Language Overflow

CowperKettle

06:40

> Then. Now.

Damkerng T.

:D

Mick

07:07

@CowperKettle Où sont les neiges d'antan?

QuokMoon

07:20

CowperKettle Namaste Ji

Damkerng T.

07:41

> In English, “definite” really means presumed known to the listener, whether by prior knowledge (“the man you met yesterday”), uniqueness in the universe (“the sun is setting”), uniqueness in a given setting (“the battery is dead” – cars do not usually have more than one battery), or general knowledge that a named class exists (“the dog is the friend of man”).

> “Indefinite” really means presumed unknown to the listener, whether by absence of prior knowledge (“a man you should meet is Mr. Blank”), nonexistence of a nameable referent (“Bill is looking for a wife”), or nonexistence of any referent (“George couldn’t see an aardvark anywhere”). In other words, the two classes are systematically distinguished by the distribution of the and a/an.

> --Roots of language, Derek Bickerton

That's quite succinct.

"For the child to make the SNSD [Specific Non-Specific Distinction] as early and as successfully as he does [at about the age of three], he would have to be somehow preprogrammed to make it."

Hmm...

Anonymous

That's pretty close, but it doesn't quite cover the cases given by Birner & Ward 1994, so it needs a little bit of refinement IMO.

Anonymous

I don't think "uniqueness" is necessarily the best criterion, although it works the large majority of the time.

Anonymous

I think you have to generalize it slightly to include cases where the distinctions that can be made are (pragmatically) not relevant to the discussion.

Anonymous

07:57

But it's understandable since your quote is from 1981, before Birner & Ward 1994

Anonymous

There's a lot of research published on definiteness.

Anonymous

Bickerton's definition is good but we can refine it slightly, I think :-)

Anonymous

I like when it's explained in terms of identifiability.

Damkerng T.

08:23

@snailplane Yes, I think identifiability is a really nice way to put it. By the way, Bickerton's discussion that definite is not specific is also nice.

Good morning! (I suppose)

I'm not sure if I agree with the innateness of the SNSD, though.

But maybe he's right. It might be innate, but it's not at the surface level of the language (English).

!!translate/Où sont les neiges d'antan

Ellbot

fr: Où sont les neiges d'antan
en: Where are the snows of yesteryear

Damkerng T.

Oh, nice! :)

0

Q: What does "Fanny By Gaslight" mean?

Have anyone read a book of British writer Michael Sadleir "Fanny by Gaslight"? Or seen a movie of the same name? I Googled all about the title, but never met a clear explanation what does it mean. There isn't any gaslight in the movie (I didn't read the book) and people offer different theories

Ohh

I didn't know this meaning of fanny!

Wouldn't that make Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac sound a bit awkward-ish?

Hmm...

> ..., they often contain figures of speech or even bad grammar (Gone Girl) to attract attention.

> ell.stackexchange.com/a/96727/3281

Is Gone Girl really bad grammar?

Anonymous

I don't know if I buy the arguments for innate grammar.

Anonymous

Hmm, not sure what to say about gone girl…

Anonymous

I wouldn't say it, but is it perhaps dialectal?

Damkerng T.

08:38

I hadn't heard it before this book (or actually, this movie) either. I remember I thought it sounded pretty odd, but quite understandable.

Anonymous

Where gone is a participial adjective meaning 'missing' used attributively?

Damkerng T.

Yes. But after watching the movie, I think it can have more than one meaning.

Anonymous

I think I'm standard dialects it tends to be predicative.

Anonymous

In, not I'm. Stupid phone.

Anonymous

What other meanings?

Damkerng T.

08:40

She went missing, but she planned to do that herself, to get whatever she wanted.

Basically, she made her husband look bad for quite a while, and then murdered a man who supposedly kidnapped her (but did not), and showed up some weeks later.

So I guess, we can read it as "a girl (woman) who went too far".

Or "whose mind was gone".

Anonymous

I see. I don't know if there's much to be gained by calling it ungrammatical.

Damkerng T.

(Everyone thought the husband murdered her in the beginning.)

Anonymous

But it doesn't really fit the way people talk normally in the dialects I'm familiar with, so it seems like an innovative, presumably intentional use of gone. Not an error.

Damkerng T.

nods

Anonymous

But also not how people normally talk.

Anonymous

08:46

Banana salsa. Thoughts? :-)

Damkerng T.

I didn't know this phrase! :-)

Anonymous

I made it up.

Damkerng T.

Oh! :D

Anonymous

Salsa with banana in it. What do you think?

Damkerng T.

Hmm... I'm not sure.

Do they go together well? (Have you tried it yet?)

Anonymous

08:47

Only in my mind.

Damkerng T.

Wow, there are some recipes of it on the web, and with good ratings at that!

Anonymous

I got a craving today for banana and tomato.

Damkerng T.

Go for it! (I like them both, BTW!)

Anonymous

Banana and salsa, together at last! :-)

Damkerng T.

Yay! :D

Sometimes happiness is in simple things. :-)

I wonder if the question I offered a bounty on will get more answers.

10

Q: Do I need to add "the" into this sentence?

The bases for growth in the real estate industry include sustainable economic growth, rapid urbanization due to expanded investment on the transportation and infrastructure system, high demand for property due to growth in per capita income, and increase in foreign investment. Assuming there...

articles lists

Only 9 hours left.

Anonymous

08:55

Tricky!

Damkerng T.

:D

Jude

I offered my upvote

Damkerng T.

Hehe! Thanks!

mike

09:07

banana salsa sounds surprisingly good

Damkerng T.

@mike Hey, what a nice hat! Up top!

mike

haha - thank you :)

CowperKettle

10:18

> Will you stop smoking for me? -- Yes, my love.
Will you stop drinking for me? -- Yes, my dear.
Will you stop watching football for me? -- Yes, my darling.
Will you give up your life for me? -- Sure! Who needs such a life!

Damkerng T.

11:29

1

Q: Does present perfect with "stolen" mean it is not stolen for ever?

By the way, will you get other copies of the new lumpy releases as the first batch [have been stolen / was stolen]? If I choose present perfect does it mean that there might be a possibility that the items in the stolen batch might be recovered? If I choose past simple, does that mean tha...

present-perfect

I think we can generalize this problem like this:

a) whether or not the past participle form can work as an adjective in be VERBen (i.e., it's state-like, as opposed to the passive use)

b) whether or not the verb is punctual or durative (or eventive vs. stative)

If a) and b) are clear, I think it'd be easy for any learner to choose whether they'd use was VERBen or has been VERBen.

But unfortunately, like everything in language, it's perhaps not easy to tell.

yubraj sharma

13:34

What is an English word for a person who can't tolerate even a little pain in his/her body?

Hello everyone !!!! Hope All fine.

Mick

13:47

Agliophobia is the medical term.

QuokMoon

May be "anguished " have similar meaning ?

macmillandictionary.com/dictionary/british/…

Jude

14:04

Shall we go to a cafe?

or shall we hit to a theater?

I have noticed that recently I was using many sentences which starts with or

How can I ask what I want in that question without starting off with or ?

user2684291

@Jude "hit to a theater" doesn't sound idiomatic to me. Why exactly d'you discriminate against "or" at the beginning of a sentence? :>

@snailplane I know, b-but...

Anonymous

14:27

It wasn't criticism :-) Just information. Feel free to speak however you'd like.

Anonymous

@yubrajsharma I don't know if there are any words in common use with that meaning.

Anonymous

There are some colloquial terms people might use to poke fun at someone for their low pain tolerance, maybe :-)

Anonymous

Agliophobia isn't something people say very often. Most people would explain the idea using multiple words instead.

Jude

@user2684291 I'm simply asking shall we go to a cafeteria or to a theater?

Anonymous

Did you mean head rather than hit?

CowperKettle

14:33

Namaste and good evening

> Saratov Oblast Government has approved the construction of a mineral fertilizer plant in the area currently occupied by the Federal State-Owned Enterprise (FSOE) Gorny. (should it not be "the Saratov Oblast Government"? )

Anonymous

Umm, quite possibly. Maybe with a lower case 'g'?

Anonymous

Unless Saratov Oblast Government is a proper name without the article.

CowperKettle

No, it's not a proper name! Thank you!

I just thought that we should always capitalize government

How Russian of me

mike

one can 'hit' a location, though it's used quite specifically in my experience

"let's hit the gym", for example

I'm not sure I'd hit a theatre :)

Anonymous

Much less hit to a theatre, whatever that means :-)

mike

14:38

agreed :)

CowperKettle

"hit the gym" reminded me of "struck the Sydney town" in a song

The Man from Ironbark

►

Anonymous

@DamkerngT. There are people who tend to think of dogs as male and cats as female.

Anonymous

Of course, this doesn't have much bearing on reality!

Anonymous

We tend to use pronouns like he or she more when we empathize more with an animal, and it more when we don't.

Anonymous

For animals that are lower on the animacy hierarchy, like ants, we're most likely to use it.

Anonymous

14:51

We usually think of cats and dogs as closer to human than ants.

Jude

@snailplane ahhh haa. It should be head. I was wrong

Anonymous

To most people, snails are it, regardless of their actual sex (if applicable). But I have pet snails, and we tend to empathize with our pets, and I find that as a linguistic expression of this empathetic relationship I tend to find it unnatural and instead favor he or she – indiscriminately, really, since the snails I keep aren't gonochoristic.

Anonymous

You could say I'm promoting them up the animacy hierarchy, moving them closer to humans, like cats or dogs.

Damkerng T.

nods -- Most lead animal characters in stories, movies, and animations are either he or she anyway.

Anonymous

Definitely! They're often anthropomorphized to some extent.

user2684291

14:54

@snailplane I know; thank you for your caveat.

Damkerng T.

Even when they are just an ant or a bee or a snail! (^_^)

Anonymous

Which goes hand-in-hand with promotion up the animacy hierarchy.

Anonymous

@user2684291 Oh, good :-)

Anonymous

I don't mean to be overbearing. I just like chatting about language :-)

Anonymous

When we're close to animals, we can even think of them like members of our own families.

Damkerng T.

14:56

nods -- Robots are a bit different. Maybe things will change in a decade or two.

Anonymous

You mean after Skynet takes over and humans get demoted? :-)

Damkerng T.

Oh, no! I just mean when they're ubiquitous like our phones. :-)

CowperKettle

@DamkerngT. I feel demoted by my phone sometimes

Damkerng T.

Haha!

CowperKettle

But not yet taken over, I'm too stupid for that. I cannot use 90% of its features.

Damkerng T.

15:01

BTW, anyone think Foldimate is worth owning?

Anonymous

I'm basically comfortable with my laundry baskets full of wrinkly clothing.

Damkerng T.

Hehe!

user2684291

@snailplane en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gender_in_English#Animals There's an example with ants, but I get what you mean.

Damkerng T.

I actually kinda like to have this little thing walking around after me when I go shopping!

Maybe in four or five years, it will become a reality.

I might call it a he. :P

Anonymous

@user2684291 Yabbut, people would usually say it, not him.

Anonymous

15:13

What a lazy citation. They put an example that doesn't fit with the text they cited above it, and then cited the example to the same source, but they didn't say what page they were citing. And it doesn't appear in the work they were citing, anyway.

Anonymous

I suppose whoever wrote the Wikipedia page felt it was a good example, though.

user2684291

@snailplane True, although the examples the study contains are interesting.

V.V.

Good evening-morning all!

CowperKettle

I wander what the modern English term is for this thing

@V.V. A very slaughterous evening to you, V.V.!

Anonymous

@CowperKettle I have no idea

CowperKettle

15:22

I will translate it as equipment supporting structure

Anonymous

For me, the word of the day is: steeplejack

2

CowperKettle

> The project provides for the construction of an equipment support structure on which the process equipment will be attached in tiers.

Фильм "Высота" (1957) – песня "Марш монтажников-высотников" -"Не кочегары мы..."

►

> Steeplejack Song (USSR)

Anonymous

Oh, neat :-)

CowperKettle

(0:

user2684291

m-stil.covermagazin.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/01/… Would you call this a "dress shirt" (in AmE)?

Damkerng T.

15:28

A nice WotD and a nice song!

I'm sure I call it a "shirt".

Abcd

Can someone explain the usage of 'lest' to me

Damkerng T.

What do you already know about the usage?

Abcd

After a brilliant performance she was eager ____ praise.

I already know that its followed by should

for / to ?

for the above sentence? WHat is the most suitable word?

I think for maybe..

Damkerng T.

@Abcd If you know the intended meaning, it should be obvious.

Abcd

Okay @DamkerngT.... Can you tell me what would fit in the above sentence

Anonymous

15:34

@Abcd We can't tell because we don't know whether she was the performer or someone who liked the performance.

Abcd

I have many such question.

@snailplane I should assume the question is wrong

?

By the way .. we can only use 1 word

Anonymous

Well, I can tell you which word I'd pick, but it's just a guess, because the other choice is also grammatical and makes sense for a different situation.

user2684291

@DamkerngT. Really, just a "shirt"?

Abcd

@snailplane is for ok?

Damkerng T.

@user2684291 That's a standard shirt for me. :)

Anonymous

15:36

@user2684291 Dress shirt sounds fine.

Anonymous

@Abcd Yes.

Damkerng T.

(BTW, me don't like wearing a suit.)

Abcd

Okay Thanks.

Everyone should put ______ (aside?) something for their children's future.

user2684291

Does a suit comprise a dress shirt and trousers?

Abcd

word in brackets indicates my choice. I want to know whether I am wrong or not.

Anonymous

15:39

I would usually imagine a suit jacket as well.

Damkerng T.

@user2684291 For me, it mainly refers to the jacket. But the whole set would be a shirt, trousers, and a jacket.

Anonymous

I'm not sure if the dress shirt technically counts as part of the suit. I think the suit might be the jacket you wear over the shirt, and the pants.

Mick

@user2684291 A dress shirt is usually fancier, and typically, the buttons down the front are concealed so that the shirt can be worn with a bow tie.

Anonymous

@Mick Dress shirt isn't the same in American English.

user2684291

Ugh, now there're differences in meaning... perfect.

Anonymous

15:41

For AmE, it's fine to call the shirt in question a dress shirt.

Damkerng T.

I've never worn suspenders, though. Must be interesting.

user2684291

I got that, thank you for clarifying it again. Mick, thanks for your input.

Damkerng T.

@Abcd I think aside is fine. But something, really? I'd say some money sounds much better.

Abcd

Okay :)

user2684291

Is "trousers" used in AmE to mean "pants"; if not, is it understood?

Anonymous

15:44

@user2684291 You can say it. It's understandable. I hear pants a lot.

Damkerng T.

@user2684291 Sometimes I'm confused about these two, too!, but I think you're right.

Anonymous

My mother taught me to make some sort of distinction between pants, slacks, and trousers when I was young, but it didn't take. They're all the same thing in my poor addled mind :-)

Damkerng T.

Oh, BTW, a good belt is indispensable. (But everyone knows that.)

@snailplane Ah, yes, slacks, too!

Anonymous

Belts are important for me.

Damkerng T.

And a good tie. :-)

Anonymous

15:46

Not that I have any men's suits. Or ties. But belts, yes :-)

Damkerng T.

@snailplane Hehe!

user2684291

Thank you. Google Images is being rather unhelpful in my pursuit of clarity, though.

Anonymous

Look through some websites that sell menswear in the United States.

Anonymous

menswearhouse.com/mens-clothes/mens-pants

Jude

woah. expensive!

user2684291

15:52

@snailplane Ah, yes, that's helpful. When I click on the "blazers & sport coats" label, I get what I believe you called a "suit jacket", is that correct — is "blazer" synonymous with "suit jacket"?

Anonymous

Um, maybe? :-)

Anonymous

I can't tell you the difference, but there might be one.

Anonymous

Google sez: artofmanliness.com/2015/02/25/…

Damkerng T.

@Jude Suits are expensive!

user2684291

"Sports jackets. Suit jackets. Blazers. Most men use these terms interchangeably, as do many men’s clothing retailers." stops reading

Damkerng T.

15:55

For me, the standard attire for this kind of thing would be either Arrow or GQ.

Pierre Cardin and some other brands are available over here, but they are way expensive!

Abcd

We inquired ____(of) him in our letter. 4) One should not jump ____(for) the firt job offer. 5) Never jump ------(to) hasty conclusions.

The word in bracket indicates my choice

first*

Damkerng T.

jump at an offer, jump to a conclusion.

CowperKettle

Why do I get Indian sources when I google for allot land? Is this not a current expression in US/UK English?

Anonymous

How about about for the first one? :-)

Anonymous

@CowperKettle Dunno. I can't recall ever hearing it before. It sounds understandable, though, as part of a verb phrase.

CowperKettle

16:00

I want to make the following news article title: "Company allotted a plot of land for a future mineral fertilizer plant"

The Russian Govt. allotted a plot of land to this company

"given a plot of land" sounds too simple.. or maybe it's okay too

Anonymous

Company allotted plot of land for future mineral fertilizer plant

CowperKettle

(0:

Anonymous

@CowperKettle Oh, I understand allot and given differently.

CowperKettle

My girlfriend allotted me a good-bye kiss.

Anonymous

If X allots land, X is doing the giving, not being given, right?

CowperKettle

16:02

@snailplane really?

Mick

@CowperKettle Earmarked, perhaps?

CowperKettle

I thought that it's the other way around

Anonymous

Given would swap the semantic roles.

CowperKettle

@Mick no, the Govt. does not earmark land to a company (0:

@snailplane So "Company allotted a plot of land" would mean that Company is the actor. That breaks my purpose.

Anonymous

@CowperKettle Yes

Mick

16:03

Is the land being sold, or just given to the company?

CowperKettle

> Company assigned a plot of land for its future mineral fertilizer plant

Anonymous

Well, actually, in headlinese it's ambiguous.

CowperKettle

@Mick It could be being sold, but still the Govt decides whether to allot it. It's complicated.

Anonymous

Since we can't tell the difference between a past participle used passively and a preterite form when the copula is ellipted.

CowperKettle

> Company is allotted a plot of land for its future mineral fertilizer plant

Voila

Mick

16:06

@CowperKettle It's hard to think of something from a UK point of view. Our government sells everything.

Abcd

The planet was seen ___(through?/with/by) the telescope.

Mick

@Abcd Through or with (or using). By would imply that it was the telescope that was doing the seeing.

Abcd

Thanks!

user2684291

@snailplane Yeah, but "X allots land" = "X gives land".

Mick

@Abcd ... unless the planet was next to the telescope. :-]

Abcd

16:10

:)

user2684291

So, then, "I was given land" = "I was allotted land", and "X given land" = "X allotted land"; I'd say it's ambiguous because you don't know if "allotted" is the past simple or the past participle.

Anonymous

@user2684291 Yep! I think I said that same thing, 'cept I said "in headlinese" :-)

user2684291

@snailplane In headlinese, you'd say "Company allot(s) land...", wouldn'tcha?

Anonymous

Headlines can say lotsa stuff.

Anonymous

They can use preterite or past participial forms if they happen to be appropriate.

Mick

16:16

@CowperKettle How about provides? That is fairly neutral in meaning.

user2684291

How about granted?

Yes... maybe... no?

yubraj sharma

16:43

Which one is correct 'Little bit'or 'a little' ?

Mick

@yubrajsharma "A little bit" and "a little" mean the same thing.

CowperKettle

That Ella34 from Allpoetry is amazing

> When the time, like a long lonely road,
Stretches far, into white fields of night,
Flanked by soldiers of old gnarled forests -
Dark fir trees, bathed in silver moonlight,

Death comes down on wings swift and silent,
Hunched and somber, it walks by my side,
Just beyond halting shimmer of promise,
Outside of the hope, just behind.

She does not deal in pretty illusions,
She does not sing the songs of this world,
She is permanent, painful solution
And is not a solution at all.

She is not the high queen of the fables,

She writes such poetry

Unique

user2684291

17:48

I read the following sentence in a dictionary: "Nevertheless, the more sophisticated tone inherent in this use of the word can lend an archness to certain contexts, as when...", and I'd appreciate if someone could corroborate that it (in effect) means "is preferred in certain contexts".

Mick

"an archness" can mean "an air of superiority", or "a sense of mischievousness".

user2684291

@Mick Could you read the Usage Note at the bottom of the entry and tell me which one it is: thefreedictionary.com/affinity?

I think it's the first one.

Mick

18:09

@user2684291 I agree. The use of the word affinity is preferred because it sounds sophisticated and superior.

user2684291

All right, thank you.

V.V.

5

Q: Imperative with go (go do something )

I saw imperative sentences with the above-mentioned pattern with verbs "go", "come". The verbs are sometimes joined with "and". I understand it as informal usage with the first verb used as "encouragement" rather than "movement". The question is: - Can we use both patterns interchangeably? - ...

imperative

Got the answer.

user2684291

I agree with the answer in all points, and I'd add that if you decided to use "try" instead of "go", you could say "Try to do that..." ("Try and do that..." is commonly used in informal speech, though), so it depends on the choice of verb.

V.V.

18:25

Does it mean we shouldn't use the infinitive after "go" in the imperative ?

Any reliable sourses?

Sources

Thanks anyway

I meant the "to-infinitive ".

Damkerng T.

18:56

@V.V. I think thinking of it as an imperative is probably not a good idea.

For example, you can surely say I'll go do it.

I'll go call him; I'll go open the door; etc.

Hmm... I think it may not work very well with a past tense.

I don't know why, I think I'll go to call her is probably less idiomatic than He went to call her.

I'm going to call her is fine, though.

I think I internalize go do something as "go and do", but went to do something as "went in order to do something".

I haven't checked it with any references, BTW. Just something off the top of my head.

CowperKettle

Word of the day: Double-Dummy Technique

CowperKettle

19:57

Another word: puff

1 puff BID = one inhalation (of the drug) twice a day

user2684291

20:27

That's a common word.

Abcd

20:51

Is there any better alternative to the term "supporting pillar"
For instance , My father is the supporting pillar of my house.

Damkerng T.

21:43

Hmm... just pillar? -- He's the pillar of our family.

I wonder in what language this idiom originated. Could it be Latin?

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