Language Overflow

Damkerng T.

00:01

This chart says "Dental", but it's under the letter, not over.

Anonymous

I'm familiar with that one! :-)

Damkerng T.

Argh! Why is it a lowercase l in learners!

Anonymous

I don't know, but I like this version more than the first one.

Anonymous

I'm happier having language spelled out.

Anonymous

I think English Language & Usage has the best design out of the SE sites I've used. I don't like this new ELL design quite as much, but it has a very interesting and different character, which I think is nice.

Anonymous

00:11

ELL has a somewhat different atmosphere, I think, and maybe we can say the design reflects that difference.

Damkerng T.

The true test will be when we can see the text rendered in questions/answers.

I wonder if I will write longer answers because of the new font. :D

Anonymous

I hope whatever fonts are specified are good for IPA.

Damkerng T.

Oh, that's important, too!

Anonymous

On Japanese.SE, we have a special script set up which does various things. It was originally for furigana support, but it now does other things. One of those things is special support for IPA fonts.

Anonymous

@tchrist Sorry I forgot to get back to you about this script, by the way!

Anonymous

00:15

If you're interested in the technical details, you can ask cypher, one of our users who's been maintaining the script as a volunteer.

tchrist

Ok thanks. Firefighting at $job right now.

Damkerng T.

bicworld.com/en/products/details/136/wite-out-quick-dry

Phew! -- We still have it!

Anonymous

Oh! Interesting. Would you believe I didn't remember that the brand name was spelled in a non-standard fashion?

Damkerng T.

Oh! Really?!

Anonymous

I was thinking of it as white out, probably genericized.

Anonymous

00:24

I wonder if it was always spelled that way. Maybe it's a new spelling intended to combat their trademark being genericized.

Anonymous

Nope! Looks like that spelling goes way back.

Anonymous

I haven't used it since I was a child.

Damkerng T.

Oh! Only rubbers?

Um... I meant erasers!

Now I'm not sure what it's called in each dialect.

Ah, I see. Eraser works in both dialect, but rubber works only in AmE.

My family used to own a rubber tree farm.

Anonymous

@DamkerngT. I think rubber is in dialects other than AmE.

Anonymous

Rubber in Macmillan Dictionary

Anonymous

00:38

> 2. [countable] American informal a condom

Anonymous

> 4. [countable] British an eraser

Damkerng T.

Ah, sorry, I meant to say that "rubber works only in BrE"!

Anonymous

Ah, I see :-)

Damkerng T.

Sorry for the confusion! :D

I wonder if or when I will be able to watch those "direct to Netflix" shows.

Anonymous

00:59

What shows do you want to watch?

Anonymous

Orange is the New Black is popular, but I haven't seen it.

Anonymous

I watched Daredevil with my comic book friend, and I thought it was pretty good.

Anonymous

I think that's the only Netflix exclusive I've seen.

Damkerng T.

@snailboat I've heard about the O.J., and the Brady.

It sounds like they're going to have a new Brady series on Netflix, if I'm not mistaken.

The People v. O.J. Simpson is trending now over there, I think.

Anonymous

Oh! I don't know about either of those.

Anonymous

01:08

Or rather, I hadn't heard about them until now.

Damkerng T.

I've heard about Orange is the New Black, too, but I'm not sure what it's about.

I have a hunch that this year will mark several major changes in the world.

skull petrol

Excuse me? There is no NEW black. There's the silver & black and nothing else :)

Damkerng T.

@skullpetrol Hehe! I'm not the one who came up with the title anyway. :-)

"X is the new Y" has become a common patter now, I think.

Anonymous

It's what the folks over at Language Log call a snowclone.

skull petrol

True dat^

Damkerng T.

01:16

In case you wonder where my "n" was gone!

Sometimes I don't understand how my browser works!

skull petrol

:D

Nice evidence

Damkerng T.

:D

Damkerng T.

01:36

> These neural nets say "I love you" not only when it seems appropriate, but also whenever they get confused.

> popularmechanics.com/technology/a18066/…

That means, their "I love you" doesn't mean anything much.

0

A: it's live vs. it's on live

You can use either one. I wanted to ask my teacher if this online class is going to be live. live means it is not "prerecorded". You can also use this for a party: I wanted to ask my friend if the entertainment at the party is going to be live. live means there will be in-person perfo...

Huh?

> I wanted to ask my teacher if this online class is going to be on (TV) live.

I think it sounds strange with or without TV.

(How often does our site give information that contradicts itself?)

Anonymous

@DamkerngT. I think it might be strange for a class to be both online and on TV.

Anonymous

But on TV live sounds okay to me. In this case, on TV is one constituent and live is another, and we can reorder them: live on TV

Damkerng T.

And I'd be confused if I heard on live.

Anonymous

So live is not the complement of on. I think *on live is ungrammatical.

Damkerng T.

Oh, on TV live is okay? Ah, I see!

It's on TV and it's live.

Anonymous

01:46

Although, on live TV is probably on [live TV] and can't be reordered.

Damkerng T.

I think the OP might be thinking about something like if this online class is going to be available live.

(Or perhaps, more idiomatically, is going to be live streamed.)

I'd recommend reading the first paragraph on that Canonicalization page first. Then, you may look for some examples under sections "Web servers" and "XML" (you may skip all the text and check out only the examples, which are formatted as code). — Damkerng T. 55 mins ago

I wonder if I should've been less strict.

The first paragraph on that page reads:

> In computer science, canonicalization (sometimes standardization or normalization) is a process for converting data that has more than one possible representation into a "standard", "normal", or canonical form. This can be done to compare different representations for equivalence, to count the number of distinct data structures, to improve the efficiency of various algorithms by eliminating repeated calculations, or to make it possible to impose a meaningful sorting order.

Student

02:52

Good morning. This article is interesting for me, what do you think? theconversation.com/…

Damkerng T.

I think native speakers still have huge advantages in international job markets.

Especially when it comes to higher rank positions.

Student

@DamkerngT. How about the communication breakdowns?

Damkerng T.

What do you mean by communication breakdowns?

Failure to communicate in conversation may be caused by either or both of the two sides.

Student

as stated in the article @DamkerngT.

Do you think we should learn each other's culture as well?

Damkerng T.

But when it comes to writing... it's almost always the case that less proficient non-native speakers are responsible to most part of the problem.

@Student Culture and language are two different things, right?

Student

03:07

For example, here, we are naturally used not to mention something straight to the point.

Damkerng T.

It depends. My experience tells me that it's different in each project.

(Also, there are several ways to be "straight to the point".)

Student

03:43

Ouch! :) @DamkerngT.

Damkerng T.

:-)

Student

"straight to the point" in general may cause "misunderstanding". Excuse me, I should've explained in a better way :)

Damkerng T.

@Student It's a bit paradoxical, isn't it? Getting right to the point, and yet can't get the point across? (BTW, don't worry. :-)

Student

04:04

hahaaa :) :) :) @DamkerngT.

Do you think that language is a bridge of communication? @DamkerngT.

Damkerng T.

04:29

@Student I do think so.

Student

Thank you @DamkerngT.

Damkerng T.

But I didn't do anything for you yet!

Student

oh heheee am culturally used to say it :)

I wish we have successfully made a bridge of communication.

Damkerng T.

I hope so. Well, I think so. :-)

Student

04:46

Thanks @DamkerngT. :)

Damkerng T.

No problem. :D

Student

You see, I can say "thanks" for more than once in a conversation. That's my native culture :)

I hope you will get used to it shortly :)

Damkerng T.

Well, what about my feeling? :-)

I feel a little awkward when being thanked before doing anything worth it.

But I understand you. :D

^@Student

(I just thought that I should've added @ to you. :-)

Anonymous

05:18

I think it's partially culture, partially language.

Anonymous

Like in English, for example, sometimes we use words to "thank" people when they haven't done anything yet, just to add politeness.

Anonymous

Or if we expect that something will be done in the future, and we want to express our gratitude in advance. (People vary on whether they like this.)

Anonymous

Whereas in Japanese, arigatō is strange if the listener hasn't actually done anything for you yet.

Anonymous

You can still be just as polite, but you use different expressions to do it.

Damkerng T.

nods -- I think I understand that strange feeling. :D

Anonymous

05:21

A lot of English speakers use the expressions Thanks in advance!

Anonymous

But some other English speakers are less fond of it.

Anonymous

So sometimes the appropriateness depends on the speaker, I think :-)

Anonymous

People who dislike Thanks in advance! react similarly to Please and thank you!

Damkerng T.

In my first language, there is a saying "see the wind direction". :-)

(Which is quite similar to "When in Rome")

Another saying is "look the horse's eye and the boat's eye". (Don't ask me why. It doesn't work for me when reading it word by word, either.)

@snailboat A thankful order!

Anonymous

We have a similar metaphor, but it might not be used in the same situations. You know this expression, I'm guessing? phrases.org.uk/meanings/222050.html

Damkerng T.

05:24

Oh, right!

I wonder it they're from the same origin.

Oh, I can figure it out now! "look the horse's eye and the boat's eye" is from chess! (We call the rook "boat".)

(And "eye" refers to the next possible moves of a piece.)

Gasp! -- I joined 23 SE communities!

But really use only one, and occasionally use only a few.

Anonymous

I only use the natural language sites 99% of the time.

Anonymous

Right now I'm not actively posting anywhere but Japanese.SE, but of course I could go back to posting any time I have the time and inclination :-)

Anonymous

I'm still helping out in little ways, though.

Damkerng T.

Hmm... it looks like I've joined Stack Apps, but unlike other stacks, it doesn't think I've already logged in when I go to its main page.

Anonymous

Maybe that site is special.

Damkerng T.

05:37

@snailboat I hope you'll post answers on ELL sometimes. :-)

Anonymous

@DamkerngT. I still check the site almost every day, and sometimes I make little comments or edits :-)

Anonymous

"Almost every day" is what I always did, by the way.

Damkerng T.

Yay! -- I think I saw that sometimes, too. :-)

Anonymous

I never managed to get the fanatic badge.

Anonymous

I also try to help in chat, although not everything I say is actually helpful! Sometimes I don't read enough of the discussion before responding.

Anonymous

05:41

And sometimes I'm just here to chat.

Damkerng T.

@snailboat The easiest one for me. :-)

Anonymous

But I do like helping and I want to see ELL succeed!

2

Anonymous

I've pointed a lot of people at ELL, by the way.

Anonymous

I know not every question gets a good answer, but a lot of them do.

Damkerng T.

Yay!

Anonymous

05:43

I'm happy broccoli forest has been posting questions.

Damkerng T.

I wonder if I've 4000+ comments now. :P

Anonymous

This one was originally in Japanese.SE chat:

Anonymous

2

Q: Is "thunderhead" a living English word?

I was taught a word thunderhead means "cumulonimbus" in American English. However, Several speakers said they didn't use the word when I asked it on chat. It seems that the word certainly appears in corpus. Do you use, or know this word? Do you know where, or by what kind of people it's used? Am...

Damkerng T.

Oh!

Anonymous

It seems like people do use thunderhead, but it's not part of my active vocabulary.

Damkerng T.

05:47

It makes me think of some Thai words I wouldn't use myself.

For example, [head-dawn]. I just say [dawn-morning].

(There is nothing wrong with the word. It's just that there are too many choices.)

Anonymous

> thunder-head, (a) a rounded mass of cumulus cloud seen near the horizon projecting above the general body of cloud, and portending a thunder-storm; hence thunder-headed a., having, or of the nature of, a thunder-head; (b) nonce-use, a large head, as a whale's head

Anonymous

(OED)

Damkerng T.

"a large head"!

tchrist

11:36

@snailboat I don't think I've used it lately either, but I can't say whether I never produce it. It's interesting to try to examine one's own use on words that one certainly knows what mean but may not use much if at all. Having a few decades of written correspondence helps, but is not dispositive.

Damkerng T.

12:19

0

Q: Correct use of articles

I've read many articles and watched movies on Youtube, but I still have big problems with articles. Many times I get this right, but very often I use articles in the wrong way. Could somebody in plain English explain this; for me this is the hardest thing in English. For example: Why do you...

articles

> "Americans speak English differently to the British."

differently to?

I don't think it's grammatical. (At least it shouldn't be idiomatic.)

If it's grammatical, I don't think it means what the OP thinks it means.

IͶΔ

Well, Americans sometimes try to imitate the Brits when speaking to them, so it is kinda "differently".

Damkerng T.

:D

Nihilist_Frost

14:27

how do you usually pronounce "our"?

I usually alternate between the pronunciations "hour" and "R"

IͶΔ

15:26

@Nihilist_Frost Me too, except mine looks more like "hour".

Jim Reynolds

15:53

Fellow English learning enthusiasts, (and MAR),

Is there a sandbox where we can paste answers?

I mean... to show another user how something will look using wikimarkup, or whatever it technically is?

IͶΔ

@JimReynolds Wait a sec

Jim Reynolds

Quick. Thunderheads gather, and it looks like rain!

IͶΔ

0

Q: Formatting Sandbox -- Please test stuff here

What the title says. Use this for testing stuff and gosh I can't believe we didn't have this till now.

discussion formatting

There you go Jimmie.

Jim Reynolds

<3

IͶΔ

16:35

@Jim where's your answer? O_o

specgram.com/CLXXV.2/03.linguimericks27.html

> Intrative ablative delative?
Sublative allative elative—
Subessive adessive;
Antessive egressive.
Locative prolative perlative!

Jim Reynolds

18:11

@IͶΔ :D

There was once a woman named Lynn,

who was so incredibly thin,

that when she essayed

to drink lemonade,

she slipped through the straw and fell in.

@snailboat I think it's silly to object to it in most instances, but it can be used manipulatively.

If one is asking a favor, and the addressee is purportedly free to refuse, it's possible to you a "thanks in advance" to say, I'm pretending that you have a choice, but you better.

Even if such a threat is intended, that might be a nice way to make it, but I wouldn't like it when the speaker is using it as a passive-aggressive threat.

Damkerng T.

18:34

1

Q: Why do people say "explain to me", not "explain me"?

Is there any grammatical rule to know which verbs can (or better, must) be sometimes followed by "to"? Some examples are: Please explain to me why... She said to me that... I'm aware I could also say "explain me", but such thing would mean something like "explain what I am" or "give an explan...

verb-forms transitivity

@ColleenV My question was 'Why was this question migrated?' Apart from the 'too broad' issue (which I'm sure is still an issue on ELL), the level is at least ELU-standard – and probably needs a doctoral thesis as a decent answer. — Edwin Ashworth 8 mins ago

The way the question is posed probably makes it need a thesis indeed.

It asks a) Why do people say so?; and b) Is there any grammatical rule to know which verbs can be used as such?

> web.stanford.edu/~bclevin/mrhbl08dat.pdf

> The English dative alternation: The case for verb sensitivity, Beth Levin. Stanford University

But if we take the OP's question as a learner wants to know baby rules, which is probably what often happens in language classes, the question would now become: how can a teacher help the student?

An obvious approach would be: let's have a list of common verbs in this pattern (and those that do not follow this patter)

I guess there must be some lists out there on some websites.

BTW, hello! @JimReynolds

IͶΔ

@Jim I'm gonna kill you.

Damkerng T.

o_O

IͶΔ

@DamkerngT. meta.ell.stackexchange.com/posts/2924/revisions

Damkerng T.

LOL

Jim Reynolds

(Speaking as a teacher of English as a foreign language.)

Damkerng T.

18:46

looking around to see how TEFL deal with dative alternation...

@JimReynolds nods -- It's what many learners want anyway.

But like a lot of stuff people buy, they don't always buy stuff that's good for them.

Jim Reynolds

Has @IͶΔ consumed some psychosis-inducing substance in a school lab? He's threatened my life just now.

So true, @Dam. By the way, would you like to order some belly-reducing gel from my website?

Damkerng T.

LOL

I think I'm gonna pass. :-)

Jim Reynolds

The more you sit at your computer and eat, the MORE you lose!

:D

IͶΔ

@JimReynolds The threat is real . . .

Jim Reynolds

OK. I respect your decision. But please enter your credit card number to confirm your opt-out.

IͶΔ

18:49

Psychos don't threaten real-ly.

Jim Reynolds

O.O

Damkerng T.

@JimReynolds Well, do you have a pencil and paper ready?

Jim Reynolds

Gasps! Struggles to gather the materials!!

Sure!

Go ahead.

Damkerng T.

LOL

Jim Reynolds

lol;

I suppose it's encrypted so that only robot-validated vendors can actually execute transactions. :'(

Damkerng T.

18:52

Well, I changed my mind. Sorry. :P

IͶΔ

Flags @Jim as spam

Damkerng T.

Haha!

IͶΔ

I put my threat into action.

Damkerng T.

[chat] [ell.se] [meta.se] [su] [tour] [ask] [answer] [FAQ] *Slanted* **text** is ***really slanted*** [help] [tag:grammar] [meta-tag:discussion] [edit] and that's about all the useful tricks you can do with comments, I think.

-> English Language Learners Chat English Language Learners Meta Stack Exchange Super User tour How to Ask How to Answer FAQ Slanted text is really slanted help center grammar discussion edit and that's about all the useful tricks you can do with comments, I think. — IͶΔ 2 hours ago

Those shorthands can be very useful. I can't remember all of them.

Jim Reynolds

Hmm... shorthand as countable noun?

Damkerng T.

18:56

I'm not sure!

Jim Reynolds

Me either!

IͶΔ

@DamkerngT. BTW; the stuff in brackets is case-insensitive. And Stack Overflow Super User Server Fault redirect to SO, SU, and SF, respectively. Wow, that's helpful MAR.

[so] [su] [sf]

Jim Reynolds

I seem to want to expect "Those shorthand ___ tricks? codes? are . . . "

Damkerng T.

I guess my "shorthand" is not the shorthand in standard senses.

IͶΔ

Those short hands.

Jim Reynolds

18:57

Is it hard to find short gloves?

Damkerng T.

@JimReynolds Nice workaround. Thanks!

I wonder what they call these [so] [su] [sf] [chat] [tour] in the official SE reference manuals.

They must call them something, right?

IͶΔ

Automagical comment link thingies.

Damkerng T.

Hmm... they don't even mention them in the FAQ.

Undocumented feature?

IͶΔ

Of course. Only the most boring stuff go to the FAQs.

Damkerng T.

LOL

Damkerng T.

19:16

Ahh... dative alternation is more complicated than I expected.

It's not only about which verb, it's also about which meaning.

> a) The cathedral clearly owes a great deal to French design.

> b) The cathedral clearly owes French design a great deal.

a) works; b) doesn't.

Too complicated a topic!

(for me to write a good answer)

Damkerng T.

19:44

(cont.) But there are more subtle points that allow (or disallow) this "dative alternative" (aka "dative movement"). Sometimes it's important what kinds of the objects are (people, or things, for that matter), sometimes it depends on which sense of the verb we use. Compare: a) The cathedral clearly owes a great deal to French design, b) The cathedral clearly owes French design a great deal. Only a) is a valid sentence. — Damkerng T. 8 mins ago

So I shared. :-)

Damkerng T.

19:54

0

Q: this trip is overnight?

Its grammatically correct to say this overnight trip but is it possible to say this trip is overnight? And what is the difference between It happened overnight It happened over the night

grammar

This one is hard...

If I choose to upvote any answer, I probably should upvote all.

So I decide to upvote none.

> He had not slept very well over the past several nights and woke early to the sound of the last rains that had pummeled the coast over the night before.

> A Long Way Home By David A. Loney

Anonymous

21:08

@DamkerngT. You might ask a British English speaker.

Damkerng T.

> independent.co.uk/news/science/…

Oh!

> Intelligent people's brains wired differently to those with fewer intellectual abilities, says study

Anonymous

Neat!

Anonymous

21:51

@JimReynolds It doesn't bother me, but I think the safest advice is to avoid saying it. I've seen people get pretty bent out of shape over being thanked in advance.

Anonymous

@tchrist I have chat logs from most of my lifetime :-) It's fun to see which words I use in casual chat, sometimes. And it changes over time.

Anonymous

Introspection is hard, though, which is particularly tricky because it seems like it isn't hard.

Anonymous

Which is of course the Introspection Illusion.

Anonymous

I don't have a lot of formal written correspondence. The closest thing I have is email archives.

Damkerng T.

22:30

Most of my non-template-based correspondence is a bit on the funny side. :-)

I mean grammatically.

Damkerng T.

22:49

0

A: What should I answer to "after you"

The correct is to say "thank you" and to go through. Insisting that a woman, older person, etc., go through before you, when they have expressed a preference that you go first, would be less respectful than honoring their preference. I once almost got into a deadlock situation in an elevator wi...

Hmm...

I don't know much about this.

In my culture, people in higher rungs get off the lift (elevator) first.

But it's not serious, at all.

Anonymous

What if we required people have at least 10 reputation on the current site in order to vote on a hot network question?

Damkerng T.

Good idea!

I think a higher bar is even better.

Hmm... I see, on the current site implies that the free 100 points are excluded.

Anonymous

Yes.

Anonymous

It's the same sort of requirement that comes from protecting a question.

Anonymous

I guess we should we require 10 reputation on the current site to vote or comment.

Damkerng T.

23:01

On the other hand, sometimes I run into an SO answer that I know that people overlooked, and I want to upvote it.

I think I joined (but I'm not sure if I've joined SO) SO to upvote an answer.

Anonymous

My idea was that this would only affect hot network questions.

Anonymous

So you could still run across an answer on SO that solved whatever problem you were looking to solve and upvote it.

Damkerng T.

But not HNQs. Got it.

I think it's a good idea, but I'm not quite sure about the downside.

Anonymous

The HNQ effect right now feels like a pretty major downside of the status quo.

Damkerng T.

nods -- If I'm right, I think many stacks get new members because of HNQs.

skull petrol

23:11

True dat^

Damkerng T.

It's like cake, or cheese. I think some people like it. Some even really like it. The downside is its effect which could distort the votes in the HNQ questions.

Anonymous

It inflates vote counts. Often, it inflates the votes on answers that would get votes anyway, so the difference is that a good answer ends up at +50 and the bad answer ends up at +5, rather than +5 and +0.

Damkerng T.

nods

Anonymous

Other times, a bad answer or okay-ish answer gets posted first, and its vote count gets inflated, and by the time someone posts a good answer it has no chance to catch up.

Damkerng T.

Very true!

skull petrol

23:13

^

Across the network

skull petrol

23:31

I like to call it the "herd mentality."

:-)

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