Language Overflow - 2016-04-07 (page 1 of 2)

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Anonymous

1:19 AM

This question is now unlocked:

Anonymous

3

Q: stuck in how to differentiate between regular and irregular verbs

As I know that in regular verbs we put 'ed' and in irregular verb we do not put 'ed' while changing it into past or past participle but anyone who does not know about the 2nd and 3rd form of verb so how he/she should know that word is regular or irregular verb??

Anonymous

So if anyone wanted to vote on the question or answer before and couldn't, now's your chance :-)

1:33 AM

them invented irregulars

"catch" is weirder

1 hour later…

2:41 AM

@snailboat Where's the Horn quote about how we still don’t know diddly about NPIs?

Never mind, found it.

Mar 27 at 16:49, by snailboat

> Despite the considerable progress that has been achieved over the last two decades, the bad news is that we know squat about the proper treatment of negation and polarity. But then, by the Law of Excluded Middle, the good news must be that we don't know squat about the proper treatment of negation and polarity.

Provided that law is applicable

7 hours later…

10:04 AM

@J.R. I'm surprised to read that you are fine with either "I wish to speak with British accent" or "I wish to speak in British accent", and I'm not talking about the prepositions. — Damkerng T. 9 mins ago

@DamkerngT. - Well, I was talking about the prepositions; I never said I was fine with the whole sentence. I'd probably reword it to something like this: I wish I could speak in a British accent (or with a British accent; either preposition would work). — J.R. ♦ 6 mins ago

Phew!

For a moment, I thought I wish to speak in/with British/American accent may be fine.

10:27 AM

Good afternoon, Damkerng! Good comments.

Thanks!

Good afternoon!

I think you can answer between /among-question, I read your comments too.

Between/among question?

I remember that we have some between/among questions!

Oh, I saw the new one!

About the difference.

Hmm...

> Between the students in the class which is the best?

I think that which is very weird.

But I'm not very sure if it's really wrong.

10:32 AM

Someone provided a link, and I read your comments to the previous one.

@V.V. That's the way I think when I use between and among!

It should be between in the majority of cases,right?

I'm not saying that native speakers would think the same way, or my way of thinking will result in the same choice every time.

@V.V. I'm okay with the part Between the students in the class.

And I'm thinking that which is probably okay, too.

What's essential when making a choice?

I usually think that between can imply "between each pair of them".

But!

Note that if you take my idea of between is for "between each pair of them" too literally, you can run into a problem with a sentence such as There is a treaty between the five great power.

So I think the Star topology reminds me of between, while the Fully Connected can remind me of either between or among (though I think I still tend to think of the relationships as between; to think of it as among, I need something more messy). Consequently, I prefer the between version to the among one in your edited question. This is just my opinion, though. — Damkerng T. Jun 18 '14 at 9:35

See, that's how things that sound like "relationships" can influence my choice of word.

Argh! My fingers!

I think the new question is better answered by a native speaker.

It'd be likelier that he or she will evaluate both "between" and "among" alternatives for each sentence.

10:49 AM

You believe both are possible.

In #1, yes.

It's an interesting question. I should find out more.

Among doesn't really work in #2, and #3, IMO.

But that's where I know my evaluation can deviate from one by a native speaker.

There was a version, something taken separately or as a group.

nods

10:53 AM

Can it be applied?

To use among, I need to be able to think of the items as a cloud, or a swarm.

@V.V. It's along the same lines, I think, but "a group" could be read several ways.

So five countries are cosidered each separately, right?

Yes, more often than not.

I should have used a unity,perhaps.

A unity?

Ah, "a unit" or "an entity", perhaps?

10:58 AM

Instead of a group, or a unit.

We don't normally consider five countries a single unit.

That's why there's between

nods

What's the third sentence?

There is a treaty between the five great power, I think.

11:04 AM

We have just commented upon that.

Give it some time, perhaps a few hours.

I wouldn't say which, I think.

Which sounded like an odd choice to me at first.

What made yiu change your mind?

You, of course.

I can't remember well, but I think maybe when I read it the third time, it seemed to sound okay. Perhaps because I can think of it as which student.

> Between the students in the class which (student/one) is the best?

Still, I'd use who myself

Word of the Day: buffoon

(Just misheard it as "bafoon")

11:24 AM

Well, which can be used with a noun (which student. or which of the students, or in identifying questions Which is your husband?

So a noun or a pronoun should be added. Or who should be used.

I think our example is similar to Which is your husband?

On second thoughts, it might be.

I wonder what different dictionaries say about these prepositions.

@V.V. With lots of usage notes, maybe.

11:44 AM

Thanks, Damkerng, we almost answered the question (for ourselves), I think, let's wait for some other (correct) opinions.

I never talked so much,btw.

@V.V. My pleasure!

@V.V. You should speak out more often. ;-)

You know, I am not talkative by nature. Besides, you have a feeling that you are performing on the stage with a lot of people around (noticing your mistakes ).

I can relate to that feeling. I used to be very shy when I had to speak English.

Then, I figured, what the heck, if I wouldn't talk, who would know what I think, and probably don't go anywhere (in my jobs).

So I tried to speak up more often, and stopped worrying about my mistakes when I speak English.

12:27 PM

That^ right there is a huge step in any learning process :-)

1 hour later…

1:47 PM

@DamkerngT. A question for you from our mod :-) please accept that!

@DamkerngT. You mean I wish to speak in/with....accent is incorrect? You mean "I wish to [verb]...' is incorrect? I wish to fight like my superhero! is incorrect? — Maulik V ♦ 19 mins ago

I don't know why or whether it's true, but these following two sentences mean two different things to me, slight difference though -

> I wish to speak (in/with) BrE accent.

and

> I wish I could speak (in/with) BrE accent.

The last sentence has a feel that I can't speak in that accent. But the first doesn't say anything about that. It says at least now I'm not speaking in that accent.

2:32 PM

I think it was clear why I thought your original answer wasn't correct in standard English. I didn't talk about the prepositions. It was about the articles. You seem to often drop articles when I think I wouldn't, and use articles when I think I wouldn't.So it was quite surprising to me when I saw J.R. upvote your original answer. Having said that, I don't really if your choices of articles are always considered correct in Indian English. Apparently, the OP and you chose the same choice of article in the example sentence. — Damkerng T. 36 secs ago

@Man_From_India I think he missed my point. I thought it was so obvious and his comment wouldn't be necessary.

2:47 PM

english.stackexchange.com/review/suggested-edits/174027

An interesting suggested edit (by an anonymous user)!

Basically, the suggestion is to change what you're looking for to what you're chasing after.

Hmm...

I want to reject on the ground that "it's not a big deal" (i.e., there is no real improvement).

But the closest reject reason I can have is "no improvement whatsoever"!

That's a big too strong, but I might have to choose it anyway.

Also, chasing after is not a better word choice (compared to my original looking for in that context), in my opinion.

@DamkerngT. yes article is also necessary, but as JR pointed out I also don't like the way this sentence is formed. I think tgere is a difference between OP's sentence and the one suggested by JR, and I prefer JR's version.

It would make another question on the main site, IMO.

But we're fine to discuss it in here! :D

I think if we say I wish to speak in/with a(n) British/American accent, the preposition can influence the meaning quite a lot.

I wish to speak with a British accent would likely imply that I can't speak in a British accent.

I wish to speak in a British accent, I think, implies that I'm going to speak English, and I want to do that in a British accent.

3:08 PM

user image

You are welcome! ;)

UGH!!!!! Why should a high-rep user... who happens to be a mod... "allowed" to do something that the two other mods specifically believe is neither necessary nor helpful and is potentially exclusionary of many of the best users on this site? That makes no sense.

Sorry... I can't remember which room is which... Is this the "no complaining" room or the regular one?

@Catija It's supposed to be in another room, but if a complaint is fair and won't take long, I think we're okay with it.

@Catija it's for ELL site

@DamkerngT. OK. I'm done. So it won't get extended on my part.

Yeaaaaaaah

Thanks @ShadowWizard!

3:14 PM

@Catija Was it about voting to close or something? I could use a link, I think.

6 mins ago, by Shadow Wizard

You are welcome! ;)

:D

4

Q: Instruction while drinking milk - Don't spill the milk; what about solid food?

I instruct my daughter when she's drinking milk Take care; don't spill it. How do we do the same for food i.e. solid food? Take care; don't _______ it. To my mind comes the only option - drop. But I also feel that 'dropping' suits more when the bowl is broken. Say - She dropped the bo...

See? I welcomed you before you thanked me. ;-)

Half of the comments have already been deleted... but if you look at the question edit history that tells part of the story anyway.

Oh, comments are deleted more happened since late last year!

It's a shame that many of them are useful, IMHO.

Hah! Autocorrect! I meant to say deleted more often not more happened!

3:44 PM

@snailboat Babymetal made their debut in the US!

BABYMETAL Makes Their U.S. Television Debut

Damn you autocorrect!

One of my favourite websites.

@JohnClifford Hehe! Most auto-corrections are funny!

damnyouautocorrect.com

3 hours later…

6:21 PM

@Cowp

4

Q: Effectiveness of poems

What skills will learning poems in the target language by heart improve? Won't it inhibit learning process as poems sometimes disobey common grammar rules?

learning-methods poem

6:43 PM

It is correct English. It is not, however, correct english. The former one is the language you are using. The latter one is the spin you put on the ball in billiards. "Leopard attacks farmer, found dead" is certainly not a spin you put on the ball in billiards. — ЯegDwight 2 days ago

That comment is the awesomest thing I've seen on the internet.

@IͶΔ A nice Thai song is mentioned!

I wonder if I've seen her in a badminton court.

นอนไม่หลับ (ถ้าไม่กลับพร้อมเธอ) : Me' | Official MV

@DamkerngT. โอ้ละหนอดวงเดือนเอ่ย พี่มาเว้ารักเจ้าสาวคำดวง โอ้ว่าดึกแล้วหนอพี่ขอลาล่วง อกพี่เป็นห่วงรักเจ้าดวงเดือนเอย ขอลาแล้วเจ้าแก้วโกสุม(เอื้อน).

LOL -- That's a different song!

No, โอ้ละหนอนวลตาเอย พี่นี้รักแสนรักดังดวงใจ.

Anonymous

I see spaced em dashes more than spaced en dashes.

6:57 PM

I think so. What question are we talking about here?

BTW, good afternoon!

Anonymous

I was talking about spaced em dashes and spaced en dashes. :-)

Anonymous

Good morning!

Anonymous

It's actually afternoon here, but the most recent message with a timestamp on chat says 11:57.

Morning/night!

Evening!

@snailboat Ah, I missed the afternoon by a few minutes!

Anonymous

7:00 PM

7

Q: SB and STH in dictionaries

tell sb to do sth (Cambridge Learner's Dictionary) When I look in dictionaries, I often see the words sb and sth. Are these proper words? What do they mean? Can I use these words in my essays, for example? Can I use these words in my posts on Stack Exchange?

word-meaning abbreviations dictionaries

Anonymous

How do we feel about posts that say things like "NP"?

Before joining ELL, I would wonder, what is it?!

Anonymous

But if I say "noun phrase", is the meaning obvious?

Yes.

I guess it's the same for sb or sth to native speakers.

Anonymous

Well, they're clear to me. I first saw them decades ago :-)

Anonymous

7:03 PM

I think in a bilingual dictionary.

@snailboat If WTH is what the hell, what is STH?

nods

Anonymous

But they're not in general use.

Oh, no! Most Thai songs are really sad...

Anonymous

@IͶΔ Which conditional is that?

7:05 PM

I'm like a candle. Only needed when the light is out. You only think of me as a candle...

So sad! -- youtube.com/watch?v=5GwIdOEn2SE&nohtml5=False

@snailboat Number 0.5

Anonymous

Are you in need of un-sad songs?

Meh

Please!

Anonymous

7:08 PM

My speakers are off

@snailboat Oh, I wants soda, thanks you

Anonymous

@IͶΔ Soda will kill you and steal your lunch money. In that order.

This air will kill me faster.

It's also steal my skin brightness when I'm biking.

Interesting! Both "suda" and "chon" can have meaning in Thai!

Anonymous

This genre is called math rock, by the way.

Thanks!

Math rock?

Is it algorithmic?

7:12 PM

No, it's a misspelling of meth rock.

Anonymous

Math rock is a rhythmically complex, often guitar-based, style of experimental rock and indie rock music that emerged in the late 1980s, influenced by progressive rock bands like King Crimson and 20th century minimalist composers such as Steve Reich. It is characterized by complex, atypical rhythmic structures (including irregular stopping and starting), counterpoint, odd time signatures, angular melodies, and extended, often dissonant, chords. == Characteristics == Whereas most rock music uses a 4/4 meter (however accented or syncopated), math rock frequently uses non-standard time signatures...

BTW, Babymetal came to America!

Anonymous

Oh!

Anonymous

I heard! :-)

Anonymous

Thank you for your message.

7:13 PM

My pleasure!

They looked very cool!

Anonymous

My friends here refuse to show any interest in Babymetal.

Anonymous

Too overproduced, reasons like that.

Aww

@DamkerngT. Who's she/he/it?

Anonymous

So now that Babymetal is here, I get to hear all the reasons why no one is interested.

Anonymous

7:14 PM

I like Babymetal, though. :-)

4 hours ago, by Damkerng T.

BABYMETAL Makes Their U.S. Television Debut

@snailboat I know them because of you! :-)

Anonymous

They're popular! Ish.

Isssssh

Anonymous

Perfume is still my favorite idol group, though.

@snailboat I like it that they write "( SINGING IN JAPANESE ) ( CHEERS AND APPLAUSE )" in the transcript!

@snailboat Waiting to see Perfume come to America. :-)

Anonymous

7:17 PM

They already have! :-)

Oh!

Anonymous

They're popular-er.

Haha!

Anonymous

They have a really good choreographer, too.

Anonymous

[MV] Perfume「レーザービーム」

7:21 PM

Hi. :)

Anonymous

Hello again! :-)

Hi!

2

A: What's the difference between "afraid of + verb" and "afraid to + verb"?

As McCawley 1998 puts it (p.126) Roughly speaking, • that-complements [tensed clauses] correspond to propositions • for-to complements [infinitives] correspond to situation types • 's-ing complements [gerunds] correspond to events Afraid is a psych predicate adjective (formed from...

My internet connection is still not very stable.

> Roughly speaking,
• that-complements [tensed clauses] correspond to propositions
• for-to complements [infinitives] correspond to situation types
• 's-ing complements [gerunds] correspond to events

7:22 PM

I wonder if it's because it's almost New Year now.

What do you think 's-ing complements means?

Anonymous

Possibly [His taking the trash out] was unexpected.

(Sorry if I'm jumping in the middle of a conversation!)

@snailboat But the question is about the meaning of afraid of doing something.

@Færd Oh, don't worry! Having a few things at once is usual in here. :-)

There is no possessive in that.

Anonymous

7:23 PM

@Færd Right. But hold on a sec.

Anonymous

Let's talk about infinitives.

OK.

Anonymous

> 1. I want [to go to the park].

Anonymous

> 2. I want [~~for~~ her to go to the park].

Anonymous

> 3. I want [for her to go to the park].

7:26 PM

I see. They're all categorized under for-to complements.

Anonymous

In the first example, there is no overt subject (syntactically) for the infinitival clause, so it's taken as semantically predicating on the matrix subject.

Anonymous

But they might be considering these all to be for–to complements.

Anonymous

They might take 1 as "I want [~~for me~~ to go to the park]."

Makes sense!

Anonymous

Oh, I didn't see that you'd actually linked to an answer.

7:27 PM

@Færd I think it's his generalization.

Anonymous

Yeah, this is about McCawley's treatment in Syntactic Phenomena, right?

I think so.

Anonymous

So in this theoretical framework, you start with as much information as possible and talk about omitting it.

@snailboat Says so in that answer.

I don't have McCawley's, though.

@snailboat That's a very nice way to put it!

Anonymous

7:28 PM

So it's a for–to complement even if the for part is missing.

Yes.

Anonymous

So if you take the basic way of writing a subject of an -ing clause as expressed with 's, and then you posit the operations of he + 's → his along with optional genitive–accusative conversion (his → him) and optional subject deletion . . .

Anonymous

Maybe put a few more nuanced rules on when different operations apply, but that's the general idea.

Anonymous

McCawley was a generative linguist.

Anonymous

So he called these operations transformations.

7:31 PM

But where can you place a possessive in I'm afraid of touching a spider?

To indicate the subject I mean.

Anonymous

Before touching. I'm afraid of my touching a spider.

Ah.

Anonymous

Of course, you wouldn't actually say that.

Now the penny dropped! Thank you. :-)

Anonymous

Let me actually read the answer to see what's been explained already . . .

7:34 PM

LOL -- youtube.com/watch?v=9_ifx-Dmv9g&nohtml5=False -- It's Hole in the Wall!

Anonymous

Okay.

Anonymous

> 1. I want [~~for me~~ to go to the park].

Anonymous

This, for example, has the rule of Equi NP Deletion applied.

Anonymous

The subject NP in the main clause and the subordinate clause are equivalent, both I, so the rule deletes it from the subordinate clause.

Anonymous

> 3. I want [for her to go to the park].

Anonymous

7:36 PM

The rule doesn't apply here because the subjects are different (I and she).

Anonymous

It's that sort of theoretical framework.

I see.

Anonymous

You start with underlying sentences (he uses sentence and clause to mean the same thing) and apply rules to come up with the actual things people say.

And I guess I want her to go to the park is the same as 3, only without for.

Anonymous

Yeah, I probably should have swapped examples 2 and 3.

Anonymous

7:38 PM

The example without for is considered to be derived from the example with for.

But without for it sounds like a more direct directive, doesn't it?

Anonymous

I don't know. I think they have roughly the same meaning.

Or is there any difference in the meaning?

I feel like they're roughly the same, but from different centuries.

So it's just my hallucination caused by being a non-native speaker.

@DamkerngT. How so?

7:42 PM

Maybe it's only our familiarities.

Anonymous

Well, you don't have to take my off-the-cuff judgments as absolute :-)

Anonymous

You can legitimately have impressions about language that I don't share.

No, but for the time being I'm inclined to trust your judgments more than mine.

Anonymous

By the way, I rather prefer the treatment in CGEL (starting on p.1178 or so).

Every time I read "I want for her/him to do something", I imagine a very old movie!

7:43 PM

@DamkerngT. You mean in the third person only?

Hmm... it has to be in the third person, I think.

Anonymous

In their analysis, for is required and can't be omitted. When there is no for, the "subject" NP is not really part of the infinitival clause, but is instead an object licensed by the matrix predicator.

Anonymous

Which explains why for is required when there isn't a matrix predicator that licenses an object.

Ah, I confused it with the accusative!

Anonymous

> 4. [ For them to withdraw now ] would be a mistake.

Anonymous

7:44 PM

> 5. *[ Them to withdraw now ] would be a mistake.

Anonymous

> 6. It is not necessary [ for them to wait any longer ].

Anonymous

> 7. *It is not necessary [ them to wait any longer ].

(Anyway, I bet that we can find X want for Y to Z in stuff like Little Women or Pride and Prejudice.)

Anonymous

I think that if versions with and without for are both possible, we usually don't use for.

Anonymous

But I think you can still find both in use.

7:48 PM

Let it be known is still in used, too!

@snailboat Is that the reason why you prefer their approach?

Anonymous

@Færd Seems simpler.

Anonymous

Actually, in general I like starting in the opposite direction.

Anonymous

McCawley starts with as much stuff as possible, and then removes it.

Anonymous

Huddleston & Pullum try to explain what we actually get as an end result.

Anonymous

7:50 PM

Here's an example of H&P's approach.

Anonymous

They don't talk about that-clauses.

Anonymous

If you do, you end up with some that-clauses where that must be omitted!

Anonymous

H&P instead have declarative content clauses, which start without that.

Anonymous

Some of them are "expandable", which means that can be added.

Anonymous

It's really just approaching grammar from the opposite direction.

7:52 PM

@snailboat What's the opposite of generative? Is there a word for that?

For their approach?

Anonymous

Well, there are a zillion ways to approach grammar.

Anonymous

Huddleston and Pullum write:

The generative approach is still very strong, I think.

Anonymous

>  . . . what we present in this book is an informal descriptive grammar, not a formal generative one: we are not deriving the 'surface structure' of sentences from abstract 'underlying structures'.

Anonymous

@DamkerngT. Yeah, in certain circles.

7:55 PM

@DamkerngT. But I think it's too logical to be able to explain language.

Anonymous

I don't have much interest in generative grammar, myself, but you have to be familiar with it because a lot of work has been published in that sort of theoretical framework.

Anonymous

So you can't just ignore it.

Anonymous

Well, I mean, you probably can :-)

@Færd You might find stuff like cognitive grammar interesting!

Anonymous

You have references that are in no sense generative like CGEL, if you want to use them :-)

7:56 PM

Which you? :P

Anonymous

@Færd Well, what's your goal in studying linguistics?

I don't know yet. I like to be able to recognize general patterns as far as there are such patterns.

But I don't want to sacrifice the details and nuances and illogical aspects of language.

Anonymous

You might want to familiarize yourself with different sorts of frameworks just so you can see what interests you, and of course so you can understand publications that use those frameworks, regardless of what you personally think of them.

Is McCawley's book a good example of the generative framework?

Anonymous

Well, the problem there is "the".

Anonymous

8:00 PM

It's a great example, yes, but it's not what generative linguists are mostly doing today.

Anonymous

Today folks are interested in the so-called "minimalist program".

Anonymous

Mostly.

Chomskians?

Anonymous

Yeah.

So what do you recommend in a student's level?

Anonymous

8:02 PM

McCawley's book is actually a great resource because it's logical and practical, and it cuts out a lot of the cruft and baggage that many other generative linguists deal with every day.

Anonymous

You don't need any other books to understand it.

Anonymous

Make sure you get the second edition.

@Færd Non-native speakers who are English students (i.e., learning English as an L2), I suppose?

I don't know what L2 means, but I was thinking of A Student's Intro by H&P.

Anonymous

@Færd Oh! Well, I'd definitely recommend that book.

Anonymous

8:04 PM

Of course, it won't teach you anything at all about generative linguistics.

L2 = second language

Anonymous

But some would argue that's a good thing :-)

Anonymous

Yeah, L1 = language spoken since birth, L2 = language acquired as a teenager/adult.

I guess I'll start with that, and then maybe move on to other books!

Anonymous

@Færd A Student's Introduction is the baby version of CGEL.

8:06 PM

Also available on Kindle. ;-)

Anonymous

It's like the same book, but if you made each chapter about 80% shorter, cut out a few chapters entirely, and added a tiny bit of new content.

Arau acquainted me with it.

Anonymous

@Færd Download the draft Adjuncts chapter: lel.ed.ac.uk/~gpullum/grammar/adjuncts.pdf

Thanks!

Anonymous

Read it maybe after chapter four.

8:08 PM

Btw, did you guys notice that I've changed my name at all?

Of course! A couple days already, I think.

How did you pronounce my last name (Fard) in your head? With æ or ɑː?

Before you told us, the latter.

I wanted to be clear that it's [æ].

A nice solution!

8:13 PM

You see, for example, snow translates to barf in Farsi.

Only it's not barf; it's bærf.

Which vowel is it?

A-ha!

And so on.

I don't know if there are ær s in English.

I guess in English, the influence of car, dart, chart, etc., is too strong.

You're right. I can only think of marry, carry etc, which have a vowel after [r].

Other than those, every ar s are pronounced [ɑːr], as far as I know.

nods

8:17 PM

What's the time where you are?

Very late. :D

Like, already past three in the morning. :-)

I can imagine. I wonder when you sleep!

Usually early, literally! :P

Good for you. (I mean that.)

I sleep very late, and compensate for it by sleeping during the day.

Well, if I can say that I have a sleep pattern at all.

Power naps help!

Anonymous

8:21 PM

So, not fɑrd.

@DamkerngT. They do. I usually have a nap during the night. :)

@snailboat Right!

It's not my actual name, but, nevertheless, I didn't want it to sound like fart.

(Pardon me if that's considered to be foul language. (Is it?!))

You can type stronger words than that in here. :-)

(not that I'm gonna, but..) Phew!

I have a friend named Fiet, which, as a Thai name, sounds strange.

I know a company named Fiat! :P

@DamkerngT. How strange?

8:26 PM

One day she told us that all her sisters' names are supposed to sound like car brand names. :D

Hmm... It doesn't sound Thai.

Okay.

And apart from the brand name, it's not an English word, either. (AFAWCT)

Maybe it's time for me to take my night nap.

Be-em is one of her sisters, as you may guess. :-)

Have a nice nap!

@DamkerngT. The parents are car lovers apparently!

8:29 PM

Hehe! probably!

Thanks. Bye all.

o/

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