Language Overflow

AIQ

00:07

> Strong preference will be given to applicants who are Black, Indigenous, or People of Colour (BIPOC); Peoples with diverse gender identities or expressions; and/or, People with disabilities.

???

Eddie Kal

00:30

What about it?

AIQ

Isn't this discrimination? It clearly is.

Eddie Kal

@AIQ Have you heard of affirmative action?

AIQ

I mean, you can say you will give equal opportunity to all to get the job, but to give preference to someone based on their race and gender identity seems a bit discriminatory ...

No haven't heard of that ...

Eddie Kal

>The equality section of the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms explicitly permits affirmative action type legislation, although the Charter does not require legislation that gives preferential treatment. Subsection 2 of Section 15 states that the equality provisions do "not preclude any law, program or activity that has as its object the amelioration of conditions of disadvantaged individuals or groups including those that are disadvantaged because of race, national or ethnic origin, colour, religion, sex, age or mental or physical disability".

@AIQ This argument has been long used against affirmative action

AIQ

Ok thanks for this ...

I mean I am what? a minority, yes, because I am brown ... but still seems weird

Eddie Kal

00:35

Affirmative action is not discrimination. It is a visible hand (borrowing an economics term) that corrects existing historical and societal biases. We can't go back in history to change things, but we can give some socially disadvantaged and underprivileged groups favorable consideration to make sure future generations are more economically equal

AIQ

It is discrimination - you could say with a positive over-all outcome that is ... if two candidates have similar qualifications, and you pick one particularly based on their race then that is discrimination against the other person ...

Eddie Kal

@AIQ I don't know about Canada, but some Asian groups in the US are stoutly against affirmative action and I understand why

AIQ

Even though many people would agree I guess that this is a way to balance the discrimination of the past ...

I don't want a job because I am of colour!

Eddie Kal

@AIQ Sure, in that context.

Let's use gender as an example

Affirmative action has to some extent benefited victims of gender-based discrimination

If a woman applies to a job, and her competitors are all male. Some of them perform equally well in the interview and tests, but she is selected because she is a woman

Do you think that is unfair?

AIQ

But where is the line? How do you ensure that the outcome at present is balanced and is not going the other direction, disadvantaging some men

Eddie Kal

00:44

So your answer to my question is that is unfair, right?

AIQ

That is a hard question to answer! I don't want to say it is unfair, but I also don't want to say it is fair ...

Eddie Kal

Fair. Then let's think what will happen next

AIQ

What if the women grew up in the right side of the world? What if she is American, and one of the other equally qualified guy is from, say, Vietnam?

Eddie Kal

This woman gets the job, gets her own desk in the office. After several months, she realizes she has been assigned mostly report-writing tasks (let's say this is a generic office job)

AIQ

Do you still think the woman in that case deserves the job because of past discrimination against women? What about the lives of the poor and destitute on the wrong side of the world?

Eddie Kal

00:47

And although the recruiter told her it was a job that demanded calculation as well as writing, she seems to be getting all the writing and not a lot of calculating

AIQ

Okay wait you go first ...

Eddie Kal

At the same time some calculation work has been going to a male colleague who's been around longer, so it makes that male colleague gets paid more than her, not to mention that man is tasked with both calculation and writing.

So there is no basis within the company on which we can compare this woman's salary

But let's zoom out. In the entire industry, in the country, let's say we find all women and men with similar jobs

That is what sociologists and economists do (you are an economist, you surely know this). Then what do the data tell us?

americanprogress.org/issues/women/reports/2020/03/24/482141/…

aauw.org/resources/research/simple-truth

On a national or a global level, women are getting paid outrageously and scandalizingly less

So in the grand scheme of things, that job offer, the one that landed that woman a job over other equally competent men, only helps the disadvantaged group a teeny tiny bit

Even after she gets in, it is more likely than not (statistically) she gets stereotyped and gets all the woman job

AIQ

But discrimination is just one reason (out of let's say 4) for the wage gap.

Eddie Kal

And she gets paid less than a man who would have taken her place

@AIQ And the rest are?

@AIQ That's a fair point. That's why I only look at one factor in this example. It's just to illustrate a point

AIQ

There are other ways to close the gap - which wouldn't require employers to discriminate between genders ...

Eddie Kal

00:55

@AIQ Like?

AIQ

@EddieKal This isn't correct. At the high level, women/men get paid the same wage. For example, the salaries for all employees in the BC public service is listed on their website ... and I doubt there is a wide gap between a male policy analyst and a female policy analyst

the discrimination argument holds true for most relatively low paid jobs ... not sure if that is equally true for high paid jobs - professors? Economists? Scientists?

Eddie Kal

@AIQ Yeah, thanks to decades of awareness and active correction, I think

AIQ

@EddieKal Pay men and women equally! That has to do with the rate, not the positions ...

Eddie Kal

@AIQ There are still more male professors than female professors in any country

jstor.org/stable/1318580

This piece talks about perception

Gender is only one of the factors

AIQ

I worked my ass off to get to this side of the world ... I am going against people who have not one but two luxurious houses here, a boat, a car, a dog. Good schooling, and social life. I would want a level playing field. I would want to compete based on qualifications, than see a fully economically stable woman get the job because she is ... a woman.

Eddie Kal

01:04

@AIQ That is totally understandable. And you are absolutely right the playing field is not level, even with affirmative action. And I would agree in some situations AA could make it worse

For you to be on a level playing field the first thing is they would also need to remove any restriction that's on you

You are already disadvantaged as a "foreigner"

AIQ

@EddieKal Family/children, hours worked, industry, type of job, etc.

Eddie Kal

AA protects some people but also leaves out a lot of other people

@AIQ I fully understand that in some situations AA as it stands in most countries might hurt your chances rather than help you

AIQ

There are some work that men are better at, and some that women are better at. There are too many of the former. Producing more of the latter is one way to shrink the wage gap. But that means bringing jobs specifically for women - which is fine.

I am happy to see a job that says "Only women will be considered." But I don't want to see "Open to all. Strong preference to ..." - This makes no sense. If the idea is to close the gap, make jobs specifically for women, give them more money. But don't tell me I am qualified for a job, don't tell me to apply for it, and then tell me you will strongly prefer someone else ...

I understand about the struggle of women. I come from a place where the country's prime ministers have all been women since 1971!

Eddie Kal

It is a good thing they tell you. Otherwise you are applying in the dark

AIQ

That is women empowerment!

@EddieKal Can't argue with that!

Eddie Kal

01:13

@AIQ But that is just a token, a gesture. Those tokens and gestures are nice, but we need more

AIQ

I haven't done much research into the wage gap thing here in Canada, so I won't argue on that anymore than what I have done using my limited knowledge

Eddie Kal

Equality doesn't mean we give this job to that person. We make an African American man POTUS, or we put a woman in the office of prime minister

I think it means more

AIQ

The argument for giving them more opportunity is certainly fair - I know - from an economic and social perspective. But again, this also leaves many people behind - who otherwise are deserving

Eddie Kal

That I agree

A lot of Indian, Chinese and European immigrants in the U.S. are against affirmative action

I think one possible solution is to include them in it

AIQ

It is very important to not lose sight of the distinction between equality of outcome and equality of opportunity ... sometimes they bleed in ...

@EddieKal They are in it! They are minorities. So am I.

Eddie Kal

01:20

@AIQ White Europeans are not considered minorities

AIQ

@EddieKal Oh yeah I mean the first two ...

Eddie Kal

And another thing is "minority" criteria are usually left to the discretion of the recruiters

So at the elite schools, be it private elementary/high schools or colleges, recruiters do not really consider some populations minorities even though they should be

In some rich California cities, recruiters will turn away Asian kids because there have been a lot of Asian students enrolled

That turns people against AA

Although in fact that is the result of not practicing AA or not practicing AA properly

Eastern Europeans are also left out of this and feel disadvantaged by AA

AIQ

Oh shit Boston lost ...

Eddie Kal

B ball?

AIQ

I mean now it makes me wonder if I got in to my master's program because I deserved it or because ... I am of colour? Damn ...

@EddieKal Yesss

Eddie Kal

01:33

@AIQ No I think you should wonder if much more people from your country or your region should have been offered similar opportunities

@AIQ OK I don't really watch basketball. I am an irregular baseball fan

AIQ

@EddieKal Talented ones? Sure. But I have also seen a lot of people from my country who got to come here just because their parents had money to send them abroad ... I had to work for a year and a half after my bachelors to save up money for "application fees"

A $150 application fee was equivalent to 40% of my monthly income ... he he

My gf was struggling and still is struggling to find good work because her English isn't good enough

Eddie Kal

@AIQ I really hope things go smoothly for her, and for you too

Does she still live in the NY area?

AIQ

NYC ...

Eddie Kal

NYC might be better for her than other places in the US

A lot of people are more understanding and more inclined to understand

AIQ

She found a marketing job which is even harder because you know - you need the charisma or whatever they call it ... the brightness/glow/positivity or sth ...

Eddie Kal

01:46

How is the job treating her so far?

AIQ

@EddieKal Really? I didn't know that ... I know life and work is very fast paced there

Eddie Kal

@AIQ Sizable immigrant communities all over the city in NYC. Ofc if you work on Wall Street things do get hectic and a lot of people in finance are pretty much like what you'd expect: heartless a-holes

But in general the city is diverse enough that you'd always be able to find nice people to be around

I have never lived in NYC for any significant period of time, but I've been there many times

M.A.R.

23:24

@EddieKal two wrongs don't make a right

This widens the gap, instills mistrust, and still doesn't fix the bird shit on the windscreen we're trying to scrub with dry cloth

@EddieKal I'd think a big part of this is because of blind positive discrimination

You can't make people be nicer. That's morally authoritarian

So the supervisor is still an arsehole. They've been made to put up with women, but that won't change their most probably misguided opinion that women are inferior at job X.

The best way to change his mind would be showing him how skillful she really is. Affirmative discrimination removes that opportunity by default.

Scratch that, positive discrimination is not dry cloth, it's HF. It'd eat through the windshield and the bird crap would still be there.

@AIQ did you get the darn job or not?!

Eddie Kal

23:55

@M.A.R. As if you needed to instill mistrust

@M.A.R. No, a better way is fire him and replace him with a her or him or them who is not an asshole

That's not the best way, but at least a better way

Would you want to show how good a person you are to Trump to make him like you?

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