The Bridge

btw i'll be converting the design to css soon. i haven't seen any comments on meta. about it. but judging from the feedback here it seems most people are OK with it. (except for some font rendering issues)

Ivo Flipse

we are ;)

your designs have been spot on so far, so no reason to doubt you

and nothing is set in stone

tzenes

4:25 AM

Ivo, macro is less about expanding and more about building a big army

yes you expand to do that, but if you're not building that big army there is little point

a good example is Terran 3 Rax

you can just keep those Rax busy and you'll end up with a decent army

and if you expand you can add on 3 more Rax

Jin

are you guys getting Halo Reach tomorrow?

i bought Halo3 ODST this weekend and my kids love it. i beat the story mode, enjoyed it

Ivo Flipse

the problem I got with this was a Protos coming in with High Templar, then a Terran come in with Banshees

tzenes

yeah

I loved ODST, such an emersive story

Ivo Flipse

so should I built anti-air stealth buildings or air?

I'm not getting it

tzenes

plus Nathan Fillion

Banshee's are largely harassment units

they can't stand up to much aa

Ivo Flipse

4:28 AM

and what to do against a terran in 1v1 if they start to built tanks? they rip through my marines

tzenes

so basically any aa+detection

against tanks the counter is usually more tanks

that or you do drops

medivac + backdoor

Ivo Flipse

I guess my big problem is prioritizing things, to make sure I'm safe against most plays

tzenes

BAD

BADBADBADBADBADBAD

> to make sure I'm safe against most plays

REALLY REALLY BAD

Ivo Flipse

regarding medivacs, should I first get 3 barracks and THEN go for medivacs?

tzenes

never never never think: safe against X

Ivo Flipse

4:29 AM

I mean, I get owned by stealth if there's no stealth detection, so I can't completely skip them

tzenes

its a waste of time and resources

Ivo Flipse

so if I go all out 3 barracks, without thinking about it

I'm dead whenever I meet them

tzenes

if you don't scout banshees, you don't need stealth detection

this is a mistake most people make

You think to yourself: well he can go banshees so I need stealth detection, and he can go tanks so I need medivacs, and he can go BC so I need vikings...

AND ITS ALL WRONG

Ivo Flipse

so should I send an SCV to scout or change my base to that scanning thing early?

tzenes

ok, so here is the thing, there are a LARGE number of ways to scout

Ivo Flipse

4:32 AM

I know I shouldn't try to built around everything, but it's just like leaving your base open against zerg as terran, your just waiting for them to kill your SCVs if you're not really fast on units

tzenes

you're entire mind set is counter productive

You're making a mental checklist of: how do I deal with X

Ivo Flipse

so what would you recommend?

tzenes

and the result is you're shooting yourself in the foot

First you need a strategy: 3 Rax

next you need a follow up: stim/medivac

finally you need an endgame: siege tanks

Now if he goes banshees, you have marines

if he goes tanks, you have marauders

your strategy handles most things

but don't think: I need X incase he builds Y

instead think: I have X how can I use that to beat Y

Ivo Flipse

well like I said: I tried to focus on maximizing unit building, but got beaten quite badly a couple of times in a row

tzenes

I feel you, and I understand that can be frusterating, but there are a lot of reasons why that can be

Ivo Flipse

4:35 AM

now I guess your main point is that I didn't scout

and that's my own fault

tzenes

if you try to do everything you're doing to end up being poor at everything and good at nothing

Ivo Flipse

so then my question is, what unit should I sacrifice when for scouting?

tzenes

scouting happens in a number of ways, not all of which are sacrifices

sending a Hellion up his ramp to take a hit will show you a ton about his composition, and you can usually run quick enough to keep it alive

Flying a Barracks over his base will give you a lot of intel

Ivo Flipse

I mean sacrifice taking a SCV from production

tzenes

and most of the time you can save it

there are a lot of ways to scout

but if your core strategy is tough, you don't need a ton of intel, just a little

so if you're 3 rax and suddenly you see banshees heading to your base, you've already got it covered

a single scan and stimmed marines will take care of it

Ivo Flipse

4:38 AM

only if you can detect them :P

tzenes

You don't need to be preparing 3 minutes in advance

Ivo Flipse

I guess I'm not flexible enough :P

tzenes

Usually them shooting is a big hint

Ivo Flipse

yeah, but I guess another mistake was not having teched up scanning

tzenes

you should normally be getting OC on 15-16

if for the minerals alone

I actually like to use a barracks as my scout

tends to see more

Ivo Flipse

4:40 AM

build it near his base then I reckon?

tzenes

sometimes I just fly it from my base to his

Ivo Flipse

would you recommend flying in for a harras if he doesn't scout himself?

tzenes

you can, if you're on desert oasis or some other maps

but usually just scouting is enough

Ivo Flipse

well guess I'll be playing Terran only then for this week :P

tzenes

well if you want the protoss equivilent its 3 gate

Ivo Flipse

4:44 AM

no, I suck as protos as long as I don't get the chance to make loads of carriers :P

I mean if they come with mass marine/marauder medivacs

my bunch of zealots are fucked

tzenes

well ideally you get stalkers too

Ivo Flipse

but again: I guess I didn't have enough zealots to start with

tzenes

and maybe a colossus

Ivo Flipse

then it's no longer 3 gate :P but 3 gate + robotics facility :P

tzenes

and mmm isn't 3rax, its 3rax + starport

why does it feel like Idra is the only good Zerg player?

Ivo Flipse

4:52 AM

I don't know, because he is?

tzenes

its just because Yang Chia Cheng isn't in the GLS

Mechko

5:37 AM

hates databases

tzenes

I hate relational databases

I don't mind the other type

Mechko

heh. I've been banging my head against a relational algebra problem for close to 5 hours. I am now convinced that I've made my life harder than necessary

Ivo Flipse

ask it on SO :P

but don't forget pictures, else people don't vote!

Mechko

Not allowed :-p it's for class. All I can do is mope around chat for meta-sympathy :(

tzenes

can you give us a taste of the problem?

Mechko

5:41 AM

Oh I can tell you the problem if you like, but I can't accept any help from you.

Ivo Flipse

does it comfort you that I'm still exporting data?

I've been doing that probably since you left

Mechko

Consider the tables Frequents(drinker, bar), Likes(drinker, beer), Sells(bar, beer), with obvious meanings. We say that a bar b is redundant if there exists a bar b1 such that (i) b1 sells all the beers that b sells, and (ii) All the drinkers that frequent b and like some beer that b sells, also frequent b1. Write a relational algebra query to find all redundant bars. Do not use the aggregate operator or joins.

tzenes

shoot @mechko

awe, no joins

Mechko

I'm not entirely sure about the joins part though. I think we may be able to / required to use one

but exactly one

tzenes

well joins would help

because then you can do things like:SELECT *
FROM sells INNER JOIN likes
ON bar.beer= drinker.beer;

Mechko

5:45 AM

relational algebra

tzenes

or where

you get what I mean

Mechko

not sql

tzenes

I don't know the relational algebra for a join

Relational algebra

Relational algebra, an offshoot of first-order logic (and of algebra of sets), deals with a set of finitary relations (see also relation (database)) which is closed under certain operators. These operators operate on one or more relations to yield a relation. Relational algebra is a part of computer science. Introduction Relational algebras received little attention until the publication of E.F. Codd's relational model of data in 1970. Codd proposed such an algebra as a basis for database query languages. (See "Implementations" below.) Relational algebra is essentially equivalent in e...

ah, it doesn't do sub headings en.wikipedia.org/wiki/…

but like, a Natural join

that looks like what you want

so you can select the drinkers who like the same beer as the bars sell

and then you join that with if they frequent that bar

Ivo Flipse

like he said: he can't accept your help haha

tzenes

then you do an anti join of that between bars?

I don't know, I'm not good at relational algebra

oops, sorry

Ivo Flipse

5:50 AM

you make it sound so obvious even I get what you mean

tzenes

I'm sure there is some reason what I said doesn't work

DB was my worst subject

Mechko

heh it's ok. I'm kind of ignoring what he's saying right now (no offense)

tzenes

sok

none taken

anyway I need to go home and get some dinner

its like 11pm here

Ivo Flipse

its 7:50 AM here

need to get to bed...

tzenes

bbl

Mechko

5:51 AM

gah. it's 2 am here

Ivo Flipse

that surely diminishes your programming skills ;)

Mechko

I have to do this problem and then 5 more like it tomorrow, fit in class, birthday party, and prepare for my first class on wednesday. I'm scared poopless about teaching in front of 30 undergrads when I haven't even seen the syllabus for the class. Though on Wednesday, I get my Droid 2 at approximately 530 pm, which makes me happy.

Ivo Flipse

hehe, is it your own birthday?

first time teaching is always scary

Mechko

well today (yesterday now) is (was) my birthday and tomorrow (today) is my friends b'day. We have two parties (I'm 4 beers down tonight and I was still pretty productive)

Ivo Flipse

woehoe well still happy birthday :)

Mechko

5:56 AM

Pardon my temporal confusion. I'm still not sure whether 2am counts as the day you are still awake from or the day that you plan to awake into later

and thanks

Ivo Flipse

the day you plan to awake again

it's just an early siesta

Mechko

on that note, goodnight. cig break followed by sleep and waking up in 5 hours to study like a monkey on crack.

Ivo Flipse

hehe, sleep tight!

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