafinite and real number argument though, as at that time I was not as focused on infinity as today
 
wow :)
 
(Well he actually said if you don't like the idea of qudratures and spread, you can always use the equations to convert back to angles and distances)
IMO, there is a place for rational trigonometry, but I have not gone into details yet on reading about how it can help on finding some roots
8
Q: Dedekind-finite arithmetic vs natural numbers arithmetic

user49822It is known that the Dedekind-finite cardinals are closed under addition and multiplication, so one may do arithmetic in them, as opposed to only natural numbers. How much can those two arithmetics be different? For example, can there be a Diophantine equation which is not solvable in the natura...

you can do something more in ZF however because not every cardinals absorb other cardinals due to lack of equiumerous proper subsets
 
@Silent Wildberger is a complete crank and not worth listening to.
 
11:55 AM
@TobiasKildetoft oh! Thanks for heads up. I was going to listen his online lectures on differential geometry and algebraic topology. But I do not find any other online lectures on those topics :(
 
@Silent He might actually know something about those topics. It is just hard to imagine that he does due to his way of addressing anything to do with infinite sets
 
what is a good application for drawing concepts?
 
O that reminds me: whatever you do, avoid his differential geometry lecture. It is universally confirmed to be a disaster in my uni when he was assigned to teach it in 2016, which is why the maths department send him away from teaching that course
 
@Tobias he has a video on almost every sub-topic within mathematics
 
For all others, well, I don't know of any bad reports
 
11:57 AM
@TobiasKildetoft i see
 
it's annoying because his junk videos turn up constantly when searching for other stuff
lol
 
@Alucard start with pencil and paper :-)
 
@user2646 i have no scanner, but want to ask something on MSE (or here)
otherwise i would agree :P
 
The issue is that differential geometry needs the concept of infinitesimals, which cannot exists in an ultrafinitist framework. I have many peers who done that course that year and it is a disaster
 
why does your uni @Secret put up with him?
 
12:04 PM
Well ask UNSW school of maths, I have no idea
For any courses that has nothing to do with infinities, I heard reports that he is actually quite good
 
yeah, his math history courses on YouTube are quite good
 
excerpt from Axiom of Choice Herrlich
well tbh, I don't know of any use of Hamel functions outside of set theory
But they are relatively tame compared to the $\beth_2$ many functions out there
there, fix it for you
I think it is safe to say that nonmeaurable sets have close relationships with geometry since their existence allow the duplication of things by partitioning them
Compared to nuking choice, the weirdness of allowing choice is much less and mostly concentrated in the nonmeasurable sets and certain nonisomorphic structures
The reason why there is a lot more weirdness in choiceless universe mostly because the 5 notions of finiteness are no longer equivalent
 
btw, congrats on Austria getting its second Field medalist
 
12:20 PM
i thought this has something to do with fields :P (just googled it)
 
The following list comprehensively shows Fields Medal winners by university affiliations since 1936 (as of 2018, 60 winners in total). This list considers Fields medalists as equal individuals, regardless of the total number of winners who received the medal each time at an International Congress of Mathematicians (ICM). It does not include affiliations with research institutes such as IAS and MSRI in the United States, as well as IHES and CNRS in France. In this list, universities are presented in descending order starting from those affiliated with most Fields medal winners. The universit...
 
Well if one can made a field out of all field medalist, it can be quite scary
It means for each field medalist, there exists a unique field medalist such that when they meet, both poof out of existence
 
tries to translate a english text into german while the original is in french
 
they have links to their CVs in the references
 
12:39 PM
@TobiasKildetoft, Dummit and Foote says "the property of being normal is an embedding property, that is, it depends on the relation of N to G, not on the internal structure of N itself (the same group N may be a normal subgroup of G but not be normal in a larger group containing G). "
Is this same as saying that being normal subgroup is not transitive?
Oh, i think embedding is a little more general than transitivity.
 
1:28 PM
Anyone here good with mathematical logic? :)
@AlessandroCodenotti
 
@OskarTegby just ask your question
and don't ping people unsolicated
 
1:47 PM
*unsolicited
 
@Silent Oh, thanks for pointing that out! :)
 
@Alessandro is good tho tbf ;)
 
my guess is he/she tried @all :P
 
No @Oskar is here quite regularly so I'd assume he knows that Alessandro does that kind of thing
 
2:02 PM
:D
sorry then
 
2:12 PM
No problemo. :)
It's the same as yesterday.

"(a) Define a $\mathcal{V}_G$-sentence $\varphi$ such that $\varphi$ has arbitrarily large finite models and, for any model $G$, $G$ is a connected graph."

"(b) Find a connected graph that does not model the sentence $\varphi$ you found in part (a)."
I'm thinking that if $E(x,y)$ denotes that "$x$ and $y$ have an edge in common", then creating $K_n$ is just $\forall x_i\forall x_j(E(x_i,x_j)=1)$ where $i\neq j\in\{1,2,\dots,n\}$ for $n\in\Bbb{N}$. I'm not really sure what it would mean that a graph doesn't model the sentence.
 
2:30 PM
Okay. So, that $A$ models $F$, denoted $A\models F$, means that the assignment function $A:S\to\{0,1\}$ for some sentence $S$ gives each atomic formula a truth value of 0 or 1, and that the formula $F$ fulfills that $\mathcal{A}(F)=1$ for some assignment. Seeing this as a truth table, this corresponds to a row in that table, where we have all the assignments of the atomic formulas, and then the formula $F$ which is then fulfilled.

I don't really know what we would have here. An example of a connected graph is $K_n$. I think that something like $\forall x_1,\dots,x_n(E(x_i,x_j)=1)$ construc
 
@OskarTegby maybe explaining it to someone who doesn't know a lot of math will help you understanding the problem yourself. If that's possible, of course.
 
I'm looking at this closed question and trying to understand the answer if I could post a similar one myself. I mean, the original one was closed due to a lack on context. If I could give that, then it should be a valid question.

https://math.stackexchange.com/questions/2260885/define-a-sentence-that-has-arbitrarily-large-finite-models
 
2:50 PM
$\text { Show that } H = \{ 1 , - 1 \} \leq Q _ { 8 }$
$Q_8$ is defined in imgur.com/a/upKZSKQ
I need help finishing this proof.
$\text { Show that } H = \{ 1 , - 1 \} \trianglelefteq Q _ { 8 }$
I started by showing that $H$ is a subgroup of $Q_8$
It remains to show that for all $a \in Q_8 Ha = aH$ or for all $a \in Q_8 aHa^{-1} \subseteq H$
 
Hi, is anyone here familiar with quasiconvexity in hyperbolic spaces?
 
Oh! Algebra. I love algebra! <3
 
$a \in Q _ { 8 }$ $H a = a H \text { or for all } a \in Q _ { 8 }$ $a H a ^ { - 1 } \subseteq H$
Not sure how to show this though, any ideas
 
@OskarTegby was it an answer to my question? :-)
 
@SharathZotis any central subgroup is normal, $\{1,-1\}$ consists of two central elements
 
2:57 PM
I see how do we know it is central again?
 
that's linear algebra: $-1 \cdot A =-A = A \cdot (-1)$ for any 2x2 matrix $A$
 
What would be the elements of $Q_8/H$ if we define quotient group as set of all right cosets
anyone have an idea?
 
$\{\{\pm 1\},\{\pm I\},\{\pm J\},\{\pm K\}\}$, modding out $\{1,-1\}$ is the same thing as identifying each element with its negative
 
So isnt $Q_8/H = Q-8$?
*$Q_8/H = Q_8$
 
no
$Q_8/H$ has four elements
 
3:12 PM
oh because its just the negatives right {-1, -I, -J, -K}
 
not quite, it consists of the four cosets $\{1,-1\},\{I,-I\},\{J,-J\},\{K,-K\}$
 
the idea intuitively is that you identify each element with its negative, so in the quotient, $I$ "becomes the same as" $-I$ for example
 
so isnt that the same as $Q_8$
 
$Q_8$ has 8 elements and is non-abelian and $Q_8/H$ has four elements and is abelian, so no
 
3:16 PM
i see
 
who writes $i,j,k$ in capital
 
If i were to do a cayley table then basicaly I identify with the negatives right @MatheinBoulomenos
 
@LeakyNun Seems like a fine idea if you are using the matrix representations
(except for the potential confusion with the identity matrix)
 
@Laurent: Nope! =)
 
is there a name for this kind of perimeter? the red is what i search a name for: cdn1.imggmi.com/uploads/2018/10/11/…
 
3:28 PM
How would I do a cayley table for $Q_8/H$
 
@SharathZotis one pair of elements at a time
 
would it just be -1*-1 = 1, -I*-I = I, and so on ?
-1* I = -I
 
Perimeter of circumscribed pentagon?
 
Hi. I'm trying to calculate the modulo inverse of a 10x10 matrix A. I have determined that rank(A) == 10 so theoretically the inverse should exist. I've tried multiple computer programs like NumPy and Wolfram Mathematica but all of them says the matrix is "invalid for modulo 64"
 
@TobiasKildetoft is that correct?
 
3:32 PM
@Secret mmh, circumscribing perimeter sounds fine (the pentagon was just an example) thank you :)
 
If anyone can help, I will very appreciate it. The matrix is here and the desired modulo is 64.
[[23 46 21 16 35 17 34 19 12 38]
 [ 5  3 16 27 22  0 15 38 55 14]
 [40 40 63  5  2 51 10 52 41 43]
 [61 54 33 53 43 46 52  8  4 59]
 [47 31 60 37  4 37 27 49 39 55]
 [21 23 26 17 36 44 19  7 62 10]
 [62 54 39 24  3 11 38 36 48 50]
 [ 9 11 32 61 22 13 15 40  1 18]
 [18  0 48 23 58  7 30 60 21 36]
 [17  5 39 50 37 18  4 45  2 13]]
(all are integers between 0 and 63, of course, and so for the inverse matrix)
 
@iBug just beware that Z/64Z isn't an integral domain
so rank doesn't actually mean much
one would even argue that it isn't well-defined
 
@iBug One thing you could do--I think--is compute the eigenvalues of the matrix, and then take them modulo 64; if any of them are zero, then no such inverse exists.
 
@LeakyNun hmmm, I might have forgot that
 
That might not be right though. Someone check me on that
 
3:36 PM
If no such inverse exist, would it be possible to compute column X from matrix A and column B such that AX=B?
 
I don't know if geometric intuition lives in modular arithmetic spaces, if a matrix is not invertible, it must have at least one zero eigenvalue
 
@Fargle you need them to be units, not just nonzero
 
Ah yes good point
 
$Q_8\H = \{ 1 , - 1 \} , \{ I , - I \} , \{ J , - J \} , \{ K , - K \}$
 
@iBug there might not be a unique X
 
3:37 PM
zero divisors f888 the day
 
how to create a cayley table for this?
 
@iBug Start by computing the determinant (this is a lot easier than the eigenvalues)
 
@SharathZotis Do you know how to make a Cayley table for, for example, the group with three elements?
 
I tried computing determinant, and I'm unsure if it's computer precision problems. The value I got is 8 (mod 64).
 
@iBug then it's screwed.
 
3:40 PM
@iBug It can never be a precision issue unless you are using the wrong methods
 
8 is a zero divisor so no inverse
 
Yes, Ik how to do for something simple like $\mathbb{Z}_3$
 
But if the determinant is $8$ then it is not invertible since $8$ is not invertible mod $64$
 
0
Q: Let $\tau$ denote the product topology on $X=X_1 \times X_2$. Then $(X,\tau)$ is a separable space.

Math geekLet $(X_1,\tau_1)$ and $(X_2,\tau_2)$ be separable spaces, and let $\tau$ denote the product topology on $X=X_1 \times X_2$. Then $(X,\tau)$ is a separable space. Proof. $(X_1,\tau_1)$ and $(X_2,\tau_2)$ be separable spaces. So, there exists countable dense subsets $D_1$ of $(X_1,\tau_1)$ and $D...

 
@SharathZo Well, it's the same principle, except your elements are now these cosets.
 
3:41 PM
Am I correct with the proof?
 
OK, then, would there be solutions of X that sacrifices AX=B?
 
so what would like {1,-1} * {I,-I} become ?
 
@Fargle I already forgot how to multiply cosets lol
 
Well, what are all possible products of things in the first set with things in the second set?
 
the determinant is actually 5
so there is an inverse
 
3:42 PM
to have an error accumulation so that it goes from 5 to 8, that sure is a huge numerical error
 
The $\Bbb Z$-determinant is -3261149586563387, to be fair
which is way beyond 32 bits
 
@LeakyNun ok,,, I'm beaten by computer precision again. (NumPy and Wolfram Mathematica)
 
Ah, you need a long to contain that
 
@Fargle would it just be {I, -I}?
 
@SharathZotis Indeed.
 
3:44 PM
Given a 32-bit integer doesn't affect the restriction of modulo 64, potential integer overflows seem harmless
 
Notice that the "identity coset"---i.e. the subgroup you quotiented by---acts like the identity in the quotient group.
 
(unrelated curiosity though) What does it mean geometrically to have a zero divisor as a determinant. how is it differ from a zero determinant matrix...?
 
@Secret Maybe think about it for [[1,0],[0,2]] in $\Bbb Z/4\Bbb Z$
 
@iBug well numPy may be using scientific notation...
 
what about for {J,-J}*{I,-I} = {K,-K}?
 
3:45 PM
so the significant digits are kept
 
@Fargle
 
@iBug As I said, you are then using the wrong methods, since you only run into this if you are not telling the computer to work mod $64$ all the time
 
@LeakyNun yeah that is known (64-bit floating point)
 
@SharathZotis Looks right to me.
In fact, to multiply two cosets, you can just take any elements from the two cosets, multiply them, and then find which coset contains that product.
e.g. $\{J,-J\}\cdot\{I,-I\} = \{K,-K\}$ because $JI = -K$.
in Tigger's voice The wonderful thing about cosets of normal subgroups...
4
 
right. thank you for helping me understand!
 
3:47 PM
No problem.
 
@LeakyNun Thank you very much!!!!!!
I Googled for an online "modulo inverse matrix calculator" and it worked for me!
problem solved!
 
can i remove induction from I(n,k)=I(n-1,k)+I(n-1,k-1)+I(n-2,k-1)
Any idea is appreciated
 

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