Language Overflow

Anonymous

00:03

Japanese. It's a thirty-year-old dictionary of English linguistics, written in Japanese.

user227867

Wow wow. I bet you are a linguist in real life. Maybe a famous one.

user227867

The strange thing about this chat is that although it moves slowly, it still moves.

ColleenV

@snailplane It sounds neat. I started to learn a little Japanese from a co-worker, and then our start-up ran into problems and never got going again.

user227867

I recommend using Assimil to learn Japanese. It's a little expensive though.

user227867

I wonder who Colleen I,II,III,IV are...

Anonymous

00:21

@JasperLoy Thank you for the recommendation :-)

Anonymous

@ColleenV I started learning Japanese about eighteen years ago.

user227867

I started watching Japanese dramas eighteen years ago.

user227867

My favourite ones are Heaven's Coins I,II.

user227867

Starring Noriko Sakai who also sings the theme songs.

user227867

Japanese dramas are way better than Korean or Chinese ones.

user227867

00:26

My favourite Japanese mathematicians are Shoshichi Kobayashi, Katsui Nomizu and Takashi Sakai, LOL.

Anonymous

00:41

I don't know enough about Japanese mathematicians to have a favorite.

CowperKettle

01:01

Congratulations on your election!

Anonymous

Thank you :-)

Anonymous

@CowperKettle The romanization of Екатеринбу́рг came up today in ELL chat!

Anonymous

Specifically, romanizing 'Е' as 'Ye' or 'E'.

Anonymous

I don't know much about it, but I assume that it's because of the pronunciation.

CowperKettle

02:35

@snailplane It is written either way, but I prefer Yekaterinburg (0:

Because the initial letter is pronounced differently from "e" in the middle of the word

ru.forvo.com/word/…

Some call it "Yo-burg"

Ёбург

Nihilist_Frost

03:01

whoops

vocaroo.com/i/s1ET2GDsWga0

can anyone IPA this?

(that's my voice)

Anonymous

03:30

@CowperKettle Oh, I'll remember that :-)

DEAD

04:57

Congratulations to you both. And especially to @snailplane, who, when he was merely a snailboat was always kind, courteous, and helpful. Now that he's gained his moderator wings and become a snailplane, may he _ _ _ _ ... well you can guess that metaphor ... :)) — Howard Pautz 4 hours ago

I guess the metaphor is about gender change. .__.

Anonymous

05:39

@DEAD It's okay, I'm used to people on Stack Exchange assuming I'm male. It's slightly awkward, but eh. :-)

user227867

All snails are male.

Anonymous

False!

Anonymous

Apple snails, for example, are gonochoristic.

Avicenna

I am assumed as male too. It's because of my name. :-)

Look what I found!

2

Q: Sun and moon: male or female?

In other languages, the sun and the moon have definite genders: in French and many other romanic languages le soleil (the sun) is male and la lune (the moon) is female. In German and other germanic languages die Sonne is female and der Mond is male. What is the `poetic' gender of the sun and th...

Someone had the same question I had.

Cardinal

In Persian, I saw girls with the name of "khorshid" which is the Persian word of "sun"

Avicenna

05:48

Yes, in Persion sun is personified as female.

BTW, morning @Cardinal!

Cardinal

Hi, Avecienna and Morning

DEAD

@Avicenna Grammatical genders (ﾉ＾◡＾)ﾉ︵ ┻━┻

CowperKettle

07:13

From today's joke thread in Yekaterinburg city webforum

> Mere hours are left till the end of the summer. I can already hear Yuri Schevchuck putting strings on his guitar.

2

Yuri Shevchuk is the guy who sings about Autumn in the video clip I posted 12 hours ago.

The clip appeared in 1993, and still everyone's association with autumn is that song.

Yuri Shevchuk

Yuri Yulianovich Shevchuk (Russian: Ю́рий Юлиа́нович Шевчу́к; born 16 May 1957, Yagodnoye, Magadan Oblast) is a Soviet and Russian singer/songwriter who leads the rock band DDT, which he founded with Vladimir Sigachev in 1980. Shevchuk was born in Yagodnoye in Magadan Oblast and raised in Ufa, Bashkir ASSR, though he now resides in St. Petersburg, Russia. Shevchuk was an art teacher before founding DDT. He is best known for his distinctive gravelly voice. His lyrics detail aspects of Russian life with a wry, humanistic sense of humor. He is also very famous for openly opposing pop music. He is...

Damkerng T.

DDT!

DDT (the pesticide) is dangerous!

CowperKettle

Yes, it's called after the chemical

> Named after the pesticide DDT, they are one of the better known and most prolific Russian bands of the late 20th and early 21st centuries.

> On March 3, 2008, DDT performed at the Dissenters' March in St. Petersburg to protest the controversial election of Dmitry Medvedev as President of Russia. Subsequently, in May 2010 Shevchuk received considerable media attention following a pointed dialogue with Prime Minister Vladimir Putin in which he openly confronted him (on state television) with questions regarding such controversial topics as democracy, freedom of speech, assembly, and freedom of the press in Russia.

Putin pretended not to recognize Shevchuk

So Shevchuk said, "I'm Yura Shevchuk, a musician", which made people laugh.

Because he is known by everyone.

It's as if Obama pretended not to recognize Bob Dylan

During a press-conference

Damkerng T.

07:29

@CowperKettle :)

DEAD

@DamkerngT. And cool

Damkerng T.

o/

DEAD

\o

Damkerng T.

BTW-comment, I think you should say either "is not improved" or "does not improve". — Cardinal 1 hour ago

@Cardinal someone's health is improving is fine.

DEAD

07:53

Whoever says 'we was wondering'?

It's also from someone who's apparently building a site based in the UK

Damkerng T.

@DEAD In a post somewhere on our site?

DEAD

In a post on SO.

Damkerng T.

Ahh

user227867

08:47

ELL is now my favourite SE site, even though I got 7 downvotes, LOL.

user227867

@snailplane I am now thinking of getting the full Collins English/German/French/Italian/Spanish dictionaries, but that is quite a lot of money!

user227867

I like the title of this room, Language Overflow. Let this room overflow with languages from all over the world!

Cardinal

@DamkerngT. I see, but original post said "is not improve"

V.V.

09:16

Hi, Cardinal. @DamkerngT., tnanks for the article. It's great

Damkerng T.

@JasperLoy (^_^)

@V.V. I'm glad you like it!

Damkerng T.

09:38

Word of the Day: botch up

Damkerng T.

10:09

Sometimes I think people care about dangling participles too much.

"What about us?" dangling infinitives proclaim!

> It is unwise to swim in the sea after sunset.

"What is the subject of 'swim'?" dangling infinitives demand.

"I'm sorry! I don't know." said me.

Cardinal

10:25

Why does no one answer this question:

1

Q: I am so confused with dangling participles in a sentence

In spite of taking medicine, my health is not improved.. Is this sentence a dangling participle? Why or why not? Explain it to me.

grammar

I do not see any dangling thing !

DEAD

Their house's lights are dangling.

Damkerng T.

@Cardinal Some speakers may object to the use of this taking medicine because it's unclear in the sentence who is the subject of "taking medicine".

Cardinal

Seriously? Since when has this Arabic terms become English? — Cardinal 45 secs ago

Damkerng T.

Hi, @Lawrence! Welcome to the room!

Cardinal

10:40

@DamkerngT. What about you, I think, personally, the subject is obvious.

Avicenna

@DEAD :D someone bought new tables. And started throwing them again! :-)

Damkerng T.

@Cardinal It's up to the reader.

Cardinal

nods

Damkerng T.

Some readers are more strict than others.

Have you checked out the article I linked to?

Cardinal

No, but I skimmed

CowperKettle

11:33

> Therefore, the production instructions should specify the pH limit of 3.9 ± 2

I'm not sure about "the", again

> Therefore, the production instructions should specify a pH limit of 3.9 ± 2 (?)

Damkerng T.

should specify? It sounds as if it was missing in the instructions!

Personally, I think both the and a may be possible but this is highly context sensitive.

CowperKettle

@DamkerngT. What would be a neutral alternative? I thought "specify" was just a neutral word.

Damkerng T.

I don't know the context, so I can't be sure, but it struck me as a bit odd, like something should've been done but was not.

CowperKettle

The production instructions have not been produced yet.

Lawrence

@DamkerngT. Hi! :)

CowperKettle

11:42

The drug is in the development stage.

Damkerng T.

@Lawrence Hi!

@CowperKettle Ahh

Lawrence

O.o Looks like I may have come in at an inconvenient time for you.

Damkerng T.

@Lawrence Oh, it's not like that at all!

Lawrence

:)

Damkerng T.

Actually, please feel free to jump into the discussion.

Lawrence

11:44

I was trying to find the election chatroom earlier, and came into this one by mistake. You did well to spot my quick visit. :)

CowperKettle

@JasperLoy The name of the room reminds me of this song

Damkerng T.

@Lawrence Hehe!

CowperKettle

> I had written him a letter which I had, for want of better
Knowledge, sent to where I met him down the Lachlan, years ago,
He was shearing when I knew him, so I sent the letter to him,
Just "on spec", addressed as follows: "Clancy, of The Overflow"

Lawrence

@DamkerngT. What are you discussing?

Damkerng T.

11 mins ago, by CowperKettle

> Therefore, the production instructions should specify the pH limit of 3.9 ± 2

Lawrence

11:46

Haha. I was just correcting my answer to a "the" question.

Damkerng T.

Should it be the or a or something else?

Oh! :)

Lawrence

0

A: One of only five

Yes, it's grammatically correct. "Only five" in this context means that five proposals were accepted, and no others. Only adjective [attributive] 1 Alone of its or their kind; single or solitary: From "More example sentences": It's always a good sign when you can recognise almost every si...

In @CowperKettle's case, I think it depends on the context.

Damkerng T.

> Therefore, the production instructions should specify a pH limit, for example, 3.9 ± 2.
Therefore, the production instructions should specify the pH limit: 3.9 ± 2.

I suppose these are safe enough.

CowperKettle

@DamkerngT. No, they make stress on that the instruction should include a limit. But they by definition must include a pH limit for this stage in production.

DEAD

BTW, Dam please make me an RO; I need to make some changes to the feeds.

Lawrence

11:49

Use the indefinite article if the pH limit isn't some fixed number, and use the definite article if specifying the number. (This isn't very clear, I know.)

DEAD

You can revoke the access after that.

Damkerng T.

@DEAD Alrighty!

CowperKettle

@Lawrence if the figure 3.9 is mentioned it is clearly a fixed number

Lawrence

@CowperKettle Let me try to phrase it more clearly. The the version is more emphatic.

Feeds

Damkerng T. has added DEAD to the list of this room's owners.

Lawrence

11:53

@DamkerngT. I think you'd normally use the indefinite article in that sentence unless the number is a 'special' number - the max or min or Avogadro's or something else, other than just a plain number that happens to be the correct answer.

Hmm, after re-reading your sentences, I'm not so confident of the reasoning. I can only say for now that the "a" version seems more fluent.

Damkerng T.

@Lawrence Agreed. For me, it sounds a bit like 3.9 ± 2 is the range of pH they want, though.

Lawrence

@DamkerngT. Yes. The "a" version doesn't detract from the intention that 3.9 ± 2 is definitive.

Damkerng T.

nods -- Ah, I didn't notice that CowperKettle had left the room!

Lawrence

Let's change some words and look at a fresh sentence: "You need to set a/the limit of 3 attempts."

@DamkerngT. I saw that one. :)

Damkerng T.

LOL

Lawrence

12:01

Back to the 3 attempts.

Damkerng T.

@Lawrence I'd use a in this one. It's my natural choice.

Lawrence

@DamkerngT. Yes. The question is why.

Damkerng T.

I suppose it's about how I turn my thoughts into sentences.

Unless we're talking about some specific limit (of 3 attempts), there's no real need, and it probably doesn't make sense to use the.

Lawrence

I think using "a" places the emphasis on the limit (the thing you "have to set" is the "limit"; it just happens to be 3), while using "the" makes the whole phrase "limit of 3 attempts" the thing you have to set. Or something along those lines.

Damkerng T.

nods

Lawrence

12:04

You can, however, say, "You have to set the limit at 3 attempts."

Damkerng T.

Ah, right!

Lawrence

This brings the focus back to "limit".

I'm not a linguist; I don't have the deep knowledge at my fingertips of what name goes with which type of word. But hopefully, this makes some sense of what we agree on intuitively about the sentences.

Damkerng T.

I think your explanation makes sense.

Lawrence

:)

I need to go now. I'll try to pop back in later. Bye for now. :)

Damkerng T.

@Lawrence Bye, and thanks!

Drop by again when you have time! :)

No, adding "the" might imply that several 'lots of five proposals' had been submitted, and only one of those lots of five had been accepted, yours being one of the accepted lot. But the intended meaning I believe is that of all the proposals submitted, only five were accepted and yours was one of those five. Can you see the possible difference in meaning? — BillJ 1 hour ago

@BillJ I see the difference now!Thank you!! — Jasmine Kuo 1 hour ago

Whether Jasmine Kuo see the same difference as BillJ or not, I don't know.

Lawrence

12:20

I'm back. :)

Damkerng T.

@Lawrence That was quick!

Lawrence

@DamkerngT. I was called away, and then the person who called me was busy on another task.

Damkerng T.

:)

Lawrence

It's fine. :)

@DamkerngT. I think she does. I pointed out another difference, though, where objectively it was still one of five (not one lot of five), but the focus was different.

Damkerng T.

That would imply that in ... was one of the only five that had been ..., there are many lots of five.

Personally, I can't see how we can read it that way.

Lawrence

12:26

I used this example: The only five websites you need to find a job in development - International NGO Jobs

DEAD

@StackExchange Oh thanks Dam, I'll be a moment

Lawrence

... Then add some names to the front: "xyz and pqr were two of the only five websites you need".

Feeds

DEAD has made a change to the feeds posted into this room

Damkerng T.

@DEAD No problem :-)

Lawrence

... We don't have the sense that xyz and pqr are groups of 5 websites. The idea that they are two of the 5 is quite clear.

Feeds

12:27

DEAD has stopped a feed from being posted into this room

Damkerng T.

@DEAD A message feed is probably not a good idea.

Lawrence

@DEAD You're stopping the room from being fed? :P

DEAD

@DamkerngT. Meta is really quiet. It won't interrupt anything.

@Lawrence So it'll become a man

Lawrence

@DEAD Wow. You lot are very nice to each other, and very tough on your systems. :)

Come to think of it, that's the way it should be.

DEAD

@Lawrence I'm trying to speed up robot revolution

Lawrence

12:31

@DEAD So long as you keep them spinning in circles, chasing their own tails, we should be fine. :)

Feeds

DEAD has made a change to the feeds posted into this room

Lawrence

Hi @Avicenna.

Damkerng T.

@Lawrence Let's try another example, xyz and pqr are two of the only five websites you've selected. I don't think we can apply the concept of "lot" to this one.

Avicenna

Hi @Lawrence!

Lawrence

@DamkerngT. That's right. So let's continue the example.

Feeds

12:33

DEAD has made a change to the feeds posted into this room

Damkerng T.

How could there be two or more lots of "five websites you've selected"?! :-)

Lawrence

@DamkerngT. I purposely put two names there to break the pattern.

But what if we reduced it back to one?

If we have the appropriate context, it's actually fine.

DEAD

That should do

Lawrence

"xyz.com is one of the only five websites you need ... ."

Damkerng T.

@Lawrence I put it back to the same pattern as the original example, which somehow BillJ commented on using the idea of "lots" and somehow the OP understood it!

Lawrence

12:35

That's because the context clarifies that "xyz.com" relates to "website" and not "five websites".

Like if we said "He is one of the only five people who know this secret."

Here, "he" cannot be a group of 5.

Damkerng T.

Right.

Lawrence

So it scans properly.

But the emphasis is now on some fixed group of 5 people.

Avicenna

Congrate owner @DEAD!

Damkerng T.

@Lawrence Which can't explain why we need or don't need the here.

Lawrence

It's not saying that the group of people is very small.

DEAD

12:37

I'm only an owner momentarily

Lawrence

@DamkerngT. I was getting to that. :)

Avicenna

I like it by "a".

DEAD

Dam you can revoke status now if you want

Lawrence

Now consider: "He is one of only five people who know this secret."

This changes the feel of the sentence.

It's now talking about how small the group is.

Damkerng T.

@Lawrence But your reasoning and BillJ's wouldn't be the same, then.

Lawrence

12:38

... That's what was happening with the word the in the original sentence.

@DamkerngT. I have a paragraph citing BillJ that agrees with his comment.

The portion after that describes this change-of-focus idea.

Damkerng T.

@Lawrence That's why I think something strange is going on.

Avicenna

@DEAD Now it's a good time to claim ownership, not to ask @DamkerngT. to revoke it. 😈😈😈😈

Stack Exchange

7

Q: Is 'after 20 years sober' correct in 'In 2006, after 20 years sober, he checked himself into rehab for alcoholism'?

The piece of news from the Huffington Post reads... In 2006, after 20 years sober, he checked himself into rehab for alcoholism. He opened up about his struggles with addiction to alcohol and cocaine in a powerful interview with The Guardian and on "Good Morning America." What sort of use ...

prepositions word-usage sentence-structure

Lawrence

@DamkerngT. Why do you think something strange is going on?

Damkerng T.

@StackExchange Why did that question come up as a message?!

Lawrence

12:41

@StackExchange Hello, why did this pop up?

Damkerng T.

@Lawrence The explanations aren't consistent.

I prefer reading explanations from the viewpoint of someone who does not know,

DEAD

@Lawrence It's a bountied question

Lawrence

@DamkerngT. English has enough ambiguity to accommodate multiple views.

Damkerng T.

'cause if we already know, we already know, right? And what's the point of the explanation if it can't bring someone who doesn't know to know.

@DEAD Only bountied ones?

Lawrence

@DamkerngT. I know. :P

DEAD

12:43

@DamkerngT. Yes. Loong added the feed in the Table, and it's pretty useful

Lawrence

Or should that be inorite?

Damkerng T.

@Lawrence IKR is also fine :-)

Lawrence

That inorite somehow doesn't seem very masculine. Hmm.

@DamkerngT. :)

Anyway, back to the sentence ...

If we have "X is one of the only 5 Y", it is ambiguous whether X is one member out of 5, or whether X is the whole group of 5.

Damkerng T.

+1 That looks fine to me. As you say, adding "the" is not idiomatic, and you echoed my point to the OP that there is a possibility that adding it might give a slightly different meaning. — BillJ 23 mins ago

Lawrence

When we fill in X and Y, the kind of X and the kind of Y makes it clear which we're referring to.

Damkerng T.

12:46

See, there's no good explanation in there why it's not idiomatic.

@Lawrence That was my point, how could we read it that way?

It just doesn't make sense.

Avicenna

What do you think about thus answer.

2

A: what does *to swing from exuberance ...* refer to in the following sentence?

Think of a pendulum, it swings from side to side; the trajectory is from extreme left to extreme right. The analogy here is to swing between two extremes of mood, from a very positive mood (exuberance) to a very negative mood (deep depression). Here the author is saying that both these extremes...

Lawrence

@DamkerngT. So with the original question, since "our proposal" was just one proposal, it couldn't be the whole group of 5 proposals. That's why it sounded somewhat 'off' with the "the" version.

Damkerng T.

It's like we're trying to read it the way we'd read He is one of the only man, which doesn't make sense.

Lawrence

Let's pause for a moment and take a look at @Avicenna's question.

Damkerng T.

@Lawrence I don't see how it can support the idea that the is not idiomatic.

Lawrence

12:49

@Avicenna The answer seems fine to me.

@DamkerngT. Ah, it's not that "the" is not idiomatic. It's that "the" is not idiomatic when X doesn't refer to the whole group of 5.

Damkerng T.

(Instead, I'd say the "websites" example in your answer actually supports the opposite idea, it makes more sense to use the in the OP's example. :)

@Lawrence We're talking about one of (the) only five that ..., so my the is this the.

Lawrence

@DamkerngT. Ok, I'll need to add to my previous statement.

Damkerng T.

It's not very convenient for me to type a lot at the moment. :(

Lawrence

It's not idiomatic when X doesn't refer to the whole group, and the speaker is trying to highlight the small size of the group, not highlight some particular group of 5.

@DamkerngT. Sorry to hear that. Are you ok?

Damkerng T.

@Lawrence Well, I'm a slow typist, and I'm not at my computer.

Lawrence

12:53

@DamkerngT. No problem. I think you're going faster than I am anyway. :)

Damkerng T.

@Lawrence My idea is still clear. :D

Anyway, I hope you (and other answerers) will try to look at the sentence not from a native speaker's point of view.

Lawrence

I wonder - do you agree with the "highlight the small size" vs "highlight the particular group" distinction?

Damkerng T.

And you may see why I don't think BillJ's comment is very good.

@Lawrence It depends, but not along the lines BillJ used, I'm sure.

Another thing is [ the "highlight the small size" vs "highlight the particular group" distinction ] implies that both are possible and probably equally idiomatic.

Lawrence

@DamkerngT. I'm not sure I follow. Why don't you think BillJ's comment is very good?

@DamkerngT. Yes! That's why I mentioned the importance of disambiguating by using the context.

I'm glad you got it.

Damkerng T.

41 mins ago, by Damkerng T.

No, adding "the" might imply that several 'lots of five proposals' had been submitted, and only one of those lots of five had been accepted, yours being one of the accepted lot. But the intended meaning I believe is that of all the proposals submitted, only five were accepted and yours was one of those five. Can you see the possible difference in meaning? — BillJ 1 hour ago

40 mins ago, by Damkerng T.

Whether Jasmine Kuo see the same difference as BillJ or not, I don't know.

> That would imply that in ... was one of the only five that had been ..., there are many lots of five.
Personally, I can't see how we can read it that way.

Lawrence

12:58

(Excuse me for a moment - I'd like to see if @Avicenna had her question answered to her satisfaction. I'll get back to this momentarily.)

Damkerng T.

The comment says,
'one of only five that had been accepted' -- there are only one lot of five
'one of the only five that had been accepted' -- there are many lots of five
right?

Sure. :D

Lawrence

@Avicenna - did you think the answer that you posted was problematic in some way?

Or alternatively: what was it about the answer that sparked your interest?

Damkerng T.

money amplifies our tendency to overreact, money amplifies our tendency to swing from exuberance when things are going well to deep depression when they go wrong. — Avicenna 7 hours ago

Basically, Avicenna argues that the to swing ... modifies the whole phrase, money amplifies our tendency to overreact, not just overreact.

I think the answer is fine, but it's not very clear (to learners, but the OP accepted the answer, so it should be fine).

Lawrence

@DamkerngT. I see. That's how the sentence reads to me as well; it's still fine. I wonder whether @Avicenna was highlighting the effect of money, as opposed to the purely textual use of a noun. I.e. looking at it sociologically (?) rather than linguistically.

(I'll let @Avicenna respond when she's ready. In the mean time, back to the "the"s.)

Damkerng T.

nods

Stack Exchange

13:08

1

Q: What is the meaning of the term 'OP' used here?

I want to know the meaning of the term 'OP' used here? What is the exact meaning of 'op'? Is it an abbreviation of something?

discussion

0

Q: Do we want word-s or sentence-s in our tags?

I'm thinking of organizing something big. This is the last match, and I'd try my hardest to finally beat tags. This post might be the first of the many to come. We need to know what we want our tags to be, this time step by step. The main question of this series of posts is What kind of class...

discussion tags

Lawrence

@DamkerngT. On this note, since Jasmine doesn't say what she sees, but just states that she sees the same thing as BillJ, we can only take her word for it. She doesn't elaborate to contradict or support that interpretation. So I think we don't have enough information to come to any conclusions about what Jasmine sees, and should therefore simply accept her comment at face value (or ignore it, if you prefer).

Damkerng T.

Hmm... somehow I don't like message feeds much!

Lawrence

@DamkerngT. Correct, there aren't many lots of five - there's only one.

Damkerng T.

@Lawrence Right! I was just curious about what she sees. :)

Lawrence

@DamkerngT. Whose comment - BillJ's?

Damkerng T.

13:10

@Lawrence That's how I read BillJ's comment.

Or comments

Lawrence

I think BillJ's comment does bring up the "many lots of 5" idea, but then dismisses it based on context.

... So I don't have a problem with his comment either.

Damkerng T.

It doesn't explain, and in fact, it can complicate the matter even further, if the reader thinks about it, e.g., what should we think of "'one of the five that had been accepted"?

Do we need to think of many lots of five first?

Lawrence

@DamkerngT. I hope that my answer to the question answered that. :)

But if it doesn't, let me know, and I'll try to clarify.

Damkerng T.

@Lawrence Sorry, but I don't think so.

@Lawrence Don't worry. You should focus on helping the OP, rather than me. :-)

Lawrence

@DEAD Did your messing about with the feeds bring up all these Stack Exchange messages?

@DamkerngT. I don't have a conversation with the OP at the moment. Helping you is helping the OP.

Give me some time to see what I can do with my answer.

Damkerng T.

13:16

@Lawrence Which we see no other feedback than "I see" in a comment!

Lawrence

@DamkerngT. Your comments are much more informative. :)

Damkerng T.

FWIW,

> The definite article shifts the focus from the size of the group to the group itself. It doesn't make the sentence ungrammatical, but it may convey a slightly different picture, one at odds with the sentence as a whole.

I agree with the first sentence.

And two-third of the second. :-)

But I upvoted the answer anyway. :)

Lawrence

13:31

@DamkerngT. Thanks! :)

I'm trying to bring it the rest of the way, but I might have to let it sit for a bit.

Damkerng T.

@Lawrence nods -- I think your answer makes the most important point clear enough.

Lawrence

@DamkerngT. I've started editing, but I think I've ended up going around in circles and getting stuck. I'll leave it be. For now. :)

Avicenna

I read it again, to swing... is explaining overreact. But I guess nowadays a dash is used instead of comma to give explanation.

Lawrence

Changing the subject now. @DamkerngT., how did you come to own this room? How did it start?

@Avicenna Let me go take another look.

Damkerng T.

@Lawrence nods -- I still can't figure out a very good way to make the differences between one of five Xs (that ...), one of the Xs (that ...), one of the five Xs (that ...), one of only five Xs (that ...), one of the only five Xs (that ...), etc.

(Just some random ideas)

Lawrence

13:37

@Avicenna Let's take a look at the sentence:

As we are learning from a growing volume of research in the field of behavioural finance, money amplifies our tendency to overreact, to swing from exuberance when things are going well to deep depression when they go wrong.

First, it chunks up this way to me: (As we are learning from a growing volume of research in the field of behavioural finance), ((money amplifies our tendency to overreact), (to swing from exuberance when things are going well to deep depression when they go wrong)).

Avicenna

I guess exuberance and deep depression are examples of overreaction.

Lawrence

... There are two 'groups' / phrases / things (excuse my inelegant terminology) at the top level. The first is the 'reason' / rationale / cause (what we're learning) and the second is the conclusion.

Damkerng T.

@Lawrence Actually, anyone with enough rep points can create a chat room. I'd chatted in the old ELL main room for a while, and I started to see that sometimes I wanted to dig deep into the topics while most users wanted casual chat and sometimes quick help. When the time seemed right, I created this chat room.

Lawrence

... The second chunk has two parts. The second is an example of ellipsis, where a phrase is left out but the context makes clear that it's there.

... Where you see "to swing from exuberance when things are going well to deep depression when they go wrong", add the first part of the "money ..." phrase, to give "money amplifies our tendency to swing from exuberance when things are going well to deep depression when they go wrong".

Avicenna

@Lawrence what phrase?

Damkerng T.

13:43

(I used to chblog, half-blog-half-chat, in this room, sometimes!) This room hadn't been the main ELL chat room until a couple days ago. The old main room had low activity, so we kinda merged them.

Avicenna

@Lawrence I thought that way at first.

Lawrence

@Avicenna Yes, those are examples that were given of overreaction.

@Avicenna the phrase "money amplifies our tendency".

Avicenna

@Lawrence But it's not correct.

Damkerng T.

@Avicenna Do you mean "money amplifies our tendency" is not correct?

Lawrence

@DamkerngT. Let's go through the 2 tests I noted in my answer, and let me know where they stopped helping. You've put X where I put Y, so I'll just change the letters altogether to avoid confusion. The phrase structure is "P of (the) (only) five Qs". The first test is: is P able to actually be the group of five Qs? If it is, then use "the".

@DamkerngT. That's a good starting point. No wonder the room is now so popular that it's said to have overtaken the 'official' main chat room. :)

Avicenna

13:49

@DamkerngT. No, I don't. I mean it's not the musding phrase if we consider the sentence after comma as an explanation for overreaction.

Lawrence

@DamkerngT. Congratulations! It can't be very often that the owner of the main chat room isn't a moderator of the community.

Avicenna

44 mins ago, by Lawrence

(I'll let @Avicenna respond when she's ready. In the mean time, back to the "the"s.)

Damkerng T.

@Lawrence That's why I thought it seems to support P is the only five Qs. (I think I still think so.)

@Lawrence Thanks! :)

Lawrence

@Avicenna Can you elaborate?

Avicenna

@Lawrence you used she!

@Lawrence I mean it's not the musding phrase if we consider the sentence after comma as an explanation for overreaction.

Lawrence

13:52

@Avicenna Oops, sorry. I can't tell the gender of many names that aren't familiar to me. Please accept my apology.

@Avicenna What's a musding phrase?

Avicenna

@Lawrence No need for appology. Acually you're right! I was surprised because many think I am male. :D

Lawrence

@Avicenna Oh, phew. :)

Damkerng T.

:)

Lawrence

I think the term for the phrase thing is apposition.

Like "I saw him, the barber." - the noun phrase the barber serves to explain (or rename or reword) the noun him.

So the whole final inner bracket, "to swing ... go wrong" serves to explain the last word before the preceding comma, i.e. "overreact".

@DamkerngT. But "our proposal" is just one proposal. It can't be all 5 together. So it fails the first test, and we need to apply the second.

Damkerng T.

@Lawrence Maybe I misunderstood your test!

Lawrence

13:59

@DamkerngT. Before I put my foot into it, you're a guy, right?

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