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vzn
2:33 AM
fastest gun in the west
 
 
12 hours later…
3:00 PM
@Raphael hi :D
heh I miss being active :/
 
vzn
3:13 PM
active in chat worth something wink
 
 
2 hours later…
5:19 PM
@RealzSlaw The point being, if Yuval did not answer within minutes, others might within hours. ;)
 
@Raphael I understood
 
vzn
rs: wanna hear any more sketch of "SAT induction"?
there is an example wrt factoring
 
sure
 
vzn
cool.
ok...
imagine instances of factoring->SAT as formulas as different factoring sizes.
lets say the subscript f_n, "n" is the "width" of the instance.
so eg f_12 could factor a 12 bit number etc.
now the idea is something like this.
lay out/generate f_1, f_2, f_3, ... SAT instances.
then "reverse engineer".
a machine-learning like algorithm would then attempt to look at the f_n, compare them.
it would attempt to find a "consistent" relation between f_n, f_{n+1}.
 
5:34 PM
why would machine learning beat a human though
there is a consistent relationship
you can see it
but you can't factor them still, as a human
 
vzn
right. factoring is not as hard as more difficult uses of SAT induction.
 
but you can't solve EVEN with knowing the relationship
 
vzn
the SAT induction algorithm could theoretically discover a recursive algorithm for factoring.
it would find a way to solve f_n in terms of f_{n-1}.
 
ah I see what you mean
 
vzn
it is tricky. not saying this is trivial. it is all quite nontrivial.
depending on the complexity of the relation it finds between f_n and f_{n-1}, that would affect the complexity of the algorithm.
 
5:37 PM
yes, at this point, the "machine learning" algorithm is the weakness then
 
vzn
finding an efficient algorithm in this framework seems to reduce to:
finding the "tightest" or "most optimized" relation between f_n and f_{n-1}.
 
heh
kolmogrov complexity
 
vzn
you say a human could discover this relation, "see it". could a ML algorithm? that is the big question.
 
that is what marcus hutter uses for AIXI
 
vzn
many yrs ago, did create this algorithm for factoring. dont know if anyone else has paid much attn to that.
 
5:38 PM
I misunderstood what you were suggesting when I said that
 
vzn
there is some concept of compression, but compression in the sense of circuits that compute fns.
 
compression == intelligence according to hutter
Marcus Hutter (born 1967) is a German computer scientist and professor at the Australian National University. Hutter was born and educated in Munich, where he studied physics and computer science at the Technical University of Munich. In 2000 he joined Jürgen Schmidhuber's group at the Swiss Artificial Intelligence lab IDSIA, where he developed the first mathematical theory of optimal Universal Artificial Intelligence, based on Kolmogorov complexity and Ray Solomonoff's theory of universal inductive inference. In 2006 he also accepted a professorship at the Australian National University...
 
vzn
there does seem some connection.
yeah we chatted about him quite awhile ago.
he funds the hutter prize etc.
 
yes
 
vzn
mentioned loebner in contrast at the time.
personally, do think of a lot of complexity theory in terms of compression.
for example P=?NP seems to relate to circuits, and how circuits can compress computation/fns.
ever mention this q before? was musing on it awhile back. compression vs complexity class separations
6
Q: compression of a Turing machine run sequence

vznconsider a Turing machine with a set of states $s_n$ and alphabet symbols $a_n$. now consider a "run sequence" generated from a starting input in the following sense. the run sequence is defined as the sequence of state-symbol pairs that ensue in the computation. call the $i$th ensuing state $s'_...

not surprisingly the answer cites kolmogorov fn K(x)
btw am interested in funding open sci with bitcoin. whaddya think?
 
5:44 PM
heh
sure
who has the bitcoin :D
 
vzn
yeah exactly. (satoshi nakamoto?) :p
there are some kickstarter-like bitcoin analogs
 
sure
 
vzn
14
Q: Is there a crowdfunding site for Bitcoin?

michelemarconDoes a crowdfunding site like kickstarter.com exist, which accepts bitcoins instead of dollars?

dude, have 1 q for you ... or maybe already asked this.
you use a pseudonym. so why the concern about googling stuff in chat rooms?
 
it is not an anonymous pseudonym
it can be easily connected to me heh
 
vzn
"it" seems so, it has very little info associated with it
 
5:47 PM
also I just don't want the content to be googlable
trust me, I can dox myself :D
 
vzn
ah yes the doxing thing
a new verb neologism invented by hackers
 
not hackers
most doxers are kiddies
anyone + google can be doxing
 
vzn
ok
funky
mentions hackers specifically :p
 
/sigh
there is no hacking involved 99% of the time
EOS
 
vzn
EOS?
 
5:51 PM
end of story
 
vzn
ok
 
you can link me 1000 other sites, I wouldn't care
 
vzn
RJL has cranked out 2 blogs already in only a few days, another wonder
 
lol
 
vzn
told friend about you & your smarts, the friend wonders why you left college
 
5:54 PM
complicated
 
vzn
told friend, colleges are $$$ these days
 
heh yes
 
vzn
youre in US?
 
yes
 
vzn
NY?
 
5:55 PM
yeah
 
vzn
NYC cool. visited ~3 times.
 
heh ok
 
vzn
what do you think of satoshi nakamoto "outing"
 
I felt bad for the poor guy, then felt bad for the poor reporter
 
vzn
yeah
 
6:22 PM
@vzn pretty sure i finally figured out how to encode factoring into SAT with a linearithmic blowup
and practical
i.e better than karatsuba or somesuch
which has been my hobby for two years :D
and this is during research for something else :D
 
vzn
6:34 PM
sounds significant
 
maybe
I'll have to actually try it
 
vzn
think factoring->SAT not very well explored given its significance. felt that way 2decades ago also :\
 
well it is explored naturally
because every circuit is basically SAT
so if you try to figure out why the circuit is hard to reverse
 
vzn
think about it like this
 
you are essentially doing research on why the SAT is hard to reverse
 
vzn
6:37 PM
arithmetic/math approaches are a specialized/maybe narrow subset of all operations that analyze circuits.
that is also the idea behind "SAT induction"...
think big data/graph based approaches may yield new general analysis methods.
 
nah big graph is usually inexact stuff
 
vzn
found a large SAT masters thesis that tends to support this & go in that direction.
 
statistical
it doesn't apply IMO
 
vzn
SAT circuits are big graphs. etc.
 
they are
 
vzn
6:38 PM
it doesnt apply yet wink
 
but you are seeking exact answers
 
vzn
true.
 
the entire point of big data is to relax the exactness to get useful overall ideas about teh data
 
vzn
think some big data approaches will yield exact answers
true much big data approaches are statistical.
but the relaxation of the factoring->SAT graph may yield insight into exact structures.
& other graphs related to deep math problems etc.
RJL latest blog shows deep links between eg hamming coding theory & prime distributions etc
admit its still all very sketchy.
its a very longterm research program :\
decades, possibly.
 
mmm
 
vzn
6:42 PM
forgot to cite hilberts 10th problem on RJLs blog wrt that hamming coding post, oops.
hilberts 10th problem over century old & basically still being explored.
with new insight.
one of the greatest problems of the 20th century but still leaking into the 21st...
 
 
2 hours later…
9:23 PM
Question: How can we show that there cannot be an heap with amoritzed O(1) insert/delete-min/get-min without using reduction to sorting?
 

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