The Water Cooler - 2018-06-25

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5:47 AM

Good morning all and welcome to a brand new week!

6:03 AM

I just wanted to start by saying that's there's been a lot of discussions internally about how WP moderators should be the ones moderating the WC (man, what an unfortunate acroynm!). However, the truth is that all moderators in all sites have moderation rights over all chatrooms (regardless of site). We all know that, we've all seen it working. And that's the key word - it works. Sometimes the wrong kids get spanked, sometimes the core of the issue isn't identified fully.

By and large though, the system works, and isn't likely to change. Moderators react to any chat flags (raised by people or raised by bots) and address the issues according to how they see it. We're going to see moderators from other sites pop in from time to time. Most of the time, they're Pandas (eat shoots, and leave). Ideally, however, site moderators should really be on hand to moderate their own rooms and external mods should let that happen.

This happens in all chatrooms, the WC is not unique, the WC is not singled out (citation supplied). That being said, the WC has effectively not been self moderated for a long time. We've left things to impartial judges to sort out (which in a way is a good thing).

As you know I'm a regular here, I'm also a moderator (for my sins), so I'll be on-point, and moderating. I will attempt to be fair to everyone, and try to get things right, and I hope you'll bear with me.

But, we need help, from you other regulars. I know there's been some bad blood splashed around last week, which led to a couple of episodes. I hated seeing that, and I'm sure that you did as well. This kind of talk is why regulars have left, and we we don't have many newcomers join and stay.

So please, if you feel that you're being baited, take the higher action and don't respond (don't feel the trolls). If someone says something that's clearly actionable and objectional, flag it and walk away from that line of conversation. Not responding to a conversation doesn't mean that you've lost - it simple means that you no longer wish to contribute to a downward circle.

If a troll has no option other than self-escalating a point, they get worse and more obvious, and thus easier to deal with by a moderator. Responding to trolls invariable makes things worse, you feel worse, the whole chatroom feels worse.

/Wall of text ends

6:32 AM

morning all.

Good morning Nofel. I hope you had a good weekend. Fantastic weather, but probably cold by your standards!

no, sunny and loving it.

How was ur weekend?

That's great. We took the dogs out for a walk yesterday, then I came home to watch the football (and glad I saw it). My partner went away for the say on Saturday, so I spent the day by myself (which is nice sometimes).

So I'm happy and refreshed, thank you.

nice

what dog breed u got

I have a Labrador and a Miniature Schanuzer.

6:37 AM

lovely

I had shih tzu

he was fun

back in late teenage

Very nice, they're friendly dogs.

and I got myself 27 inches iMac

no job yet got it coz my laptop is not acting right

Wow, that's some computer. Must be pretty sweet.

yea

well I hope I make good out of it.

If not, it'll make a really good TV..!

6:47 AM

I was thinking if I move back to Pakistan

how am I gonna take it

it came to me after i opened it

I guess you might need a 28 inch suitcase.

haha

so a cool company wanted me to show them React skills as I told recruiter I am doing a degree

and it has it

donno how recruiter put it

but I told him, I am willing to withdraw my applcation because I want to do what i am comfortable in

yesterday there was a chat in my out laws

about me loosing job, that shit got into my head

couldn't sleep whole night, not coz of that talk but why i am failing so many interviews, why cannot I understand what needs to be done.

my mrs told me, ask ur mom to support u for 2 months, don't apply just study

@motosubatsu @DonThermidor_LobsterMobster ^

cover ur weak area, finish the degree than apply till then ask her for support.

7:09 AM

@Nofel I am also actively job searching at this time. My present strategy is to take this as a 6 months long project.

@MaskedMan how do u manage to pay bills and rent?

So I keep applying for jobs, brushing up and studying, attending interviews when I get them.

@Nofel I already have a job. 😁

ah. good

I am looking for a new one, until I find that I am going to keep the current job.

I don't like most aspects of my current job, but there's one aspect that I like: they pay me salary every month. That one aspect outweighs all the other aspects that I don't like.

So anyway I am going to keep studying and interviewing. It will improve my skills as well as make me more comfortable with interviews.

yea

7:14 AM

If I get a good offer, great. Otherwise I just treat it as "interview practice" and do better in the next interview.

yea and don't go for recruiters

they add there own mix to cvs

If i don't get job this week, I am going back I think

4 hours later…

11:35 AM

Greetings.

Greetz.

@MaskedMan I saw your announcement....please tell me you were just upset by the events and this week you are in good shape and ready to serve...

12:05 PM

@Neo Yes to the former, not exactly yes to the latter. I was (and am) upset by the events, I am in good shape and I don't care much any more. I will continue contributing here, but drastically reduce the time I spend here, restricting it mostly to helping people by editing questions, etc. and participating in meta posts occasionally.

I will most likely not be frequently hanging out in this chat room, and I will probably not be answering questions as frequently. I will still continue performing moderation duties as and when necessary, but that's mostly out of courtesy to the community who voted in the election (just to be clear, I said community, not just the users who voted for me).

@MaskedMan You were one of the election winners, the diamond is yours to do what you will with.

@IDrinkandIKnowThings Good morning sir. Hope you had a good weekend....

IDrinkandIKnowThings

@Neo it was ty

@IDrinkandIKnowThings I always like it when you drop in. Life treating you ok? I got no complaints

IDrinkandIKnowThings

My own mind is my worst enemy these days

2

It's good to see you again Drinks.

12:12 PM

@IDrinkandIKnowThings I can relate. As I get older I feel more and more the same way...

@IDrinkandIKnowThings My own foolish mind tricked me into thinking I could win one of the recent moderator openings....LOL Obviously I did not win, but I learned a lot by running. A good experience for me it was.

IDrinkandIKnowThings

@MaskedMan you know all this noise is a warning sign just like an idiot light on a car. SE is ignoring a large bug in its system. And worse as warning lights come on they are silencing the alarm and ignoring the warnings. You are just a casualty in that process

COMPLETELY unrelated to TWP, if your looking for a really good flick try this one:

imdb.com/title/tt5164184/?ref_=nv_sr_1

I give it 4.5 out of 5.

IDrinkandIKnowThings

BTW I saw infinity wars. Great movie

@IDrinkandIKnowThings Agreed. Looking forward to seeing how they wrap it up.

IDrinkandIKnowThings

Im curious how Guadians of the Galaxy 3 is going to play out

12:18 PM

Me too....

And if you've not seen Black Panther, I recommend that one too.

Yep Black Panther was solid too.

Afternoon all. Damn it’s hot

@Nofel Hello sir. It isn't too hot here yet, but it will be.

IDrinkandIKnowThings

are you in india Nofel?

12:23 PM

Nofel is in the UK, but he hails from Pakistan. It's Masked Man who's in India.

I's currently 27 degrees centrigrade in the UK, 80F in other English speaking languages.

IDrinkandIKnowThings

its approaching that here in the US Midwest we will be in the 90's this afternoon

Georgia likes it hot....

All bless AC.

IDrinkandIKnowThings

I love summer

I would rather sweat that be cold

Me too. My partner is the opposite, which makes things interesting.

12:31 PM

I like summer too, but I am the opposite of you in that regards. I don't mind the cold too much, but I don't like the super heat/humidity.

@IDrinkandIKnowThings uk

@Snow @Neo Pakistan and India hot weather is bareable

coz u sweat

when u sweat ur body cool down.

@Nofel And you start to smell.....

@Neo smell is fine

some people don't

it depends on bacterias accumlation

atleast I don't

@Nofel Lucky you. I sweat a little no biggie, I sweat a lot I get funky.

I'm really glad I can't smell people over the internet.

3

12:40 PM

me too

@IDrinkandIKnowThings Aren't you happy you popped in for this lot?

@Snow they r making a device like that

I don't want to buy a device like that.

IDrinkandIKnowThings

always

@Snow It will be standard equipment do not remove by penalty of law

That's gross, I'm going to cut my nose off.

@Snow Now that would make you look really silly.

1:03 PM

@Snow Or you could just disconnect your system from the internet.

@Snow I posted a question in Movies & TV. We'll see how it goes...

[Entering Sleep Mode]

1:22 PM

@Neo You have seen the outcome of that last week. ;)

@Snow doesn't actually disable the sense of smell though

@IDrinkandIKnowThings I pointed out a flaw in their system, and they decided that "we want the system to work that way", so I am done with that. If I owned the company, I would have had things done differently, but I don't so it is not any of my business. But then again, if I ever have that much money to own SE (or SO?), I would definitely be able to find a thousand better places to put that money into.

Reminds me of this joke:

Son: Dad, I wish I had enough money to buy an airplane.
Father: Why would you want to buy an airplane?
Son: I don't want to, I just wish I had that much money.

IDrinkandIKnowThings

@MaskedMan and maybe thats the struggle we see a tool that can be soooo much more than it is and the people making money off it dont want it used for that good

I think there's a bit of Conway's law in action there. The policies seems fairly inconsistent. For example, you can retract a close vote but you cannot retract a delete vote. Given that the latter is more "destructive" (for the lack of a better word), you would expect things to be the other way round.

A single user (that is the OP) can mark a question as duplicate, but if he changes his mind, that's no good, it still needs 5 votes to reopen.

IDrinkandIKnowThings

I have an idea for a site that people go on and just explain their situation and ask people what they think they should do. The site people want this place to be.

But then instead of a score people rate the answers based on some meta data qualities: Legal or Illegal, social or anti social, etc

1:39 PM

That sounds like a good idea. Maybe get rid of all the close/delete drama as well (except for spam/trolling and such obviously problematic cases). If the question is poor, the downvotes will drag it down, but someone might still be able to provide an answer to those. A good search/filter capability should take care of all the "quality" problems that SE has a penchant for.

@IDrinkandIKnowThings That sounds like it's serviced by Quora, Yahoo Answers, or forums or chats or social communities.

IDrinkandIKnowThings

And SE

yes all those are things my site would improve upon

You can't rate answers on multiple parameters on any of those sites, I think that's a key differentiator in Drink's idea.

Good point, that didn't click.

IDrinkandIKnowThings

you would be able to both like the answer and communicate that while funny not good advice

1:44 PM

e-commerce websites have something like that. You can rate multiple parameters like product quality, cost, delivery speed, customer service, and suchlike.

IDrinkandIKnowThings

I am not saying the idea is original just that the application of the technologies would make the site awesome

@IDrinkandIKnowThings so i imagine i'd be able to filter down to find responses that are funny (regardless of good advice), or responses that are good advice (regardless of whether they are funny)

Right, I didn't mean to criticize your idea.

IDrinkandIKnowThings

then you mine the meta data of people and how they respond and sell profiles of peoples true selves so we can market the right tool for every one :)

On subjective sites like the workplace, I would also like to filter answers that offer general advice from answers that address the specific example.

IDrinkandIKnowThings

1:47 PM

See that is the problem, there are not supposed to be answers that are specific to the individual case by the SE RAI

Perhaps the best example that has stuck with me is this question ...

96

Q: How to respond to a ridiculous request from a senior colleague?

The wife of a friend of mine is a junior analyst and recent hire at her company. Recently a senior research scientist on the team asked her to make a Powerpoint slide to illustrate chances. The slide would have to contain a million dots, one of which had to have a different color. She confirmed ...

communication teamwork seniority

Monica's answer balances the example-specific solution with the solution to the underlying issue. The next answer only addresses the specific issue of the pixel matrix, which would be not useful in case of other "ridiculous" requests.

IDrinkandIKnowThings

@MaskedMan the next answer is a "Bad" SE answer

True. However, on your website, it could still be useful. With a good filtering/search, we can cater to people with different tastes. People who come looking for "gotcha" type answers just for entertainment as well as people who want to improve their skills.

IDrinkandIKnowThings

I honestly think those are the types of answers that we need mods culling. Ones that are the HNQ Community love but harm TWP

ohh on my website that answer would have been put in the right place i think

you are right I get the analogy

should we kick starter it

I guess Quora has a lot of such strange questions. They even have a strange tag "What are some X", and that left me wondering "what is X?" :o

"What are some examples of ~~passive aggressive~~ clever responses to ridiculous requests?"

I watched Incredibles 2 today. I like the movie. Of course, that goes without saying, since it is from Pixar. :D

IDrinkandIKnowThings

2:00 PM

looking forward to seeing it

I thought infinity war was an excellent movie done well.

@IDrinkandIKnowThings Sure there are. I know there's some mixed messages over the years, but we have a dual purpose: (1) resolve individuals' specific situations through answers/solutions, and (2) build up a knowledge base of advice that's helpful to others facing the same problem. #2 is the end goal, but we can't do that if we can't do #1.

If we can't solve any one person's specific issue then we can't solve anybody's issues.

IDrinkandIKnowThings

@doppelgreener Yes that is the other arguement

I have seen Infinity War, Black Panther, Deadpool 2 (and now Incredibles 2) over the past one month or so. I thought Deadpool 2 was an ok-ish movie, but the others were good.

@IDrinkandIKnowThings there are a lot of times HNQ does a lot of damage from an inexpert crowd coming in. :(

IDrinkandIKnowThings

and HNQ too often rewards bad answers along with the good.

That makes it harder to find the good answers

2:08 PM

One of my mentors told me early in my career: "Code which is not usable cannot be reusable." I have followed that principle throughout my career so far.

Yeah, that's my principle for stack exchange as well as development.

We build up our library of general advice through acquiring questions specific to a person's situation and providing answers specific to that situation.

There sometimes tends be excessive focus on making the code "reusable", even at the cost of solving the current problem at hand. We don't know if/when the code will be reused, but we do know it is being used now. Of course, that doesn't mean write any garbage that gets the job done.

But too often I have seen people making the code needlessly complicated by introducing factories, facade, chain of responsibility, adapters, and what not for a single function "in case we need to extend it in future".

IDrinkandIKnowThings

2:43 PM

@MaskedMan That is an excuse I see often used for lazy coding standards

at my current job: if we need to use something once, we write it for that one time. if we need to use/do the same thing a second time, we write it again and/or copy what we did before. the third time, we make a reusable/extendable version.

3:02 PM

user image

1 hour later…

4:18 PM

ProblemFactoryGenerator()

Hello people

Hello buddy @DarkCygnus, what's keeping you busy today?

Just arriving to the office hehe... came about an hour late

good good

But I'm in a roll lately, I'm still 1.5 weeks ahead of schedule on my tasks so :)

So time to focus on the legendary badge lol.

4:21 PM

how about you @MaskedMan ?

@MaskedMan 2 for Epic

(btw, was I dreaming last Friday, or how did that end up...? everything ok now?)

@DarkCygnus Long story short, it ended up with "Continue in restricted mode" (for now).

lulz

Huh, I post comment "reminding" people to vote the question, not the OP, and it hits HNQ. This has happened about 3 times in the last month, if I remember.

Please don't downvote because the OP doesn't know what should be "obvious". That is the whole purpose of this Q&A site, to provide people with answers to their questions, obvious or not. — Masked Man ♦ 2 hours ago

I see that @MaskedMan is feeling today a bit anti-boilerplate... first the Meta Post, then joking on Java...

@DarkCygnus I have no idea what boilerplate you are talking about. :(

4:27 PM

> As a first step in our new round of efforts, can we update the boilerplate in the help page and make it more relevant to our site?

oh :P

and then the ProblemFactory haha

Hmm, on second thoughts, I think it should be AbstractProblemFactory. :P

I am exploring C++17 now, looks like Java 9 will have to wait.

AbstractProblemFactorySingleton

On a serious note, fixing our tag mess is going to be one of my priorities. I don't anticipate that we are going to win that battle, but let it be the noblest failure in the history of ~~Wakanda~~ Workplace.

4:31 PM

I'm now getting deeper into Kotlin, speaking of less boilerplate :D

The gap between C++ and Python is decreasing.

coliru.stacked-crooked.com/a/b56c717d0dc88a74

This is C++ code, but looks a lot more similar to Python now.

Have you heard of Cython?

Yes, I have heard of it, never went into the details too much.

Greenspun's tenth rule

Greenspun's tenth rule of programming is an aphorism in computer programming and especially programming language circles that states: Any sufficiently complicated C or Fortran program contains an ad-hoc, informally-specified, bug-ridden, slow implementation of half of Common Lisp. == Overview == The rule expresses the opinion that the argued flexibility and extensibility designed into the Lisp programming language includes all functionality that is theoretically necessary to write any complex computer program, and that the features required to develop and manage such complexity in other ...

@MaskedMan Last goal for me here is 50K.

after that now sure what I will go after.

As time tends to infinity, all languages tend to Lisp. :P

@Neo Hmm, there's just one more item after that on your todo list, why do you even have to ask? ;)

4:47 PM

@MaskedMan No. I am living in the here and now sir. Reviewing the vote counts, I don't think I would have beaten Darkness or Moto. ( And obviously not Chris E, should he return )

@MaskedMan Good one. I am a C# guy myself. Avoiding C++ like the plague.

@Snow Hodor, and go walk the pups!

@Neo That's probably a good idea. I wish I could do it too, but being a Mister Sort of One Trick Pony, it won't be easy for me to avoid C++. :(

@MaskedMan Mister Sort Of >>>> nice play on words.

Lazy Afternoon

@Mathematics Good afternoon, what's up?

2 weeks off, doing my CV, think it's time to move on, after almost 7 years lol

4:54 PM

Good, looks like you are the third user in this room today, who is after a job change.

Hi

And he isn't a Mod either! awesome!

I'm looking for a job change JK

building CV is doing my headin lol

7 years at 1 company had been rebuilding same projects again and again

nothing much to write there

@Mathematics depends how you phrase it, 7 years is quite some experience

5:13 PM

@Mathematics That's pretty much what I did at my first company for about 3 years. I put a spin on it and posted something like handled Foo unit on 4 projects, advanced to leadership role after 2 years, improved process efficiency by X%. (all of which are true, by the way)

Don't write in your resume what you did, write what you achieved. Even if it means something like, the first time you did the project it took you 6 months, after 7 years, it takes only 2 months (or whatever).

Almost same without any promotion even though had been talking for years and years
I can gather a lot too but now don't feel like going back and look at appraisals to find my achievements

Unfortunately, you will have to do the grunt work if you want to make an impressive resume.

Given that you would rather prefer to find another job than continue with what you are doing, that is probably grunt work worth doing.

Agree

+d

Hello @motosubatsu

And @DonThermidor_LobsterMobster

5:25 PM

@Nofel generally greeting people as such is discouraged

5:38 PM

No, it’s not. Nofel is cool.

yup

Why @FreezePhoenix. Yea I am cool @Snow

5:53 PM

@Snow Then I recede my comment. Generally in a SE chat room you wouldn't do so however.

@FreezePhoenix I come and go and given time zone I greet people

@FreezePhoenix what chats do you hang more often?

why is the phoenix on your avatar on fire? I thought you were... cool

@DarkCygnus I hang more often in the programming chats

@DarkCygnus And the color change is because I am currently working on a project

@FreezePhoenix in that case, welcome to the Watercooler. As you can already guess, it's a cool place

6:09 PM

I've been here before

:V

6:28 PM

Don't feel sorry...

@FreezePhoenix this chatroom is a lot less busy than most SO rooms. So we don’t need to cut down on unnecessary noise. Shout out pings are fine here.

@Snow Hodor!!

@FreezePhoenix I have been here for awhile and have not seen you, but welcome non the less!

I see you darkness...

@DarkCygnus Nice job cleaning up that mess.

@Neo thanks :) had to milk the details from the OP, drop by drop

@DarkCygnus yep you sure did...

*sight

another post to give some love to:

(look at that wall-o-text!!!)

0

Q: Senior colleague feels threatened by me, an intern

I'm living a quite bizarre and pretty depressing situation the last few months. I'm currently interning as a financial engineer in an asset management firm, and to make it short and blunt and without being too "cocky", the one who's supposed to supervise me and has 3 years more experience is less...

colleagues relationships

6:47 PM

@MaskedMan has seen me here..

Lol

CPU usage top right

1 hour later…

8:17 PM

How can i not get dejected by failure during job hunt process?

I am not sure how to beef my shortfalls and holes - I seem to have so many gaps i am unable to fill. And things just seem to fall further and further behind

hey @Linkx_lair

hey @DarkCygnus

how many rejections have you had? One has to apply several times you know...

it's not like jobs grow on trees, so don't be discouraged by a few failures

i know- i have been getting rejected like several times and it feel like i have so many holes - from like even some basic Java to Hibernate and so forth. Like its been a while since i used many of the tools and frameworks- and there are so many. When i try to get better at like one or two, i feel like i have some others i forget or other holes come up

idk it makes my head spin

and it makes me bit worried i may lose good opportunities

what can you do to stay on top of all your developed skills @DarkCygnus and all the frameworks, languages and tools?

8:50 PM

@Linkx_lair you can't have holes...

NO DON'T LEAVE

I wanted to give you some pep talk...

@Linkx_lair that is actually a good question (you could even rephrase it and make it post-worthy)

But, generally speaking, I think the way I handle it is analogous to RAM and Long term memory

Having several languages/tools "loaded" on RAM at the same time can be consuming

usually, you want to handle just enough tasks so it's not overwhelming, but still productive

@Linkx_lair Just focus one 1 language... and learn it inside out, then you know the true concepts and ideas, then you only have to shallowly learn another language to write the same code in another.

yeah, one thing at a time

otherwise, you end up with only overhead, dropping your productivity on the others

or at least maybe have one project and involve technologies purposely along the way

8:58 PM

@doppelgreener Yes... yes. Good idea also

However, Long term memory is different. Perhaps I don't remember some specifics on [random framework generator], but I sure can refresh my memory on the topic (proven I knew or tested it a bit before)

The most important part is not to panic and stay calm when you discover a hole. Patch it up, and make sure you have it down pat.

^

If it opens up again, try to see why. Usually, it is lack of practice with the topic. In this case, incorporate it into your projects in the place of other equivalent topics. Chance is, using less used technologies often results in a higher chance of employment.

that's a "bold" thing to say

9:04 PM

i see-

@DarkCygnus you just have to make it a joke don't you? :)

:)

but yeah @Linkx_lair don't be too hard on yourself, and take it one step at a time

@Linkx_lair those bold statements were for you :)

2 hours later…

11:12 PM

ugh... 10 rep for rep cap, and the day has been slow :/

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Transcript for

Jun '1825

The Water Cooler

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