Language Overflow

Jim Reynolds

02:57

@Catija Not to be pedantic, but it's interesting how almost all ELL's in Taiwan learn that "until now" means "still" (ongoing).

(And that it can't mean something that was true until now/recently.) So, I've never won anything until now simply = I've never won anything.

@Cat Congratulations!

tchrist

@JimReynolds Your fault?

Catija

03:43

@JimReynolds That's weird.

@JimReynolds Thanks!

Jim Reynolds

@tchrist I once had a friend from a nation south of the US and from the tiniest of villages in the sparsest regions of the Sonoran desert, which such countries may tend to incorporate, unshackled by a modern education, he generated or repeated the most interesting explanations for things. He once asked me if I knew why "Chinese people lost the war". I didn't. Turns out they are less well-equipped to navigate aircraft. "Little eyes", he summed up.

CopperKettle

05:10

I'm voting to close this question as off-topic because it involves interpreting literature, which is open to multiple interpretations, and in particular one that employs a particularly compressed and cramped (one wants to say pretentious and (up)chuckable) style. — GoDucks 11 hours ago

That's strange. I liked "The Shipping News" very much.

Catija

That comment should get edited. Judgmental content isn't very nice.

CopperKettle

I went to Goodreads, and the comments there are black and white. "A brilliant book!" "A piece of crap!" That usually indicates that a book is a piece of crap. Or that it is brilliant. No level-headed comments.

@Catija Oh, he only said it in passing, so I'm not against that.

Jim Reynolds

Ultimately, we could never keep a question asking about the meaning of a text if we deem it all as the product of a producer's unfathomable intention. We can reasonably speculate as to what's meant here or how more knowledgeable people would interpret it. There is no policy deeming questions with "multiple interpretations" as off-topic. Voting to reopen. — Jim Reynolds 1 min ago

CopperKettle

I liked her language, very poetic, in The Shipping News.

> Consider the following sentence; “... oilcloth the colour of insect wings” [pg 57]. Do you feel that information as to the colour of the oilcloth has been imparted to you?

(from a critical reviewer)

This is moronic. Why should I care about the exact color. The phrase is great, and the reader could imagine the most typical color of the oilcloth.

CopperKettle

07:29

@Cop The question focuses on the meaning of leap in this context. I don't see how longer days necessarily imply leaping or hands "going up" in any way that shortening days in autumn would not. Couldn't time leap just as well toward cloudy evenings as clear? Unless, she wants to characterize time as being in a hurry to arrive at particularly pleasant evenings, as one denotation of leaping involves eagerness. Here, however, perhaps the best of us speculate, but you have a much greater poetic sensibility than I. — Jim Reynolds 4 mins ago

Thanks for according me with a greater poetic sensibility! (0:

Sometimes I push the leave link on the right, but my avatar stays in the chat.

> "Nothing was defined beyond where the ground steepened just in front, where the tripwire graced its snarebarbs with tinselled moistnesses."

Jim Reynolds

@CopperKettle I frequently run the eject CopperKettle script I've written, but it's quite buggy and you often linger around like yesterday's _____.

Fill in the blank for a chance to win today's literary contest.

skull petrol

08:57

news?

CopperKettle

09:24

"How was the information I provided yesterday? Did you review it all?" "Yes, all (the information) was fine." — Rathony 1 min ago

I wonder if Rathony is correct here.

Anonymous

corpus.byu.edu/coca/?c=coca&q=45117126

CopperKettle

I really should abstain from posting answers, it takes a trainload of time.

Especially for a non-native speaker like me.

@snailboat Thank you!

"All was quiet on the Western front".

Anonymous

It can be hard for native speakers to post answers, too.

user116848

Good morning @snailboat @CopperKettle!

Anonymous

Good morning!

CopperKettle

09:32

@Arrowfar Good afternoon!

user116848

How are we all? :)

CopperKettle

I'm better.

Started jogging again. Maybe I'll start even bicycling.

user116848

I have a bit of sore throat and fever so been sleeping a lot :)

Anonymous

@CopperKettle I got a rowing machine!

CopperKettle

The weather at last is sunny.

@snailboat I envy you.

@snailboat Have you recently received it?

Anonymous

09:34

It's great, it's aerobic and resistance training at the same time.

CopperKettle

@Arrowfar I wish you to get well! I hope it's not that newly fangled influenza

user116848

heh

Anonymous

@CopperKettle I got it a week ago, and as a result, I've now got it.

CopperKettle

@snailboat Yes, aerobic exercise is great for the brain, the hippocampal neurogenesis and stuff.. memory.

@snailboat (0:

user116848

@snailboat Congrats!

CopperKettle

09:36

I should clean my bicycle and take up bicycling. Make some pictures of snow-covered Urals.

This year's February is expected to be exceptionally warm.

And you need memory to learn all those squiggly Japanese words. (0:

user116848

The weather here is average these days. Not very cold.

user116848

Cycling is fun.

user116848

I think I should start riding too.

CopperKettle

> No product here the barren hills afford,
But man and steel, the soldier and his sword.
No vernal blooms their torpid rocks array,
But winter, lingering, chills the lap of May;
No zephyr fondly sues the mountain’s breast,
But meteors glare and stormy glooms invest.

user116848

@CopperKettle I liked you previous avatar much better. Well this one is nice too.

user116848

09:44

@snailboat So snails are you like building muscles? ;-)

CopperKettle

@Arrowfar This is the best, because it's antropomorphic and made with love. (0:

user116848

Yeah.

user116848

:)

CopperKettle

Good-bye, @V.V.!

user116848

Good bye @V.V. @CopperKettle.

CopperKettle

09:46

I should be doing something too. Be back later. (0:

Jim Reynolds

All can represent a collection conceptualized as unitary, or a collection conceptualized as a multiplicity, no?

user116848

Bye @snailboat.

Jim Reynolds

Oh, wait. I don't have a handle on all is vs all were yet.

@Cop Answering questions let's us think and learn in a powerful, perhaps unparalled, way. Still, each of us may be relatively better or poorer judges of whether we get good returns on our invrstments of time and energy in doing so!

CopperKettle

lets

skull petrol

10:08

(0:

V.V.

10:22

Hi,everybody! Hope you are having good time!

Or a good time?

user116848

Howdy V.V!

V.V.

Fine, thanks, but the weather is not very good today.

user116848

Very cold?

V.V.

Gloomy, rainy.

user116848

Here it is about 25 C now.

user116848

10:26

I love rain.

V.V.

Plus?

user116848

Yes plus of course.

V.V.

I am sorry I forgot where it is.

user116848

Um where is what? Location? Subcontinent, Pakistan.

V.V.

What's the time there?

user116848

10:33

3:32 pm.

user116848

And where are you from?

V.V.

Yes, I remember. Funny, so near.Russia. It's 1.30 pm

user116848

ah I see

user116848

Cool

V.V.

Are there mountains?

user116848

10:36

Lots of.

user116848

And there?

V.V.

@JimReynolds, it's high time to correct my mistakes. Sorry, perhaps, you are busy.

None in my region, only hills,perhaps

Jim Reynolds

@V.V. Hope you are having a good time!

V.V.

We are having quite an unusual February this year. It's warm like in March.They say March is going to be frosty

A bit depressed

But I am OK

What about you?

Did you check FB?

Jim Reynolds

10:53

@V.V. No. I've been too busy arguing here:

2

Q: The meaning of "leap" here

It was spring. Sodden ground, smell of earth. The wind beat through twigs, gave off a greenish odor like struck flints. Coltsfoot in the ditches; furious dabs of tulips stuttering in gardens. Slanting rain. Clock hands leapt to pellucid evenings. The sky riffled like cards in a chalk-w...

word-meaning

Did you friend me or request to join my group?

V.V.

Need some practice of English, what do you suggest?

You can answer there

Jim Reynolds

11:13

Answer where?

V.V.

Messenger

Jim Reynolds

Oh. I'm a little confused. Suddenly Messenger disappeared from my phone. Let me try to check it.

V.V.

11:29

There's no hurry. Besides I am constantly losing connection

Jim Reynolds

Ok. I saw it now. You can now accept my friend request.

My last 27 Facebook friends were all murdered. But that is just coincidence!

Damkerng T.

12:14

@tchrist I just saw it in another room. Happy birthday!

tchrist

Thanks. This one's a rerun. I had thought I already turned this age.

Damkerng T.

2

Q: The meaning of "leap" here

It was spring. Sodden ground, smell of earth. The wind beat through twigs, gave off a greenish odor like struck flints. Coltsfoot in the ditches; furious dabs of tulips stuttering in gardens. Slanting rain. Clock hands leapt to pellucid evenings. The sky riffled like cards in a chalk-w...

word-meaning

> It was spring. Sodden ground, smell of earth. The wind beat through twigs, gave off a greenish odor like struck flints. Coltsfoot in the ditches; furious dabs of tulips stuttering in gardens. Slanting rain. Clock hands leapt to pellucid evenings. The sky riffled like cards in a chalk-white hand.

The DST thing didn't occur to me when I read that passage. I think the writer is just describing a scene and this is how she tells the reader what time of day it was, along with how it was like.

CopperKettle

12:39

0

Q: Why spell pronounced "|sbel|" while in dictionary is "|spel|"?

It's very clear in WikiDictionary it pronounced as |sbel|, but in dictionary it's |spel|. Could anybody please give me some information about that?

pronunciation

A question for Snails, she's the expert on pronunciation.

Damkerng T.

I think I can guess. Let me see...

Yep. It's an unaspirated /p/, and that may sound like a "b" to many.

Sayakiss

366 2 14

word-meaning word-usage sentence-construction sentence-meaning meaning-in-context metaphor objects

LOL -- The profile says "I thought you'd never see my profile." :-)

(I was looking for Sayakiss's first language.)

@DamkerngT. My first language is Chinese. — Sayakiss 31 secs ago

A-ha!

looking around for more info about pinyin and Chinese phonology...

(But off the top of my head, I think Chinese pinyin "b" ~ unaspirated /p/.)

Anonymous

13:00

Technically, there's no contrast between /b/ and /p/ in that position. The contrast is neutralized.

Damkerng T.

nods -- Is there a sequence /sb/ in English?

Anonymous

Only across syllable boundaries.

Damkerng T.

Would you pronounce Windows XB (if it existed) identically to Windows XP?

(I think it's still a normal aspirated /p/ in XP.)

Anonymous

Yes, definitely aspirated, no, generally they would not be pronounced the same way.

Anonymous

Things can get a little muddy when the /s.[ptk]/ sequence crosses a syllable boundary, but the fortis–lenis contrast isn't neutralized as a rule unless they're part of the same syllable.

Anonymous

13:11

Disperse and disburse are typically not pronounced the same way.

Anonymous

But that's in careful pronunciation.

Anonymous

You might not be able to distinguish all real world examples that "should" be distinguished without further context.

Anonymous

Try saying disgust and discussed.

StoneyB

@DamkerngT. "Between pairs of stops or affricates having the same place and manner of articulation, the primary distinction is not voiced vs. voiceless (as in French), but unaspirated vs. aspirated (as in Icelandic). The unaspirated stops and affricates may however become voiced in weak syllables (see Syllable reduction, below). ...

... Such pairs are represented in the pinyin system mostly using letters which (in European languages) principally denote voiceless/voiced pairs, with the "voiceless" letter representing an aspirated sound, and the "voiced" letter an unaspirated sound – for example, pinyin p and b represent respectively /pʰ/ and /p/ (aspirated and unaspirated "p" sounds)." --Wikipedia

You nailed it!

Damkerng T.

@snailboat I mishear that like a lot lately! (Especially in House of Cards where a lots of things could be discussed and disgusting at the same time!)

Anonymous

13:15

@DamkerngT. Luckily, language is highly redundant, and we can generally tell the difference from context even if it's not clear from pronunciation :-)

Anonymous

Context can make us "hear" the right sounds, even if we wouldn't be able to distinguish them properly out of context!

Damkerng T.

> Be about to
We use the modal expression be about to as an adjective in the modal expression *be about to* to refer to something that will happen very soon in the future: [...]

> dictionary.cambridge.org/grammar/british-grammar/about

Anonymous

For what it's worth, Ladefoged's allophone rule is very simply stated and doesn't mention syllable boundaries: "Voiceless stops /p, t, k/ are unaspirated after /s/ in words such as spew, stew, skew."

Damkerng T.

in ELL's Cabin, 6 mins ago, by I don't know who I am.

He is about to open the door.
"About"is adj, followed by infinitive to.

StoneyB

@snailboat Polyani calls it 'personal knowledge'. Like the blind man's tapstick, it's an extension of our perceptive system: sound comes into the black box at one end and 'words' emerge at the other, and we pay no attention to what happens inside the box.

Anonymous

13:19

@DamkerngT. Can you think of any adjective that can substitute for be about to in He was about to phone the police?

Damkerng T.

(I thought it should be an adverb, but now I'm not sure.)

Anonymous

This adjective will probably have to bear tense and take a bare infinitival complement, so it will be rather unusual as adjectives go.

Damkerng T.

@snailboat Idon'tknowwhoIam suggested happy.

Anonymous

@DamkerngT. He happy phone the police? Really?

Damkerng T.

@snailboat No, happy only in the place of about.

Anonymous

13:20

@DamkerngT. Oh! I see.

Damkerng T.

He was happy to phone the police.

Anonymous

I must have misread.

Anonymous

I thought describing be about to as an adjective sounded particularly crazy, but I went with it :-)

Anonymous

@StoneyB Not only do we not pay attention, we can't pay attention to all the details. Black box indeed!

StoneyB

@snailboat I'd call about an ordinary preposition, and about to phone the police a time-locative complement.

Damkerng T.

13:21

I think it's written not very carefully in the Cambridge dictionary, but I guess its point is that about in be about to is an adjective.

StoneyB

@snailboat Yes! Another of Polanyi's favorite examples is riding a bicycle: if we pay attention to how we stay upright we fall off!

Anonymous

Happy and about do seem similar. But we can also find differences:

Anonymous

> He was very happy to phone the police.

Anonymous

> *He was very about to phone the police.

Damkerng T.

Ah! The very test!

Anonymous

13:23

> He was happy.

Anonymous

> *He was about.

Anonymous

(At least in the relevant meaning, about doesn't work that way. In another meaning, it does.)

Damkerng T.

nods -- In that meaning, it's more like a preposition.

Anonymous

@DamkerngT. The very test only works one way. It tells us that whatever it modifies is gradable, but not all adjectives are gradable. Most are, but not all. So some adjectives fail the very test.

Anonymous

So we have to consider more evidence than that when deciding whether something is an adjective.

Damkerng T.

13:26

@StoneyB I wasn't sure between adverb and preposition right from the start, but calling it an "adjective" blew me away!

Anonymous

@DamkerngT. Let's make another comparison:

Anonymous

> He was going to phone the police.

Anonymous

Would it be useful to call going an adjective?

Anonymous

You can substitute happy for it and come up with a grammatical sentence.

Damkerng T.

I think not! (But what is it?)

Anonymous

13:28

Well, it looks like some sort of verb form.

Damkerng T.

Welcome to the room! @Idon'tknowwhoIam.

I don't know who I am.

Thanks sir.

I am really confused regarding this sentence.

StoneyB

@snailboat Are prepositions crypto-verbs?

I don't know who I am.

I am about to open the door.
I think "about"is an adjective here which is followed by "to"

Similarly, I am happy to see you.
Happy adj.

StoneyB

@Idon'tknowwhoIam. I am hoping to see you?

tchrist

13:34

What then would an about person be?

Damkerng T.

(A-ha! Another similar word that is strongly "not an adjective", 'soon'. "He was soon to phone the police.")

tchrist

Coerced prepositions better serve as adverbs than as adjectives.

I don't know who I am.

@StoneyB. This question has been shared on main site.
I need your attention.

StoneyB

@tchrist Mmm ... not diagnostic. About might be a predicative-only adjective, like awake. (It's not; but it might be.)

I don't know who I am.

This is a confusing question.

StoneyB

13:38

Like awake, it's historically a preposition phrase.

tchrist

I was just going to explain that.

We ran through a zillion of those here at one point.

StoneyB

Yah. I think they're a lot of fun.

I don't know who I am.

@StoneyB. I want you to add your fruitful comments.

tchrist

That time when Snails took such delight in akimbo.

🍒 🍒 🍒

We have a winner!

tchrist

14:05

0

Q: Live or living wich is common error?

(a) I am living in London for a few months (b) I have been living in London for a few months what is the difference? Is (a) a common error?

neologisms

Yes. Horribly common.

But not by native speakers, ever.

StoneyB

@Idon'tknowwhoIam. I advise you to ignore the Cambridge categorization. The entire preposition phrase serves a syntactic function in this sentence which traditional grammar categorizes as adjectival; but that doesn't make about an adjective.

tchrist

Like "This is the first time I ever see such a thing" is also a common NNS error.

I'm trying to decide between sprucing up the question, just plain closing it, finding a dupe, or asking it to emigrate to ELL.

Perhaps more than one of the above.

StoneyB

@tchrist (a) is an error if what is meant is (b); but it may not be an error in other circumstances; so don't close it unless you find an older Q that draws that distinction.

tchrist

@StoneyB I've found relateds, but not dupes. Yes, rescue readings for (a) are possible if a different sense is intended, but I somewhat(?) doubt them ones that a learner is apt to come across very often, nor need.

Damkerng T.

I wonder if I am living in London for a few months can be construed as "I'm going to live in London for a few months".

StoneyB

14:14

"I'm living in London for a few months, but I expect to be posted to Paris eventually".

tchrist

@DamkerngT. That’s the first one that came to mind, although I think I might use "I’ll be living ..." there.

Damkerng T.

nods

tchrist

The way English uses perfect constructions, and the way it uses -ing words, are both unusual in many ways.

3

Q: Present perfect and present perfect continuous for actions in progress

My grammar book says that both present perfect and present perfect continuous, when used with "for, since, etc", express a situation that began in the past and continues to the present. When used without 'since' or 'for', present perfect expresses the action that has happened before now and the p...

verbs tenses present-perfect progressive-aspect

StoneyB

@tchrist I know the habeo perfect evolved in very different directions in German and French; I've read that the Spanish use is in some respects more English-like, but you will know more about that than I. The -ing form is itself syncretic, and adopted some Celtic uses along the way. Both are still evolving.

tchrist

Yes, Spanish uses its -ing gerund (from the Latin gerundive, so -andus, -endus, -iendus) adverbially to form progressives very much as English does. So does Italian and Portuguese.

The Celtic connection to the weird things that English does with its progressives is something I always have to hunt up for some reason.

But the descendent of habeo used for perfects is pretty much the same in Spanish as it is in French.

I don't know who I am.

14:29

Please use simple words, I can't understand your discussions.

tchrist

Which word isn't in the dictionary?

I don't know who I am.

It is Greek to understand your conversation.

All the words are available in dictionary, but who looks it up simultaneously?

Catija

@Idon'tknowwhoIam. I wouldn't worry about it too much. I'm a native and I still don't understand most of what they're talking about.

tchrist

McWhorter, perhaps.

I don't know who I am.

@Catija. I want to note their each and every comment, but what to say.
They are genuine the British.

Damkerng T.

14:34

@Idon'tknowwhoIam. Try to consider it a good thing to be exposed to real English. :D

tchrist

> John McWhorter (2008) argues for the progressive gerund in English having its roots in Celtic languages and Johan Van Der Auwera (2002) both agrees and disagrees with McWhorter’s theories and argues further the Celtic origin of English periphrastic do. Markku Filppula (2000) discovers embedded inversion of modals, nouns, and verbs in some dialects of English have some Celtic syntactical influence.

I don't know who I am.

@DamkerngT. It is better to learn Arabic rather than English. O-0

Catija

@Idon'tknowwhoIam. better or easier?

Damkerng T.

@Idon'tknowwhoIam. Aww... IMHO, all languages have their own charm.

I don't know who I am.

@Catija. It is up to you.

tchrist

14:37

Ok, that's a rich article.

Catija

@Idon'tknowwhoIam. No. The two words mean very different things. "Better" means that it is more useful to learn Arabic than to learn English. "Easier" means that attaining fluency in Arabic is simpler than in English.

I don't know who I am.

@DamkerngT. When I make mistakes, I do not touch my books.
I mean , I do not read Grammar.
I think ar the moment, leave it.

At*

I am very worried.
One of the guys was fighting with me on a chat room.

On Learn English & Usage.

Damkerng T.

Do you mean fight-fight or just an argument over something?

Catija

@DamkerngT. It was you, wasn't it...

tchrist

> “For language is the armory of the human mind, and at once it contains the trophies of its past and the weapons of its future conquests.” —Samuel Taylor Coleridge

Damkerng T.

14:41

@Catija Me? With @Idon'tknowwhoIam. Nooo! :-)

I don't know who I am.

My mind got hot.
I wanted to fight as well but @D@DamkerngT. Controlled my both hands.

Damkerng T.

Hah!

I don't know who I am.

Khekhekhe

Catija

@DamkerngT. I just saw the cabin, so I thought maybe that was what he was talking about.

Damkerng T.

@Catija I think he meant somewhere else, not anywhere on SE.

tchrist

14:42

The citation is from Coleridge’s Biographia Literaria.

I don't know who I am.

@tchrist. What are you trying to say?

Damkerng T.

@Idon'tknowwhoIam. Anyway, my idea about argumentation is that it can be really fruitful if you keep it healthy.

Catija

@DamkerngT. Oh... maybe he means one of the ELU rooms... based on his previous message "On Learn English & Usage"?

tchrist

@Idon'tknowwhoIam. ?

Damkerng T.

@Catija Probably, but I really don't know.

I don't know who I am.

14:44

@Catija. Yes.
I wanted to have friendship with him but he got angry at me.
He talked as if I were his enemy, or servant.

@tchrist. Where do you come from?

Catija

@Idon'tknowwhoIam. ELU is scary and they don't like learners much. It's not for learning English, it's for discussing it in-depth.

tchrist

@Idon'tknowwhoIam. I come from a Good Place to a land full of Tumbled Rocks.

I don't know who I am.

@Catija. They themselves advise the members to ask any query there but when we ask them they get angry.

@tchrist. Where does it locate?
What's the name of your country?

tchrist

I live in Colorado.

I don't know who I am.

@DamkerngT. Sir.
You yourself saw that moment.

@tchrist. Nice to know.

Damkerng T.

14:49

@Idon'tknowwhoIam. Wait, are you talking about the chat a few days ago.

I don't know who I am.

@DamkerngT. Sir.
Yeah,

@tchrist. What do you do?

Damkerng T.

I can't remember anything went wrong. Maybe I should read the transcript.

I don't know who I am.

@DamkerngT. Sir.
If someone gets angry at me now, I will play havoc on main site.
Khekhekhe

Damkerng T.

@Idon'tknowwhoIam. Please don't! (I know you're kidding. You're kidding, right?)

I don't know who I am.

@DamkerngT. Hahaha ha ha ha ha

IͶΔ

14:53

Looks as lively-ly-ly-ly boring as usual.

StoneyB

@tchrist About is a weapon-grade preposition.

I don't know who I am.

@DamkerngT. This is a very good formula.
It will be applied one day.

@StoneyB. Sir.
What is weapon grade preposition?

StoneyB

@Idon'tknowwhoIam. A smart-ass remark alluding to @tchrist's Coleridge quote.

I don't know who I am.

@StoneyB. Is it often used in this term?

tchrist

@Idon'tknowwhoIam. Colorado, whose silvery streams spring from crimson crags to carve their inexorable meander through the badlands down to seas unimaginably distant, quenching the thirsty continent as they go.

Catija

14:56

@Idon'tknowwhoIam. No. It's a joke.

I don't know who I am.

@tchrist. Thanks.

StoneyB

@All_and_sundry: Discuss in 8,000 words or less: "Prepositions are defective verbs characterized by a single uninflected non-finite form".

I don't know who I am.

@Catija. Joking aside. Lol

StoneyB

@tchrist Do any of them still actually reach those seas?

Catija

@Idon'tknowwhoIam. ... "Weapons-grade" is certainly a phrase... but it is not generally used with "preposition".

Weapons-grade

A weapons-grade substance is one that is pure enough to be used to make a nuclear weapon or has properties that make it particularly suitable for nuclear weapons use. Plutonium and uranium in grades normally used in nuclear weapons are the most common examples. (These nuclear materials have other categorizations based on their purity.) Only fissile isotopes of certain elements have the potential for use in nuclear weapons. For such use, the concentration of fissile isotopes uranium-235 and plutonium-239 in the element used must be sufficiently high. Uranium from natural sources is enriched by isotope...

Damkerng T.

14:59

@StoneyB Hmm... Prepositions as defective verbs...

I don't know who I am.

@Catija. Shukriya.

tchrist

@StoneyB Many, just no longer the River Eponymous.

Catija

@Idon'tknowwhoIam. I don't know what that means.

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