The Water Cooler

Twyxz

06:31

Morning

Twyxz

07:00

@gparyani Look good to me

Lilienthal

07:34

@bruglesco No problem at all.

And yes gparyani, tags look good to me as well.

Twyxz

08:03

Rep cap looks on the cards today

Magisch

08:28

@SouravGhosh eh, depends what the calendar can be used for officially

I know that for instance if it's not sufficiently prohibited that employees use work email for private correspondence, then the employer can not access it and has to treat it under the general communication secrecy as if they were a email provider

xdtTransform

09:40

I don't know if it's a cultural issue or an issue with my communication skill. But does those rules about privacy look unbearable to you in a professional context?

Magisch

09:51

@xdtTransform It's a wash personally. We had to institute blanket bans on personal internet and email usage, because we don't want to get tangled up in being considered a telecom provider for the employees. Even then looking at emails or calendar appointments willy nilly is problematic. The privacy rules have definitely created extra headache in that sense

xdtTransform

In the firing process employee and employer may enter in war mode. Both would look for a way to gain money / not loose to mutch. And will go to court as the gain could easly be few month to years of pay as a free bonus. I do understand the need of protection against this.

Magisch

@xdtTransform at least where i'm at that's fairly rare

xdtTransform

@magi , I personnaly had a case of a 26 yo girl that will be payed until retirement for a job she is no longer needed to attempt. A simple private mail, lead to a firing, in the negociation process the employer agree to have her back and she agree that she won't have to be working to be paid. It was a quick solution that reduce the cost and the media exposure.

Magisch

rare enough that it hasn't happened here in a company with a couple dozen firings over the years

Twyxz

10:18

@xdtTransform Where do you live? I think I need to try and get a deal like that

that sounds great

Twyxz

11:38

Man it's quiet today :/

motosubatsu

11:50

@Twyxz I'm trapped in the Kafka-esque nightmare of a three-party comms test

it was supposed to take 1.5 hours - we are now coming up on three hours

and are less than half way through the tests

Twyxz

12:15

Long day coming up for you @motosubatsu

user2284570

12:36

Hello, why the downvote ?

-1

Q: How to find an apprenticeship position for a Master degree outside Paris in France?

Well as a reminder, the wage given to the apprentice in this type of contract isn’t paid by the company but through a tax on the wage of everyone else in the country payable by the company giving the wage so that the only thing left to be paid at the company level is the required man‑hours to tea...

motosubatsu

@user2284570 I can't say for sure (I wasn't the person who downvoted) but reading the question I would guess it is due to the same reason as the current close vote - that the question isn't especially clear what you are asking

most of the question reads as something of a rant about the employment market in your sector and region not being great and some open-ended questions about what you can do to change that/get a job? Honestly I'm having trouble parsing it - since you appear to be located in France I'm guessing there is a language barrier here.

user2284570

@motosubatsu The problem is clear : job market is kept dry and all the text explains the reason why this can’t be worked around.

Then the question is in the last sentence :

what to do for getting a job when the number of open position for an entire region is at the level of what would be normal for a single city ?

@motosubatsu Yes they are terms like formation which are hard to translate and the question likely need editing by an English speaker. But the open‑ended question is well because I’ve no idea on how to find a job in this situation ? Is it clearer now ?

motosubatsu

12:51

@user2284570 Sorry but the bulk of the text is really difficult to parse. You are failing(?) at your bachelors degree in a non-programming, non-security computing course but are confident to go on to a Masters but at this point in time there are only 14 open positions that relate to your masters degree (that you haven't started yet) in your entire region and you're asking us what you should do? Am I correct?

the problem is I'd be happy to try and edit your question into more english-native friendly language but I don't feel sufficiently confident in my own parsing of it to do so yet

user2284570

@motosubatsu Yes, additionally to the job market situation, I have huge personal drawback that makes me not appealing to an employer (but I also explain this can be worked around and that’s why I’m confident as to going on a Master degree if this is fixed)

@motosubatsu Please see the last edits

@motosubatsu Do you understand ?

And in apprenticeship contract, the employee performs real work which needs to be done at the company while the wage is paid by a the corresponding local state agency.

user2284570

13:31

@motosubatsu I also don’t want answers which state : just pursue a professional degree instead of plain Master or engineering degree or get a student loan from the state in order to move in Paris (since it’s not possible in France). I need to explain why those answers can’t help or aren’t applicable.

Arthur Havlicek

There is a lot of things regarding style of the question that need to be fixed. Linking to political videos for example is not OK. Remaining neutral is your best chance for answer. But even regarding your final question, there is a problem : you are asking for professional advice, something workplace isn't for (look for help center regarding this)

motosubatsu

@user2284570 I haven't had chance to look at the latest update yet - apologies, work is keeping me occupied at moment. Will have a look soon

user2284570

@ArthurHavlicek Yes, political video removed (what else is bad ?). And for the last sentence do you have any ideas on how this can be reworded in order to be on‑topic ?

Arthur Havlicek

I would reword your question about whether or not you do have a chance to find a job given a list of circumstances. Rather than asking what to do to obtain it. You can also just use the France tag and remove contextual explanations to make your question shorter and more readable

xdtTransform

@Twyxz , France as stated. The 26Y old girl is from reunion iland. The court rulling the deal was Marseille. And the situation was far from ideal. that was the best agreement we could had on this case. But she has an salary with no raise, nor bonus, as it's a full time job she can't have an other one that is not self employed or in the same field.

user2284570

13:40

@ArthurHavlicek A rewording that would help me of course. Because I already know the answer is NO.

Arthur Havlicek

@user2284570 Then present alternate scenario or options and ask what would be your chances ?

Kepotx

@user2284570 don't have time now, but i did apprenticeship in france, i could try to answer your questions

xdtTransform

I was not sitting on this one I just happend to had it as my mother was defending her.

user2284570

@Kepotx Did you done it through University or did you got the job through the institution giving the course (which can be an engineering school)  or was it for a lower graduation level ? I recognize the last time I checked 5 years ago they were plenty of jobs. I got surprised when I looked again after receiving the message that I was taken at the University of Reims

Kepotx

I did an engineering school (Bac +5) after a DUT, I found the company by myself, but the school organize meetings between students and companies

it was a contrat d'aprentissage, not a contrat de professionalisation, and pretty sure it was paid by company, not the state

at least for the salary, but the CFA may pay school fees, not sure about that

user2284570

13:50

@Kepotx Oui, surement versé par l’entreprise mais payé par la taxe d’apprentissage parmi les charges patronales.

xdtTransform

Un titre pro de niveau 1? ou 2. Je peux avoir l'intitulé?

user2284570

@Kepotx Not for university. But as someone who never stopped taking courses, I’ve access to the lower tuition fees below 1000€ instead to have to pay the full tuition for someone no longer in formation initiale

Arthur Havlicek

@user2284570 Back on initial topic if a job market is indeed dry, you don't have many options, either be prepared to accept "meh" opportunities (distance, salary etc.) or switch career for something more rewarding. But tbh if we speak about computer science : it isn't

user2284570

@Kepotx Sure it helps. But when go to the university you’re completely on your own. I also suppose you already succeeded at your exams so you could write on resume that you already got the degree which would be my case only in August.

Yes as I said they were indeed plenty of apprenticeship jobs in computer science when I looked 5 years ago (and there’s still plenty of jobs if you untick the box requiring an apprenticeship contract). I was really surprised when I looked for a job again after receiving the message that I was taken at the University of Reims. Those private entities now really harvest every position before they become even available.

Salary is fixed in apprenticeship contract whatever you do, and I doubt there’s more rewarding that a computinting job It’s not even about `meh` opportunities at that point.

@ArthurHavlicek The problem is I’m looking for such alternate scenario…

Arthur Havlicek

14:15

Money-wise, you can't affoard your tuition, that's why you are looking for apprenticeship ?

because obviously the most confortable alternative is not to do apprenticeship

other than that I've indeed heard its hard to find apprenticeship but I don't know, you still might be lucky

user2284570

@ArthurHavlicek I can afford tuition since it’s below 1000€. I can’t afford cost of living (Internet and real estate with 30m² of furniture and tap water and electricity and 6€ to 8€ per meal).

@ArthurHavlicek because I once failed at the exam but got money from Google in the meantime, I think I wouldn’t had been selected by the university if I didn’t pick an apprenticeship course.

Arthur Havlicek

that's what I had in mind. Try your best to get an apprenticeship anywhere in France, your options if you can't get to apprenticeship is taking a side job or getting in debt, neither of which I would recommend, but if that's for getting a masters in compsi, it would still be worth the pain

Magisch

if you were in germany they're handing out it apprenticeships like candy

source: I did one

Arthur Havlicek

I'm not sure it would be valid regarding uni if done abroard. Otherwise yes its a good advice to look elsewhere

user2284570

@ArthurHavlicek As I explained you can’t go in debt in France : you can’t borrow. It’s pay right now or don’t pay at all. Taking a side job at Google destroyed my bachelor score at the exams.

Arthur Havlicek

14:29

im pretty sure banks loan to students (cmso.com/banque/assurance/credit-mutuel/pro/web/c_63218/… although there might be conditions. I know someone that did business school borrowing most of the money.

user2284570

@ArthurHavlicek It would be valid. But I really want to work in my home country (France tend to not recognize foreign degrees even those from Europeean Unions despite the rules). I would also loose French Students social benefits (like nearly free renting for Reims) I don’t think an other country offer better social benefit with a degree as good as the one I currently have.

@ArthurHavlicek Yes I’m indeed taking an Oseo loan which works like the loan you can get in America but the amount is caped to 15000€ and the banks generally don’t give more than 8000€ so it’s not enough. And without an apprenticeship contract, banks will be reluctant to let me borrow.

@ArthurHavlicek but the local reality if you can’t pay tuition for some type of job that can’t be taught at the University is this one : fr.wikipedia.org/w/… : couldn’t afford to pay tuition for becoming a journalist while got all his relative and family dead so they couldn’t help him. He killed himself after describing he’ll do it in this message because he couldn’t make to the idea of being on low wage for the whole life.

@ArthurHavlicek And of course, he couldn’t pay the apport for a full privately managed student loan which don’t have limit on what you can borrow.

Arthur Havlicek

14:45

Different realities for different people. My studies were paid by subsidies, mostly (APL, bourse). I won some on my own with a "side hobby" (poker). Never worried about money, no melodrama here

if you manage to get some subsidies, some parent support if possible, 8k€ can be enough

France isn't a country were tuition is expensive compared to e.g. the US

they would scoff at 1k€ tuition fees

user2284570

@ArthurHavlicek me too. I don’t worry (I’ve additionally 3 Bitcoins locked on cryptopia.co.nz coming from a 15 bitcoins foreign debt that I’m supposed to pay this month the point if France don’t accept extradition cases if they come from outside the European Union). but if I’ve to pay for studying in Paris, However, that won’t make it.

@ArthurHavlicek I already said tuition isn’t a problem. Mais j’ai 40m² de meubles dont certains entièrement en verre. I also tend to take 6€ to 8€ per meal outside crous.

@ArthurHavlicek subsidies will never exceed something like 400€

@motosubatsu The question is now closed but please edit it in order to reopen it.

user2284570

15:17

@Magisch Yes. but I’m not fluent enough in German to pass an Interview. Though Reims in nearer in Germany than many other French cities so it might worth it. Do you know at which websites I should start to look at ? In France you look on the websites of big companies like Atos Airbus Sigma in order to find a job, but if it’s the same way in Deutsheland then where I can start to look at ?

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