Language Overflow

Man_From_India

04:41

From the news article about Greece economy featured on the front page of a widely-read and highly reputed English daily in India - The Times of India -

> Economists said the direct impact on India was likely would be marginal; ...

I wonder if that sentence is at all correct?

Anonymous

05:05

@Man_From_India It's not grammatical

Anonymous

Either they meant to write "was likely to be marginal" or "would likely be marginal"

Man_From_India

yes...thanks...I think result of bad editing and careless fast writing :(

Damkerng T.

08:38

@Man_From_India I guess that can happen in every news office!

Man_From_India

Yes, that is very understandable :-)

Damkerng T.

Good afternoon!

Man_From_India

09:17

Good afternoon @DamkerngT.

Damkerng T.

10:11

0

Q: Yavanika is one of the latest additions to good drama which appeared in recent times. FIND ERROR

Yavanika is one of the latest additions to good drama which appeared in recent times One book says "additions" should be "addition" Another book says "which appeared" should be "which have appeared" Yavanika is name of a movie.

> Yavanika is one of the latest additions to good drama which appeared in recent times.

Obviously, this was meant to be Indian English. However, I think it should work the same in standard English as well.

With a short hunt, I found the sentence in a test practice in Pearson Guide to CDS Examination.

> books.google.com/books?id=mpxdqsZVMdEC&pg=RA1-PA101

I even found the answer in a PDF file! (I think it's legit 'cause it's on www.thorpeseducation.com, as second proof: thorpeseducation.com/Thorpes%20SSC%20Graduate%20Level/pdfs/…)

So, the question is really like this:

> 101. (a) [ Yavanika is one of the latest ] (b) [ addition to good drama ] (c) [ which appeared in recent times. ] (d) No error.

The answer in the PDF is (b).

That should be enough for data gathering.

For one thing, the OP's version has one tiny but important different spelling: additions (not addition as in Pearson's book).

In any case, there are three points that I think may be worth mentioning:

1) On addition vs. additions, it should be obvious that it's additions.

2) Even though drama can be both countable and uncountable, I believe that the sentence is better with dramas.

3) As FumbleFingers pointed out (see below), though has appeared is (it's more like may be, IMHO) a much more likely choice, both has appeared and appeared (in recent times) are possible.

(Also, perhaps 4) The phrase (has) appeared in recent times gives me a weird feeling; maybe because it sounds a bit stilted to me.)

Throw away the book telling you additions should be singular. Even if you've actually misunderstood what it's trying to explain, the fact that you say this must surely indicate that the way it's written isn't suitable for you. The reason you'd normally use Present Perfect (have appeared) is to match the preceding present tense is (both that and the "recent times" element suggest a strong connection to the present, making present perfect a much more likely choice, but that doesn't mean simple past is "ungrammatical" - it's just not idiomatically preferred). — FumbleFingers 17 hours ago

So, my version would be:

> Yavanika is one of the latest additions to good dramas having appeared recently.

user62015

10:40

@DamkerngT. Hi!

Damkerng T.

Hello!

user62015

How is going?

Damkerng T.

Good. Thanks!

user62015

Sounds good.

Are you busy?

Damkerng T.

What is it that you want to discuss?

You can bring it up without having to wait for me in real time.

We all can read it (or possibly write our ideas about it) later.

user62015

10:44

Yes. I pasted the content on lang-8 three days ago but I have noticed that there is no feedback as website does not have that much active users. So if you allow me to post the content here.

Sounds good. It does not have that much content.

Damkerng T.

Oh, hmm... I remember that lang-8 was friendlier than that.

As for corrections, I'd recommend trying the other two rooms. Judging from the number of people in each room, I'd recommend trying ELL's Cabin first.

user62015

Let me know the URL please.

Please wait. I am there.

Damkerng T.

(I'm in that room too, BTW.)

user62015

Yes. I have seen that.

Let me paste it here. I have cut the most of the part of it.

It is not that much.

So here we go "I am a senior student in my group and I was asked to write down some content on personality & confidence development, group discussion skills and interview skills. I have written on them but I want to make sure the content I have written that makes sense and my English must be good. I need your help before I move forward. Please check the content and let me know your feedback."

Just that. I will not paste rest of it.

Damkerng T.

You can get your point across well enough already. Would you like proofreading or editing?

user62015

11:02

Sorry. I was away.

Proofreading.

Damkerng T.

Okay. In my mind, proofreading is more about spelling and grammar checking and such. Editing is a more complicated task. (Think editors--those who work in editorial departments.)

user62015

Editing work sucks!

Damkerng T.

It's a really, really tough job, if you asked me.

It can be even tougher when an editor has to edit a piece written by a non-native speaker.

user62015

Yes.

Damkerng T.

Though you can "write on something", I think you meant I have written ~~on them~~ it (down). Also consider using draft instead of write.

> I want to make sure that the content I have written ~~that~~ makes sense

user62015

11:14

Thanks. Please go ahead.

Damkerng T.

(Also consider using something like article instead of content.)

> I need your help ~~before I~~ to move forward.

Not the best phrasing in the world, but it should work as a quick fix.

user62015

Sure. I can understand.

Damkerng T.

Other possible alternatives: so, so that, in order to

user62015

So, are we done?

Damkerng T.

Yes. More or less. I feel like the last sentence may need some work, but it should work as is.

user62015

11:21

Do you find anything wrong in it: "I am a senior student in my group and I was asked to write down some content on personality & confidence development, group discussion skills and interview skills."

Damkerng T.

It is a bit awkward, but it should still be grammatical.

user62015

Thanks.

Damkerng T.

Welcome!

user62015

I need to go now. Thanks.

Damkerng T.

Welcome, and see you around!

user62015

11:24

I appreciate your help and time.

Thanks.

Damkerng T.

11:52

@user62015 BTW, let's try to keep corrections in another room (ELL's Cabin, for example) next time. Discussions about language usage are fine here, though.

Damkerng T.

12:54

0

Q: how to distinguish more and more" and "further""

Could you, as a native speaker and educated one, think of a sentence or situation where we could use the following interchangably? more and more further The best nima

adverbs

Somehow I feel that the question is like a puzzle!

Maybe it's common in grammar exercise books. (But I don't really know)

Man_From_India

I wonder if that question needs to be open at all...

Damkerng T.

Me too!

But it makes me think about possible ways people learn new words and phrases.

Man_From_India

Because a good dictionary would be a first help. I believe these kind of questions should include the research work.

Anyway he already got answers, and I haven't read any of them.

Damkerng T.

nods -- There are a lot of gray areas what makes a possible ELL question.

Ah, Godzilla!

Man_From_India

I remember when I started using English -to -English dictionary back at school, I often used to get the meaning in a incomplete way. And as a result used to wonder, does this word be placed instead of the other one :-)

Damkerng T.

13:02

@Man_From_India That's very reasonable!

I remember that my first English-English dictionary was sort of like that too. Iirc, it's Oxford.

Man_From_India

Sometimes I used to replace dictionary definition with the new word in that sentence, and tried to make out the meaning :D

Damkerng T.

:D

Man_From_India

@DamkerngT. Ay my first dictionary was Oxford's Advanced Learner's dictionary :-)

Damkerng T.

I think (most) dictionaries are much better now.

@Man_From_India Hey, we probably used the same dictionary!

Man_From_India

True...

Damkerng T.

13:06

Gotta eat something. I think I will have a TV dinner with Godzilla tonight. :P

Man_From_India

:D see u...enjoy...

Anonymous

I used to eat TV dinners when I was young. That was back when I was in my rebellious phase and refused to ever watch TV

Anonymous

Anonymous

These processed microwave meals were called TV dinners. I mean, I guess they still are. I never actually knew why they were called that.

Anonymous

I mention this because it sounds like you might mean "TV dinner" as "having dinner while watching TV", which is something I haven't heard before.

Man_From_India

13:28

@snailboat i assume u never ate sweets...kind of sweets we get in India...

Today in newspaper I read a good famous sweetmeat shop is opening in US next year...

But I am sure such sweets u will find in any Indian restaurant over there...but this new shop's sweets will be something different, I bet :)

Damkerng T.

14:54

@snailboat I sure used it in a humorous way. :D

Not sure if people still have real TV dinners.

@Man_From_India Interesting!

Man_From_India

:-)

Man_From_India

16:16

@DamkerngT. About further and more and more question, I think here OP made it a bit clear what he is up to.

thegrammarexchange.infopop.cc/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/340600179/m/…

One answer there seems strange. I don't want to comment, because I am not very sure. But the answer there says - "In your sentences, "complicated" is an adjective. When "complicated" is an adjective, we can modify it with "more"; we can't modify it with "further":"

So the following is incorrect -

> These things make the job further complicated

Damkerng T.

I agree that it's incorrect.

Man_From_India

I just found one example in COCA, where it uses further with an adjective:

> This is a further important step for Serbia in realizing its European perspective

Anonymous

But it's not a [further important] step, it's a further [important step]

Anonymous

= another [important step]

Damkerng T.

It comes down to the basic of parts of speech, I think. And nima seems to push further to the limit (by substitution).

Anonymous

16:24

That is, further there is an adjective modifying the head noun, not an adverb modifying an adjective

Damkerng T.

nods

Man_From_India

okay...

Anonymous

@DamkerngT. Ah, I apologize, I didn't understand :-)

Anonymous

Compare:

Anonymous

> *It's not just important, it's further important!

Anonymous

16:25

You can't modify important that way.

M.A.Ramezani

TV dinner? I always have laptop dinner, or rather chat dinner.

Damkerng T.

@snailboat No worries! I tried to make it sound like Godzilla was going to dine with me. Didn't work, I think. :P

Man_From_India

@snailboat Yes...got it :-)

Damkerng T.

16:39

At the moment, I wonder if this may be grammatical:

> These things make the job complicated even further.

My guts say it should be grammatical, but not quite idiomatic.

Anonymous

Hmm. Dunno!

M.A.Ramezani

I doubt its grammaticality.

Damkerng T.

@M.A.Ramezani My analogy was We don't want to do it any further.

Anonymous

What does that mean?

Damkerng T.

"We don't want to do it anymore," I think.

Anonymous

16:46

Like, a formal synonym?

Damkerng T.

(more than what we've already done)

@snailboat Somewhat, I think!

Anonymous

I guess that makes sense.

Anonymous

It gets hard to really process this stuff when you look at it too closely.

Damkerng T.

nods

Anonymous

I need to take a break to regain my ability to make intuitive judgments.

Damkerng T.

16:48

Semantic satiation strikes again!

Man_From_India

@DamkerngT. This really makes me think :O

Anonymous

One thing you find in linguistics is that the longer you start to look at something, the more likely it is to look okay, even if you would have originally said it wasn't.

Anonymous

It can work the other way too, though. Or you can just become uncertain.

Anonymous

The act of closely examining something changes your judgments about it.

M.A.Ramezani

Damkerng T.

16:54

Hey, I didn't know that we have such a poster!

wondering if 'poster' is only used in BrE...

M.A.Ramezani

@snailboat Then I'm sure I'm not a linguist. It's always that I look at something more and find it more ungrammatical.

Damkerng T.

@M.A.Ramezani An unlinguist, perhaps? :P

M.A.Ramezani

Dyslinguistic.

Damkerng T.

Poor thing!

Anonymous

@M.A.Ramezani Well, it can go in either direction. But overall I think linguists tend to end up finding their judgments become more permissive as they examine marginal usage.

Anonymous

16:59

In particularly confounding cases, something can seem grammatical one moment and ungrammatical the next!

M.A.Ramezani

@snailboat Like the example above.

Anonymous

@DamkerngT. AmE speakers say poster all the time.

Anonymous

That's not a poster, though.

Damkerng T.

@snailboat Ah, thanks! -- Oh, what is it?

Anonymous

It appears to be a soundtrack cover.

Damkerng T.

17:03

Oh, I thought it was a movie.

nods

Man_From_India

I just got this in OALD -

> My life is further complicated by having to work such long hours.

This is I believe PP of verb...complicate...

Anonymous

I think you're right. The by-phrase is a hint, and so is the modifier further

Damkerng T.

nods

Man_From_India

was still searching for any clue about - These things make the job complicated even further.

No help....seems like it's not possible, no similar sentence I managed to find...now tired :-(

Anonymous

You can always ask some more people.

Man_From_India

17:15

yes...

Damkerng T.

Found a similar expression: How to Make It Stretch Further

Man_From_India

No Dam, it's modifying the verb stretch

Damkerng T.

Oh, true! -- Wait...

Anonymous

Yeah, that's further in the "distance" sense.

Damkerng T.

Oh, that stretch is tricky!

M.A.Ramezani

17:17

Yay! Someone else here calls @Dam Dam; M.A. 1 - @Stoney nil.

Damkerng T.

???

M.A.Ramezani

in ELL's Cabin, Apr 23 at 18:37, by StoneyB

In English it's a little rude to refer to him as Dam ...

Damkerng T.

I see.

Man_From_India

Ohhh :O didn't mean it though...

Anonymous

I can see why he said that, but it doesn't register that way in my brain

M.A.Ramezani

17:21

@Man_From_India We don't. We're not talking about English @Dam. When I say @Dam, I mean the Thai Dam. There's a difference.

Damkerng T.

@Man_From_India I know. Don't worry!

M.A.Ramezani

And that's why @snail doesn't register anything like that.

Man_From_India

:-)

Damkerng T.

Ah, I found this!

> The clock's greedy insistence further makes it hard for readers to remember that this poet is not actually dead yet.

Man_From_India

Again it modifies the verb make

Damkerng T.

17:22

(Not sure if it's grammatical or not.)

Anonymous

Hmm, sounds like further modifies all of [makes it hard for readers to remember that this poet is not actually dead yet]

Anonymous

@DamkerngT. Sounds clunky to me.

Damkerng T.

@snailboat I felt that too!

It's from CONSUMING MIDNIGHT: BAUDELAIRE PREYS ON TIME, Spring98, Vol. 52 Issue 1, p40-59, 20p by Margaret Miner (via COCA).

M.A.Ramezani

@Man_From_India Wait. . . I thought it was something related to insistence.

If it does modify make I think it's grammatical.

Anonymous

A translation from French?

Damkerng T.

17:25

Not sure, but I think it's quite likely.

Anonymous

@M.A.Ramezani Ehh. I dunno.

M.A.Ramezani

Yeah. . . Maybe not idiomatic. But grammatical.

Anonymous

You're probably right.

M.A.Ramezani

I think I remember a lot of this further does something for blah blah blah to blah blah in articles I've read.

Damkerng T.

Ah, the full article is 40 dollars! tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1080/…

M.A.Ramezani

17:27

It must be a DOI. great!

Damkerng T.

(That's a lot of coffees.)

M.A.Ramezani

Don't do it @Dam!

For coffee! For science! For love! . . .

Damkerng T.

I won't!

Anonymous

@DamkerngT. Let me log in, it'll give me the full text for free

Damkerng T.

Wow, that would be great! Thanks!

M.A.Ramezani

17:31

@snailboat Yay! Thanks!

Anonymous

quarplet.com/papers/Miner%20-%20Consuming%20Midnight.pdf

Damkerng T.

Thanks a lot!

Anonymous

I think that further is probably fine, on reflection.

M.A.Ramezani

I wonder if I should save that only because I got it for free - Hehe, I have the Iranian spirit. . .

@snail I wonder how often singular they is used.

A lot of people get confused because of it.

Anonymous

All the frickin' time.

Anonymous

17:35

I probably use it dozens of times each day.

Anonymous

In order not to use it, you'd have to be explicitly taught not to use English the way it's natively acquired

Damkerng T.

lol

Anonymous

I've known people who claim not to use it, but in general I don't believe them.

Anonymous

There's a lot of nuance you can go into, though, about when it's okay and when it's not.

Anonymous

And when you look at the details, you find that there are people who'll use singular they when other people would definitely not.

Anonymous

17:37

I am one of those people. I use they when, for example, Geoffrey Pullum would not.

Damkerng T.

Ahh... Charles Baudelaire was a French poet.

Anonymous

Like, I often use they even when I know the gender of the antecedent.

Anonymous

For many people, that's downright odd.

Anonymous

So sometimes I remind myself of that, and catch myself writing it, and I backspace out they and type he or she in its place.

Anonymous

In speech that doesn't happen, 'cause by the time I'd notice it'd already be too late ;-)

Anonymous

17:40

But that's okay. I don't actually think there's anything wrong with it. It's just more common among younger speakers.

M.A.Ramezani

MWAHHAHHAHAHHHA! @snail now, with that link, I have so many free papers than one.

Anonymous

Six? :-)

M.A.Ramezani

For example, something from Pullum: quarplet.com/papers/…

Anonymous

That's a good paper.

Anonymous

I mostly collect linguistics papers. I've got hundreds of them saved :-)

Damkerng T.

17:42

@M.A.Ramezani A busy little squirrel, eh? :P

Anonymous

Sometimes I have to take some time and catalogue them.

M.A.Ramezani

Yeah. I'm not gonna even need them.

@snailboat Me too. It's usually a mess in my E:\

Damkerng T.

@M.A.Ramezani I find the squirrels in my garden kinda cute.

Anonymous

I have a hierarchy two levels deep right now, but it's still kind of a mess.

Damkerng T.

They busy pick all kinds of fruits all day. I think they don't remember where they keep the fruits they picked yesterday. :-)

M.A.Ramezani

17:43

@DamkerngT. Then I'm definitely not a squirrel.

Damkerng T.

@M.A.Ramezani You're cute enough for me. :D

M.A.Ramezani

@DamkerngT. Oh they do remember. Just wait for Dawn of The Planet of The Squirrels.

Damkerng T.

@M.A.Ramezani Well, you should have a look at my drive H: and G:. There are more than one H: drives too.

@M.A.Ramezani A must-see!

M.A.Ramezani

@DamkerngT. How in the world is this cute?

Damkerng T.

Being a bit symmetrical and a bit asymmetrical, I think. :D

M.A.Ramezani

17:46

@DamkerngT. Thanks God you're not on Windows. You'd have 1424565 file explorer windows open. Maybe you already do. . .

Damkerng T.

@M.A.Ramezani I guess Windows can't handle that!

Ah, I mis-pluralized a word up there.

M.A.Ramezani

@DamkerngT. Yeah. Too many mosquitoes would enter the room.

@DamkerngT. Where?

Damkerng T.

drives

M.A.Ramezani

Should drive be Drive?

Damkerng T.

I think drive is all right; no need for capitalization.

Anonymous

18:06

Hey, it does look like a squirrel!

Anonymous

Or maybe a scorpion :-)

Damkerng T.

Eh, a squirrel and a scorpion?

Anonymous

Well, not at the same time.

Anonymous

But either way, the part on the upper right is a tail!

M.A.Ramezani

Who?

Anonymous

18:08

In the case of squirrelness, it's swishy.

Damkerng T.

A-ha!

M.A.Ramezani

Me?

Damkerng T.

(Still not sure about the scorpion)

M.A.Ramezani

If you think of the phenyls as the claws and the tail, I do look like an scorpion.

Anonymous

It would have two big pincers on the left.

M.A.Ramezani

18:10

Yeah, pincers. I was looking for that.

Anonymous

Claws is fine too.

Anonymous

Chela (organ)

A chela /kˈiːlə/, also named claw, nipper or pincer, is a pincer-like organ terminating certain limbs of some arthropods. The name comes from Greek (χηλή) through New Latin (chela). The plural form is chelae. Legs bearing a chela are called chelipeds. Another name is claw because most chelae are curved and have a sharp point like a claw. == See also == Pincer (biology) == References... ==

M.A.Ramezani

@snailboat Nah, I'm not a chelate.

Anonymous

I'm 50% more likely to get that joke this week because of the reading I've been doing.

M.A.Ramezani

Now how in the world does that look like an squirrel?

@snailboat chem studying?

Anonymous

18:12

Maybe when I get back I'll draw a squirrel :-)

Anonymous

Nah, bio.

M.A.Ramezani

Cool! But chelates are molecules.

Damkerng T.

@M.A.Ramezani You got to see how squirrels run!

M.A.Ramezani

@DamkerngT. Like an squirrel?

Anonymous

Yeah, it turns out molecules come up in various topics besides pure chemistry :-)

M.A.Ramezani

18:14

@snailboat Specially if they're organomolecules.

You wouldn't have run into them if they were some alloy or intermetallic compound.

Note to self: Alloy != Intermetallic compound

BTW @snail are there any prefixes similar to but other than intra and inter?

I notice since @Dam asked me not to go off-topic a lot here, I've been asking an awful lot of questions here.

Damkerng T.

Thanks!

M.A.Ramezani

Hmm.

Word of the day: anteprandial/preprandial

Damkerng T.

It's amazing that we have a word for that and that!

M.A.Ramezani

It's not that amazing since I tried really hard to find words for your requests but I failed. :(

Damkerng T.

Aww...

If only English included khanti (or khantii) as a word...

like ahimsa or karma.

M.A.Ramezani

18:28

O.O

Now, a question!

Damkerng T.

I'm still not sure whether taba is a Sanskrit or Pali word.

Yes?

M.A.Ramezani

What would the word be if it was pertaining to the period in which you eat your meal?

Like, between the meal-time.

Damkerng T.

midprandial?

M.A.Ramezani

I would find that kinda word useful.

Damkerng T.

(Just a wild guess)

M.A.Ramezani

18:30

Hmm, giving more thoughts, I can see why preprandial would be a very useful word.

Damkerng T.

Apparently, it's in use!

> "'Whatever's the meanin' of this midprandial excitement?' demands Jack

Anonymous

I see postprandial fairly often

M.A.Ramezani

Even more O.o.

Anonymous

You can hardly read anything about nutrition without running into it.

M.A.Ramezani

So you see guys, I was thinking about a medical context.

Anonymous

18:35

Speaking of which, be safe(-ish) and stop exercising if you smell ammonia during your fasting exercise.

M.A.Ramezani

My mom has a pharmacy. (And I don't think it's a sensitive info so I reveal it) Usually when explaining the doctor's prescription to the patient, she has to say which drug to be consumed before the meal, while consuming the meal and after the meal.

@snailboat What does ammonia smell like? Like trimethyl amine?

So, as I was saying, I was thinking special words for those would be helpful.

Anonymous

They're basically only used in academic papers.

Anonymous

Or, y'know, other relatively academic contexts.

M.A.Ramezani

But since something like midprandial gets only 118 results in Google, I think there's something else used in pharmaceutical contexts.

Anonymous

@M.A.Ramezani I'll leave that question to you. Just remember cardiac muscle has a very low regenerative capacity, so if you exhaust your glycogen stores and start burning protein, you could do some permanent damage. I know you aren't fasting very long, so hopefully it's not a big risk. Just mentioning it anyway ;-)

Anonymous

18:42

Dehydration and electrolyte imbalance being a couple other potential problems from heavy exercising during dry fasting, but I assume you're eating and drinking a lot when you break your fast.

M.A.Ramezani

@snailboat Oh! It never gets that far!

I do work out a lot, but I eat too much too.

Anonymous

I can't recall seeing a word built on prandial meaning 'during the meal'

Anonymous

Only preprandial and postprandial...

M.A.Ramezani

So there must be something else.

Anonymous

Could be.

M.A.Ramezani

18:45

I know how often something like that is used in medical contexts.

Anonymous

But I think people tend to measure things before and after a meal, not so much during.

M.A.Ramezani

People, not pharmacists. Pharmacists aren't people.

Damkerng T.

Hah!

Anonymous

There's intraprandial, I guess.

Anonymous

ajcn.nutrition.org/content/45/3/526.full.pdf

M.A.Ramezani

18:47

Oh hohoho that would be so awesome!

Anonymous

> Intraprandial thermogenesis refers to the brief period during which a meal is ingested.

M.A.Ramezani

@snail I have some bad news for you.

Anonymous

If I never prompt you to tell me, will you tell me anyway? :-)

Anonymous

I tried waiting, but it didn't work.

M.A.Ramezani

Hmm. Intragastric. Intra- is sure used a lot in scientific contexts

@snailboat Prompt me.

Anonymous

18:49

What's your bad news?

Anonymous

Thanks for the prompt prompt prompting, by the way.

M.A.Ramezani

I know who to ping next time an article is behind a paywall.

M.A.Ramezani

19:04

Oh, I love this word: tenderfoot Dunno why.

Damkerng T.

Similar to greenhorn.

The way the two words were made also seems similar.

Anonymous

Modifier-head compounds!

M.A.Ramezani

Oh crud.

omg OMG OMG

Does this mean what I think it means?

Anonymous

Nutrition has an absolutely huge amount of open access content.

Damkerng T.

Interesting!

Anonymous

19:10

I recommend using Google Scholar to navigate through the network of citations if you find something on a topic you're interested in.

M.A.Ramezani

It's not like I'm gonna apply what I read to what I do. Classic Iranian laziness.

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