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00:00
i think you need some extra axioms to govern exactly what C(x) is. like how do you pull a specific constant?
Mind clarifying that last sentence? the wording is throwing me off. :)
If you refer to this
\{F| \exists_{C \in V} (F(x) = \int_0^xf(t)dt + C(x)) \}
like given integral x = x^2/2+c, this works for all real c but is a unique expression of x^2/2
V is a set that serves as an parameter when constructing the operator. It can be anything. The set in the brackets is the set of solutions to the equation Tf where T is the operator being defined.
yeah i'm lost your question is very confusing
integrals and derivatives are intrinsinctly non information conserving which may be the problem
hold on one second
I technically have an example of one operator
but the definition is more of an algorithm of how to evaluate then actually defining it
00:06
huh
hello @Semiclassical
and agawa
there we go
that's the case where V is the set of piecewise constant functions.
and E is also the set of piecewise constant functions
interesting a general form would be really hard for that
are we sure its always well defined for example
the implied integral is always well defined
though whether that has any relation to piecewise constant functions being a set of closed-algebraic functions is unknown.
what are the minimum requirements on V and E so that it is well defined, the initial integral but the variance may not be, i'm thinking really not nice functions
nothing that I know of really
gotta go for a sec
00:16
uncountable discontinuities on V or E would be hard for example
well im stuck
new topic wduk ask a question
im stuck too and I'm probably the only person in the world who cares about my problem
shai i already asked it :P
51 mins ago, by WDUK
Could some one help explain how the solution set is worked out from the graph of the inequality x^2 + x - 2 < 0. I got (-inf,-2] U [1, inf). But it seems it is actually (-2,1) i don't understand why
00:19
the porabala is bigger then the line eventually
isn't that going to be the case for all parabolas eventually?
x*x>x-2 for x>1
yeah
thats why your inequality is bounded below
you've lost me here
if it was x^2+x-2 >0 we would have an infinite solution becuase eventually the porabola is bigger
so its (-2,1) because beyond those values y > 0 which would not be correct
00:22
x^2+(mx+b)<0 is at most a bounded range, and yeah
@shaihorowitz well, I think V can be anything, because it's just like the direction point form of a line. i.e: L = p + [v]. There's nothing really restricting what can be added. As long as a function is addable and multiplicative it fits in just fine.
and as far as I know, there is no function R to R that cannot be multiplied by a constant to make a new function. That would imply the function is undefined.
As for E, I suspect that large swaths of sets will just result in all possible functions falling into E.
because if x^2 is in E
then the abnormal integral will treat sqrt(x^2) as a constant
and depending on your algebra
we now have x itself treated as constant
and that will just result in the operator being the composition Tf = x*f.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Volterra%27s_function might be weird under multiplication
infinititly periodic discontinuities are a pain
@shaihorowitz I meant V only fails if for $f \in V$ c*f(x) is undefined.
where c is a real number
but if c*f(x) is undefined, then either c is undefined or f is undefined
either that or multiplication had a stroke.
00:28
not necisairily
referring to complex numbers?
no more to uncomputable real numbers
uncomputable isn't the same as the function being undefined.
or is it?
it isnt but it can be
fair enough
however, now that I reread my set definition
we merely need every element in V to be addable to some other function
of course, that function will be a particular antiderivative (at least until E is somehow worked into place)
so we can say it is continuous
so V merely needs be able to be added to a continuous function
(then again, if F is a solution then F + C(x) is a solution and F + 2*C(x))
so I guess my definition doesn't lack linear combinations of all elements in V
since technically any solution can be repeatedly varied to produce a total variance that is the linear combination of elements in V
00:34
i didnt read your full question to thourouly it was long but it seems like it
which means V is the set of some functions and all their linear combinations
granted, that is what I would expect anyways
it's just that it appears V forces itself to be certain sets
so in that manner V has restrictions
but it's the restriction that V contains every linear combination of it's elements
so you were right
there is a restriction
but it's subtle
a one element V must contain every real multiple of that element as well
or complex multiple if we are in complex integrals
ugh
anyway
i gotta go
we can talk more later
have a good night
00:48
@shaihorowitz oh yeah, the reason why this question is so important is because it gives me a way to formalize redefining the integral, which is the basis of implied calculus which has many ways of simplifying and solving various differential equations.
for instance, the piecewise constant one I linked not only makes solving linear homogenous differential equations with piecewise constant functions possible in the context of an implied differential equation (using the operators)
but it is also possible to determine the variance such that the equation is continuous
picking that particular solution yields the solution to the actual differential equation
needless to say, there are probably other implied integral operators that have the same affect
anyway
just a thought i had real quick that motivated me to hop on
good night
01:41
can finite fields not be ordered because there would inevitable comes something like: a<b<c<a?
02:09
Anybody here do math animations? I want to animated a 3D polytope. It's relatively simple, but I'd like to have it be somewhat nice - decent shading, etc.
Just looking for newb tools suggestings.
hey @MikeMiller I would like to check with you something really quick.
Are you here ?
Let $V \rightarrow X$ be vector bundle of rank r with sections $\{\sigma_1,...,\sigma_r\}$ that generate each fiber. Prove V is isomorphic to trivial bundle of rank r.
so since each $\sigma_1,...,\sigma_r$ generate each fiber we have for each $v \in V$ it is of the form $\Sigma_i \alpha_i \sigma_i(p)$ where $p \in X$ and $\alpha_i \in \mathbb{R}$
consider the $f : X \times \mathbb{R}^r \rightarrow V$ given by $(p,\Sigma_i \alpha_i e_i) \mapsto \Sigma_i \alpha_i \sigma_i(p)$ then this works right ?
if a>b, then |a-b|=a-b right? (just to be sure!)
(also considering complex for example)
02:50
@saturatedexpo If you consider complex numbers there is no such thing as ordering.
It is true in the case of $\mathbb{R}$
@Adeek so odering implies that the above holds?
no I mean what does it mean that a + bi
what does it mean a + bi > c + di it doesn't have a meaning.
$|x| = x iff x \geq 0$ and $|x| = -x iff x < 0$ from this definition you can prove when $|a - b| = a - b$.
the problem is i dont work with C or R, but with F, just an ordered field without specifications^^
@Adeek ok^^
@arctictern do you know some differential geometry ?
I want to discuss a solution to a problem with you.
03:08
$$|x-z|\leq |x|+|-z|$$
$$|x-z|\leq x+z$$
$$(x-z)^2\leq(x+z)^2$$ Is here the fail?
$$x^2-2xz+z^2\leq x^2+2xz+z^2$$
$$x^2\leq x^2+4xz$$ Which only is true if 4xz is positive(or 0)
ah well, nevermind, squaring on both sides brings cases with it
03:29
@ThomasAndrews I cannot direct you to a tool as the only tool I know of is a project for my computer graphics class, but what do you mean by a polytope?
is it a multivariate function in some coordinate system?
@WDUK an obvious sanity check on your result is to plug in a particular value. simplest one is x=0, and this gives x^2+x-2=-2 which satisfies the inequality. so the interval you suggested isn't right.
more algebraically, you can rewrite the inequality to $(x-1)(x+2)<0$. for that to be true, exactly one of the terms has to be negative.
so you either need $x+2<0<x-1\implies 1<x<-2$---which is not consistent, so we reject it---or $x-1<0<x+2\implies -2<x<1$, which is the solution.
03:46
So i'm reading A-M commutative algebra
ive read the first chapter. the concepts in the core material don't require any thing more than what i already have, but to solve the exercises, i need other tools which i havent learned
is it ok if i read it?
04:39
can someone check this? if $x<y<z$ it follows that $x-y<0<z-y$ To show: $$0\leq |x-y|+|y-z|-|x-z|$$
$$0\leq -x+z-y-|x-z|$$
$$0\leq z-x-|x-z|$$
$$|x-z|\leq z-x$$
$$z-x\leq z-x$$
im unsure about the step to the last line
tried with examples but :/
my reasoning is: z>x, therefore the |x-z|=z-x
 
1 hour later…
05:55
@Adeek Yes
@meow-mix You don't need to learn anything more than what's already in there to solve any of the exercises.
The reason why the exercises are complicated is that the text in A-M is terse. But I can assure you that everything you want is in there.
hi what does this sentence mean "with no less than ten multiple choice questions
and no less than five true-or-false questions)".... the "No less than" is annoying.
not less than means greater than or equal to
ty
in other words 10,11,12....
if you know what "less than" means then you should know what "not less than" means, really
ahhhh
I didnt think of the "no" as the "not"
thanks!
06:01
Have you heard the phrase "no more, no less" before?
If I ask how much less x is than 10, and if x is not less than 10 then it makes sense to say it is "no less" than 10.
I am 99% certain that my results are correct and that I have been able to answer my own question'
however, is there any way that I can improve upon the wording of this question or make it easier to understand for those who aren't aware of the concepts I am describing: math.stackexchange.com/questions/2008976/…
thank you
06:47
how tp phrase that?
Now let x be -x?
$x\to -x$ or how?
@saturatedexpo Who are you talking to?
to someone who answers :D
good morning :)
you never said a question.
06:49
how to phrase that x should now be -x
$x\to -x$?
that isn't even logical
x cannot be equal to -x
unless it is 0
i dont say it should equal
it should just swap the sign
that doesn't even make sense
what are you doing this for?
I have proven a statement $y^2>0$
and i want to exchange y with -y is that so hard to get?
to extend my prove ;)
you cannot "interchange" anything
and there is no notation for such
you can only replace two things that are equal
06:52
|y|>0
that holds also for -y as |y|=|-y|
ok...?
but that doesn't mean -y can arbitrarily replace y
-y doesn't replace y
$$|x-y| \ge \bigl||x|-|y|\bigr|$$
should look this
it is abs(-y) that replaces abs(y)
$$|x+y| \ge \bigl||x|-|y|\bigr|$$
and this is totally fine
i just dont know how you phrase "now plug in -y for y"
ummm....
you're wording yourself just fine
i thought you wanted mathematical notation for plugging values in
like set theory or something
your english sounds fine.
06:54
well that would be nice but i guessed that this doesnt exist
not really, no.
if you abstract away things enough you might be able to
but at that point you'd probably so far above the level of math you are doing that it would be kind of pointless
notation is to aid a reader in understanding stuff and to rigorously prove things
there's a point when it becomes absurd to have notation for something
at that point, we choose to just use words
well an exact phrase was just missing for me^^
after all, we are not computers.
i thought there where some more elegant way to say that
a good phrase would be
"now plug in -y for y"
06:56
hehe
it sounds fine to me
usually if words aren't growing into several paragraphs or involving undefined concepts, you're fine.
now if you were writing an advanced set theory textbook involving von neumann ordinals and how to define the notion of equation... I'd expect you to write an essay.
i try to bve prepared for my bachelors thesis, so i try to get used to "nice" writing
but that would be several layers of abstraction below where you are, so that would be an issue of explaining all the layers and how they interact to make math work not the actual reasoning behind the solution.
(even tho im far away from my bachelor)
that when im finally there i can fully focus on the actual stuff rather then formulations
@saturatedexpo in my experience, the best way to figure out how to phrase things is the following
pick a subject you like in mathematics
now do something entirely abstract regarding it
explore a new equation, try to find a new identity, apply polynomial equations to dog inputs.
it doesn't really matter
then just write as much as you can come up with to write
then, just ask people how it looks
07:01
starred that^^
if you do it for the sake of practice and it is mathematically worthwhile or interesting, you might actually find something you wish to explore down the road.
I'll be frank
I was trying to solve floor function integrals about 2 years ago as what could be classified as recreational math
and at some point i had a few ideas
and now i am still writing a 10,000+ word paper
most of it is fluff junk
but there are some interesting bits that I am slowly expanding
(im a slow writer)
anyway, I hope that helps.
i feel yes
well the problem for me is
this whole "axiomatic" thinking that you cant use what you dont have proven
totally different from school approach
well you're in graduate level school I presume?
or undergraduate?
07:05
undergraduate
what thing are you referring to? Geometry?
idk about all things
I know of geometric axioms
and the way I like to think of them is two-fold
I visit 2 courses. Linear algebra and analysis
and we got to prove every shit
that + is commutative adn so on
for the real + that might be easy
well linear algebra requires you to prove everything because it is so simple
that's all
analysis I have no clue. I supposedly do analysis type things, but I have never taken a course in it.
linear algebra doesn't have axioms though
analysis is more the series stuff
algebra more the "lets do this" stuff
mostly it's the invertible matrix theorem having all of its dozens of equivalent statements.
07:08
of course linear algebra has axioms
and that they all boil down to determinant
for example, the axioms defining a vector space
but i read that determinants are obsolete is there something true in that?
@prodprod well, in my class we never learned them. We just learned what a matrix and vector are and all the algebraic identities and terms. perhaps other places go deeper into things. there was a chapter 4 supposedly defining vector spaces very deeply that we blatantly skipped because "it is too difficult"
@saturatedexpo where did you read that? Heck no.
the determinant is just not used by itself through brute force
07:10
it's combined with row reduction all the time in computers
i am not wise enough to judge that
there are ways to avoid using the determinant in elementary linear algebra, sure
how do you think computers do algebra?
whether it is wise is another question
1996 was before matlab became famous if memory serves right
I am 65% sure that matlab uses determinants all the time.
it's the friendliest thing for computers to use
07:12
65% seems pretty random haha
plus, in differential equations
there is a thing called the Wronskian
which determines if a set of solutions are linearly independent.
yeah but the one bit i understood just by solving myself some things is: determinants are pretty tedious work
it's a really complicated determinant that gives out a function
oh well yes
you know of reduced row methods?
you'll learn later on that they can be used to simplify the determinant
for instance, taking one row and adding it to another row doesn't change the result of the determinant
so you can actually get it down to echelon form
then if you expand along a column of all zeroes
I'm sure you catch my drift.
07:14
so det=0?
it will be then easy to see if it is
I meant a row of all zeroes except for the element in the row you are using to perform the row reduction
07:15
are
so then you can just pull one number out and calculate a smaller determinant
and so on
remember how you solve linear systems using the augmented matrix?
and you added one row to another to cancel out terms?
mmh, lets just say, i dont want to use matrices in my freetime xd
matrices are everywhere
linear algebra is the most well understood subject
and the most well used
in fact, my computer science professor once said that mathematics is like biology but where everything is either an elephant or not an elephant.
of course, in the analogy elephants are linear functions.
that quote is just nice
it puts a big emphasis on things
the reason why linear is so important is because two linear operations always commute.
err...
invertible ones i mean.
don't start commuting matrix multiplication
anyway
i gotta go
07:19
cu :)
goodnight
:)
you too!
08:02
is there any interesting results using ordinals?
08:27
how does this recursive make any sense:
$$x_0:=1$$$$x^{n+1}:=x\cdot x^n$$?
and thats exactly like its written
nevermind
exponents are getting introduced...
@DHMO hi
@saturatedexpo hi ;)
09:01
If you want to get interesting results about well ordered sets you usually need to go through ordinals
Like for every pair of well ordered sets $A$ and $B$ either they are isomorphic, or $A$ is isomorphic to an initial segment of $B$, or $B$ is isomorphic to an initial segment of $A$
@DHMO
Hi @Alessandro
Hi @Balarka
Find $\sum _{n=1}^{\infty }\left(\cfrac{\left(2^n\left(\log\left(2\right)\right)^n\right)}{n!}\right)\:$
answer is 3
But how to proceed it?
They are also generally useful constructions, for example (assuming AC) you can define the cardinality of $X$ as the least ordinal $\lambda$ in bijection with $X$ and it immediately follows that given $X$ and $Y$ sets either $|X|=|Y|$, $|X|<|Y|$ or $|X|>|Y|$
Ah, I almost forgot, transfinite induction is prettt useful
@TheGreatDuck from what I've learnt in my numerical analysis course determinants are computationally a disaster to calculate so they're avoided if possible (but we didn't talk about algorithms to compute them so I don't know how bad the situation actually is)
09:26
1
Q: Find $\sum _{n=1}^{\infty }\left(\cfrac{\left(2^n\left(\log\left(2\right)\right)^n\right)}{n!}\right)\:$

Mithlesh Upadhyay Find $\sum _{n=1}^{\infty }\left(\cfrac{\left(2^n\left(\log\left(2\right)\right)^n\right)}{n!}\right)\:$ Answer is $3$, by the ratio test the series converges. I googled it, but stuck for procedure. Can you explain it, please?

 
1 hour later…
10:28
It astonishes me how the symbol for cyclotomic polynomials is a line cutting (tom-) through a circle (cyclo-).
@Alessandro that is interesting
@Ramanujan hi
@saturatedexpo i was talking about ordinals so i thought you are also talking about ordinals lol
@Alessandro They are not actually that bad as long as you have exact values. Unfortunately, the algorithms that do it fast tend to propagate errors quite badly as far as I understand
@Tobias interesting, I think I'll look into it. I know that if you go through the $LU$ factorization you can compute the determinant in $O(n^3)$ (but that kind of pointless if you need it to decide whether a linear system has solutions), but I don't know other approaches
@Alessandro think that is about the fastest it can be done (but that is still reasonable)
Compare that to how hard it is to calculate other permanents
the naive approach is something stupidly big like $O(n!)$ if I remember correctly?
yeah, by applying just the definition in terms of permutations
10:56
How do you map 3-sphere to 2-sphere?
11:26
@DHMO Look up Hopf map.
By map, I am of course assuming in a homotopically nontrivial way. Otherwise you can just send the whole 3-sphere to a point in the 2-sphere, which is boring.
12:04
@BalarkaSen thanks, although at least half of the words i don't understand
@DHMO Well, it's not very simple to describe.
The thing is that you decompose $S^3$ into torii, as follows: decompose $\Bbb R^3$ into torii of increasing radius, with the unit circle on the $xy$-plane as the center circle of all the torii. These will "limit" to the "circle at infinity", aka the $z$-axis.
The map $S^3 \to S^2$ sends each of these torii to a latitude in $S^2$.
what is the significance of this map?
@DHMO how do you prove that a^2+b^2+c^2=3abc when a+b+c=0? I know 1 method of proving it through matrices but I want to know if there are other methods too?
Do you know what a homotopy is?
@BalarkaSen I think so
12:09
Like by applying (a+b+c)^3 or like that
@DHMO This map $S^3 \to S^2$ is not homotopic to the constant map.
@Ramanujan when $a=1$, $b=1$, $c=-2$, the identity is false
@BalarkaSen what is homotopic and what is the constant map?
you probably meant a^3+b^3+c^3=3abc though
There is no homotopy between that map and the map $S^3 \to S^2$ sending all of $S^3$ to a specific point of $S^2$.
Is that better?
@DHMO my sir used that step in one problem,so that identity is wrong or iam missing something?
@BalarkaSen maybe
@Ramanujan Hint: $(a+b+c)^3 \equiv a^3+b^3+c^3+3(a+b+c)(ab+bc+ca)-3abc$
2 mins ago, by DHMO
you probably meant a^3+b^3+c^3=3abc though
12:15
Describing (or rather, counting) maps $S^m \to S^n$ which are not homotopic to the constant map (which can indeed only exist if $m \geq n$) is a big open problem in algebraic topology. Hopf map is remarkable because it gives the simplest such example.
@DHMO oh,yeah,
12:38
Oh night, I'm learning calculus in saturday night
@Hey-men-whatsup which topic?
i'm confusing between f'(x)= an^(a-1) with lim h->0 = f(x+h)-f(x)/ h
you know??
Use matjax
@Hey-men-whatsup it looks it's your start at calculus
i mean differential and derivative
yeap, i'm beginner
Then i can help you
(lim h->0 = f(x+h)-f(x)/ h) this is the definition of limits
12:54
ok, ...
And f'(x)=an^(a-1) is the standard result for d/dn( n^a)
what's the difference between using that, compare to some fixed differential methods like f(x)=an^c ==> f'(x)= can^(c-1)
Do their result will be same if give the domain/input to both of those expression, pressumably coming from the same function ?
@Hey-men-whatsup is that function correct?
@Hey-men-whatsup your function is in x but there is no x in your function so dy/dx=0
oh sorry
should be f(x)= ax^n so f'(x)= anx^n-1
12:59
hey man, thank you
Your welcome
so differential is just another method of derivate (in limited context) right??

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