Language Overflow

Damkerng T.

00:27

6

Q: Are dummy subject and impersonal subject the same?

It is sunny. (impersonal subject) It is difficult to learn English. (dummy subject or place holder) In Korea, we learn that dummy subject and impersonal subject are different. But, I don't think so. I think that dummy subject and impersonal subject are same. For example, 'It is hot in the r...

dummy-pronouns

It's one of our bounty questions at the moment.

I think it's not very precise to say either the two are identical or the two are mutually exclusive.

The main problem seems to stem from the use of both terms (dummy and impersonal) is vague and no one seems to define them rigorously.

And even if someone has defined them rigorously, I'd say that there'll be someone else who wouldn't completely agree with them.

Funny that A Student's Introduction to English Grammar doesn't mention "impersonal". Not even once.

It has a related definition of "dummy", though:

> A dummy element is one that has no independent meaning of its own but occurs in certain constructions simply to satisfy some syntactic requirement.

However, grammar.about.com defines it a little more loosely (it would've been even more loosely if the last sentence and the latter part of the sentence before that weren't there):

> Unlike the ordinary pronoun it, dummy it refers to nothing at all; it simply serves a grammatical function. In other words, dummy it has a grammatical meaning but no lexical meaning.

In any case, it seems like most definitions of dummy I found on the web roughly emphasize on the same thing: it's only there for the syntax.

Impersonal seems to be more problematic if we want to have a precise definition.

Anonymous

01:21

@DamkerngT. But its big brother CGEL does! :-)

Araucaria

09:16

Huh? How did this question get closed?

2

Q: She seems to be in a better mood than (what) she was in before. --meaning difference

She seems to be in a better mood than she was in before. She seems to be in a better mood than what she was in before. Are both the above sentences grammatically correct? What's the difference in their meaning?

sentence-meaning

Can we try and reopen this please!!

@Man_From_India If you want an answer, old bean, you're going to have to get the question reopened!! :-) I've cast the first reopen vote.

PhMgBr

@Araucaria voted

Araucaria

@PhMgBr Nice one!

:)

@PhMgBr I like how your name has letters now!

PhMgBr

@Araucaria One of the reasons I changed it.

Araucaria

Much appreciated ;)

Damkerng T.

09:44

@Araucaria I like it that it's easier to type, but I'm still not sure how to read it! (I've got the same problem with names like Jrrw, Zygggr, Pttpttpttyyckk, Mnpnm, etc., in a novel!)

PhMgBr

Apr 14 at 19:58, by snailboat

@DamkerngT. It's pronounced like LetterletterLetterletterLetterletter.

Damkerng T.

LOL

Araucaria

@DamkerngT. Yes, but not too big a problem because you don't need to use sound on here ;)

Nother question needs reopening:

PhMgBr

@DamkerngT. Is this a novel Hagu wrote?

Damkerng T.

@PhMgBr Oh, it's from that Cabbages of Doom novel!

Araucaria

09:51

2

Q: How to agree with a negative statement: with "yes" or with "no"?

This question here asks about answering negative questions: How to answer a negative question in English? I have a completely different question. I want to know: how do we agree or disagree with negative statements in English. Example: ––This is not a duplicate question. ––Yes, it is a ...

negation subject-verb-agreement

Damkerng T.

They're from the planet Mikeleron III. :-)

Voted!

Hmm... wait, isn't is a duplicate?

PhMgBr

It's a dupe to me.

Araucaria

@PhMgBr That's because you know the answer!!

PhMgBr

O_O

Damkerng T.

I agree that it's not a duplicate, even though the same concept applies.

Araucaria

09:57

@DamkerngT. I agree. There's no reason to think that we agree with negative statements in the same way that we respond to negative questions.

PhMgBr

So you disagree?

Yay! @Arau's mysterious today

Araucaria

@PhMgBr Especially because negative questions don't involve the negation of any idea or proposition. "Did you not go?" essentially means the same thing as "Did you go?". But "This is not a dupe" does not mean the same as "This is a dupe". There's no reason to think that we agree with negative statements in the same way we answer negative questions. And in fact we don't!!

Damkerng T.

No, I agree. I agree that it's not a duplicate.

Araucaria

@DamkerngT. Exactly!

PhMgBr

Blah blah blah

Have your vote

Araucaria

10:00

@PhMgBr It is possible to say "yes, it's a new one" in response to OP's question. But it wouldn't work without the "it's a new one". We also say things like "yeah, no, it's a new one"

@PhMgBr Is one feeling grumpsome?

Damkerng T.

A little more tricky one could be: This is not a duplicate, right? or even This is not a duplicate, yes? (What would it mean if the answer is "Yes"; what if the answer is "No"?)

PhMgBr

@Araucaria If it gets reopened, I'm expecting an @Arau answer.

I'm not reopening for free!

Araucaria

@PhMgBr Oh, crumbs. I'll see what I can do at the weekend :-)

@DamkerngT. Or even This is not a duplicate, no?! Tricky isn't it!

Damkerng T.

Aye!

Araucaria

@DamkerngT. Have you been learning Scottish? :)

PhMgBr

10:04

Downloading Scottish

Damkerng T.

@Araucaria I learned Pirate-ish!

Araucaria

@DamkerngT. Well shiver me timbers

@PhMgBr Which is better than downing Scotch.

Damkerng T.

:D

PhMgBr

Almost

Araucaria

:D

Damkerng T.

10:10

BTW, I find it a bit confusing when I read a novel that has names that I can't read, so I have to come up with a way to read them anyway. I read Jrrw as Jarew, Zygggr as Zyggar, Pttpttpttyyckk as Pittypittypittyuck. I don't have a good way for some other names, like Mnpnm. I read Mnpnm as Mmm. :P

And for some reason, I chose to read the name of Professor Sdplggymzkkzkk as Spudge!

PhMgBr

@DamkerngT. Spledgy ma zachzach

Damkerng T.

Hehe!

Araucaria

@DamkerngT. Me too. Like I call PhMgBr Phenylmagnesium bromide

PhMgBr

IKR

Araucaria

@PhMgBr What be IKR?

Damkerng T.

10:13

@PhMgBr Okay, I'll call @PhMgBr Phenyl!

PhMgBr

I Know, Right

@DamkerngT. Or Phenny

Or Vanilla

Damkerng T.

Got it, Phenny!

PhMgBr

OK that's too much of a stretch

Araucaria

@PhMgBr Phenyl sounds good ...

@PhMgBr Thanks, still learning interenglish

Færd

Hi everyone!

Araucaria

10:15

@Færd O/

PhMgBr

\o

Damkerng T.

Hi!

Færd

@Araucaria You have a big head. Probably studied too much.

Araucaria

@Færd Full of air!

Færd

Oh good!

@Araucaria So do you have time now for the question I asked yesterday?

It'll be fine if not.

Araucaria

10:18

@Færd I've got ten minutes, so we could definitely start :)

Færd

Thanks.

Araucaria

@Færd What would you like to know?

Færd

See, One thing about me is that I don't like text books.

I study novels, videos, etc.

Araucaria

@Færd That's a good way to learn ...

Færd

And before the test I'll start with test books hopefully.

Do I have to pick up one of these dull textbooks to get a good grade in those tests?

PhMgBr

10:20

Nope.

Araucaria

@Færd Yes, you need to do a few tests and see where your strengths and weaknesses are before you start your assault

PhMgBr

If you have some background in something test books are the final shot of winning in the exam.

Færd

@Araucaria Yes, tests I'll do. But textbooks?

Araucaria

@Færd Not necessarily. It depends which bits you find tough

@Færd It depends what you're good at ... So use the test as a diagnostic. If you're already getting high marks on the use of English then you might be able to get away without one.

Færd

That's a relief.

To give you an idea,

in English Language & Usage, Apr 24 at 17:09, by Færd

Araucaria

10:23

@Færd Notice the if in there though!

Damkerng T.

Hey, that's The Great Gatsby!

Færd

@Araucaria Mhm.

Araucaria

@Færd Do you do any extensive reading?

Færd

How do you mean?

PhMgBr

Færd

10:24

@Araucaria Oh, yes.

Damkerng T.

Oh, extensive reading is "reading" for me. Intensive reading is like "close reading" for me, I think.

Færd

Some books I study in depth. Some I read faster and have fun with.

Araucaria

@Færd Well, in your picture you've done a very careful and painstaking job of thinking about the vocab and grammar and other features. So that page will have atken you quite a while to work through.

Færd

@DamkerngT. It sure is!

Damkerng T.

@PhMgBr It's Trrll from Mikeleron II!

Færd

10:26

@Araucaria That's just the first time.

Araucaria

@Færd They're both important. But the "reading for fun" is very important :)

Færd

After finishing each chapter I reread it an relisten to it for like 10 times before gonig on to the next.

@Araucaria Okay, very good tip.

Ugh .. my memory.. I wanted to ask something else ..

Araucaria

@Færd The reason is that we pick up most of our vocab and even grammar by accident, not by studying. We only get a very small amount of it like that ...

@Færd Shall I give you some tips while you're thinking?

Færd

Please, go ahead.

PhMgBr

Hint: Your question isn't about glassware.

Araucaria

10:29

OK, so three golden rules for any language exam:

1: ATFQ

2. RTFI

3. Give the monkey what he wants

Damkerng T.

Translation: Answer the eff question. Read the eff instructions. Give them what they want.

Araucaria

@DamkerngT. Prezackerly.

OK, so here's some useful and funnish stuff to do for the reading part of the exam.

Færd

I hope eff is not an abbreviation for the swear word.

:)

(Don't mind my interruption.)

Araucaria

Find some kinds of texts that you're interested in (not fiction). Copy them and give them to a friend. Get your friend to cut them up into paragraphs and give them back to you.

Then arrange them in the right order from left to right (don't try and put the page back together in the same shape, because you'll use the shape of the little sections to help you.)

You will need to look at things like pronouns and figure out wht they refer to.

Færd

Do I read them before I give them to my friend?

Araucaria

10:35

@Færd No!!! Don't!

Færd

Figures!

Araucaria

Also look out for things like discourse connectives which will give you ideas about contrasts or similarities of ideas between paragraphs.

Check out the continuity of ideas between the paragraphs

Færd

Nice way to practice reading.

Thanks.

Araucaria

Look out for collocations and word families that may be used in consecutive paras.

@Færd Make sure you're interested in the topic of the piece and treat it like a puzzle, i.e. do it for fun. Even better if you can do it with someone else because then you'll discuss why each bit has to follow on from the previous one, and when you explain these things you'll remember the strategies.

Færd

Very good.

Araucaria

10:41

Ok, so another reading thing you can do. Find another article that you like the topic of. Read it. Then try and write what the article basically says in one sentence.

Færd

Okay!

Araucaria

Then, take each paragraph and try and summarise it in one sentence. But! Do not use any of the same words they use in the article (apart from names etc)

So, for example, if the article has ten paragraphs, you should end up with one general sentence and then ten sentences which match the other paras.

@Færd Are you going to do the paper test or the computer one?

Færd

I don't know yet.

Probably the computer one.

Can I choose?

Araucaria

@Færd Yes, it's completely up to you. They normally have different dates for paper and CBT

Færd

So, which should I choose? Does it matter?

Araucaria

10:45

@Færd I think that paper is easiest. But it takes a little bit longer to get your results!

Færd

Okay then.

Araucaria

@Færd If you do the paper for example, it's easier to go backwards and forwards between questions.

Færd

Mhm.

Araucaria

Also you can mark up the paper as you go.

Færd

That was very good homework for the reading part.

Araucaria

10:48

So a very good strategy for some questions on the reading section is to underline all the unusual nouns and numbers in the writing as you read it. Then when you need to refer back to the text you can find the right place very quickly and save a lot of time. You can't do that on the computer based test

On the other hand, you might prefer the CBT if you still find it awkward or slow writing roman script. It could help with the writing section (but from your notes on the GG, I don't think you have any problems with English script)

Færd

No, I don't mind paperwork!

@Araucaria My goodness, I thought you said full of hair! Hence my comment Oh, good! Sorry.

Araucaria

A bit of hair and a lot of air!

Færd

But you're very good at what you do. You're tips show.

Araucaria

@Færd I've got to scram right now. But if you have any questions, just leave them here and I'll get back to you. I'll give you some tips for the writing next time I pop in.

@Færd Thanks, I try!

Damkerng T.

o/

Færd

10:58

@Araucaria Thank you very much.

Araucaria

\o

Færd

Bye.

skill patrol

cya later

Araucaria

@Færd You're very welcome:) Bye all!

Damkerng T.

If my head is big in any way, it's probably because my ears don't want to be too close to each other... :P

Færd

10:59

@DamkerngT. That makes for an oval head.

Damkerng T.

Hehe!

skill patrol

:D

Færd

11:14

@DamkerngT. I didn't realize at that moment that that was an actual translation.

Damkerng T.

@Færd Hah! I thought you knew!

Færd

I'm not very good with abbreviations.

Damkerng T.

I'm not very good either!

I feel like I run into a new one every week!

Færd

So eff did stand for f**king.

Damkerng T.

Yep!

skill patrol

11:17

I found this @Færd I hope it helps :)

It has Youtube tutorials too.

Færd

@DamkerngT. And what a nerd I must've sounded like when I said I hoped it didn't!

Damkerng T.

Oh, I thought you were polite. :-)

Færd

@skillpatrol Thanks you. :)

skill patrol

np

Færd

@DamkerngT. No, at least not that polite.

I dumb down to less than half my intelligence (assuming I have some in me) when I'm thinking/talking in English.

Damkerng T.

11:20

@Færd Aww... I know that feeling.

But frankly, I don't think you'll have any real problem with reading/writing tests.

Færd

Well, what can you do, right? :)

@DamkerngT. Thanks.

Damkerng T.

@EricHa One important point about this kind of cleft sentence is you can drop the pronoun in your example because it's not the subject of the dependent clause. When it's the subject of the dependent clause, you can't drop the pronoun, e.g.: It was Mary who/that wrote this letter. — Damkerng T. 12 mins ago

The OP's sentence is It was Mary (who/whom/that) I saw at the station yesterday.

I'm sure we can drop the pronoun in that sentence.

But when the dependent clause is very short, dropping the pronoun will make it sound a bit weird to me, e.g.:

> ?It was Mary I met.

Hmm... I'm not sure. Maybe it's okay.

I wanted to say it's not okay, but maybe it's fine.

off to the garden

skill patrol

cya later

skill patrol

11:49

you may also find this interesting @Færd

Anonymous

13:32

:), In the grammar books, it is common to refer to the direct object as second object. I got used to use first and second objects rather, indirect and direct objects, respectively. Thanks — Cardinal Mar 25 at 21:21

Anonymous

Is it really common? Somehow I've never managed to run across that before.

Damkerng T.

18:16

@snailboat I think this is the first time for me, too!

Anonymous

Good morning, @DamkerngT.!

Damkerng T.

Good morning!

I was reading a meta post about VLQ flags on EL&U. I gathered that flagging a post as VLQ is not encouraged. Not sure if it's the same on all stacks.

Anonymous

I think they might be getting rid of that flag type.

Damkerng T.

If I'm not mistaken, instead of flagging a post as VLQ, we should simply vote to close it.

Anonymous

in English Language & Usage, 48 mins ago, by Færd

> it was just the kind of story where you had to be there.

Anonymous

18:24

Færd had an interesting question about the grammar of where you had to be there, but EL&U chat is so active, with so many people talking about different topics, that it drifted away before we really had a chance to cover it.

Damkerng T.

I saw that. I think it's a bit weird no matter what pronoun we use, or whether we use there or not. -- Oh, I see.

We can finish the discussion here, if you'd like.

Anonymous

@DamkerngT. VLQ is supposed to be for posts that are meaningless gibberish, like if a question read "FNAEukhfl;IJ:3fj;ainVeAO:HN#FG;ifj3fnCN:#JIQ#J:" in its entirety.

Damkerng T.

Where was it left?

Anonymous

8

Q: Remove VLQ as a flag option

The Very Low Quality flag option sucks. prepares for controversy I'd like to see it removed totally as a flag option. Its original purpose was as a response to contentless or meaningless posts; posts that aren't answers, aren't coherent, aren't even made up of words. It was intended for cases w...

discussion flags moderator-tools low-quality-posts

Anonymous

Shog9 writes:

Damkerng T.

18:26

A-ha! I thought there must be something like that. I perhaps have read that, but I wasn't able to track it down. Thanks!

Anonymous

> The only practical difference between a "close as unclear" flag and VLQ from the perspective of the flagger is that the former recognizes the potential for correction, while the latter sees none: in both cases, the question is insufficient, but one flag provides instruction for improvement and offers a chance at redemption, while the other admits there's zero chance of any substantive improvement and requests that the blight be obliterated before it spreads.

Anonymous

@DamkerngT. Well, the question might be why you can use where there, and what the grammar of the constituent is.

Anonymous

For example, is it a relative clause?

Anonymous

If it's a relative clause, there should be a gap left behind by where moving to the front of the clause. Is there?

Damkerng T.

It reads like a relative clause to me.

Which is why I think it works better without there.

Anonymous

18:29

> This is the place [ where you have to be ＿＿ ]

Anonymous

Here we have a relative clause.

Anonymous

> #This is the kind of story [ where you have to be ＿＿ ]

Anonymous

It doesn't seem to make sense with story as the head noun. A story isn't a kind of place.

Anonymous

> This is the kind of story [ where you had to be there ]

Damkerng T.

nods -- It's a bit weird anyhow.

Anonymous

18:30

But this does make sense.

Damkerng T.

Hmm..

Oh, I see.

I guess I have to read it as a content clause.

A similar pattern: This is a language where var is a reserved word.

(BTW, I just made that up.)

Anonymous

Can we replace where with in which?

Damkerng T.

I was thinking about that!

Anonymous

> This is the kind of story [ in which you had to be there ]

Damkerng T.

When I think of this where as in which, This is the kind of story where you had to be almost makes sense.

Anonymous

18:37

Let's try a non-relative version:

Anonymous

> You had to be there in that story.

Anonymous

Dang, it's really hard to come up with a credible-sounding example :-)

Anonymous

That sentence isn't very good.

Damkerng T.

Hehe, I suppose it sounds a bit weird whatever way we try to read it. :-)

Anonymous

It just seems weird to me to think of this where constituent as a relative clause because it doesn't seem like it has a gap to me.

Anonymous

18:41

It seems to me more like where is taking a declarative content clause as a complement.

Sᴋᴜʟʟ ᴘᴇᴛʀᴏʟ

It's the kind of story where you just had to be there.

Damkerng T.

I guess it's because a "story" isn't a physical place.

Sᴋᴜʟʟ ᴘᴇᴛʀᴏʟ

It's the kind of joke where you just had to be there.

Damkerng T.

Now I wonder, is it possible to use in which to head a relative clause?

Anonymous

@DamkerngT. Well, it's possible for in which to appear at the front of a relative clause.

Anonymous

18:45

That's a different question from whether in which is the head :-)

Sᴋᴜʟʟ ᴘᴇᴛʀᴏʟ

In which way?

Damkerng T.

nods -- I used the term head non-technically, I think. :D

@Sᴋᴜʟʟᴘᴇᴛʀᴏʟ In which way? sounds like the content clause is omitted.

in English Language & Usage, 2 mins ago, by Færd

> It was just the kind of story where you had to be there.

Sᴋᴜʟʟ ᴘᴇᴛʀᴏʟ

nods

Damkerng T.

in English Language & Usage, 2 mins ago, by Færd

Why can't I use that instead of where?

I doubt if we really can't use that.

It would be just fine, I think, if we take you had to be there as a content clause.

Damkerng T.

19:08

@snailboat I think CGEL mislabels the pages in their Index.

In Conceptual Index, they write:

> impersonal construction 159, 210, 960-2, 1259, 1481-2

But if we go to page 159 or 210, we'll find nothing about impersonal construction!

Anonymous

Sigh! It really is a bad index, isn't it?

Damkerng T.

It seems so!

Anonymous

Well, I've encountered that kind of problem with other indices, too.

Damkerng T.

Index is very important for a book this thick, imo!

Anonymous

So it should say 960-2, 1259, 1481-2, I guess.

Damkerng T.

19:11

I'm not sure why they included 159, and 210.

Anonymous

They have email addresses you can send errors to: lel.ed.ac.uk/~gpullum/cgelerrata.html

Damkerng T.

Oh, is the error I just found in the error list?

Anonymous

I don't see it.

Damkerng T.

> (literally: we have heard from readers in the UK, Germany, Nigeria, China, Korea, Papua New Guinea, Australia, Canada, and the USA).

Oh, how cool would it be if they added Thailand to that sentence!

PhMgBr

@DamkerngT. Bots don't count

Damkerng T.

19:18

Ah, but bots can be readers, too!

Damkerng T.

19:33

Hmm... CGEL puts "It as subject" and "The impersonal construction with it as subject" as two different points, but does this mean that the two are mutually exclusive?

For "It as subject":

> It is hardly surprising that he tried to retract his statement.

For "The impersonal construction with it as subject":

> It appeared/seemed that he was trying to hide his true identity.

It's clear that *That he was trying to hide his true identity seemed is not a good sentence, so syntactically, the two are not quite the same.

But the scope of impersonal is not very clear, though the book seems to suggest, strongly, I think, that they're not the same.

The its in both constructions are called "dummy", so maybe V.V. is correct in this respect.

(V.V. wrote: ell.stackexchange.com/a/87918/3281:

> Not all dummy it-subjects are impersonal, but any impersonal it-subject is dummy/empty.

)

But if we go by CGEL, this part would be wrong (though it's not very obvious how CGEL defines the term):

> 1.It is sunny. It is hot in the room (illustrate a dummy/empty impersonal it.)

On page 1482, CGEL puts It is raining. It became very humid. under "Whether, time, place, condition" which is one of "Spacial uses of it".

In the explanation, it is considered a dummy subject, but nothing about "impersonal".

Argh! It's still inconclusive.

Anonymous

19:51

@DamkerngT. Syntactically, the two constructions seem to be different.

Anonymous

But there's a unifying principle behind it appearing in both of them, isn't there?

Anonymous

English demands a subject in a finite declarative clause.

Anonymous

So we add it when we wouldn't otherwise have one.

Anonymous

An it that has no meaning.

Damkerng T.

20:10

What is your language? Also could you write the word in question in your character set if it is not Western? — user3169 Mar 26 at 17:15

It's mentioned in the detail already. "Maika" and it is an eastern word. — Ardis Ell Mar 26 at 18:46

scratching head...

What language is it? It's intriguing!

Anonymous

@DamkerngT. Urdu / Hindi?

Damkerng T.

trying...

Catija

It's Hindi.

in.answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20110613215743AAaJJED

Damkerng T.

A-ha! Thanks, both of you!

Anonymous

1

A: have(get) objective p.p

"To have something done" can carry a lot of sub-text and hidden messages in some cases, when it is compared to alternative wording. However, In the particular case of this question, it seems to me that it is not so "loaded". A likely meaning of this sentence is "I gave my watch to someone at the...

Anonymous

20:17

Someone successfully identified a non-be passive! :-)

Damkerng T.

Ugh! But why the downvote in the other answer?

Anonymous

I didn't downvote.

Anonymous

And I think the answer is right. But I'm afraid that it's not useful enough to upvote.

Damkerng T.

I didn't think it was yours. -- nods

Anonymous

Why not? Because I don't think that it gets the idea across unless you already know what it means.

Anonymous

20:19

So I left it at -1 instead of upvoting.

Anonymous

I was trying to figure out how to phrase a comment to that effect.

Damkerng T.

Sometimes, I just don't understand my cat. One minute he seemed to be happy having me stroke his back, the next minute he bit me, three times!

Anonymous

Oh!

Anonymous

I hope he didn't bite very hard.

Damkerng T.

He sniffed my wrist (which was of the same hand that stroked him). I wonder what smell he got that triggered the bites.

Anonymous

20:25

Varun's answer is now at +2 | -2.

Anonymous

I still haven't voted.

Damkerng T.

It wasn't very hard, but not very lightly either.

@snailboat Me either.

> Whereas we have a little bit of controversy over sentences such as “It is me,” “Woe is me” is the only correct way to say it--it’s not controversial--because in “Woe is me,” “me” is in something called the dative case, not the nominative like it is in “It is me.” In other words, the “me” in “Woe is me” is an indirect object. The person is receiving woe (6). - See more at: quickanddirtytips.com/education/grammar/…

> quickanddirtytips.com/education/grammar/…

> via: ell.stackexchange.com/a/88525/3281

I thought Grammar Girl was usually correct.

Anonymous

Well, English has no dative case.

Anonymous

Old English did.

Damkerng T.

I think "Woe is me" is correct because it's a fixed phrase.

Anonymous

20:36

Sure. That's a good explanation.

Anonymous

It doesn't explain why it was the right choice, of course :-)

Damkerng T.

Hehe! True!

Anonymous

But the reason it is fine is different from the reason it was fine.

Anonymous

In discussions of Modern English, if we use the term dative at all, it's in reference to preposition phrases headed by to.

Anonymous

Of course, these preposition phrases don't constitute a case. They're not part of a systematic form of morphological marking on nouns or pronouns.

Anonymous

20:38

So when we use the term dative (and not everyone does), it's with the understanding that it's not really the same thing as an actual dative case.

Anonymous

It is prototypically used to show the same sorts of relationships, though.

Anonymous

And because of that relationship, we can explain the archaic dative me in woe is me by saying it's really more like Modern English 'to me'.

Anonymous

Of course, Woe is to me doesn't really work as a sentence in Modern English!

Anonymous

mentalfloss.com/article/61846/why-it-woe-me-instead-i-am-woe

Anonymous

This is a good discussion.

Araucaria

20:42

Interestingly, we can't say "Woe's me"

Damkerng T.

Oh!

Anonymous

@Araucaria Færd had a really good question about where and is coming back tomorrow to ask more about it. I was trying to reason through it earlier, but I'm not sure I have the right answer.

Anonymous

The sentence is:

Anonymous

> It was just the kind of story where you had to be there.

Araucaria

@DamkerngT. Really?????? I think we need someone to start a Grammar Gastropod page to provide a decent alternative ...

2

Anonymous

20:45

I encouraged Færd to ask it as a main site question :-) But I think they've been disappointed with the quality of some of the responses they've gotten, and are reluctant to post :-(

Araucaria

@snailboat Yes, I saw. Interesting. Am cogitating ...

@snailboat I'm sure you could rectify that problem with a bit more ponderance and a well turned answer, no?

@snailboat It's definitely a tough question ...

@snailboat Place is a weird word though. I'm not sure it's a good one to compare with because it could make things very complicated. It's often referred to as an "adverbial noun". Here's a post I wrote about place and relative clauses

In case you're like ultra-bored ...

Damkerng T.

@Araucaria "This is a great restaurant to eat." sounds like a probable sentence from a robotic point of view. :P

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