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00:00
@anon But there are subtleties when one wants to "evaluate" sometimes, right?
you mean the fact that evaluating X commutes with the two dets?
Does it?
yes
@anon Oh. IIRC you once told me evaluating behaves badly sometimes.
well, there are situations where it does
00:02
@anon Such as?
for example power series composition does not commute with power series evaluation in local fields
@anon What are "local" fields?
that is, $(f\circ g)|_{a}=f|_{g(a)}$ can be false with power series $f,g$
@anon Ah. Why?
for me, local number fields are extensions of p-adic fields
they are more general than that though
00:04
@anon OK. And $p$-adic fields are?
a field of $p$-adic numbers for some $p$
Hi guys, I have a small query about power sets in naive set theory. I've learnt that if a set has $P$ number of elements, then the number of subsets the set has is $2^P$ . Does that number include the set itself?
@Nick $A\subseteq A$, always.
@PedroTamaroff the reason is very subtle: power series compositions implicitly regroup terms in ways that can break apart and reassemble the partial sum valuations. For example, $$1+(1+1)+(1+1+1+1)+\cdots=1+2+4+\cdots=\frac{1}{1-2}=-1$$ converges in the $2$-adics but of course $1+1+1+\cdots$ does not.
Thus $A\in \wp(A)$.
@anon Ah, I thought convergence was going to pop up.
user87637
00:08
@pedro I have decided to change back to my original nine holy books for the reading list.
@anon I don't really know about $p$-adics! How do you define a $p$-adic field?
@PedroTamaroff: That's a weird symbol for power sets. I've never seen that before. But from what your saying, the number of proper subsets of a set is $2^P - 1$ ?
note that infinite series in local fields are impervious to rearrangement: all infinite series are unconditional in their convergence or divergence. but both the archimedean and non-archimedean worlds are susceptible to regrouping. power series compositions are not enough to break sums though in the archimedean world.
user87637
@Nick You misspelled weird.
@anon Aha.
00:09
@PedroTamaroff the field of p-adic numbers is the fraction field of the ring of p-adic integers. it can be thought of as the set of formal infinite sums $a_{-r}p^{-r}+\cdots+a_{-1}p^{-1}+a_0+a_1p+\cdots$ with the obvious notion of addition and subtraction
@anon Ah. Cool.
user87637
Wow, anon knows everything, lol.
@JasperLoy I know everything I know. =D
user87637
@PedroTamaroff Have you found a girlfriend?
@anon And $p$-adic integers go forth only? As in $a_0+a_1p+\cdots+$?
00:11
@Jasper: Yeah, I always misspell wierd. I'm wierd that way. How Fe-ionic :D
@PedroTamaroff yes, those are the p-adic integers
@JasperLoy Nope.
user87637
@Nick Oh, how academic your pun is.
@Pedro: I'm assuming the set itself is not a proper subset of the set. That is a correct assumption. Am I right?
@Nick It is mere convention. Or better put, it is just nomenclature.
I have to go now.
Byes.
00:15
Bye @Pedro. :D thanks for the assistance.
@JasperLoy: :p and how blue your avatar is.
01:15
omg I think I finally found an answer to my question
now if only I could collect my own bounty
01:39
@PedroTamaroff Hey man, can u help me on this? math.stackexchange.com/questions/510591/…. Most of the people there are mad at me lol.
@Anthony: There are rules against that :)
@TedShifrin: and rightly so, I was kidding :P
I know, I know :)
Congrats on your success.
leo
leo
@PedroTamaroff claro. Eso es. Gracias :-)
02:17
@TedShifrin @leo SUP?
@mespebjidom You have good answers already.
@anon Hey.
yo
I am stuck at something. =/
Dunno if it is true though.
If $V$ is a vector space and $S\subseteq V^\ast$, define the "preannihilator" of $S$ to be $${}^\circ S=\bigcap_{\varphi\in S}\ker \varphi$$

Thus, if $T\in V$; ${}^\circ (T^\circ)=T$.
Now, suppose $V,W$ are fin. dim. $K$-vector spaces and $f:V^\ast \to W$ is a linear transformation.
but isn't the preann a subspace?
a space can't equal a vector
02:29
@anon How would it equal a vector?
Maybe both $T\subseteq V$ and the preannihilator of $T^{\circ}=(T)$ though.
@anon Sorry, typo.
I mean $T\subseteq V$.
you need $T$ a subspace
Yes.
Well, $T^\circ$ is always a sub. even if $T$ isn't.
yes
02:30
OK, back to business.
Let $B_1,B_2$ be bases of $V,W$ resp, so that we have a matrix $$|f|_{B_1^\ast B_2}$$ representing $f$.
Now, define the linear transformation $\hat f:W^\ast \to V$ by the matrix $$|\hat f|_{B_2^\ast B_1}=|f|_{B_1^\ast B_2}^t$$
Is it true that ${}^\circ(\ker f)={\rm im }\;\hat f$?
@TedShifrin You there?
yes
@anon How can one prove it? (I actually was told it was true, I failed to prove it without drowning in a sea of coefficients and bases)
wlog set $V=K^n$ and $W=K^m$ so $f$ is explicitly some matrix with $K$-entries
@anon LULZ.
LULZ LULZ LULZ.
Thanks.
mmhmm
02:41
I will try to prove it after doing this Analisis II exercise.
@anon For the sake of completeness, this came up in the following problem.
Consider the basis $B=\{(0,0,0,1),(0,0,1,1),(0,1,1,1),(1,1,1,1)\}$ of $\Bbb R^4$.
Consider the subspace $\langle (-3,-1,1,k),(-1,2,0,1)\rangle$.
k?
@anon That is a parameter.
@Pedro: No.
does it vary within the given subspace or is this a parametrized family of subspaces?
Let $f:(\Bbb R^4)^\ast\to\Bbb R$ be given by $$|f|_{B^\ast E}=\begin{pmatrix}3&1&4&-2\\3&3&6&4\\-3&2&-5&3\end{pmatrix}$$
@anon OK, that is a fixed $k\in \Bbb R$.
Write $S_k=$ "blah" if you want.
The problem is to find $k$ such that $S^{\circ}\oplus \ker f=(\Bbb R^4)^{\ast}$
By taking the preann this amounts to $S\oplus {}^\circ(\ker f)=\Bbb R^4$.
02:46
right
Well, what I said above can (and should) be used to move ahead.
My assis. prof. told me to use it.
Quite nice.
@TedShifrin
Qué? @Pedro
@TedShifrin I am supposed to find the surface area of a portion of an ellipse.
But apparently the computation is a pain in the arse.
aren't elliptic integrals transcendental?
In a tilted plane?
02:52
@TedShifrin ?
@AnthonyCarapetis Yes, that.
Area, not arclength @Anthony
The surface area of $4x^2+y^2+9z^2=1$ over the positive octant.
I don't want you to tell me how to do it, just if it can be done.
Oh, ellipsoid.
@TedShifrin Yeah, potato, pohtato.
=D
depends what "can be done" means I think
02:53
Sure, it can be done.
@TedShifrin OK. I must use the area form, right?
Yeah, but by what parametrization do you want to pull back?
@TedShifrin Maybe I have to think about it.
Close ...
Maybe it does turn out yucky. I've never done it.
@TedShifrin Well, one has to fix the coords of the sphere a little, that's it, yes?
02:56
How do you parametrize an ellipse in the plane? polar?
Yes.
@TedShifrin Well, yes, if $\dfrac{x^2}{a^2}+\dfrac{y^2}{b^2}=1$ then $x=a\cos \theta$ and $y=b\sin\theta$.
Well, not really $\theta$, but yess.
@TedShifrin "not really $\theta$"?
Nope. It's a different angle.
the angle of (a cos t, b sin t) in polar coordinates is not actually "t"
02:59
See, @anon agrees w/me.
the angle of $(a\cos t,b\sin t)$ is in fact $\tan^{-1}(\frac{b}{a}\tan t)$
@TedShifrin (:
You can see it pictorially very nicely.
@TedShifrin You're telling me that $(a\cos t,b\sin t)$ with $0\leqslant t\leqslant 2\pi$ doesn't parametrize the ellipse?
it does
Well, yes.
03:00
No, I'm not.
Why should we care about that angle?
who says we do?
It is just a parameter.
Dunno. Ted?
one can be pedantic without caring!
@AnthonyCarapetis Agh!
03:01
Just saying it's no longer the polar coord $\theta$.
when you write $\theta$ after he mentions polar coordinates, it's to be assumed $\theta$ is the polar angle
but you're talking about a generic parameter rather than the polar angle specifically
Yes.
OK, nevermind.
Same thing with ellipsoidal coords.
So I can parametrize the ellipsoid by $$x(s,t)=\frac 1 2\cos s\sin t\\ y(s,t)=\sin s\sin t\\z(s,t)=\frac 1 3 \cos t$$
03:04
Now I should find the area form.
Maybe this does turn elliptic, in fact ...
Why did your prof assign it, I wonder ..?
@TedShifrin It is in a midterm!
Oh, then no more conversation!
so, we're taking your midterm? :)
Hey @TedShifrin
03:06
@TedShifrin Duh, we don't have "takehome" midterms.
It is an old one.
How dare you guys think like that of me!
I can only answer this guy's question here in the case of his morphism being an open immersion
@PedroTamaroff I'd never think of you like that.
Because I look at past exams too and ask questions about them.
@user38268 Go back to your fancy math dominion, demon!
@PedroTamaroff what do you mean?
03:07
@user38268 ;)
@user38268 I'm just teasing.
Hi @user ... Past my bedtime, so I'm disappearing :)
@Pedro: you take us too seriously! But you did mislead!
I'm constantly amazed by the stuff you study.
@PedroTamaroff I do the stuff I'm doing now not to impress people but because I'm interested. If I were alone on a desert island I'd still be doing it.
@PedroTamaroff huh?
@user38268 I know. Keep it up!
I never distribute past exams ... I'm mean!
03:08
@TedShifrin :D
@TedShifrin You're pure evil.
"A necessary evil."
@PedroTamaroff What is there to be impressed about?
@TedShifrin: teachers don't usually do it; students do it! :D
@user38268 You use a musical symbol in your math, for crying out loud.
(though some teachers do share old exams)
03:09
@PedroTamaroff huh? That's just the induced map on sheaves
folks, I give you: the most dumb-feigning can't-take-a-compliment mathematician around
@anon huh?
@anon HEHEHEHEHE.
@PedroTamaroff: there's something called the musical isomorphism, iirc
mmhmm
03:10
Doth he really feign?
@anon what's going on?
@Pedro: Just biject it to an associative field whose elements are compact 7-chains
@FernandoMartin you mean for the generalized gradient?
for an arbitrary smooth manifold?
@TedShifrin he doth protest too much
Night, all!
03:11
@anon I concur.
@user38268: I have no idea what that means, just read about it some day and I was amused that they used flats and sharps for notation
Night Ted
@FernandoMartin we did that in differential geoemtry last semester
Symplectic people are musical :)
@anon I don' get what you mean
03:11
@anon The WLOG part of your argument is "up to iso, it's all the darn same thing."
pretty much
@user38268 You're studying quite high math and you cannot take a compliment.
@PedroTamaroff I tell you man there's no point knowing what a quasi-coherent sheaf is if you don't really know the basics. Sometimes I say that to myself
I am impressed by the math you're studying. You made a big final assignment on "Weyl Schur Duality" (which I have no idea what is) that even Mariano complimented!
@user38268 What do you mean?
@PedroTamaroff holy shit WTF?????
I just sent it to email to Mariano and he told you about it???
03:14
@user38268 No, it was here.
what did Mariano say?
Something like "That's very nice, Ben!".
schur's name goes before weyl's ...
@PedroTamaroff If you want to learn some representation theory I can send it to you :D
@user38268 I have it, dude. You shared it, it seems.
03:15
ah ok.
Oh, well. Back to my analysis stuff.
do you really mean anal?
@user38268 ¬¬
don't be anal
2
or do you mean banal?
03:17
@anon Indeed.
"They used to call me anal girl. I was very neat and organized."
03:37
@anon I have a doubt. When doing the proof with $V=K^n,W=K^m$; I can just pick the canonical bases, right?
yes
@anon Can I say something analogous for $\ker \hat f$ and ${\rm im}\; f$?
I have a problem for you. $A$ is a projection $\iff 2A-I$ is idempotent.
the kernel of a matrix (applied from the left) is the set of vectors orthogonal to each row vector
@anon Right.
@anon Would the proof be too tortuous if one stuck to general vector spaces?
meh
it's the same thing
03:45
OK. Then I'll try again in "more generality".
03:59
So, in the general case, if $B_2=\{w_1,\ldots,w_s\}$, $B_2^{\ast}=\{\psi_1,\ldots,\psi_s\}$ are the bases of $W,W^\ast$ and $B_1=\{v_1,\ldots,v_n\};B_1^\ast=\{\varphi_1,\ldots,\varphi_n\}$ are bases of $V,V^\ast$ then $$(|\hat f|_{B_2^\ast B_1})_{ij}=\psi_if(\varphi_j)$$
04:17
@anon Cannot I prove $\ker f=({\rm im}\; \hat f)^\circ$ instead?
whatevs you want
@anon OK. I kinda proved something similar already.
With the transpose.
So I can also prove $({\rm im}\; f)^\circ =\ker \hat f$, aye?
@anon Sorry for bothering, I just realized how obvious this is.
MJD
MJD
04:43
Looking for votes to undelete math.stackexchange.com/questions/511525/…
MJD
MJD
The OP autodeleted it after it received an answer.
There's nothing wrong with it.
Oh, what a douche.
MJD
MJD
I agree.
05:03
Guys, would it be wrong to post a question asking about proofs for $sin^2 (x) + cos^2 (x) = 1$ or is that just stupid. (I could make it a community wiki) How does it sound?
@Nick Nah, what definition do you have of those?
It depends on your defs.
05:17
@PedroTamaroff: We started with Dirichlet series today at Number Theory
@FernandoMartin CAWL, BRAW. And?
Haha, that's it. I thought you were reading about that in Landau's book, right?
Well, only the $\Bbb Z/(n)$ case.
What do you mean?
@FernandoMartin Oh, you're dealing with $L$-series, then?
IIRC, Dirichlet series are of the form $\sum f(n)n^{-s}$ for some arithmetic function $f$, right?
05:23
Hmm, the way we defined them today was $\sum a_n n^{-s}$ for an arbitrary sequence $a_n$
@FernandoMartin Ah, OK. That.
$L$-series are a special case where $a_n$ is some Dirichlet character modulo $k$.
So one writes $L(\chi,s)=\sum \frac{\chi(n)}{n^s}$
Heh, Fava can write down $\xi$ perfectly.
I boil with envy.
Haha, yes. I know no one else that can.
Do you have courses tomorrow?
05:29
Yup, number theory and topology.
There's no topology class though, since it's the last one before the exam
@FernandoMartin Ooooh, spooky. What is the exam about?
Uhh, the first part of the course is general/point-set topology
@FernandoMartin Ah, so I guess it is nothing too complicated?
No (I hope so)
So far everything's been smooth
The second part of the course is about algebraic topology
That's where the fun starts I guess
Yes. Heh!
 
2 hours later…
@ShuklaSannidhya that page seems to explain quite nicely why
$\tan(A)=-tan(\frac{\pi}{2} - 2A)$
Can I right that like this ^ ?
@TobiasKildetoft ?
where did you get that?
it is clearly not correct
$\cot(2A) = \tan(\frac{\pi}{2} - 2A)$
so...
$\tan(A) + \cot(2A) = 0$ is the given equation.
I am required to solve it for A.
well, assuming WA is not wrong (which is not that common after all), there is no solution
07:54
What about 0?
@Nick $\cot(0)$ is ND.
I know the whole division by zero thing is kinda undefined but can't A be zero?
Oh wait, I see the graph. Not even close
@Tobias: I was asking Peter this earlier but I'd like to ask you as well. Would it be ok to start a community wiki for the proofs of trigonometric identities or is that sort of question frowned upon?
@Nick I don't really see how such a thread would be useful
@TobiasKildetoft: Kind of like the Pythagoras theorem certain trig identities have different ways of being proved. A sort of thread to capture all that variety would be nice to see.
What's wrong with this-
$\tan(A) + \cot(2A) = 0$
$\implies \tan(A) = - \cot(2a)$
$\implies \tan(A) = - \tan(\frac{\pi}{2} - 2A)$
$\implies \tan(A) = \tan(2A - \frac{\pi}{2})$
$\implies A = n \pi + 2A - \frac{\pi}{2}, n \in Z$
$\implies -A = n \pi - \frac{\pi}{2}$
$\implies A = \frac{\pi}{2} - n \pi$
Looks like there is a solution.
08:02
@ShuklaSannidhya go back and check if that really is a solution
hint: it is not
@tobias:Also, there is a clear lack of written prrofs on the documents in internet unless your reading a book or something. And you know how books are, very narrow when it comes to such topics.
@Nick I guess it might just be me, but I don't find those identities or their proofs remotely interesting
Where am I going wrong?
but I know that some people do
@ShuklaSannidhya the solution you have found is not a valid input
@Tobias: Highschoolers definitely will!
08:05
@TobiasKildetoft err... what?
@ShuklaSannidhya you can't put that number into tan
Which number?
the one you found to be a solution
cot(2x) = tan(π/2−2x) is right. What are you talking about?
08:10
@TobiasKildetoft Oh yea... you're right.
@ShuklaSannidhya: I'm sorry for asking but I didn't get.
@Nick He did some correct manipulations, concluding that if there was a solution, it would be of a certain form
@Nick My solution was $\frac{\pi}{2} - n \pi$ which does not come under tan's domain...
for any value of n...
Oh. How did I not realize that!
this is actually a really good example of why it is so important to check if the solution you have found by using various manipulations really is a solution
since it is not obvious which step is not reversible until you think a bit more about it
08:14
$\tan(-A) = - \tan(A)$ is right, isn't it?
yeah
cuz sin(-A) = - sin(A)
@ShuklaSannidhya as far as I can tell, all your manipulations are correct, and the chain of implications is also correct
so the above is a valid proof that the equation has no solutions
But it's so awesome that it doesn't yield an answer.
I mean, has no solutions
:D
@Tobias: Do you happen to know things about sequences and series
@Nick depends on what things
I have a very peculiar question. Let S be the sum, P be the product and R the sum of reciprocals of n terms in a gp. Prove that $P^2 * R^n = S^n$
How do I even start?
I can't derive any of these except the sum.
08:21
a gp?
geometric progression?
yes
hmm, so what does a term on the left side look like?
$(a * (1-r^n) / 1-r )^n$
Yeah, I'm not even close to the answer. It's just something I have encountered in some old papers. I've been searching for an answer everywhere. I'm only asking because I really can't get it.
so what does an arbitrary term of such an $n$'th power of a sum with $n$ elements look like?
A term in a geometric progression looks like $a*r^{n-1}$
08:32
@Nick you can probably ignore the $a$ for now to make things simpler
(yeah, it just floats outside on both sides and disappears)
ok. The exponents are kinda my problem. I just haven't learnt to handle them.
@Nick do you know the multinomial formula?
uh no. XD
hmm, maybe we should ignore the coefficients for now
it might be more illuminating to see if they are really needed
so a term on the right side has the form of a product of $n$ elements from the progression
(not necessarily different ones)
so it is some power of $r$
actually, due to the form of the terms, the multinomial formula would probably not help much anyway
Oh wait a second, I think I figured out how to derive the value of P
08:38
given some element on the right, you should try to match it with an element on the left, but picking some powers of $r$ to multiply, such that when you then further multiply by $P^2$, you get the term you had on the right
My view was that I could somehow just find the values individually and substitute.
Hoping that'll work
P being the product of n terms of a gp implies
$P = a*ar*ar^2 ....$
$P = a^n * r^{n(n-1)/2}$
@Nick I think a possible way to do this is to pick a bijection between $n$-tuples of naturals with certain properties and itself
and picking that bijection in the right way
such that if you take the term corresponding to one tuples, if you add twice that exponent of $r$ you just found to all the entries gives you the tuples it is sent to by the bijection
That sounds so complicated for something that looks so simple
I don't agree that it looks simple
I'm a highschooler, I of all people should know what looks simple.
O-o doesn't mean I maybe right, though
XD Maybe I wasn't clear when I asked the question or maybe there's been some miscommunication.
If $S$ is the sum, $P$ is the product and $R$ is the sum of reciprocals of n terms of a geometric progression, prove that $P^2∗R^n=S^n$
08:56
right
the last part looks simple until you remember that $S$ and $R$ are $n$-fold sums
ok, that's the question.
The things I know are:
$P = a^n * r^{n(n-1)/2}$
@Nick try to do a few examples for small $n$
and so, $P^2 = a^{2n} * r^{n(n-1)}$
@Tobias: What do you mean examples?
@Nick check that it holds for small $n$ by hand
Yes it does. Atleast P does.
08:59
@Nick Yes, I know it holds. I mean check it by hand for small $n$ and try to see a pattern in why it holds

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