Mathematics - 2011-11-07 (page 1 of 3)

Asaf Karagila

00:02

@tb: Are you happy with the final formatting of the answer?

t.b.

Meanwhile: OP: What is the unin? - G.: It's what you get when you try to type "union" and the finger slips.

och! deleted :s

@Asaf: looks good, even though I prefer the standard AMS formatting.

Asaf Karagila

I'm not editing again just to change to \bibliographystyle{amsplain}

t.b.

I wasn't suggesting that :)

Asaf Karagila

Instead, I am going to sleep and that will be the end of it for now.

t.b.

00:46

@Srivatsan: I like your comments encouraging askers to answer their own questions, but there's no need to ping me each time :)

Srivatsan

@tb Somewhat habitual. Wasn't thinking about it.

=)

t.b.

Okay, I was fearing a nudge to write this as an answer...

@Srivatsan that was an interestingly animated smiley :)

Srivatsan

@tb Oh well, I will write an answer if the OP doesn't. happy? :)

What's animated about it?

t.b.

It started out as =_ and ended up as =)

(and with the correction it looked a bit funny)

Srivatsan

@tb :=)

t.b.

00:51

and very happy :) thank you!

Srivatsan

@tb FoolForMath is back. Now featuring your favorite camel case.

anon

He was gone?

Srivatsan

Suspended for like a week for voting irregularities.

Or is it J.M.'s favorite?

anon

Wait, is that directed at me? J.M.'s then.

Srivatsan

@anon Sorry, I was speaking about CamelCase. One of {J.M., t.b.} does not like it too much, as far as I remember...

anon

01:02

Oh, you prefaced it with tb. I'm blind.

t.b.

@Srivatsan: I think JM mentioned that he's no big fan, but I agree.

Henning Makholm

Was it Fool himself who changed his username to "Display Name", or was that a side effect of the suspension?

(Grumble. Username changes are confusing. They ought to cost rep.)

Srivatsan

@HenningMakholm When iyengar was suspended, I could see his handle as iyengar. Therefore, etc.

t.b.

@Henning: Now it's MaX.

anon

That's not an automatic side effect of suspension in general; I've seen others with 1 rep with their original usernames.

t.b.

01:04

No, it's definitely no mandatory result of suspension.

Srivatsan

t.b. I am kind of stuck in my continous->continuous edits. A significant fraction of the remaining posts are not worthy of edits/bump up.

t.b.

Funny: from his Side Note here this guy shouldn't have accepted my answer, then :) Should I add an edit showing that it is impossible to concoct an example as he asked about?

Srivatsan

@tb Why do you say he shouldn't have accepted your answer? Isn't his definition the one we all assumed?

Or wait, does he demand that the Lipschitz constant is global (but the length of the neighborhood may depend on x)?

t.b.

@Srivatsan No, when you have this definition then you can cover your interval by finitely many intervals on which you're truly Lipschitz by compactness, and then take the max of the Lipschitz constants. I didn't allow both x and y to vary, but only one of them

Srivatsan

@tb But doesn't triangle inequality take care of that issue easily?

That issue being: vary both x and y, not just one of them.

t.b.

01:17

@Srivatsan: Look at what happens at 0 in f(x) = x sin(1/x): you have |f(x)-f(0)| < |x| but |f(x)-f(y)| can be an arbitrarily large multiple of |x-y|. (you want to combine two inequalities, but one goes in the wrong direction...)

Srivatsan

@tb Oh yeah, that's a problem, yes.

That doesn't make any sense to me.

But, actually, coming to think of it now, that side-note definition seems to make sense. A function is locally Lipschitz at a if it is Lipschitz in a neighborhood of every point.

t.b.

@Srivatsan: Sure, that's locally Lipschitz. But he wanted a function that is "Lipschitz at a point" but not globally Lipschitz on a compact interval. On compact intervals locally Lipschitz implies globally Lipschitz by the argument I outlined above.

Srivatsan

@tb Um, yes. The OP screwed up a little. But I guess they did not understand the subtle variations in the definitions well enough to point out that your answer assumes a different definition than what they had in mind.

To be frank, I couldn't see the difference myself till you pointed it out.

MathMathCookie

To be honest, I got the problem you (t.b) answered as a bonus problem from my prof... I didn't fully understand the question, and asked it here in hopes a hint toward a solution might help me understand the question better - after all stackexchange seems to hate questions promoting discussions. Sadly, that wasn't the case - to be frank, I didn't really understand your solution, but based on the upvotes, I chose your (sole) solution as an answer. I will be taking time in the future to reread it.

" But he wanted a function that is "Lipschitz at a point" but not globally Lipschitz on a compact interval. On compact intervals locally Lipschitz implies globally Lipschitz by the argument I outlined above." <- I agree

t.b.

@MathMathCookie: Hi, nice to see you here. On chat we may discuss.

MathMathCookie

01:32

Hi, I hope (and would love to) to discuss this with you in the future, but I'm studying for mid-terms that are for tomorrow at this moment. Thanks for your help on many occassions by the way.

Actually, better yet, I'll talk with my professor about this (the bonus) question and share it later :)

t.b.

@MathMathCookie: Very good then! The situation is a bit subtle, and I guess that's why people liked the answer. I'm here quite frequently, so we will certainly manage to discuss this. I wish good success at your midterms and see you around!

(if you don't find me, leave a comment and check back later)

Srivatsan

01:55

Aw, that's so soft...

(Or is it? I am not fully sure.)

t.b.

@Srivatsan: try Googling the obvious :)

Srivatsan

@tb :=) (but how does it connect to softness?)

t.b.

@Srivatsan: I overlooked the history bit.

Srivatsan

What's wrong with wiki for history?

t.b.

@Srivatsan: nothing, as far as I know. I changed my comment, since eom is not adequate for what OP wants.

Henning Makholm

02:07

@Srivatsan I'm not sure I even understand the question

"not saving pages to talk about him" -- does he want an encyclopedia that speaks about Euler without having saved enough pages to be able to do so? I.e. it should have wasted pages on non-Euler matters and yet say everything there is to say about Euler? Confused here.

t.b.

this MO question certainly looks funny

Srivatsan

Didier's answer starts off hilariously: "One could do worse than to begin with What is a hidden Markov model? by Sean R Eddy."

t.b.

Again?

Srivatsan

No, I am just reading it now. This post came up in another recent question by the same OP.

t.b.

Ah, I remembered that because I fixed the link.

The Chaz

02:20

So... it there a reason why we are (arguably) flying off the handle when people ask "in the imperative"?

t.b.

"flying off the handle" = exaggerate?

The Chaz

The question (about Z[√2i] being an integral domain) was just deleted, but received some harsh comments for "telling [someone] what to do".

J. M.

@Srivatsan I despise camel case, yes.

The Chaz

take unreasonable amount of offense

J. M.

yeah, what Chaz said.

Something like "You posted in the imperative?! YUO BATERD!!!1!"

anon

02:22

Kb100 doesn't even understand how "Prove X. You may Y." isn't commanding. :/

The Chaz

I don't see how it is commanding.

anon

It's a command?

t.b.

Can someone provide me with a link?

Srivatsan

@JM YouAreInGoodCompany. :=)

anon

tb: math.stackexchange.com/questions/79709/…

The Chaz

02:23

Semantics, sure. But don't all our exercises say "prove" "solve", or something in the imperative?

Those authors aren't my boss!

anon

Well, actually they are, if you want to learn something :P

The Chaz

@anon ;)

Srivatsan

I just feel that our reaction has become less forgiving in the recent few days.

The Chaz

^_^

anon

That's true. I don't understand the rationale in snarking an OP that simply doesn't see how they come off at face value.

J. M.

02:25

At least Arturo's put out the polite boilerplate that mixedmath proposed.

Henning Makholm

Perhaps a meta thread would be in order.

Srivatsan

But one good thing about this whole thing is that the OP is now forced to add something to the question to bypass this objection. Just copy-pasting the homework question isn't going to work.

Henning Makholm

On the other hand, if we scare askers away with negativity, we will have failed our mission too.

7

The Chaz

"this objection" shouldn't be so... angry.

Srivatsan

@HenningMakholm True. I do think that we are being too strict an all.

J. M.

02:30

That's part of the point, IIRC. If you coax the poster into paraphrasing his/her problem, that's already a good first step.

Henning Makholm

In this case the OP deleted his question after Arturo provided one of his usual nice answers.

Srivatsan

Esp. considering that the culture within math is to post exercises as commands.

t.b.

I think one should seriously consider trying to revive Bill's CFV

J. M.

Okay, who wants to bump?

Srivatsan

@HenningMakholm I thought the OP cannot delete the question as soon as any answer is posted?

J. M.

02:31

@Srivatsan an upvoted answer.

Srivatsan

@JM Aha, technicalities. Thanks.

The Chaz

@JM And I've been trying to wait more than 15 seconds before upvoting answers :)

(by top contributors)

J. M.

I know, I know, it takes a while to read anything by Arturo... :D

The Chaz

(hero worship omitted)

Srivatsan

@JM For Arturo's answers, you may start off by upvoting first. :=)

Henning Makholm

02:33

I'm not sure "standardized metacomments" is the solution. What we need more is some kind of collective attitude bump.

2

The Chaz

@Srivatsan J.M. chatted about how he got upvotes in less time than it would take to read the answer (if memory serves)

Henning Makholm

The main problem is questions that simply quote an exercise problem without further. Piling on the imperative-mood aspect seems to me to be missing the point, really.

J. M.

@Henning: what do you think we should do?

Chaz: Yes, you remember correctly. It feels weird for me to agree to something I haven't seen.

Srivatsan

@HenningMakholm Agreed. All one needs to bypass the "no imperative mode" rule is to enclose the question inside that gray box, and to add a "Thanx!" below it. Doesn't count as thinking about the problem in my book. :=)

Henning Makholm

Not quite sure -- that's why I proposed a new meta thread. At least, a solution would need to include Arturo's canned comment about imperatives. That one is nice and friendly, but I think it's being interpreted by too many (coming from such a legend) as a license to hate imperatives in general. It would be good if it was rephrased as being about the difference between questions and exercises instead of a grammatical nitpick.

(^ answering JM's "what should we do")

J. M.

02:38

Okay. Now what could be a gentler way of putting it...

The Chaz

Would it be so hard for us to just edit the questions and make them polite?

Henning Makholm

@Srivatsan Even a grey box + thanks would be an improvement -- it would get the asker started with writing some text of his own.

The Chaz

I mean... it takes no time, you get rep, and it prevents future readers from seeing the "rudeness" - at least at first.

J. M.

On the other hand, coaxing the OP to write his attempt(s) seems to be a tougher problem in general...

Henning Makholm

@TheChaz What I'm arguing here is that it's not lack of politeness that's the underlying problem. It is lack of information about which part of the question the answer is stuck on.

Srivatsan

02:40

@HenningMakholm Yes, that was exactly my point here.

The Chaz

@HenningMakholm (I didn't realize that. Thanks for the distiction)

I brought this up because of Gerry's response to (perceived) rudeness

J. M.

It's 2011, and people still don't realize that showing where you're stuck or where you screwed up actually makes for better questions...

Henning Makholm

@JM The real-time nature of chat is probably not a good medium for such work, but a beginning could be to change "... many members will react badly to questions in the imperative mood" to "... many members will react badly to questions that simply copy an exercise without adding thoughts of the poster's own".

J. M.

That does sound better...

Srivatsan

@TheChaz I have a question in this regard. Is it ok for me to edit someone else's question in the imperative mode to make it acceptable to all?

The Chaz

02:44

I say yes, but am just a peon...

Henning Makholm

@JM Most of the people who "still don't realize" this weren't even around in, say, 1988.

Srivatsan

@JM What's the year got to do with this? New users are new users. I am not even sure they spend time reading other questions...

J. M.

Sigh... you're right. "Eternal September", feh.

The Chaz

(For reasons I listed above, and) because making someone (the OP) appear better/more courteous in others' eyes doesn't strike me as objectionable in any way.

Srivatsan

New users are new users. I am not even sure they spend time reading other questions...

Henning Makholm

02:46

@TheChaz A peon perhaps, but a Fanatic peon -- that gives you some moral right to give input on community standards.

The Chaz

Indeed. And truth be told, I authored a great answer...

:O

J. M.

I'll concede, @Srivatsan. I guess I'm too used to "feel around before diving in" that I expect it too much of other people...

The Chaz

@Henning: can you see IP addresses from your server?

Srivatsan

@JM In fact, part of the problem might be that it is 2011 rather than 1981. :=)

t.b.

Maybe this is heretic, but I'm thinking that maybe one should simply stop editing questions that haven't sparked some interest already, ignore lousy formatting and simply don't answer. People want to be helped, so it is their responsibility to deliver something presentable and understandable. They can always ask for help in formatting and formulation if they need it.

Henning Makholm

02:49

@TheChaz Yes (iiuc)

The Chaz

(standby)

J. M.

(On a tiny segue: what we're now doing seems way better than discussing these issues on meta. We really should do a "town hall meeting" one of these days.)

Henning Makholm

@tb Not answering is fine. It's the actual replying with comments that criticize style rather than (lack of) substance that's the perceived problem here.

Srivatsan

@JM Just that not all important members are here (and many of them do not even show up on chat).

Is that what you meant by a town hall meeting?

Henning Makholm

Timezones would make it hard to gather everyone who matters.

Altar Ego

02:52

@Henning: (<-- a.k.a. The Chaz)

J. M.

@Srivatsan Yeah, the logistics does sink that idea.

Altar Ego

Firefox 3.6, as you know ;)

Henning Makholm

And I don't think we can really make a difference without getting Arturo involved, given his habit of posting comments about imperatives from his authoritative username.

J. M.

He used to hang around in chat...

Henning Makholm

@AltarEgo Um, I thought you were referring to the discussion about logs from my personal server some days ago when I posted the 11111 screenshot. I cannot see anything about IP addresses of people using chat. Or am I misunderstanding what you're getting at entirely?

Altar Ego

02:56

@HenningMakholm You understand. I thought you could see me re-logging in under this account.

Henning Makholm

Hey, I'm just an 11k peon. No diamond, not even 20k, no nothing.

Altar Ego

Well, there is that killer* beard! (* might not be the best adjective)

Srivatsan

Hi @robjohn!

Altar Ego

(^ might not be the best adjective)

Srivatsan

@AltarEgo Acknowledged. Although it is a noun... =)

Henning Makholm

02:58

Saves-A-Kitten?

J. M.

Being able to carry a beard well is an asset. :)

Altar Ego

@Srivatsan See above

Henning Makholm

I'm wondering whether we could have a site-specific text in the sidebar of the "ask a question" form, reminding askers to post more than just the text of an exercise.

Altar Ego

So... about a town hall meeting, is the idea totally quashed? Maybe we could capitalize on the "star comment" feature of chat rooms to keep those unable to participate "in the loop".

(brb, as "The Chaz")

Srivatsan

What?! Altar Ego is The Chaz?

J. M.

03:02

Well, timezones do make the town hall meeting impractical...

anon

"a.k.a. The Chaz"

The Chaz

@Srivatsan Yes.

Srivatsan

But why so?

The Chaz

Well... (paragraph to follow)

Henning Makholm

@AltarEgo I'm rather skeptical, but if it were to be done it would have to be in a separate room such that people who needed to catch up on the situation didn't have wade through the usual break-room silliness.

Probably many people who have something to say would be more comfortable with using the well-known meta interface. At least I think meta is better for semi-structured archiving.

Srivatsan

03:05

@HenningMakholm And why exactly do we (at least some of us) like this chat interface more than meta?

J. M.

The quick feedback?

Henning Makholm

Good question. However, scroll back about 8 days, and see how timid I was when I first stuck my head in.

The Chaz

My profile on another forum where I moderate (mymathforum.com/memberlist.php?mode=viewprofile&u=7282) links to my MSE ("The Chaz") profile. Once, I received a very hateful private message on MMF, in which the other user basically called me a stupid failure of a mathematician, after reading my questions here on MSE. ... It came at a time when I was already struggling with my math future, and really upset me. Since I needed help in Algebra, I started "Altar Ego".

Arturo Magidin

Okay, finally managed to log in... I'll delete all my comments in the thread J.M. put as heads-up...

The Chaz

So there's a bit of transparency, assuming that I will ascend to be your (plural) peer in the future.

Srivatsan

03:09

@TheChaz Sorry to hear that...

J. M.

Thanks @Arturo! :)

@Arturo: we were discussing a few lines ago on the usual boilerplate for "imperative questions"...

Arturo Magidin

@J.M. I see that (still scanning)...

Srivatsan

@TheChaz I meant: sorry to hear that story =)

The Chaz

@Srivatsan :)

Srivatsan

@HenningMakholm If a separate room is ideal for this conversation, now is a good time to move.

That way, users here can indulge in silliness without guilt. :=)

Henning Makholm

03:15

Another reason why I suggested meta is that I really ought to go to sleep. I have to get up in 6 hours, and I'm not sure how intelligently I can participate for much longer.

Arturo Magidin

Could this particular incident been sparked by the fact that the original poster was not a "newbie" but rather someone who had already been in the website for a while? I know my reaction is different with someone who has no reason to know the basics (though, having "grown up" in Usenet, I knew the 'lurk a bit before posting' precept which seems to have gone the way of dinosaurs) than someone who has already participated for a while.

Srivatsan

@ArturoMagidin I did not note the handle of this specific user. Who is this?

Arturo Magidin

By the same token, it seems to me that Kb100's reaction was also sparked, at least in part, by a feeling of "I've been here for a month, this has never been an issue, why is it all of a sudden?" Though looking through some older questions it seems he was generally good about including context.

@Srivatsan: math.stackexchange.com/users/17459/kb100

Srivatsan

As a side comment, in this post, Kb100 is asked by anon not to post the question as an imperative: math.stackexchange.com/questions/79608.

t.b.

Well, no wonder was there never an issue because the questions were distinctly better in the beginning.

Srivatsan

03:20

@tb and degraded since :=).

Henning Makholm

What I think is that we have an internal cultural feedback loop brewing, where "question in the imperative" is being used by active users as a shorthand for a whole syndrome of problems with a post -- and we run a risk of non-communication if it gets so bad that we throw it at newbies who have no chance of understanding all the unspoken implications.

2

The Chaz

Yes. Now to respect your sleep... can you start another chat room dedicated to this, from which we can prepare a meta question?

Henning Makholm

Okay: if it has to be me who creates it: here

Arturo Magidin

I'm not really sure what I can add, except that it seems there is some suggestion that just because I complain/indicate annoyance/suggest avoidance of the imperative, others are taking this as license to complain themselves. If so, I can try to stop doing it, and give free license to anyone to borrow the template I myself borrowed and use it, editing as appropriate for the circumstance, or in whatever way is deemed appropriate.

t.b.

@Arturo: Would it be possible to display that template? I must have missed it and couldn't find it on the first few pages of your activity pages.

Srivatsan

03:29

By the way, I will take the opportunity to thank @TheChaz for bringing the imperative questions issue into the chatroom today.

2

Arturo Magidin

Here is the first one I find; I often vary it a bit (e.g., if the user already used [homework], or used [homework] but nothing else, etc).

Welcome to MathSE. I see that this is your first question. So I wanted to let you know a few things about MathSE. We like to know the sources of questions - if it's homework, please add the [homework] tag. People will still help, so don't worry. We also like to know what you've tried on a problem. [cont]

2

These sort of pleasantries usually result in more and better answers. Finally, I should add that posting questions in the imperative (i.e. Compute all such, Prove that...) is considered rude by some of the members, so it would be nice of you to change that wording. Thank you

2

The Chaz

(Alright fellas... off to bed for me. I'll be interested in what develops in the dedicated chat room. )

Sri, I'll let you copy that polite boilerplate over to the other room... :)

t.b.

Thanks, Arturo!

Henning Makholm

@TheChaz Et tu, Brute? I had sort of hoped you'd be prime mover over there to get the discussion rolling. Well, we can always revive it tomorrow if it peters out. I'm off to bed too.

J. M.

What about using "... many members will react badly to questions that simply copy an exercise without adding thoughts of the poster's own" for that boilerplate? It does sound nicer...

Srivatsan

03:42

@JM Why not move to the other room?

J. M.

Ack. sorry, moving now.

Henning Makholm

G'night, everyone. I've arbitrarily added The Chaz and Srivatsan as co-owners of the other room, in case any administrative foo is needed. -Makholm out.

Srivatsan

@JM Now that we have two rooms, we should ensure that the discussion does not get scattered. That's all.

t.b.

Good night, Henning!

Srivatsan

I am also planning to leave soon. I made J.M. an owner because I figure he might be awake for some time.

Bye, all. Have to be up early tomorrow.

J. M.

03:50

See you.

t.b.

@Srivatsan: good night

(by the way, did you see who was the offender in my last edit? :))

Srivatsan

@tb Offender? Edit?

t.b.

@Srivatsan: the question I just bumped...

J. M.

"Forgive me father, I have sinned. I have lost my 'u'..."

Srivatsan

@tb Oh my god.

t.b.

03:53

glad I found that myself

2

Srivatsan

I just lost my faith in this world (and got it back). :=)

I didn't notice the edit or the bumped question. I was not on the main site all this while.

t.b.

Hi @Mike,

you may want to start reading here

Srivatsan

What on earth does Big Omega of a given function mean? Don't you see a set of functions? :-/

Mike Spivey

Hi @tb. Thanks!

t.b.

@JM: I just noticed a silly thing by fooling around: I could remove a 6 months old upvote without leaving any trace

Srivatsan

04:01

@tb Feature or bug?

t.b.

bug, presumably.

You shouldn't be able to do that.

J. M.

@tb Aha. I was trying to convince Qiaochu a few months ago that it's possible to undo votes anytime after an edit. He said the time was limited.

anon

What? I thought removing votes never resulted in bumps...

Oh, you can't do it past a certain time limit or something?

Srivatsan

@anon The time limit is like 10 minutes or so.

t.b.

Yes, you can only remove a vote that's older than 5 minutes by editing. However, I just noticed a way to bypass that on questions.

anon

04:03

Edit your answer to the question?

Srivatsan

After that point, the vote is locked in and can only be undone if the post is edited.

t.b.

No, I edited my answer because there were some typos

That has nothing to do with it.

I was thinking about adding a tag, added it, removed my vote, decided to remove that tag, and no trace of my edit to the question...

Srivatsan

@anon Anyone can edit the answer. So if I ever correct typos in your answer, do keep an eye on whether I took back my upvote. :=)

anon

Well, I know why you edited it, and since that would presumably be your only business with the thread I assumed that was the "way" you spoke of.

J. M.

@Srivatsan I've seen you can undo a downvote even after it's been months, as long as the post was edited.

t.b.

04:06

@JM: yes, sure.

J. M.

I managed to remove a downvote from a 2010 post a few days ago, and it was last edited in 2010.

t.b.

Well, a vote is locked in until the next edit.

That makes sense: you downvoted something and maybe a year later you see the guy has corrected his goof, so the proper thing to do would be to remove your downvote.

@JM My point is that I could remove a vote from a question without actually editing it: undoing a tag-edit quickly enough (presumably a 5-minutes window) doesn't seem to leave a trace in the editing history.

J. M.

Ah. Sorry, I misunderstood you! You're right, that's weird...

t.b.

But it unlocks the vote (at least in the sequence I did it: add tag - remove vote - remove tag).

Mike Spivey

@t.b.: Did you click on "edit," or did you click on "edit tags"?

t.b.

04:13

@Mike: "edit tags"

Mike Spivey

I wonder if that matters. Making an "edit" always leaves a trace, doesn't it?

t.b.

I think so.

Srivatsan

@tb No, I believe that the system optimizes correctly if you click "edit" but only retag.

t.b.

Possible.

Srivatsan

I am trying it now.

I clicked on "edit" here: math.stackexchange.com/posts/79421/revisions

I removed the tag and revision 2 has disappeared.

Before removing the tag, revision 2 read: "edited tags", even though I clicked only "edit".

Though it bumped up the question.

Mike Spivey

04:19

@Srivatsan But not anymore. :)

It looks like the question was "unbumped."

Srivatsan

@MikeSpivey Cool trick, @tb. :=)

t.b.

I saw all that. The question appeared on the front page, the edit appeared in the revision history, now the question's gone again...

Srivatsan

Ok, see you all.

J. M.

So... who wants to reveal this black magic on meta?

t.b.

04:34

@JM I wanted to remove some votes first... :)

But seriously, if you think it's urgent, then please feel free do it. It is high time for me to go to bed.

J. M.

Not really. I'm just curious if this is meta-worthy...

t.b.

I'm not sure.

Mike Spivey

@J.M.: My gut instinct is that it's not. But I can't give a good reason off the top of my head to support that.

t.b.

Same here.

@Mike: may I ask you to do the honors here? (closing: user inactive, question trivial)

Mike Spivey

@t.b.: Sure.

@t.b.: Have you been going through old questions and getting others to help you close those you think need it?

t.b.

04:51

@Mike: A bit, but so far it rarely worked out and the votes withered away silently. It would be very helpful if more 10k+ users would look at this list once a day.

3

On a different note: I'm not pinged when I'm addressed with @t.b., please write @tb in chat.

(and thanks for closing this Hahn-Banach thing).

Mike Spivey

Thanks @tb; I didn't know that about the pinging. J.M. has probably missed some pinging of mine, too, for the same reason.

@tb I'm not good about looking at that list. Thanks for the reminder.

t.b.

@Mike: Note that the pinging issue is only in chat, so no worries about the main site.

@JM is known for scanning all the nonsense here and your gravatar is hard to overlook, Mike, so I doubt he has missed anything important :)

Mike Spivey

@tb Is the bright red really that much of an eyesore? :)

t.b.

@Mike: not everyone goes with the trend and dresses in lavender :)

dernier cri, I tell you!

Mike Spivey

@tb I'm afraid I've never been very fashionable. :) Did you see the transcript in chat (about a week ago) where I talked about the student who criticized my footwear on his course evaluation?

t.b.

05:00

@Mike: yes, I remember. The 4+4 holes in the pi T-shirt, too :)

Mike Spivey

At least I did throw that shirt out. :)

@tb: Since you were the one who asked me about geeky attire, you might be interested to know that you can also get that kind of stuff for babies. For instance, tonight I dressed my ten-month-old son in this.

t.b.

@MikeSpivey Very cute! I like the imaginary friend, too... I will keep that in mind. I myself don't wear geeky stuff, but I will keep that bookmarked!

J. M.

I'm partial towards "Bibonacci"...

Mike Spivey

05:18

Somebody gave us blue and pink versions of the "I like formula" onesie for the twins.

Randolf Richardson

@JM I just looked up "Bibonacci" on Google -- I thought you made up a clever pun, but it looks like there really are Fibonacci bibs out there! Ha, that's hilarious!

J. M.

Nah, I saw it on the site Mike linked to.

Randolf Richardson

Our three-year-old daughter is very left-brain, and already knows her multiplication tables up to 10 * 10 (we didn't cause it, she took her older sister's homework and memorized it on her own). I'm thinking that a Fibonacci bib would be perfect for her, except that she doesn't need one.

J. M.

Wow. That is one smart kid you have...

Mike Spivey

@Randolf: You could get it as a t-shirt, I think.

Randolf Richardson

05:23

@MikeSpivey That's a good idea.

@JM Yeah, when she was 2 plus a few months, my wife and I watched her type "cats" into Opera on her Nintendo DSi and browse the internet for pictures of cats. The older one is more into art than math (she's at the right level where she should be in math at school), and so we encourage the art a lot with her.

Surely some of you folks have kids too?

Mike Spivey

@RandolfRichardson I do. See this comment several lines up.

J. M.

Well, you certainly can mix art and math... (and maybe she'll eventually get to it) As long as the kid's happy and learning, she's in a good place.

Randolf Richardson

@MikeSpivey It was out of my scroll range.

J. M.

I help raise a nephew, but I don't have a kid of my own.

Randolf Richardson

@JM Yeah, she is happy, but school is a bit of a struggle for her. I know that music mixes very well with math (Middle C is 440 Hz, next octave is 880 Hz, and it keeps doubling, etc., but that's just one mathematical aspect of music).

@JM Ah, close enough. =)

I should look into how to mix math and other subjects into art more. I think that could help her a lot.

Mike Spivey

05:31

Speaking of kids, one of mine needs a bottle now. Signing off for tonight...

Randolf Richardson

Thanks for the suggestion.

Asaf Karagila

06:33

I missed quite the party last night.

robjohn

08:09

@AsafKaragila so did I.

Asaf Karagila

No biggie. As long as I have completed my proof I am fine :-P

robjohn

I was gone for most of the day for RL events, but also to work on a problem that kind of fizzled.

Asaf Karagila

I am decided to renew my efforts on some problem from the past.

I hope to come into terms with it, so I could solve it and write my goddamn thesis already.

robjohn

I haven't scanned the questions for a while, I should do so.

@AsafKaragila :-)

Asaf Karagila

I scan them all the time... no axiom of choice stuff :P

There was this question about axioms yesterday, but I already answered that.

robjohn

08:14

you've answered more than twice as many set-theory questions as axiom-of-choice questions. Have there been any set-theory questions recently?

Asaf Karagila

This one was kinda nice

robjohn

You mention a principle [1]. Is that a reference to the nearby link?

Asaf Karagila

The Diamond principle?

robjohn

No, there is something referred to only as [1].

Asaf Karagila

It was a correction of a previous claim that Shelah made the generalization of the diamond principle in the paper I link Sh:922, while it is unclear if he did that and if so then it was long before that paper.

robjohn

08:20

Diamonds is a generalization of [1] according to your answer.

Asaf Karagila

No... in Diamonds there is a generalization of the diamond principle to higher cardinals.

robjohn

Okay, I must just be misreading.

Asaf Karagila

I do agree that is somewhat ambiguous.

As long as this is correct now, I am good. How I hope I won't find another mistake this time...

Anyway, I am going now. The strike was canceled and I have to go to Jerusalem for more descriptive set theory...

Gortaur

09:47

@Jonas: are you here?

J. M.

10:05

'twas a hiccup

Gortaur

@JM hi )

Alexei Averchenko

10:59

sup guys

Gortaur

@AlexeiAverchenko everything's fine. how was 4'th of November?

Alexei Averchenko

what about it?

Matt

11:58

Hi

I just answered two questions and I hope no one takes offense here (math.stackexchange.com/questions/79817/…)

I just thought that the comments he got weren't helping him.

See you later!

anon

12:16

I offer a new math acronym: OTF = of the form. Just used it.

2

Gortaur

12:28

@anon could you please give an example?

anon

Do you really need an example? math.stackexchange.com/questions/79827/…

Gortaur

@anon ok, I maybe rarely use ) thanks

Srivatsan

@tb That link does not work for me.

@Gortaur Hi Gortaur

Busy these days? =)

robjohn

@Srivatsan works for me.

Gortaur

Hi @Srivatsan, @robjohn

Srivatsan

12:41

@robjohn Oh, <10k users cannot view the list?

Gortaur

@Srivatsan I rather were assembling furniture on weekend

robjohn

@Srivatsan What list?

Srivatsan

The one tb linked to

anon

moderation tools

Srivatsan

(Hi @robjohn, @anon)

=)

robjohn

12:44

Oh, I was looking at the link that anon posted. Sorry.

anon

robjohn

@Srivatsan: Good evening :-)

Srivatsan

@robjohn Why isn't it 4.45AM for you?

Not in California?

robjohn

@Srivatsan It is, but it is 6:15 PM there, is it not?

Srivatsan

@robjohn Er, no. I am in Pittsburgh.

anon

12:47

lol

Gortaur

@Srivatsan the Motherland of Heinz )

robjohn

Oh. Then good morning :-)

Gortaur

@anon you should update chrome

anon

I'm lazy and never close my browser..

Srivatsan

@Gortaur Thanks for pitching in. Oh, the glories of Pittsburgh... =)

robjohn

12:48

I was in Pittsburgh a couple of years ago when my son was taking a summer course in Game Design at Carnegie Mellon U.

Srivatsan

@robjohn Cool. I am in Carnegie Mellon.

robjohn

@Srivatsan: have you always been at CMU, and I just didn't know it?

Srivatsan

Wait, how old are the kids that take this summer course?

@robjohn Yep, I am at CMU for the past 2+ years.

robjohn

He was a senior in high school

Have I always been old and you just didn't know it? :-D

Srivatsan

@robjohn I know that you have a son. I just assumed he isn't old enough to go to college.

robjohn

12:51

He is in his second year. He lived through the blizzard in Chicago last winter.

Srivatsan

You have thrown some hints about your age here in chat. E.g., your stay at Princeton. I don't remember it, but I suppose I can dig through the chat and make a reasonable estimate .

@anon Should I buy those fancy 10k+ goggles for access to mod tools?

robjohn

I think I mentioned I started Princeton in 1981.

J. M.

Gerry has a brilliant idea, yet again.

Srivatsan

@JM I don't get it. Why is this better than zyx's proposal?

I am a proud upvotee of zyx's post, by the way. The first one to upvote, in fact.

anon

For a second there I was wondering why you regarded JM as having said Gerry's proposal was better than his own proposal. Also, sure, go for it.

J. M.

12:56

Well, with some caveats...

...like, probably should be for people below a certain rep/time threshold

robjohn

If we wait to show answers, there will be a lot of duplicate answers, I think.

Of course, it would promote some better thought out answers.

Srivatsan

@JM Yes, that would be more acceptable I guess. But I think my question still remains: How is it better than not allowing to accept answers?

Transcript for

$Mathematics$ Mathematics