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12:04 AM
@LeakyNun hi =p
 
@KasmirKhaan ?
 
Let \(x ,y \in G\)


\(\tau_{g}(xy)=g^{-1}xyg =(g^{-1}xg) (g^{-1}yg)=\tau_{g}(x) \tau_{g}(y)\) thus homomorphism.

\(\tau_{g}(x) = \tau_{g}(y) \Leftrightarrow (g^{-1}xg) = (g^{-1}yg) \Leftrightarrow x=y\) , multiplication by \(g\) on the left and \(g^{-1}\) on the right. this proves that \(\tau_{g}\) is injective.

\(x=gg^{-1}xgg^{-1} =\tau_{g}(g^{-1}xg)\) this proves that \(\tau_{g}\) is surjective.

and since \(\tau_{g} : G \longrightarrow G\) this is an automorphism.

\(\tau_{(gh)^{-1}}(x)= ghxh^{-1}g^{-1} =\tau_{g}^{-1} \tau_{h}^{-1}\) this defines an anti homomorphism.\vspace{5mm}
 
did you change anything?
 
di dyou mean that (gh)^-1
he told us not to shwo abvious steps =p
 
obvious. o-b-v-i-o-u-s.
 
12:07 AM
oh
><
I correct one thing and messed up the other
obvious *
@LeakyNun that is the full Q_2 , can you please out a ) b ) c ? in a good way ?
I can put them now and send ,
i mean where they should be
 
where should they be?
 
ill send now
\begin{document}
	a)
	Let \(x ,y \in G\)


	\(\tau_{g}(xy)=g^{-1}xyg =(g^{-1}xg) (g^{-1}yg)=\tau_{g}(x) \tau_{g}(y)\) thus homomorphism.

	\(\tau_{g}(x) = \tau_{g}(y) \Leftrightarrow (g^{-1}xg) = (g^{-1}yg) \Leftrightarrow x=y\) , multiplication by \(g\) on the left and \(g^{-1}\) on the right. this proves that \(\tau_{g}\) is injective.

	\(x=gg^{-1}xgg^{-1} =\tau_{g}(g^{-1}xg)\) this proves that \(\tau_{g}\) is surjective.

	and since \(\tau_{g} : G \longrightarrow G\) this is an automorphism.
@LeakyNun Done =P
 
170
A: How do I change the `enumerate` list format to use letters instead of the default Arabic numerals?

frabjousWithout any package you could do it by redefining the command \theenumi for formatting the enumi counter. (Also enumii, etc., for nested lists.) \renewcommand{\theenumi}{\Alph{enumi}} inside the environment.... Or better, you could use a package like enumitem which allows, e.g., \usepackage{e...

 
12:30 AM
@LeakyNun \(G_{tor}\) is not empty because \(e\in G_{tor}\)\vspace{5mm}


	Let \(a,b\in G_{tor} \) with order of \(a =n\) and order of \(b=m\)\vspace{5mm}

	\(a\) and \(a^{-1}\) have the same order. so order of \(a^{-1}\) is \(n\)\vspace{5mm}

	Let \(k\) =lcm \((m,n)\)\vspace{5mm}

	\((ab)^{k} =a^{k}b^{k}\) because \(G\) is abelian we can split the powers.\vspace{5mm}

	this proves that the order of \(ab\) is finite so \(ab \in G_{tor}\)\vspace{5mm}

	Close under taking inverse and operation implies \(G_{tor}\) is a subgroup of \(G\)\vspace{5mm}
@LeakyNun this is the third Q
 
ok
 
1:18 AM
Say, why is @Deedlit here?
And do relative extrema include limit points?
 
1:29 AM
@SimplyBeautifulArt No reason, just looking around
 
2:29 AM
Find three positive integers which, upon being multiplied by 3, 5 and 7 respectively and the products divided by 20 , have remainders in arithmetic progression with common difference 1 and quotients equal to remainders.
Anyone know what that says?
or can give me an example of one such integer?
 
@Faust Are you asking for help parsing the line above?
 
Its in my book and i can't read what it says
a translation from that to english would be great
or an example so i can try and reverse engineer its meaning
i understand up to products divided by 20
after that turns gibberish
 
Consider a triple of natural integers {x,y,z}. Further consider the quotients and remainders of 3x/20, 5y/20, and 7z/20. The remainders and quotients are the same consecutive integers. Find {x,y,z}.
 
so 3x/20 =x ?
 
"in arithmetic progression with common difference 1" is an unnecessarily-complicated way of saying "consecutive integers," to my thinking.
@Faust Nope. The (integer) quotient of 3x/20 = the remainder of 3x/20.
 
2:37 AM
whats integer quotient mean?
 
For instance, consider x=12. Then 3x/20 = 1 with a remainder of 16. Those aren't equal, though....
 
so the number of times 20 divides 3x needs to = tthe remainder upon its division?
 
Now consider x=49 =) (Edited: typo)
 
3(21)/20 = 3q +r where r=3
21 gives remainder and quotient 3, 5 ,7
but u say it needs to be for example 3,4,5
?
 
That ^^ means that {21, 21, 21} is not the solution.
The three numbers can be distinct. It's not one number that has this happen when multiplied by 3 or 5 or 7, necessarily.
 
2:44 AM
i think i understand the question just thinking on the solution
do they have to be in order?
or can it be like
3,5,4
?
 
I doubt they're in order. The problem certainly doesn't put that restriction in.
 
63,42,33
ty
 
3:05 AM
np =)
 
 
1 hour later…
4:11 AM
@secret hello
 
Last night dream involves a very basic fact:
There's a maths thing related to sequences, where the main idea is that for any number, it is always between two perfect squares. Using this, one can figure out where its square root is located
e.g. $25 < 30 < 36$
 
@Secret how old is this idea
 
Btw, the squareroot of infinite cardinals is itself
 
2000 years?
@Secret assuming AoC.
 
@Secret I think I've heard of this before.
 
4:17 AM
Not sure, probably dating back to when squareroots were first discovered
because that's how one compute better and better approximation of squareroots by pen and paper
 
@Dodsy which one, the one with cardinals or the one without?
@Dodsy axiom of choice
 
Ah I see.
Not sure.
 
In numerical analysis, a branch of mathematics, there are several square root algorithms or methods of computing the principal square root of a non-negative real number. For the square roots of a negative or complex number, see below. Finding S {\displaystyle {\sqrt {S}}} is the same as solving the equation f ( x ) = x 2 − S = 0 ...
Pick your poison
but yeah, the first squareroot dated back in the BC s
 
I don't know what to do.
My assignment is so hard.
I really don't even know where to start.
 
4:28 AM
try q1
 
lmfao
 
usually i start on question 7 but im alittle ocd
 
I think I'm going to go to bed
 
none of my assinments this time around are particularly hard
 
and pray that I wake up tomorrow with knowledge beyond my years.
 
4:30 AM
but i know how u feel
 
it's due on tuesday :S
 
i start asking questions like mad then
there are smart people here
 
I'm not allowed.
 
not me but others >.>
your not allowed to learn\/
 
I'm only allowed to read the textbooks recommended/assigned
 
4:31 AM
find similiar questions from ur book ad ask em
 
and read my course notes.
 
dont be silly
 
There are no similar questions.
 
then ask for a hint
instead of the answer
 
@Faust Are you also a university student?
 
4:56 AM
[Random]
$\bigcup \alpha$
if $\alpha = 0$. $\bigcup 0 = 0$
if $\alpha = 1$. $\bigcup 1 = \bigcup \{0,\{0\}\} = 0 \cup \{0\} = \{0\} = 1$
If $\alpha = 2$. $\bigcup 2 = \bigcup \{0,\{0\},\{0,\{0\}\}\} = 0 \cup \{0\} \cup \{0,\{0\}\} = \{0,\{0\}\} = 1$
 
1 isn't {0,{0}}
 
oops
 
5:14 AM
$Hi$
$f(x) = \frac{1}{x}$ is a continuous function from $(0,\infty) $ to $\Bbb{R}$
but why it cannot be extended to a continuous function from $[0,\infty)$ to $\Bbb{R}$ ?
like there exists no $c \in \Bbb{R}$ such that by defining $f(0) = c$,I can make $\frac{1}{x}$ a continuous function on $[0,\infty)$
 
5:30 AM
Guys, my book says that $(X,Y)\subset\mathbb R[X,Y]$ is not an ideal generated by a single element. Because if $g\in\mathbb R[X,Y]$ would be a generator of the ideal, then $X$ and $Y$ would be multiples of $g$. Therefore g\neq 0$ and the degree of $X$ and $G$ would be $\leq 0$.

I don’t understand why $X$ and $Y$ would be multiples of $g$. I know that $(g)=\{ rg\mid r\in\mathbb R[X,Y]\}$. This $r\in\mathbb R[X,Y]$ could be any polynomial, so why are we only considering multiples? And apart from that, I don’t understand why the degree would be $\leq 0$?
 
@ShaVuklia wow that is a mess, dood.
 
If $\alpha = 0$. $\bigcup 0 = 0$
If $\alpha = 1$. $\bigcup 1 = \bigcup \{0\} = 0$
If $\alpha = 2$. $\bigcup 2 = \bigcup \{0,\{0\}\} = 0\cup \{0\} = \{0\} = 1$
If $\alpha = 3$. $\bigcup 3 = \bigcup \{0,\{0\},\{0,\{0\}\}\} = 0\cup \{0\} \cup \{0,\{0\}\} = \{0,\{0\}\} = 2$
$\therefore$ If $\alpha = n < \omega$. $\bigcup \alpha = n-1$
what graph, you mean graphs in graph theory or graph of a function?
 
graph of a function
well actually it shouldnt be a function in this case.
It isn't bijective.
and I'm mapping N x N to N.
 
An integer sequence of two variables $s_{a,b}$ is basically mapping ordered pairs $(a,b) \in \Bbb{N} \times \Bbb{N}$ to an integer $y \in \Bbb{N}$
thus $s \in \Bbb{\Bbb{N}}^{\Bbb{N^2}}$
 
But what would x be?
 
5:41 AM
uh, x is catesian product
 
No, sorry.
So we're mapping ordered pairs of Natural numbers to natural numbers.
if we graph it we have a y coordinate
but no x coordinate.
 
I just use y as a label for the image of the map
If you actually plot $s$ you will get a lattice of points seemly tracing out a surface
that is, the graph is 3 dimensional
 
jesus christ...
that's ridiculous.
and exactly what I thought.
 
It's the same thing about function of two real variables, you get a surface
except you only take natural number values and their images
 
But I'm in my second week of first year first semester calculus.
thanks, secret.
 
5:45 AM
Put it simply, $s_{a,b}$ is a mesh with natural number coordinates
they pop up when you integrate something
 
@Secret and for other ordinals?
 
$\bigcup \omega = \bigcup \sup \{n|n \in \Bbb{N}\} = ? = \omega$
I have no idea how to compute that without moving the sup outside the union
 
oh cool, I just learned inf and sup.
 
Yo
 
hey dami
 
5:59 AM
How's it going?
 
terribly.
 
Aw, why?
 
Teacher assigned this crazy problem set that I don't know what to do with.
4 questions.
Each one more difficult than the last.
 
Well, you just gotta keep thinking about it until you have divine inspiration or something like that
5
 
yeah maybe.
 
6:02 AM
Is this the math class that you're not allowed to get help on?
 
right
 
You just need to derive the answers from the questions.
 
thanks Jenna.
 
@Dodsy he's talking about sup of ordinals lol
@Secret remember how sup is defined?
 
6:21 AM
Hi cha
cha?
Ok fine I'll roll with it
 
Lel
 
balarka changed his picture
:o
 
sup S = least upper bound of S = smallest element that is larger than all elements in S
 
I have my answer written out in plain english
should I convert it to mathematic notation?
 
Fucking hell I'm doing topology on my algebra pset
@Balarka get hyped
 
6:35 AM
lol
what kind of topology
 
Nothing spectacular
The problem is to find an infinite group such that any proper subgroup is finite
 
Can you guys tell me if this makes sense.
 
And I'm thinking it's $\mathbb{Q}/\mathbb{Z}$
 
Ah. I am not telling you if that works or not :)
 
or am I just writing nonsense and I should go to bed.
 
6:36 AM
So, we know that if $H$ is an infinite subgroup, for any $n$, you can find some $h_n \in H$ such that $0 < h_n < \frac{1}{n}$
So you get $h_n \to 0$
 
:S
 
I'm thinking it's possible to show density and closure but I'm not sure
 
I'm probably writing nonsense and should go to bed.
dami, I'll email you?
 
And it honestly feels a bit like cheating even if it does work but hey
Alright @Dodsy
 
@Daminark What's stopping it from being dense?
 
6:38 AM
$\bigcup \omega = \bigcup \sup \{n|n \in \Bbb{N}\} = \{\gamma : \exists \beta \in \sup \{n|n \in \Bbb{N}\} : \gamma \in \beta\} = \bigcup_{i \in \Bbb{N}} i = \omega$
 
Nothing yet
 
OK. Think about it.
 
Oh wait no this is wrong
Anything like $k/2^n$
Well maybe that group is the right one
 
Therefore $\bigcup \alpha =\alpha -1$ if $\alpha$ is a successor and $\bigcup \alpha = \alpha$ if $\alpha$ is a limit
 
Right. There actually are infinite subgroups of Q/Z
 
6:41 AM
Frick
 
But you're close.
 
Wait actually the $k/2^n$ probably is correct
 
Mhm.
 
Yeah it definitely works
 
Can I tell you a way to visualize this?
 
6:43 AM
@Daminark also note I use $\subseteq$ even when the normal subset symbol would fit.
even if it is a proper subset.
 
Sure!
 
Think about Q/Z as the torsion subgroup (group of finite order points) of S^1. Consider the subgroup of p^n-order points for some non-fixed n.
That's an infinite subgroup of Q/Z
But these are itself examples of the kind you want
I think you wrote down it for p = 2
 
oh shit that's balarka talking.
@Daminark so am I talking nonsenese?
 
Okay I'm here, and @Balarka I'm not sure if I register that all too visually even now, though I guess thanks to dynamics I'm still inclined to think of the circle as the formal $\mathbb{R}/\mathbb{Z}$ instead of as a circle
 
I might go to bed..
 
6:51 AM
Actually I see where you're going
@Dodsy I think you're going about this the wrong way
 
Should I do it the change of base way?
 
Yeah
Work it out, it's a troll solution
 
@Daminark Who in the heaven's hell thinks of the circle as the symbol R/Z???
 
Like I tried it just now and straight up laughed
 
a circle is a circle is a circle
 
6:52 AM
Brin & Stuck Introduction to Dynamical Systems
Numerator and denominator are both square numbers
So they're both positive
 
Any dynamics on the circle should be visually seenable in a circle
 
It's probably seeable, just that I never saw it :P
Though at this point thinking about partitions of the circle I'm sorta getting what I think you're going for
Okay now I've got 9/13 problems
 
kewl
 
And it's due a week from Wednesday. I think I'm good now
 
nice. continue procrastinating :P
 
7:00 AM
(For a few problems I'm gonna need to find out if my prof goes by $D_n$ or $D_{2n}$ :P)
 
oh right i hate that convention
 
Which one?
 
D_n
 
Oh so you want to write $D_{2n}$?
 
Yeah, because that's how I'm used to it
 
7:02 AM
Best video on the internet now: youtube.com/watch?v=boE4idAwf_g
 
beautiful
 
I will say "skrrrrra" is much harder to Sougify
 
@BalarkaSen That is a beautiful pink colour.
 
aestheticc at it's finest
 
Is aestheticc a cool way of saying aesthetics?
 
7:07 AM
clearly you're not a vaporwave enthusiast
 
Yeah, I know nothing about what you and your gang likes on youtube.
 
"your gang"
Lol you're making Balarka sound like a roadman
Which he may very well be for all I know :P
 
@Daminark Yeah, you are part of his gang, I believe, lol.
 
@Dodsy How is school?
 
7:10 AM
Shitty.
 
gang is a very obtuse word. you mean the communist party
 
@Dodsy Math is hard.
 
maybe.
I think I have 1/4 questions done
but it's due on tuesday
gonna go get some shut eye.
maybe I can sleep now.
 
 
1 hour later…
8:15 AM
Allo @LeakyNun are you hair ? (We can continue our long ago conversion about finite fields chat.stackexchange.com/transcript/message/39981880#39981880 )
 
Did "hair" just become stuck as part of the maths chat culture now
2
 
Looks like they have order too, i.e for complex numbers $z =a+bi$, with $a,b \in \mathbb{Z}_7$, it looks like the minimal positive number for which for all $z^m \equiv 1 (mod 7)$ is $49$
 
Ughhhh, I don't want to use any types of choices
I need to think carefully what countable union of finite sets without choice means
 
BTW, is there any interesting intro to linear algebra than to say its used for solving systems of equations ?
 
you mean applications, or a book for introduction to linear algebra?
 
8:22 AM
Yeah, something like applications (for newbies)
(I know the book coding the matrix, good book and suitable for my requirement, but requires knowledge of linear algebra before you can do interesting stuff with it)
 
ah in that case I am not sure, I am not very good with books.
However, linear algebra has many applications, such as manipulation of graphics in gaming, data curating, data analysis and quantum mechanics
 
Yea yea everybody tells that :P
Tell me some questions which I can think about (eg lights off game), which uses linear algebra for solving, but the statement doesn't requires it
Any NT/combi question
 
What is NT/combi, some competition?
 
NT/combi is Naturally Trolling Competion Number theory/combinatorics
 
0
Q: Linear Algebra and Combinatorics

J.ExactorLet $F \subset 2^{[n]}$,where $[n] = \{1,...,n\}$. And $\forall A \in F :|A| = 1 \mod 2$. And $ \forall A,B \in F: A \neq B \to |A \cap B| = 0 \mod 2 $ Prove that $|F| \leq n$ I use linear algebra's method to prove the statement. Let $|F| > n$. For all elements $ A_i \in F$ we assign vector $v...

1
Q: Combinatorial Methods in Linear Algebra

Sandeep SilwalThere are a lot of examples of cases where linear algebra is used to solve problem in combinatorics. For example, the Friendship Theorem and Fisher's Inequality. In fact, there is a whole subject dedicated to this, namely Algebraic Combinatorics. My question is what are some examples of combin...

 
8:34 AM
there is a town with $32$ inhabitants that wish to form clubs, to prevent the formation of too many clubs the mayor decides that they must follow those $2$ rules:
1) every club must have an odd number of members
2) each pair of club must share an even number of members
How many clubs can be formed?
That's the first problem in Babai's "linear algebra methods in combinatorics"
 
Yup that looks good. Thanks @AlessandroCodenotti
 
Alessandro, we knew that an arbitrary union is defined as:
$$\bigcup \mathscr{A} = \{x : \exists B \in \mathscr{A} : x \in B\}$$
Now if $\mathscr{A}$ is a countable poset, it means there exists a bijection $f : \mathscr{A} \to \Bbb{N}$. However, since the bijection is not necessary order preserving, it seems that $\mathscr{A}$ is not necessary well ordered. Now in ZF-C, the axiom schema of replacement is the only thing that can be used to compute an arbitrary union but since the bijection is not necessary order preserving, how to run through the countable number of "or" statements inside th
A more narrow scenario is I want to see whether countable union of finite sets can be computed using only ZF
 
9:32 AM
@AlexKChen I'm not hair
@AlessandroCodenotti hi
@Secret "Now in ZF-C, the axiom schema of replacement is the only thing that can be used to compute an arbitrary union" have you ever heard of the axiom of union?
@AlexKChen I don't know how you came to 49, since the only $z$ with $z^{49} \equiv 1 \pmod 7$ is $1$
@Secret that definition is for real numbers. In ordinals we don't use that
I'm not used to @BalarkaSen's new icon
 
@SimplyBeautifulArt You were organizing a calculus seminar of sorts, right? How's that going?
 
@Daminark Any finitely generated subgroup is mono-generated, but there are infinite proper subgroups and they are infinitely-generated
@Secret correct
15
Q: Find an abelian infinite group such that every proper subgroup is finite

Henrique TyrrellI found this question in Arhangel'skii and Tkachenko's book Topological Groups and Related Structures. The first chapter of the book is devoted to algebraic preliminaries. The question actually reads: Give an example of an infinite abelian group all proper subgroups of which are finite. Wh...

 
Daminark figured it out already.
It was his homework problem.
Just take a Prufer p-group
There are also tons of other examples by taking direct limit of finite groups
 
9:47 AM
I see
 
@LeakyNun Axiom of union does not work for countable number of sets. It only works for pairs hence finite unions
 
@Secret not really.
Axiom of union is arbitrary
$\forall x \exists y \forall z [z \in y \iff \exists u [z \in u \land u \in x]]$
 
Ah right, the number of u s are not restricted
Sometimes I wish the axiom of union can be written as:
$\forall x \exists y [ \forall z \in y \iff \exists u : z \in u \in x]$
 
that's just poor notation
1. you need a statement after $\forall z \in y$, not $\iff$
2. we don't usually use the "$\forall z \in y$" notation in formal axioms
so even if you want to use it, it would be $\forall x \exists y [\forall z \in y \exists u \in x[z \in u]]$
the reason why we don't use that notation is because $\forall z \in y$ translates to $\forall z [z \in y \implies \cdots]$ while $\exists z \in y$ translates to $\exists z [z \in y \land \cdots]$
and that in axioms the quantifier quantifies over all objects
$\forall z \in y$ could be misused to become a second order quantifier
 
One personal reason why inequalities (and more generally, some propositions containing partial ordering) is confusing to me is because there are too many letters and nested levels to figure out whether they pair with existential quantifiers or (forgot name) quantifiers.

I see...
hmm... I guess I need to get used to them somehow...
 
9:57 AM
@Secret for example?
 
Take the axiom of union as example
$\forall x \exists y \forall z [z \in y \iff \exists u [z \in u \land u \in x]]$

I sometimes get tripped as after my eyes reached the line $u \in x$, I get confused because I somehow "forgot where" the line $z \in u$ is
 
alright
play with concrete examples then
 
however, if it is presented as $z \in u$ then $u \in x$ then I can follow because they mentally form an unbroken chain linked with the label $u$
 
let's say $x=\{\{a,b\},\{c,d\}\}$ where $a,b,c,d$ are urelements
try to work out what $y$ is and for each $z$ what $u$ is
 
if u = {a,b} then z = a or b
if u = {c,d} then z = c or d
y = {a,b,c,d}
So all instance of z has to exist in all instance of u
and y collects all the z
 
10:06 AM
so do you see how this works?
 
collect all the elements in all the sets in the collection to produce a new set?
 
@Secret yes, literally the definition of union: so do you see how this is arbitrary union?
 
yes, because the collection does not have a cardinality restriction
 
exactly
 
Hmm...
$\omega = \sup \{n|n\in\Bbb{N}\}$ Need to revise ordinal sup
Ok, so the supremum of a collection of ordinals is their union
 
10:19 AM
correct
 
ah, that justifies why for $\alpha^+$, $\bigcup \alpha^+ = \alpha$
because $\alpha^+$ contains all ordinals less than itself
 
right
 
So for a limit ordinal $\lambda$, $\bigcup \lambda = \lambda$
 
right
 
because the supremum/union of all ordinals less than a limit is the limit ordinal itself by definition
That took care of unions. However I still need to read up on turing machines and computability in order to address that construction of $\alpha \in (\omega_1^{CK},\omega_2^{CK})$ in mathworks. Meanwhile another question to consider is the following:
but before we begin, I need to do a small sanity check:
Is the naturals not a finite set because it does not biject with any sections $S_n$ of it?
Recall a section of the naturals is defined as $S_n = \{x \in \Bbb{N}: x \leq n\}$
 
10:26 AM
@Secret that depends on your definition of finite :P
but right
 
Well, one thing I am pondering about is how can we check that the set produced by the axiom of infinity (namely the naturals) is not finite without circular reasoning
btw a typo:
$S_n = \{x \in \Bbb{N}: x < n\}$
because e.g. 5 = {0,1,2,3,4}
 
@Secret how is it circular reasoning?
 
I think I am confusing myself, I need to think about how finiteness is defined in ZF-C
 
@Secret no bijection with any section of $\Bbb N$
 
Right, then $\Bbb{N}$ is infinite because we can formulate the following proof by contradiction:

Suppose $\Bbb{N}$ is finite, that is, it has some finite number $n$ of elements. Then it bijects with $S_n$. However since $n^+$ is also an element of $\Bbb{N}$ by definition but $n^+ \not \in S_n$, it follows that $\Bbb{N}$ has more than $n$ elements for any $n \in \Bbb{N}$. Therefore it either has an undetermined number of elements such that it bijects with all $S_n$ for $n \in \Bbb{N}$, or it does not biject with $S_n$ hence infinite by definition of infinite set
> Therefore it either has an undetermined number of elements such that it bijects with all $S_n$ for $n \in \Bbb{N}$
I wonder what ZF axiom will be inconsistent with this particular quote
 
10:44 AM
@Secret you can't use cardinality in this argument
 
I am even more confused when it says that the set produced by the axiom of infinity is a superset of the naturals
In axiomatic set theory and the branches of mathematics and philosophy that use it, the axiom of infinity is one of the axioms of Zermelo–Fraenkel set theory. It guarantees the existence of at least one infinite set, namely a set containing the natural numbers. It was first published by Ernst Zermelo as part of his set theory in 1908. == Formal statement == In the formal language of the Zermelo–Fraenkel axioms, the axiom reads: ∃ I ( ∅ ∈ I ∧ ∀ ...
 
right
 
If it is a superset of the naturals, then what is its identity?
 
you can't tell
the axiom does not identify the set
 
$I$ being a set that is closed under succession sounds allmost like some of the ordinals
 
10:51 AM
it doesn't have to be well-ordered
 
ah right, $x$ can form an indefinitely decreasing chain and never reaching the emptyset
 
decreasing in terms of $\ni$ or $\supseteq$?
 
e.g. $x$ can have a predecessor, which that can have a predecessor, and so on without necessary reaching the emptyset
 
@Secret you can't
you can reach a set without predecessor (e.g. $\omega+2 \mapsto \omega+1 \mapsto \omega$), but you can't do that infinitely
 
There are non well ordered sets without infinitely decreasing chains?
 
10:57 AM
there are none. it violates regularity
 
but you said $I$ does not have to be well ordered. I don't know how one can produce a set $I$ such that it is not well ordered since the requirement to be closed under succession will suggest some kind of well ordering?
 
do you know any set that is not well-ordered?
 
The reals, but that has an infinitely decreasing chain
 

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