last day (1419 days later) » 

2:02 PM
ok kids, sit in a circle, uncle Mug is going to tell a story
/me lurks.
Room starred ;-)
2:04 PM
a long time ago, a high-profile Stack Overflow user went to Area51 and proposed to create a site where people could share their code and have it peer reviewed.
the site went through private beta, and made it to public beta
Harvey, right?
that was, uh (scratches head), 2011 kids.
the site was small, and never quite picked up. many people didn't even know of its existence
whoa you are really starting at the beginning aren't you Mugs?
2:07 PM
shouldn't it?
or should the room be renamed "CR: Origins"?
yeah. I just didn't know you were old enough to remember it? lol jk
I'm not. I'm about to skip almost 3 years...
Let me interrupt for a second...
That one starred message should be pinned.
2:09 PM
so, the site remained alive for a long, long while.
people would post their code, and sometimes they'd get a review
you should see if Loki or Winston are around to tell part of the story... no offense, but we didn't come along for a while
and the reviewers, sometimes would get a vote or two
user image
^^ spoiler
@rolfl shh!
2:10 PM
okay I will be quiet and listen
fast-forward to 2013. Jamal was already the most hyperactive editor, Malachi and Mug were stealing each others' checkmarks on C# questions.
by September, Mug (then known as @retailcoder) started to feel like this site could be so much more than what it was.
thought maybe we should make CR tees
Q: 1000 days in beta: let's make CR t-shirts

Mat's MugAs of 2013-09-05, Area 51 stats for CodeReview are as follows: Days in beta: 960. Questions per day: 19.4. Healthy at 15, need work at 5. Check. Answered Questions: 89%. Healthy at 90%. So we're anywhere between 88.5% and 89.4%: I'd love to see the actual decimals. I'm sure we can bring this m...

What a grand idea!
in the seekrit moderator-only chatroom, this meta sparked a little something - yes, activity in the mod room!
> should we be more proactive with beta status and pushing for graduation?
the "Code Review General Chatroom" became active around then, with Jamal, Malachi and Retailcoder saying hi and discussing the questions posted by the ever-so-slooooooow @StackExchange feed.
then Simon joined them, and shortly after, Monkey too.
wait, did I skip a part?
2:17 PM
The user-spawned election
The point were Jamal asked for a new moderator and became one himself?
right. Winston stepped down, and Jamal was informally "elected"
Oh lol... I thought that said "unfortunately" at first.
A: Code Review is in need of a new moderator

Jamalgulps Well, hello there everyone. I would like to nominate myself for the moderator position. Although I haven't yet been here for a year, I feel that I've accomplished so much in terms of keeping this site clean and helpful to others. Although I certainly don't need to be a moderator to keep...

2:20 PM
Only one downvote... Tsk tsk to whomever that was
so, we were answering as many incoming questions as we could, and there were many unanswered ones waiting for a review, too
then one fine morning of November, this happened:
Q: How is Code Review doing right now?

Grace NoteI’m Grace Note, a Community Manager at Stack Exchange. Normally for most sites we run a community site evaluation, as explained in this Meta Stack Overflow post under Public Beta sites. However, these reviews involve comparing our site content against searches on the internet for competing answer...

we knew voting was a problem. the answer I had gotten from my first meta post already said it, and truthfully.
Ooh, I sense a good part of the story approaching... quivers with excitement
I thought we needed to... shake things up.
Q: Call of Duty - We're on a mission

Mat's MugThis is a direct reply to Grace Note's recent CR review, more precisely the following part: (emphasis mine) Unanswered Tying in to all of the above is one of the most pressing concerns about the site I had in my own review, which is the gigantic pool of unanswered questions. There are, ...

and "zombies" was born
the "Code Review General Room" was renamed to "The 2nd Monitor" about a week (or two?) into the mission
Q: What should be the name of our main chatroom?

Mat's MugOur main chat room is currently called Code Review General Room, with "General discussion about Code Review." for a description. I propose The Zombie Hunters' Lounge, but I'd like the community to post their ideas here (1 per post, include why it's the best name), the one with the highest number...

more and more people joined chat
more and more people started spending their votes
more and more people started answering unanswered questions killing zombies
within 100 days, CR had gone from 88% to 95% answered
Q: 100 days later: what's up?

Mat's Mug November 15, 2013. 6:30AM UTC. Community Manager Grace Note posted How is Code Review doing right now?. We are 100+ days later. Rewind Since mid-November 2013, a number of things have happened: A fun tag was created on Meta-CR. CR users answered the Call of Duty; incoming, as well as m...

SEDE turned out being very helpful, and @rolfl and others cooked up a number of queries to analyze the site's activity and health
Q: Once upon a time in Stackland

Mat's Mug Uh question, why have you folks not graduated yet? - jul 13 at 21:18 by Undo It's been quite a while since the 100 days later update, which was posted around the 100th day after our last site review, which brings us back in November 2013. If a baby was conceived back then, that baby is prob...

I skipped the parts...
December 2013, we were all cranked-up and really into the killing zombies business
2:33 PM
@rolfl came up with a clever way to foster activity
and hats
but just before the hats
in The 2nd Monitor, Nov 30 '13 at 0:52, by rolfl
OK, weekend challenge.... we all solve the Rock Paper Scissors Lizzard Spock problem with our 'favourite' language, and we all have to post a question here with our solution to be reviewed.
and was born
for 4,5 ..6 weeks or so, we would vote on the next "challenge", and implement it over the weekend and put it up for review on the main site
then we took a break
Also, lots of pimping.
...and rebooted it at the end of January
Q: Weekend-Challenge Reboot

Mat's MugIn December 2013 we held a bunch of weekly weekend-challenge events, which was fun, and generated posts that made it to the site's newsletter, week after week. One may want to tweak this query so as to filter posts created before December 30th, 2013. Some weekend-challenge stats up to that date:...

...after we all voted on the "Best of Code Review 2013" stuff
Q: Best of Code Review 2013

Mat's MugAs this 3rd beta-year comes to an end, we would like to host an event: The Best of Code Review 2013. All Code Review users will be invited to nominate (link to) the best questions and answers from this year, and showcase them as examples of what great CR questions and answers should look like. ...

(@200_success' idea)
I think the zombie killing is not represented well enough in this history lesson.....
talk about April 2014
(the all-time low - 500-some zombies)
2:39 PM
That's like... right after I joined, right?
yeah. also when I was starting to get really bored at my old job ;-)
by then, activity had really picked up, the site had pretty much doubled in size.
I swear, some of those activity charts could make some really neat terrain generators.
2:41 PM
Boy do we miss konijn....
don't we!
he's still answering now and then, isn't he?
who's Konijn?
the zombie slayer
see that first drop in the light blue line
that's konjin in action
most decorated necromancer on site I think
150 zombies in about 2 months.... and additionally the normal incoming JS questions, too
Wow, 19 necromancer badges.
[badge:revival] x 157
a true hero
@Mat'sMug Hmm... not to be un-modest, but no.
2:44 PM
Oh wow. I only have revival * 40-something
@rolfl right. I'm including the revival count as well ;-)
carry on grandpa, I want to know how the story continues ;)
Odd, I have 40 revivals, and 23 necromancers.....
Not many revivals at all.
2:46 PM
so, Once upon a time in StackLand was July 2014.
Indeed. I think the part that Mat's is skipping is how he almost singlehandedly was the site cheerleader, motivator, and community hub for that period.
The "co-ordinator".
Also, the competition with PPCG ... ;-)
our moderators played a big part
oh yeah
Q: The race has started. Are you running?

Mat's MugPCG.SE is going on a mission. And so the race begins. For Code Review!! -- syb0rg 2 days ago Let's see: Programming Puzzles and Code Golf Voting & Activity PCG.SE Voting and Activity Chart Compare to: Code Review Voting & Activity CR.SE Voting and Activity Chart ...

Oh, the moderator issues over the Nov'13 through march'14 are important.
2:49 PM
Jamal pretty much had the whole quickly-growing site on his sole shoulders
so, by March, two new pro-tem moderators were appointed - enter @rolfl and 200_success
@Mat'sMug Jamalizing everything in sight and singlehandedly keeping the incoming crap at bay
and the mod room was never frozen ever after
@Mat'sMug I was about to say that ^^^^
The mod room was.... depressing. It's hard to say this without making the other mods seem unfit, but the site was changing a lot, and the other mods were not able to commit the time needed to make it work.
2:51 PM
That was after the Mission had started, right?
Correct. Jamal was the only one there, with no-one to talk to.
The other two mods were otherwise engaged.
starting spring 2014, CR had a dream team of moderators, and a quickly and healthily growing community
I want to be clear, though, that this is typical for most sites.
except on other sites it happens during the first year of public beta
Well, no. You look around other sites, astronomy, anime, ell, the others, all have a couple of mods who are no-shows.
2:53 PM
The difference is that Code Review is actually a lot more busy than those sites, and need the mod attention.
anyway, by July we were just about losing hopes about the site's graduation; Stack Exchange was silent, and for months we had been told we had to "keep doing what we were doing"
we refocused from voting, to user retention
Q: Hi! What brings you here today?

200_successOn 2013-11-15, we were given a review about our beta progress. On 2014-04-10, we also got some feedback from Stack Exchange Community Managers @GraceNote and @Pops. One of the concerns that was raised about the health of our community is that we have too many one-time contributors, and need more...

and at the end of the summer, the unexpected happened:
Q: Code Review Graduation

rolflI am pleased to announce that effective from September 22, Code Review has graduated! It has taken a bit of time for this announcement to filter through the red tape, so, today was the day we found out. Let's use this as a place to discuss, celebrate, and otherwise commiserate. Notes: Code Rev...

but despite the main-site "fireworks" annnouncement, and this meta post... we couldn't quite believe it.
Q: Code Review SE is graduating!

PopsMany of you have already seen announcements both on main and on meta announcing this site's graduation. At the request of a few of you who were skeptical (or perhaps merely in shocked disbelief), I'm here to confirm that yes, the Community Team has indeed decided that Code Review should graduate....

so a Community Manager stepped in
> I like helping people, and I like people who like helping people.
^^^ still true.
Pops is awesome
in July 2014 I was starting a new job, and my activity dropped quite a bit... I might have missed bits here and there
Q: Best of Code Review 2014

200_successAs 2014 comes to an end, let's kick off Best of Code Review 2014! All Code Review users will be invited to nominate (link to) the best questions and answers from this year, and showcase them as examples of what great CR questions and answers should look like. Prizes in the form of bounties will...

Q: 2014: What a ride!

Mat's MugHere we are, with another year [almost] behind us. 2014 has been very, very special on Code Review, and that has been completely because of you. 2014 was ...glittering. We've put Code Review on the Stack Exchange map; in 2015, we're entering the big league of full-grown, graduated sites. What e...

we reiterated the "Best Of"
and 200_success played Santa again, and payed the "santax" with his own rep score
Indeed. Another thing you are missing in this history lesson is the central part the 2nd monitor played.
3:03 PM
A: How to train your growing community to self-moderate?

Mat's MugHow active is your chatroom? This may sound like a weird answer, but on Code Review we managed to get a core nucleus into the main chatroom. With the @StackExchange bot posting questions (and ideally answers too), it's very easy for everyone to spot off-topic questions, and, with an answers feed...

The 2nd Monitor became a craddle for pretty much everything that landed on meta.CR
the chatroom cemented the community. people get addicted to that chatroom for some reason :)
It's pretty hard to not get addicted to it. :-D
we made ourselves a reputation for being a very nice and welcoming community; people sometimes left comments contrasting CR with SO.
our star-happiness became legend, too
that being said right now graduation is still far away...
but it's no longer in our hands
we've done great
all we need to do now is keep being awesome
I worry about the chat room.... I am not satisfied that it is as great as it "used to be". It's still "good", but it could be better.
3:11 PM
which is the same old mantra as it was a year ago
@rolfl the 2nd monitor?
yeah, well... fast-forward into 2015...
I sound like an old fart complaining about kids these days ... ;-)
except, kids these days....
Q: How much idle chatter do we tolerate in The 2nd Monitor?

MastRelated but not a duplicate: How far off-topic can we get in 'the 2nd monitor'? Today was a complicated day in the history of The 2nd Monitor. On one side there appears to be consensus something went wrong which should be handled. On the other side there appears to be disagreement about how muc...

the room sort of became a victim of its success
3:13 PM
Oh, right... hides
'nuf said ;-)
so, mid-2015, CR chat was "fractured" and a number of new rooms were created
That was partially mostly my fault.
actually it started a little before that
the fracturing set in with the rise of Duga, Cardshifter and RubberDuck
RubberDuck (with a big "D") and myself were working on Rubberduck (with a small "d"), and used a new "VBA" chatroom to avoid spamming the 2nd monitor with our stuff. Cardshifter guys did the same.
@Simon's contributions are tremendous
Duga has revolutionized #EducateSO and dramatically helped increasing CR awareness across SE
then this happened:
Q: Graduation update: it's election season!

PopsI'll start off by addressing the elephant in the room. It's been the better part of a year since the announcement that Code Review was graduating. In all those months, there haven't been any visible indications of change from us on the team. There are a few reasons for that, but they all come dow...

@Mat'sMug In my opinion that was the right thing to have happen, unfortunately, it meant that a number of th core community members were no longer as active in the main chat room
3:21 PM
@rolfl yeah. as I said:
> As a lurking room owner (hasn't always been that way), I feel like I've contributed to the incremental climate change by my inactions, and I'm sorry I let moderators and other owners do the dirty work.
I did not mean my comment that way, what I meant is to reinforce the comment earlier.... :
in the end, the right things have happened: The Nth Monitor was a great idea - it should only have happened before. but what's done is done
9 mins ago, by Mat's Mug
the room sort of became a victim of its success
and so here we are, 2 months (already?) after the elections; dust settled, blood stains are gone, and we've hidden the bodies.
And things are going well? I have missed much of it since elections ;-)
Has Pops gotten back to you on a 5th mod?
3:26 PM
@janos Should be our #5 mod.
There was a request for a 5th mod?
@Zak @rolfl can probably tell you more about it than I can
him and 200 really lobbied hard to have a 5th position opened for the elections
@Zak 200_success almost didn't run because the CMs only agreed to 4 positions
When elections were announced the three pro-tem mods all asked for there to be 5 new moderators positions in the elections. It is/was our assessment that the site activity was more than three mods could handle in the expected time-commitments for a moderator (about a half-hour per day).
3:29 PM
@rolfl I figure that's still true
@rolfl wut? 30 minutes /day??
and I am fairly sure our mods do at least thrice as much
Since we were all puting in more than our expected time, we thought about 5 mods would be the right point, and that would also allow mods to take some time off (we were/are all burning out.... I did burn out).
The CM's conceded to 4 positions (they wanted to keep with 3).
sidenote: SO mods have a mandatory time of 1h / day, because of the huge flag-volume
3:31 PM
and they're 18
Code Review is the first site to graduate with a 4-position election. No other beta site has elected a 4th position, except Christianity, which had 4 pro-tem mods for some reason.
well... that site is special.
A 5th position was stated to be too much.
no other beta ever had a preliminary election round either.. right?
3:32 PM
as are all religion Se sites..
@rolfl Understandable, much like the Christianity Wikipedia page, it gets a disproportionate amount of controversy
The concession the CM's made, was that in the months after the elections they would poll the existing mods to see whether the workload is too much, and whether a 5th should be added.
@Mat'sMug No, no other beta site.
Sorry, misunderstood the question.
Didn't Network Engineering get their graduation announcement after ours?
3:34 PM
yes, and their elections before ours.
and a design..
Which seems totally not right in my book.
the whole "who gets what when" is a bit of a controversy IMO
controversy is a nice word. I like the word "farce".
right.. back to history, ranting about SE goes to the whining room

 Whining Room

This room is for whining in. All manner of QQ will be tolerated.
3:35 PM
Well, it's an important part of the history.... a significant part of my time since march 2014 has been in trying to manage the expectations and process related to site graduation.
it's frozen, though
Stop whining.
@rolfl iow. keeping the hounds in check without knowing when they'd get their steak
Or trying to get the CM's to commit to something, and then holding them to that commitment.
3:37 PM
@rolfl indeed - and with "our side" of the efforts for graduating being behind us, I think 2015 is going to be less "exhausting" for CR mods
is there a list of the daily pun & site-stat you did?
it's in a mod-only room that can't be quoted from
The bottom line is that the code design of the stack system is heavily tied to the graphic design, for reasons that make little technical sense. As a result, the people who do the graphic design are the ones that are the key bottleneck on graduation. As it happens, there's just one designer, and that designer is thus the person who decides what site graduates next.
not fully accurate anymore, but yea that's about the problem
At times their commitment is steered by "management" to satisfy commercial or strategic interests (, some of the commercially-related stack sites like craft cms, and drupal, expressionengine, sharepoint, etc. The strategic things are the language-based overflows (portugese, russian, and japanese stackoverflow), etc.
3:41 PM
so here we are. we created something awesome, and we're proud of it. and it will culminate with a new design... in 6-8 weeks.
Additionally there has been a strategic/technical change for many sites to accomodate new login sytems, and also SVG designs for mobile, etc..
This has not left much time for beta-site graduation designs.
@rolfl and Stack Eggs
Oh, and hats too.
nope, AFAIK hat designs are outsourced
Wait... Is the story still going?
3:45 PM
I'm done. questions? :)
Well, I want to show some stats..... to put Code Review in context.....
If you look at some of the more significant badges, and see how many have been earned, and then compare that to other sites, how does Code Review compare?
We even had legendaries before elections
Yes. The only beta site ever.
badges:… Code Review ranks #20 of 147
@Mat'sMug is there more info on the olden days?
the 2nd Monitor transcript for 2011-2013 is pretty revealing ;-)
3:48 PM
I think the scope-changes we pushed through in early 2014 are important.
what are Legendaries?
we strengthened the site's scope, enforced clearer rules
@Zak People who have earned more than 200 rep on 150 or more days
@Zak mortarboard times 150
3:49 PM
ah, klkl
@Zak [badge:legendary] - earn 200 rep too many days to be considered a normal mortal human
There's a gold badge for that.
I am miffed about there not being a platimum version of fanatic ;-)
also, the idle chat meta was really useful. Could we reference that more often whenever the 2nd goes too far off-topic?
it's Janos and Rolfl, for the record
@Zak you are a grown up member of the community
@Zak of course!
3:50 PM
by all means if you think it should be mentioned, JUST DO IT!!!!
and don't hesitate to ping room owners (italic names) and mods (blue names) when things go awry
^ that
I'm just thinking aloud, it's the kind of thing I could've done with being shown when I first started hanging out in the 2nd :)
@Zak Yeah, me too. Unfortunately, it looks like not as many people are there, otherwise I'd hang there more.
well technically I'm working right now
bbl, gotta get at least a few things done :)
4:04 PM
@IntensifierDescriptorMan you do get some quiet periods, but I find there's usually enough people that it's worth just leaving it open
4:27 PM
Can we name this "The official Codereview Chronicles?"
sure it official?
room topic changed to CR Chronicles: About CR's revival, The Mission, zombies, graduation, etc. (no tags)
I like it
@Mat'sMug make me RO? and probably Jamal and Rolf too?
@Mat'sMug we you just made it
5:00 PM
I think this sort of officially means we are also the first beta site to get a history-channel.
5:20 PM
Somewhere to point CR history enthusiasts to :-)
Although it will probably freeze before long
@Mat'sMug then there might be a moderator or two around that can unfreeze it. Otherwise, we could point to this place.
So, now Simon is around as well. Questions?
5:39 PM
room topic changed to CR Chronicles: About CR's revival, The Mission, zombies, graduation, etc. [graduation] [meta-meta] [revival] [zombies]
If we reach 1950 days of beta, I'll take the remaining 50 to write a book about the history of CR.
There is so much material on meta to reference.
Thanks to Mat and all other old farts for taking the time to teach us!
6:05 PM
6:15 PM
@200_success feel free to add your POV - you were around during the "Great Darkness" :-)
I think that that was a faithful narrative. I would add that "then graduation was announced" and "then we held elections" glosses over a lot of negotiation that happened behind the scenes.
rolfl basically sacrificed himself to get us our first elections, in two ways.
which two ways?
First, by nagging the community managers and staff frequently, not getting much results, and getting frustrated / burned out.
So, for that (and personal reasons), he resigned.
The community managers were going to nominate his replacement, but we lobbied to have a proper election instead.
I never knew this
6:25 PM
I wonder who they had in mind...
(irrelevant now)
Same with "then graduation was announced". Nothing was ever handed to us on a platter.
I have yet to get to that part of the mod room transcript
We don't normally share details of these communications, but if we're going to have the Official CR Chronicles, then it deserves to be told properly.
6:39 PM
And of-course, when they offered us partial graduation, we turned them down.
A: Would you like to test design-independent graduation?

200_successPops, Community Managers, and Stack Exchange management. It's Saturday, so I don't know if you're on duty, but I want to make sure you see this before you pull the trigger on Monday. Currently, the votes are: Yea: +17-4 = 13 Nea: +10-5 = 5 However, the votes on the explanations tell a more ...

@Mast more like tried to bribe us for a brief moment of silence?
In short, a number of factors played in to my decision. My personal non site-related reasons were certainly enough (I was expecting a few months of required low-participation anyway - my parents immigrating, needing to set up their house, having them stay with me, holidays out of country, increased work responsibility.
Site related reasons for stepping down were relatively obvious too, I was over committed, I was also burning bridges with the CMs, and I was no longer the best person to be the 'champion' of the site's community. Instead of having friendly discussions about site issues, the conversations were getting strained..... mostly because of graduation progress issues (and the lack of progress).
In short, it was no longer much fun for me.
The Network Engineering graduation also frustrated the heck out of me, and also gave me the idea that a forced election would possibly trigger a full graduation. It is no coincidence that I notified the CM staff of my intention to step down after the Network Engineering process.
A: Can we have a third moderator again?

Robert CartainoWe are aware of the shortfall, but rather than simply appointing another Pro Tem, we decided it was time to have a full community election! That is the first step following graduation — Congratulations! You're about to graduate. As a pleasant surprise, we managed to get your site design finished...

and then.....
Q: Congratulations! You're about to graduate... with a twist

Robert CartainoI wanted to pass on the announcement that this site has been cleared for graduation… congratulations! Graduation comes with it some perks — a listing in the footer of the other sites, you can start migrating content to and from this site, we have things like "community promotional ads" which are...

A graduation without a design, but, then, surprise!!!!!!
Q: Network Engineering site design (UPDATED)

Kurtis BeaversI’m Kurtis, senior product designer at Stack Exchange. First, I wanted to congratulate you because this site is now starting the process of moving out of beta to become a fully-graduated site! Well done! Graduation and Your Site Design Graduation comes with a few perks. We have already started ...

Design announced before the actual elections........
@rolfl huh.. I thought a queue (as in design queue) was a first-in, first-out data structure...
@Mat'sMug nope
Q: Tracking Graduation Progress

rolfl Moderator Note: This question has been identified a number of times as being a candidate for migration to Meta.SE - the main meta site. This question is really about tracking Code Review's 'probable' spot in line, and is not a general purpose all-beta-site tracking system, thou...

Nope, it seems that a "you're good to graduate" and "here's your design" can be done in 2 weeks.
6:52 PM
Eh... nuf said
It was a long shot, but I thought an election could also perhaps trigger a design too....
look at Chemistry and Biology, and Network Engineering and Movies
Let's remember that this is CR Chronicles and not Chemistry / Network Engineering Chronicles.
@rolfl thank you for trying
Meh @Malachi , I am a give-it-all-for-a-time type person.
I orignially signed up as a mod with the understanding that at the 1year anniversary I would re-evaluate things. I did, and in late march I was expecting to hand things over to someone else.
6:56 PM
Biology and Network engineering ran through all 4 steps in less than 6 months if you look at these 2 answers
A: Tracking Graduation Progress

CodesInChaosBiology Announcement: 2015-03-25 (not sure if this counts) Design Meta: 2015-05-13 Colors: 2015-05-20 Election: 2015-06-07

A: Tracking Graduation Progress

RaphaelNetwork Engineering Special Note: Network engineering is/was identified for a pilot program for rapid promotion, without a design, though, then something changed, and the promotion is now happening with a design. Announcement: 2015-03-18 Design Meta: 2015-04-30 Colors: 2015-06-23 Election:...

@rolfl it is much appreciated
So, I am disappointed that CR never got the full treatment, but I am content that it is now in the hands of the best people for the site.
And, I am very satisfied with my decision to step down, and it is also a good thing for the site that I did.
7:17 PM
"Graduation will work exactly the same in every other way, but we don't yet have an ETA for when your design will be finished."
"We felt it unreasonable to continue holding you back while we catch up on that backlog, so we're going for it!"
I have a whole new appreciate for how the old timers must feel about our treatment
3 hours later…
10:19 PM
@Zak It just makes me feel sick that somehow we don't deserve a proper graduation while all these other sites who got their announcements later than is somehow deserve a full graduation before us.

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