@All - I wanted to bring up a topic to discuss about racing and car design.

Full Disclosure: I'm a GM fan, so understand that going into this!

@Pᴀᴜʟsᴛᴇʀ2 it's okay.. I won't hold it against you

:P

As some of you may know, the Corvette is going under the knife and will come out with a new model for 2020. This new generation of Corvette, the 8th Generation (or C8), will be a mid-engine Corvette. This is a vast departure from the previous editions of Corvettes, which have all been front engine design.

@motosubatsu - Thanks man, don't know what I'd do without you ... ;-)

It is my belief that the real reason GM/Chevrolet/Corvette (the company, not the car) will be going to the mid-engine stance is not because the people really want it, but because they want to further dominate in road racing. In order to put a mid-engine car on the track, it has to be mid-engine on the street.

I'm wondering what you all think about this?

homologation rules have driven (no pun intended) design more than once over the years

ultimately since success on track will lead to more sales (Win on Sunday = Sell on Monday) it's not a bad choice

of course making it mid-engined will upset some purists

Morning again

@motosubatsu - I can agree with that

@motosubatsu - I'm not necessarily upset about it, but then again I'm not a Corvette purest. I like Corvettes, but I'm not what you'd call a complete fan-boy.

I like the new Camaros much better. They just look meaner, lol.

@Pᴀᴜʟsᴛᴇʀ2 I quite like both - the 2019 Camaro does look impressively mean, the C7 corvette was a great looking car IMO

2019 Camaro ZL1 1LE

@Pᴀᴜʟsᴛᴇʀ2 it's got some serious presence

Will they make it midengine by moving the engine back and making it "mid engine", or will they actually move the engine behind the driver?

@motosubatsu - No doubt.

@Markus - I'm not completely understanding the difference in what you're trying to point out, but they will be moving the engine behind the driver. It will be a "true" mid-engine car (engine behind driver; engine in front of the rear axle)

@Markus I'd expect a "true" MR layout - I might be wrong but all the noises have been about making the C8 a significant departure from the corvettes of old

@motosubatsu - Absolutely (ie: significant departure)

Hmm, unexpected (not that I'm that much into corvette but still)

very Huracan-esque

I think Corvette wants to compete with the likes of McClaren and Lambo as well. So your "Huracan-esque" is very apropos

I don't think they want to compete with the Hyper cars (like the Eggs), not yet, at least.

But they do want to compete with the "Supercars"

hey, no one competes with a/the swede :)

Dude, Konnigsegg is the man!

If you've never looked into the "FreeValve" technology, it's awesome. I'm a true fan.

@Pᴀᴜʟsᴛᴇʀ2 which is going to be a tough sell - the muscle car has it's own little niche in the market which Corvette's fitted - the European style supercar market is pretty saturated already

I wonder just if it actually works though. Do you know anyone using it in production?

@motosubatsu - I think GM is more than willing to let Camaro take the lead with the muscle end of things, while letting Corvette compete with the Supercar

@Markus - Using what? Mid-engine?

FreeValve

@Markus - Oh, it does work. Hyundai was moving forward with an engine based on it, but not in production yet.

I really hope they succeed.

if we are ignoring hyper cars they're going to be competing with the F488, the Huracan, the R8, the Mclaren 600LT, the 911, etc

they may be able to compete by pricing it quite keenly though

@motosubatsu - If they keep it sub-$100k, I think they'll really be in there.

they should make a wagon, then I'd be interested :) (corvette)

@Markus - The family man.

not yet, soon though

My wife loves the 4-door Porsche and Maserati for just that reason, lol. I'm of the bleh opinion.

@Pᴀᴜʟsᴛᴇʀ2 yeah if they try and charge Ferrari/Lambo money for it I think they'll struggle - but keep it suk 100k and it'll start to look like the thinking mans choice

@Pᴀᴜʟsᴛᴇʀ2 I've occasionally mulled the idea of a Panamera when the time rolls around to replace the Audi

I really don't like the design of the first Panamera, the second version is much improved, maybe still not the best design in the world though.. However it was freaking awesome inside.

Except for the way to narrow rear hatch, the quattroporte is actually i bit interesting. Especially considering the rather low price and the rather nice sound :)

When considering Corvette racing has been dominating since they came back on the scene in 1999 (1999-2016 record: 168 worldwide races; 97 wins), and that with a front engine car, moving to a mid-engine design is going to make them even harder to beat.

@Markus I do like both - although the first one had the unusual property that it seemed incapable of taking a good photo

@motosubatsu - ROFL ... sounds like me

just a word of caution... that's a large change to more or less everything in the car. And they have years and years of experience with FERWD cars, and no with MERWD.

I mean, just look at my avatar picture.

@Markus - If they thought their moving to a MERWD (as you put it) car was going to damage their chances of domination, I don't think they'd move to it.

The big thing which changed in 1999 at Corvette was, GM got the bureaucracy out of the way. They quit letting the bean counters dictate and let the engineers have at it.

I do, however, take your point.

@Markus there will be a slight learning curve I'm sure.. but the general properties of an MR layout are well understood

@Markus - Also consider, GM has ties with Lotus, which has been a mid-engine vehicle since forever. It isn't like GM is a virgin in this arena.

@Pᴀᴜʟsᴛᴇʀ2 and Lotus know a thing or two about chassis design and setup

@motosubatsu - Sort of my point

@Pᴀᴜʟsᴛᴇʀ2 :D

It's all just interesting to me, and thus the reason why I brought it up. I mean, if they wanted to make the Camaro a mid-engine car, I think I'd have a fit.

@Pᴀᴜʟsᴛᴇʀ2 the camaro going mid-engined would be fundamentally changing the class of car

where do I upload pictures?

the 'vette was always primarily a two-seater sports car

@Markus if you're on the desktop chat there should be an "upload" button next to the "send" button to the right of the text entry box

imgur.com/Tqzvome

Ha! What do you think about that?

A true 5 minute beauty!

the camaro has always been a 2+2 coupe

@Markus lol

you need to get yourself an FF

And a senile bankman

@motosubatsu - You're right about that

What do you say Paul? do you think you could talk them out of making a MR (what does that mean @moto? Mid Rwd?) and doing a wagon instead?

@Markus - Yah, I'll use all my powers of persuasion which add up to a resounding "nothing" and get them to jump right on it ;-)

Great! :)

@Markus - Did you ever look at the Dodge Magnum?

sure, not to fund of the front though

lights specifically

@Markus - I don't necessarily like the front end either ... though the SRT8 version is a little better. I just liked the idea of the performance aspect and the wagon getting thrown together.

and, I will surly step on someones toes now, but since the 70's american haven't been good at interior design. The hard plastic panels, how everything is flat, and those green displays...

@Markus - I think over the last 10 years things have been improving in that arena

But agree with you they needed help.

that front is actually much better than the original.

still, I'm looking for a cheeper than that I guess

Stance is good in that version as well. The V6 versions really are plain-jane ugly

(front end)

The Magnum is now defunct, so they should be getting cheaper all the time ;-)

the rear trunk opening is rather cool, opening half the roof

Yah, one of the things I really liked.

I realize it was about functionality, but it was a rather neat way of getting around a rather small rear opening

but, that's the same car as the 300 right?

@Markus - I really don't know for sure, but wouldn't doubt it.

it must be, they look exactly the same from front wheels to rear wheels. including the rear hatch

@Markus FR = Front-engine, rear-drive FF= front engine, front-drive MR = mid-engine , rear-drive, RR = rear-engine, rear drive

@Markus because the height of "class" in American car interior design is pleather

@Markus get yourself a CLS Shooting Brake

wagon practicality and they look rather spiffy

mmm I actaully like the c-class design better.

there's something strange with the roof line and the rear window on the cls

@Markus heathen.. MB have been doing their utmost to make the C-class look fugly for years

hehe

But I mean, these rear lights and the rear line.. it's not that beautiful

@Markus different tastes I guess. I think it looks great! there's one in the carpark at my current client occasionally - just that colour and it's very smart

Haven't seen it irl though...

it definitely looks better in the metal

in part it works because of it's size

which doesn't come across in the pics

opinions on the XF Shooting brake?

I actually think that the w204 is quite alright.

not so fund of that one either

jaguar has lost a lot of goodness since tata

@motosubatsu - No lie about the C-Class ... argh.

@Markus the W204 works in AMG form but it looks like a teenaged e-class caught in the middle of a growth spurt in regular form IMO

hehe

I think that the XJ is ok, but if you had a look at top gear, there was another concept sent in to them (or something) that they showed in the show, after the new XJ was released, and I think that concept was better than the end result

if we discount the AMG variants the last good looking C-Class was the W-202 IMO

@Markus I love the X-351 XJ.. I think after the Aston Martin Rapide it's the best looking luxury barge by miles

Yeah? I think that the best on is the X300 or X308. Much lower and sleeker, a study in really good classic car design. Where the goal was to make a as nice car as possible, not the most aggressive (like BMW). or with the most edges and crests like merc. Just a clean design

@Markus I like the 300/308 certainly... I just have a particular fondness for the 351 and it looks great in LWB form as well

There was a sweet XJR x308 for sale now, I have been looking for one of those for a long time, it was actually quite cheep to insure as well. But that model is impossible to have with a stroller

:(

I have to wait for at least 3 years until I get me one of those

In other news, I continue to work on my Camaro engine (350 SBC). To catch you up, it's a Gen I SBC, TPI, roller cam, one piece oil seal. The go fast parts I have bought for the engine as follows:

- Aluminum heads which flow 250cfm @ .550" lift (2.02"I/1.60"E SS valves; 64cc combustion chambers; 200cc intake runners)

- Comp Cams CC-305 camshaft (max live w/1.6rr is .544" on intake)

- 1.6 Stainless Steel Roller Rockers, 7/16th main stud

- Dart Guide plates

- ARP 7/16" rocker studs

- ARP Head bolts

- Main Stud kit

- High volume oil pump

Other parts:

- Stainless Steel engine fasteners (with Allen heads)

- New balancer

- Felpro gasket set

I'm sure there's more to it, but that's what I can remember off the top of my head

that's going to be a serious beast when it's done

I have one head on the short block. I need to disassemble the other head yet, clean up the ports just a little bit, check to ensure the valves don't leak (at the valve to seat interface), and reassemble before I can put it on the engine.

@motosubatsu - Not really.

I do want it to be healthy. It will hopefully be in the 380-400 rwhp arena, but who knows.

Oh, I did purchase some different injectors for it as well. They are 36#'ers ... should be here in the next little while. There's no way the stock 22#'ers would keep up with the new demands, lol.

@Pᴀᴜʟsᴛᴇʀ2 should be a good solid engine at those sorts of numbers - looks like you've covered most of the bases in terms of ensuring it's not going to be running on the limits anywhere

I'll still need to get a tune on the engine after I get it running.

@motosubatsu - That was the plan.

@Pᴀᴜʟsᴛᴇʀ2 are they the ones you were contemplating the other day? the second hand LS ones?

@motosubatsu - Correct. They are actually ones which come stock on the SC 3800 V6's.

But they are the same design as the LS1 injectors and used to upgrade to a bigger injector all the time.

I believe the LS1 injectors are called "EV1" style injectors

I've also cleaned up the oil pan and valve covers, then painted them Chevy Orange, so they'll pop a bit.

@Pᴀᴜʟsᴛᴇʀ2 hehe.. nice, I always like a bit of attention to detail to how the oily bits look :)

@motosubatsu - Well, if I want to sell it, making it pop a little won't hurt a thing

Are you familiar with the TPI fuel injection system?

@Pᴀᴜʟsᴛᴇʀ2 not in any detail - it's Chevvy's particular implementation of multi-point injection right?

@motosubatsu - It was their first real mainstream edition of MPFI

Though, it is batch fired 1/2 and 1/2

This car had the aftermarket Siamese'd intake runners on it, which is also a bit of a performance enhancement

I think I'm going to port match everything ... just so it will flow unobstructed.

Since it's all aluminum now (including the heads), I think it's going to be fairly easy even if I only have a Dremel to do it with ;-)

@Pᴀᴜʟsᴛᴇʀ2 famous last words :D

@motosubatsu - Yah, "easy" may be overstating my abilities, but I've found cleaning out the casting flash out of the heads has been fairly easy with it.

While the TPI system is not the best on the performance end provided by GM, it is my humble opinion it's the coolest looking :o)

@Pᴀᴜʟsᴛᴇʀ2 "because it looks cool" is a totally valid reason :)

@RoryAlsop damn... what happened?

@RoryAlsop that sucks, commiserations!

@RoryAlsop Outbacks have always had something of an air of being cool without trying IYKWIM

@RoryAlsop - Throw an LSx in it!

Engine swap FTW!

@motosubatsu yeah, there are 3 locally that are interesting...

@Pᴀᴜʟsᴛᴇʀ2 not worth it. The car is worth about £3.5k. Engine swap will be £6k at least

and it was always disappointing after my Litchfield

SO I figure if I'm going to be disappointed by performance I may as well get a big estate wagon thing

@RoryAlsop Legacy B4? have your cake and eat it

@RoryAlsop - You see, you'd never be disappointed with LSx performance! Sheesh!

Or how about a Stagea R34 ?

@motosubatsu Legacys are fun, but definitely not worth the money

@Pᴀᴜʟsᴛᴇʀ2 not really an option unfortunately

plus...it's a V8

And if I have a Subaru, I definitely want it for the boxer engine

The Litchfield sound beats everything else I have heard

@RoryAlsop amen to that - I really need to get my arse into gear and get the scoob back on the road

@RoryAlsop - You know the LSx is my goto for EVERYTHING! :o) But I hear yah and wasn't expecting you to jump, lol!

@Pᴀᴜʟsᴛᴇʀ2 Q: Dammit.. the motor in my lawn mower just dies Pᴀᴜʟsᴛᴇʀ2: LSx conversion!! Q: Ugh.. the motor in my blender just conked out Pᴀᴜʟsᴛᴇʀ2: LSx conversion!! Q: My pencil sharpener isn't performing like it used to Pᴀᴜʟsᴛᴇʀ2: LSx conversion!!

:D

(just teasing btw)

@motosubatsu - Maybe, but not far from the truth! :o)

@Pᴀᴜʟsᴛᴇʀ2 and yet strangely you decided not to do an LSx conversion on your Camero

@motosubatsu - Actually, that's most likely in the works for the 86 IROC-Z :o)

@Pᴀᴜʟsᴛᴇʀ2 and normal service has been resumed :D

I think an LSx swapped IROC-Z will sell real easily

@Pᴀᴜʟsᴛᴇʀ2 don't see why not

A stock Vortec 5.3L has about twice the power as the 305 from 86 has :o)

Where has @3Dave been lately??

@Pᴀᴜʟsᴛᴇʀ2 haven't seen him in ages tbh

@motosubatsu - And per your request ...

Not an LSx, but along the same lines :o)

I don't really know how well margarita mix and nitromethane would go together though.

holy crap!

@Pᴀᴜʟsᴛᴇʀ2 I'm here, just crazy busy.

I think my riding mower needs a supercharger.

@3Dave <Pᴀᴜʟsᴛᴇʀ2>supercharged LSx conversion?</Pᴀᴜʟsᴛᴇʀ2>

@motosubatsu muahahah

@3Dave - You'd laugh, but you know I'd come out and install that LS1 you have in it :o)

:)