« first day (667 days earlier)      last day (4359 days later) » 

leo
12:04 AM
Dead chat
 
does anyone understand permutations
 
What do you need help with, John?
I also understand permutations.
 
leo
@JohnSmith A bit yes
 
12:21 AM
I am trying to understand how a permutation relates to conjugacy class
for instance say i have the permutation 1 4 5 2 3
what conj class is that
 
leo
@JohnSmith Is that cycle?
 
yes
like if i took the numbers from 1 to 5 and arranged them in that order
1 4 5 2 3 for instance
what cycle is this/
 
leo
In $S_5$ I guess
 
but i mean i always see stuff like (1 3)(2 4) stuff like that
 
leo
oh you mean $\begin{pmatrix}1 & 2 & 3 & 4 & 5 \\ 1 & 4 & 5 & 2 & 3\end{pmatrix}$
 
12:25 AM
perhaps
i am just trying to understand
what does that mean
 
leo
you use chatJaX
?
 
yes
 
leo
I mean you see the matrix
ok
I guess you understand what $\begin{pmatrix}1 & 2 & 3 & 4 & 5 \\ 1 & 4 & 5 & 2 & 3\end{pmatrix}$ means
right?
 
i dont
top row is the correct order
bottom row is current order
 
leo
yes. Let $\sigma=\begin{pmatrix}1 & 2 & 3 & 4 & 5 \\ 1 & 4 & 5 & 2 & 3\end{pmatrix}$
then $\sigma$ that takes 1 2 3 4 5 and rearranges it to 1 4 5 2 3
do you understand?
$\sigma$ is just a function $\sigma : \{1,2,3,4,5\}\to \{1,2,3,4,5\}$. When we write $$\sigma=\begin{pmatrix}1 & 2 & 3 & 4 & 5 \\ 1 & 4 & 5 & 2 & 3\end{pmatrix}$$ we mean $\sigma(1)=1$, $\sigma(2)=4$, $\sigma(3)=5$ and so on
 
12:33 AM
so what is this thing where i see stuff written like (13)(45) and so on
 
leo
I'll explain that, but do you understand what I have said?
 
yes
 
leo
ok
here we go
For instance, in $S_5$, when you see something like $\sigma=(243)$ that means that $sigma$ do $$\begin{matrix}1\to 1\\ 2\to 4\\ 4\to 3\\ 3\to 2\\ 5\to 5\end{matrix}$$
it should be read as $2\to 4\to 3\to 2$ and leave the $1$ and $5$ unchanged
that's because things like $(1,2,4)$ or $(1,3)$ are called cycles
 
so does (1 2 4) means whatever's in the first spot needs to go to the 2nd spot, whatever's in 2nd spot goes to 4th spot, whatever's in 4th spot goes to 1st spot?
 
leo
@JohnSmith Exactly! :-)
Another example in $S_5$, consider $\tau=(1,3)$. That means that $\tau$ do $1\to 3\to 1$ and leaves the other unchanged
 
12:42 AM
doesnt this mean it's inversed in order?
like if i have permutation 1 4 6 5 2 7 3
 
leo
@JohnSmith That's mean $$\begin{matrix} 1\to 3\\ 2\to 2\\ 3\to 1\\ 4\to 4\\ 5\to 5 \end{matrix}$$
I'm talking about $\tau$
 
1 4 6 5 2 7 3 = (4 5 2) (3 6 7) ?
 
leo
@JohnSmith yes
 
@leo did you see my reply?
 
leo
@robjohn Yep. Thanks for elaborate on it. Your answer deserves the bounty :-)
 
12:51 AM
@leo GenericHuman's answer is correct, but a bit more terse. If I hadn't just written my answer, I would have a harder time following his.
 
leo
@JohnSmith to put things clear we write $(k_1,k_2,k_3,k_4)$ it means: whatever in the first spot go to the second spot, the second spot go to the third spot, the third spot go the fourth spot,..., the last spot go to the first spot
@robjohn I follow his answer because I was trying to understand you (6) equation :-)
I have realized (6) via some tb suggestion
@JohnSmith how goes now?
 
i am still having trouble
because number of cycles = number of partitions of n
like (452)(367)
this is like the partition 3+3
unless i need to write it (1)(452)(367)?
 
leo
well you have to understand first how cycles work
 
I hate to potentially dampen enthusiasm but I don't see how to salvage an "I want to learn all of mathematics" question.
 
leo
@JohnSmith It depends on which $S_n$ are you working on
 
12:57 AM
I am just trying to figure out how to write a conjugacy/cycle for a permutation
say i have a list of 4 elements, that's 5 partitions
 
leo
okay
 
4, 1+3, 2+2, 1+1+2, 1+1+1+1
 
leo
and what?
 
this means i write the classes with that length
like 1+1+2 means (1)(2)(34)
1+3 is (1)(234) and so on
 
leo
yes
 
1:00 AM
so any permutation must be written in cycle form having n numbers total
so 1 4 6 5 2 7 3 means it has to be written in a cycle with 7 numbers total
 
leo
@JohnSmith You first have to decompose your permutation on a product of cycles
@DylanMoreland Too broad indeed
 
@GenericHuman: Hi there! I didn't see you there until I scanned the attendance bar :-)
 
leo
@robjohn have you see mine in there
 
@leo yes, I did. I didn't get around to reading it all yet. There is a lot there to read :-)
 
leo
@robjohn Yes. I want to clear it and just leave the Lebesgue stuff
The first things only works for $g$ continuous
 
1:06 AM
man this is really hard to understand
 
@leo I tried hard to avoid Lebesgue stuff since the problem was about Riemann integrals.
 
leo
@JohnSmith Here is how can you decompose a given permutation on a product of cycles: consider for instance $\sigma=\begin{pmatrix}1 & 2 & 3 & 4 & 5 & 6 & 7\\ 1 & 4 & 6 & 5 & 2 & 7 & 3 \end{pmatrix}$ in $S_7$
 
off to the park. BBL.
 
leo
@robjohn Yes. Then it stands for sake of variety :-)
@robjohn bye!
 
AbstractionOfMe is just trolling meta now, right?
 
1:14 AM
@DylanMoreland Link?
 
@PeterTamaroff Sure.
 
hi all
 
@DylanMoreland I think he's trolling.
@Eugene Hi.-
 
I don't understand what AbstractionOfMe wants
there aren't many "3d questions" anyway
 
1:17 AM
@PeterTamaroff haha you overestimate my moderating powers.
 
@Eugene Oh pity.
Well maybe @robjohn can help close.
Or @DylanMoreland
 
leo
@JohnSmith, then calculate. $\sigma(1)=1$ stop. $\sigma(2)=4$, $\sigma^2(2)=5$, $\sigma^3(2)=2$, stop. $\sigma(3)=6$, $\sigma^2(3)=7$, $\sigma^3(3)=3$, stop. Now we have exhausted all the numbers in 1 2 3 4 5 6 7, so you product of cycles is: $\sigma=(2,4,5)(3,6,7)(1)$, so the associated partition is $3+3+1$
do you got it?
 
why is it 3 3 1 and not say 1 3 3
convention?
 
@PeterTamaroff Burton's elementary number theory seems to have a simpler proof of the Mobius inversion formula
 
@Eugene Cool.
 
1:20 AM
I remember you were asking about this the other day
 
@Eugene Yes, thanks. My main cocnern is what motivated it's definition.
 
hm
it's just a way to "recover" multiplicative functions
 
leo
@JohnSmith by definition a partition of $n$ is $k-$tuple $(n_1,n_2,\ldots,n_k)$ such that $n_1\geq n_2\geq\ldots \geq n_1$, $n_j\geq 1$ and $n=n_1+n_2+\ldots+n_k$
 
@Eugene What is bothering me about Number Theory is how long some proofs get, as in there is a common divisor $d=ax+by$ of $a$ and $b$ is very dense.
 
but the elementary facts always take longer to prove since there's less machinery
 
1:22 AM
i see
 
I'm hoping maybe @BillDubuque can help me with those ideas. Its not that I don't get it, but it seems so manufactured.
 
leo
@Eugene That's true! :-)
 
@Eugene True.
 
leo
hi @çPeter
 
@leo Hey.
 
1:23 AM
@PeterTamaroff you're exactly right. number theory is pure motivated to solve problems. we use whatever's necessary
all our techniques are borrowed
 
@Eugene I hope it will then get more swift.
 
the intuition in number theory comes from other topics like algebra, geometry, and analysis
 
leo
@JohnSmith do you got it how to decompose a permutation into cycles?
 
I cannot wait to get to CH13 (Prime Nuber Theorem)!
But that will take a long time...
 
i think so, maybe give me a sample and i will tell you cycle.?
 
1:24 AM
@PeterTamaroff do you know complex analysis then?
 
@Eugene Nay.
 
this was an impressive glance at the representation theory of the symmetric group I read a little bit ago
 
you might want to brush up on it then
at least up to cauchy's residue theorem
 
@Eugene But this is introduction to Analytic Number Theory.
 
residues are a must
 
1:25 AM
yes but it assumes complex analysis
apostol's book right?
 
@Eugene Yes.
 
yup then you'll need some CA
 
@anon I have a book on complex Analysis at home. But I'll get there eventually.,
 
you'll need a fair amount of familiarity with complex analysis to study analytic number theory. otherwise you're getting an amputated version.
 
@anon Right, but CA comes in when studying the Riemann Zeta right?
 
1:27 AM
around there ish, I guess
 
Well and Dirichlet series, right?
 
right
but essentially
number theoretic techniques are borrowed
even elementary number theory implicitly uses group theory
it's no big deal though. some familiarity is sufficient. mastery not required.
 
How can I bookmark mathJax in Chrome?
So I render the TeX here.
 
I just became familiar with a few of the theorems and tools of complex analysis and got a grasp of it conceptually, plus maybe some actual study of the basics (like cauchy-riemann). You can get by just with some familiarity.
@Peter: I bet you don't have a bookmarks bar up do you?
 
@anon Maybe. I only have the tabs and the hotbar (?)
 
1:30 AM
Go to Wrench > Bookmarks Bar > Show Bookmarks bar.
Then you can drag links onto it.
 
Done!
 
@PeterTamaroff my personal favorite CA book is conway's functions on one complex variable
 
@Eugene Noted.
 
anway @PeterTamaroff check this out
 
I'm fairly certain I have a sign error in one of my answers, but I ended up with a correct result so either I'm imagining things or there's another sign error that cancels it out in the end.
 
1:32 AM
and this
 
@anon That'd be cool.
 
maybe you'll find something that's of use to you
 
Like $\text{Error}^2=0$
@Eugene Thanks!
 
leo
@JohnSmith ok. Decompose the permutation $\sigma=\begin{pmatrix} 1 & 2 & 3 & 4\\ 3 & 4 & 2 & 1\end{pmatrix}$
 
@anon Link?
 
1:34 AM
this, error being the first equality in (2)
 
Ajjj, I should learn something about stirling numbers and euler numbers,
 
ugh
stirling numbers
 
I just look at the formulas on Wikipedia and go with the flow, most of the time. (Most of the formulas are easy to prove once you see them, although a few have given me trouble).
 
does anyone else here use the song "finite simple group of order two" to see how much math they know?
 
leo
bubble trouble?
@Eugene ???
 
1:42 AM
@leo you've heard it right?
 
leo
@Eugene no :-)
 
well here it is
i understand about two-thirds of it now
 
@anon How do you study by yourself?
Do you have a binder or something of the sort?
 
"you drove a wedge between our 2-forms" oh, that's sublime....
 
Everything is on my laptop or my notebook.
 
1:50 AM
@anon But you don't take notes?
 
Sometimes.
 
i didn't understand how that complexifies something though
 
leo
@Eugene ha ha nice
 
@leo it is.
 
Hi
 
1:54 AM
hi
 
leo
h
iki
 
Anyone here watches Regular Show?
@Eugene "You're my AXIOM OF CHOICE, you know its TRUE" LOL
 
2:12 AM
@PeterTamaroff it's a good song. never heard of the regular show
 
@Eugene The full name would be
Regular Show (Anything but.)
Let me get you a link.
 
ah i see it's a cartoon
 
@Eugene Yes. It on CN
 
@PeterTamaroff sorry i don't own a tv
 
I heard it was intended for Adult Swim.
@Eugene Lucky you.
I watch them online.
But a friend ripped me two DVDs some days ago, with the first 3 seasons, HD.
 
2:15 AM
@PeterTamaroff wow an adult swim cartoon on CN. that's odd
 
@Eugene Oh yeah but I guess they have lightened it a little.
 
also i'm not good at finding tv shows. i find it helps with productivity
not being able to find them i mean
my friends have been telling me about this show called game of thrones for two years now
 
@Eugene Oh yes, it is quite "viral". I haven't seen it.
 
my friends are bronies...
 
I'm waiting for DEXTER's new season. But I'll watch it online. Same for the Walkind Dead.
 
2:17 AM
@anon LOL
@PeterTamaroff another two shows i've never heard of
is it the kid with the lab?
 
The serial killer dude.
 
whoa
 
game of thrones is like tolkien for grown-ups
 
@Eugene Oh sure. I don't watch TV either, except for some NATGEO on quantum physics or things of the sort.
@anon YEAH!
 
@anon this guy???
 
2:18 AM
@DavidWheeler LOL yeah. I heard it is full of sex scenes and stuff, it got some bad reviews.
 
i can't believe he's a serial killer
 
no, this guy. Dexter is a lame psychopath. I only watched a few episodes but he so totally has sentiment.
 
ah
 
@PeterTamaroff true. but peter dinklage is awesome.
 
2:19 AM
that is more like a serial killer
 
@anon Whoa there. I'll challenge you to a duel next time.
 
I thought BBC's Sherlock was good.
 
@anon that i have seen
each one is like a freaking movie though
 
@DavidWheeler Who's that¿
 
@PeterTamaroff you like dexter so much that you'd duel @anon to defend him?
 
2:21 AM
@Eugene Yeah.
 
interesting
 
My trap cards are nasty, and you don't want to see me with a full hand of Exodia.
 
@anon LOL.
 
It's like I'm in 6th grade again.
 
I never learned to play Yu Gi Oh! well.
 
2:22 AM
recently i've been watching these guys
 
@MarianoSuárezAlvarez I honestly thought my multiset question had a good chance of being closed as "not a real question". I an pleased but surprised that it was so well-received.
 
And anyways original decks never arrived, there were simply imitations.
 
@anon i'd attack all your life points before you summon exodia
 
I have a stockpile of starmans and 1-ups, come at me bro.
 
@anon I'll get the supersized mushroom and crush your dreams. Stop it.
 
2:24 AM
@anon i'll cast chain destruction on you and it'll all be over
 
peter dinklage plays tyron lannister in game of thrones. he's perhaps best-known for his lead role in "The Station Agent"
 
@MarianoSuárezAlvarez Are you there?
@Eugene That's hilarious
 
@PeterTamaroff britanick? they're really funny
 
@Eugene You go watch that link.
@MarianoSuárezAlvarez Do you have any interest in talking about the Möbius Function?
 
@PeterTamaroff i'm watching it right now
 
2:30 AM
I'm a boxer. Try TIDE!
AWESOMEEEE
 
@PeterTamaroff interesting how he made egg eating rigorous
@PeterTamaroff now i want that hat
 
@Eugene Everyone wants that hat,
 
@PeterTamaroff, I am not really here :/ Grading exams... I should be back in a while
 
@MarianoSuárezAlvarez OK. Good luck, or maybe, good luck to your students!
 
@MarianoSuárezAlvarez Fail them all!
 
2:36 AM
@Eugene !
 
@PeterTamaroff i'm just putting in a friendly reply to when he asked me to kill all the students who came into my office hours
@MarianoSuárezAlvarez hope i didn't go out of line
 
@Eugene Haha ok.
I would key lock the door.
And spare some potential mathmatician's lifes.
@Eugene Now I love "Why would you buy it anyways when you can get it for free." Explains many robberies these days...
 
@PeterTamaroff it was pretty funny. i like the indiana jones parody
 
@Eugene I cracked with the sudden ambulance appereance.
 
2:41 AM
@DylanMoreland hi
@PeterTamaroff hopefully i don't get tempted to watch the entire series though
it's been tough motivating myself to work once i submitted my thesis
 
@Eugene Oh, they're 10min episodes, so they're cool for a short break.
@Eugene You have already sumbitted your thesis?
 
yup
 
@Eugene So you're going for a Master or a Ph?
 
right now a masters
i'm going to UW-madison for a PhD
 
@Eugene On?
Also, do you have a link to your thesis?
 
2:44 AM
@PeterTamaroff on?
 
@Eugene Sorry, what are you majoring in?
 
@PeterTamaroff oh i just submitted it so it's being reviewed
i'm a number theorist (i think)
 
@Eugene Ok.
And what is the thesis about?
 
it's about this
 
gives me a 404...
 
2:46 AM
same here.
I would love to actually get the 404...
 
Do we need to proxy up or something?
 
let me try again
 
Niet.
 
lol, I got it
 
wow that sucks
@anon you got it?
 
2:49 AM
Wait, nevermind, I have a completely different paper on deweger.xs4all.nl from some other link
 
well it's this paper
if you have access oxford journals
nope that's not it
 
there used to be a working link here
 
mse was taking out the brackets in the url methinks
 
maybe
 
2:52 AM
@Eugene Works now.
 
cool
sadly nothing original
 
I can't see past the first page though. Definitely number theory, though way beyond me.
 
@anon this is so ridiculous
i've never had this many problems with a link
 
@Eugene I downloaded it, and I can see it.
I like the typesetting, old stlye.
 
@PeterTamaroff cool
 
2:55 AM
Wait
Are you Benjamin or Eugene?
Or have I got another one.
It says 1997
I think its not the one...=P
 
@PeterTamaroff haha. that's the paper my thesis is based off
 
@Eugene Oh....
 
my thesis is still being review by the department
if you want to see something i wrote though
 
t all elliptic curves are modular, proven by Wiles, Taylor, Breuil, Conrad and Diamond,
it took 5 people to prove that?
 
the modularity theorem?
yeah
it's really hard
even the semistable case was over 100 pages
 
2:58 AM
It's one of the main parts in proving FLT IIRC.
 
@anon you do RC
 
@Eugene WOW
@Eugene Although I don't have a clue what semistable means
 
(in this context)
 

« first day (667 days earlier)      last day (4359 days later) »