Language Overflow

Nihilist_Frost

03:52

my father has problems picking up silent letters in several words.

cocoa, island, sword,

producing garbage like

koʊkoʊæ for cocoa
aɪslənd for island
swɜd for sword.

Damkerng T.

It can be tricky to him, I think.

Nihilist_Frost

actually, he figured out "cocoa"

I was confused due to him speaking in Vietnamese.

about Cocoa, Florida.

I told him how to fix the pronunciations.

"surface", my parents got wrong for so long.

Damkerng T.

How did they pronounce it?

Nihilist_Frost

sɝfeɪs instead of sɝfɪs, sɝfəs

phonics is misleading to newcomers.

on some exceptions.

Catija

... but there's no silent letter in "surface"...

Nihilist_Frost

04:05

@Catija It's a separate issue.

Damkerng T.

nods -- I think stressing could be a problem for them in general as well.

Hi, @Catija!

Catija

hi

Nihilist_Frost

@Catija It's that stress-based mutations mingling with phonics rules to make a confusing mess.

is it me, or do diphthongs and /i:/ get more stress in English?

how did "sew" end up with a long O?

Ϻ.Λ.Ʀ.

10:25

No one here. Why am I not surprised?

CopperKettle

11:03

Peter and Varun have been giving rapid-fire answers the last half-hour, and I'm not sure they were correct.

Ϻ.Λ.Ʀ.

@CopperKettle Sigh that's always the case.

The guy starts suddenly posting tons and tons of answers, gets to nk rep, and then gets bored.

Part of the reason we have many bright answerers, but IMO these days ELL answers are not that reliable.

Damkerng T.

11:16

2

Q: Between or Among

Sentence A feasibility survey has now been completed in India to establish a network to felicitate contacts between small and medium enterprises. What is the right form? Between small and medium enterprises. or Among small and medium enterprises.

prepositions

I think "between enterprises" is probably the best choice.

I guess they might've wanted to say "between enterprises, small or medium".

Damkerng T.

11:56

1

Q: What does "At this late date" mean?

sorry for my bad English. I'm translating a book about behavior. What does "At this late date" mean in the following context: At this late date, I don’t think we have to strenuously argue that finding meaning and purpose improves our lives.

meaning-in-context

At this late date, I think, should be cataloged as an idiom, but no dictionary does so.

How often do we use at with date?

(I think one possible paraphrase that's easy enough for learners would be "at a time this late".)

Damkerng T.

12:33

0

Q: It's correct to call "deployment" to the group of pieces to be manufactured?

I have a product definition (furniture) that has all the subcomponents explained based on the relation with his parent product. With formulas. The structure of this description is called "Configuration". When I sell a unit of the defined product, I create, "deployment?" of the components, in ...

word-usage

o_O

I have no idea what he was trying to talk about!

He said it's furniture, but it sounds more like a program! (Do we "execute" furniture?)

CopperKettle

@DamkerngT. It sounds to me like he's a database designer.

I created some simple databases. Maybe the products are tailored to each customer, I mean, assembled using different components.

And he wants to designate the process of creating a ready product.. maybe. O_o

Damkerng T.

I guess so! It makes sense now why he used all the confusing choices of words!

CopperKettle

13:16

Now I know two Hindi words: Kumata and Kuputra!

0

Q: Word for mother who accuses her children to defend herself?

She blames me when the fault is hers. This happens usually when we are in front of our relatives. She twists statements and/or exaggerates when she wants to complain about me to my father or to our relatives. When neighbours say something negative about my appearance or my behaviour, she lecture...

word-choice

Since English is not so agglutinative, I guess the English version is "bad mother".

Pardon, the term seems to be "fusional"

Damkerng T.

13:34

books.google.com/…

I think this kind of making a new word in Sanskrit is called "sandhi" but I'm not very sure.

Hmm... a strict mother?

A difficult mother?

A credulous mother?

Damkerng T.

13:58

...

Wondering of the Day: can we say Don't play hard to get to a candidate who tries to deflect and not to give any commitment or say anything or even any figure because they know they will have a better salary if they keep playing patient long enough?

Hanaa

15:05

Hi ! :)

CopperKettle

16:44

Good evening, @Hanaa!

A very interesting question:

3

Q: Present participle or relative clause

You did too good of a job writing this thing. It is understood that "writing" is not a reduced relative clause which modifies job. Subject of "writing" is clearly "you". Then what is the role of "writing this thing" in terms of grammar? Present participle?

present-participle participle-clause

Looks like a subjectless supplementive clause (Quirk et al., 15.61)

I'm not sure though. It's interesting how CGEL calls these constructions.

Damkerng T.

"Santa travels around the world, jingling all the way."

(trying to imitate the sentence structure)

CopperKettle

@DamkerngT. That looks like an adverbial to travels

"The children, having eaten their fill, were allowed to leave the table."

(an example of "unambiguously supplementive clause")

Damkerng T.

> You did too good of a job writing this thing.

CopperKettle

You, having written that thing, did a good job.

Hm. Seems to fit the pattern. Or not.

Damkerng T.

> ?The children were allowed to leave the table eating their fill.

CopperKettle

16:56

(0:

Damkerng T.

:D

CopperKettle

The table was eating their fill! O_O

No wonder the kids were scared.

Damkerng T.

LOL

CopperKettle

You did too good a job smiling.

Ϻ.Λ.Ʀ.

What is a job smiling?

Note: Totally not a trick question

Damkerng T.

17:05

I know one at theme parks. Hmm... what's that game called? ...

CopperKettle

@Ϻ.Λ.Ʀ. Hi! I'm just trying to modify the sentence to see if it works as in Quirk et al's examples. (Unit 15.62)

Ϻ.Λ.Ʀ.

\o Copper et al.

tchrist

CopperKettle

"The manager approached us smiling"

@tchrist You've been watching Monty Python?

Damkerng T.

Dunk Tank Girls Galore !

►

CopperKettle

17:06

(0:

tchrist

@CopperKettle For the sake of Mister Stormtrooper:

18

Q: Head is to 'decapitate' as arm is to what?

Pretty straight forward but google is failing me. What is the single word for removing a limb, specifically an arm? It can't be disarmed, as that is used when someone has their weapons taken. I know there is decapitate for removing a head, even defenestrate for throwing out a window (which I i...

single-word-requests

Ϻ.Λ.Ʀ.

@CopperKettle Nah sorry, I'm TeXing and it'd be too much for my workload to enter teh grammerz.

CopperKettle

@DamkerngT. Nice! (0:

Ϻ.Λ.Ʀ.

@tchrist Cool answer.

Damkerng T.

She did a great job smiling!

tchrist

17:09

@Ϻ.Λ.Ʀ. Tanks!

Ϻ.Λ.Ʀ.

Jets!

CopperKettle

Geronimo!

"I caught the boy waiting my daughter." (could be a supplementive clause, could be a verb complement, could be a postmodification of boy)

'I caught the boy in the act of waiting for my daughter.' [verb
complementation]

You did too good of a job writing this thing. == 'You did too good a job in the act of writing this thing' (verb complementation?)

Ϻ.Λ.Ʀ.

compleflentation?

CopperKettle

a typo

Damkerng T.

It's hard for me to think of it as a verb complement; but I can read it as a modifier of either I or the boy.

CopperKettle

17:16

Maybe, but Quirk et al write that all three options are possible. O_o

Damkerng T.

Interesting!

CopperKettle

The term "supplementive clause" is not used by anybody. It's only in that book, judging by googling. Well, it's used by a handful of people.

Damkerng T.

I'm not very familiar with Quirk's terminology. Calling it a verb complement sounds rather odd to me, though I think it's possible that in traditional grammar, time clauses are usually considered a verb modifier.

Anonymous

in English Language Learners, Dec 16 '14 at 13:21, by snailboat

Oh, I've never seen a reference grammar that didn't invent terminology :-)

Anonymous

in English Language Learners, Dec 16 '14 at 13:22, by snailboat

The terminology is somewhat less important than the ideas

CopperKettle

17:19

The more I reread that part in Quirk et al, the more confused I get.

Good evening, @snailboat!

Anonymous

@CopperKettle What page are you looking at?

Ϻ.Λ.Ʀ.

\o @Snail

CopperKettle

@snailboat 1126, "Supplementive clauses in final position"

4

Q: Present participle or relative clause

You did too good of a job writing this thing. It is understood that "writing" is not a reduced relative clause which modifies job. Subject of "writing" is clearly "you". Then what is the role of "writing this thing" in terms of grammar? Present participle?

present-participle participle-clause

Anonymous

Ah, and they define supplementive clause on p.1124.

Anonymous

> I caught the boy [waiting for my daughter].

CopperKettle

17:22

Yep. "Grammar: creating more mishegoss through meticulous classification".

Anonymous

The logical subject of waiting for my daughter could be either I or the boy.

Ϻ.Λ.Ʀ.

@CopperKettle — @CopperKettle ?

CopperKettle

nods

@snailboat But accoridng to them, it could also be a "verb complementation" (an adverbial?)

Anonymous

And in the case of the boy, the two interpretations are either (1) what you caught the boy doing, or (2) which boy you caught.

Anonymous

So in their analysis, in interpretation (1) it would be a complement of the verb caught, and in (2) it would be a postmodifier in the NP the boy waiting for my daughter.

Anonymous

17:26

In either of those cases, the logical subject would be the boy, but in (1) it wouldn't be part of the NP; it'd be attached to the VP instead.

CopperKettle

@snailboat Ah. I see. I caught the boy plaing computer games. (I did not catch him, I just discovered that he was playing computer games)

Damkerng T.

Makes sense

CopperKettle

@snailboat This reading won't apply to "You did too good of a job writing this thing."

So it must be "writing this thing, You did a good job" (a supplementive clause)

Anonymous

@CopperKettle I think there we have the colloquial AmE of-insertion BrE speakers reject.

2

CopperKettle

@snailboat Could be so!

Maybe with all the TVs around they don't reject it very much. Languages should mingle.

Anonymous

17:32

@CopperKettle You'd have to ask someone more familiar with BrE.

Anonymous

It's true, though, that AmE and BrE are in constant contact and influence one another.

Anonymous

It's also true that AmE and BrE are mostly the same to begin with. We often focus on differences, but they're really the same language.

CopperKettle

nods

Anonymous

So sometimes I think we make the differences seem bigger than they actually are.

CopperKettle

nods

Damkerng T.

17:35

> You did one hell of a job writing this thing.

should work in both dialects

Anonymous

Ah, that's different grammatically :-)

CopperKettle

So, in "I caught him stealing my money", stealing my money is a complement of caught.

Damkerng T.

:D

CopperKettle

Yes, one hell is a noun phrase (0:

Anonymous

@CopperKettle The postmodifier-in-NP-structure analysis wouldn't work for that one.

Damkerng T.

17:37

I think the reason of may not work is because too good isn't a NP.

Anonymous

It'd have to be something like "I caught [the man ~~who was~~ stealing my money]".

Anonymous

@DamkerngT. But it's fine in colloquial AmE.

CopperKettle

@snailboat In my example, stealing my money is a complement of him?

Damkerng T.

Yes. I was trying to think of it in BrE.

Anonymous

@CopperKettle No

Anonymous

17:38

You had it right

CopperKettle

Ah. Phew! (0:

Anonymous

Sorry, I appear to be explaining things poorly :-)

CopperKettle

No, you're doing it brilliantly. (0:

I'm curious how CGEL treats such constructions.

like a "gerund-participial clause partly licensed by the matrix clause"?

Damkerng T.

4

Q: His greatness - "lies" or "lay"?

So, in the following extract, students are supposed to fill the correct form of the word (given in the parenthesis) in the blank beside it. The first one (0) has been given as am convinced. Here's the passage: From ICSE board paper Page 5 Question 4, I (0) ____ (convince) that my father (1) ...

verb verb-forms

Ahh... ICSE

CopperKettle

I read that question and was not sure in the upvoted answers, so I did not add my vote.

Bye, Snails!

Damkerng T.

17:52

I think the answer is correct, because it's expected to be in InE.

We could add a tag, if we wanted to.

CopperKettle

@DamkerngT. In Indian English?

Damkerng T.

Yes, ICSE. The I is Indian.

CopperKettle

But I wonder if it would seem wrong to an AmE or BrE speaker to use the present tense there.

Damkerng T.

I think most speakers would accept either.

What I'm not sure is which is the more common one.

Ϻ.Λ.Ʀ.

@DamkerngT. Indian Crumbling Search Especially?

Damkerng T.

17:59

Could be a nice use of corpora.

I think it's not that hard to find its full name. (I can't remember it and it's not easy for me to search right now.)

Ϻ.Λ.Ʀ.

Indian Camping Specialist Englishers

CopperKettle

"Or to put it another way, his pure heart made him great in life. If you also want him to be great in death, you need to give a more persistent reason. For example, the memory of his actions makes him great now. But that's not what the passage is saying. It's saying that when alive, he was great." (by one answerer)

"Nelson's greatness lies in the fact that he destroyed a whole fleet at Trafalgar" (no mention of memory)

This is one of the questions where I'd give preference to a native speaker.

lekon chekon

hey.
I come here with doubts.

I'll read that book an hour from now.
I'll read that boon after an hour.
I'll read that book in an hour from now.

What's the difference in their meaning?
And are they all grammatically correct?

CopperKettle

@lekonchekon The last is incorrect, the second is questionable.

The first is the best.

Ϻ.Λ.Ʀ.

@lekonchekon Scratch "from now" from the third.

CopperKettle

18:05

"I'll read that book in an hour" (no need for "from now")

Damkerng T.

@CopperKettle I think it depends on how the reader reads it, and once a person sets their mind, it's hard to read the same text otherwise.

Ϻ.Λ.Ʀ.

Though what meaning do you want it to convey?

lekon chekon

what's the difference in the meaning between the two?

CopperKettle

@DamkerngT. May be. I notice a lot of errors by native speakers of Russian at lang-8.com.

lekon chekon

the first one and i'll read that book in an hour.

Damkerng T.

18:06

nods -- They must've been assuming the wrong idea.

between the first and the last, I would assume that you'll have already started reading in the last, but not yet in the first, one hour from now.

(It should be just "in an hour")

lekon chekon

so basically, the first one means that i'll start reading in an hour's time, right?

Damkerng T.

Hmm... That's probably not very precise.

Nihilist_Frost

what was the last irregular verb ever formed in English?

Damkerng T.

I thought they came all at once!

Nihilist_Frost

I thought about this when I found that AmE "dove" as past tense for "dive" is a relatively modern invention.

Ϻ.Λ.Ʀ.

18:10

Hey @Dam @Cop I'm puzzled by the biggest question in history of moleculekind.

CopperKettle

@Ϻ.Λ.Ʀ. I'm too dumb for chemistry..

Ϻ.Λ.Ʀ.

> Are smileys minor sentences?

Damkerng T.

As some sort of a back formation?

CopperKettle

@Ϻ.Λ.Ʀ. If their diameter does not exceed the diameter of the monitor, yes.

Ϻ.Λ.Ʀ.

@CopperKettle If it does, does it mean they're a neutral sentence? (Neither minor nor major)

Nihilist_Frost

18:12

英語 = English language

CopperKettle

@Ϻ.Λ.Ʀ. I dunno. (0:

Nihilist_Frost

the first kanji seems to be onyomi.

Ϻ.Λ.Ʀ.

@Nihilist_Frost I'd never thought symbols are so elegant.

lekon chekon

.-. should i post what i asked as a question on the main site?

Ϻ.Λ.Ʀ.

Having some squares and lines mean "English language". O_o

@lekonchekon That's a question you should answer.

I think though, that ELL has got enough "is this grammatical" stuff.

lekon chekon

18:15

._.)

Ϻ.Λ.Ʀ.

We should think more fundamentally, and make our posts richer.

@lekonchekon Don't mind me, I'm giving an inspirational speech here.

\o @V.V.

lekon chekon

but i still require more conceptual knowledge on the language to obtain a immaculate sense of grammar, and how the language works. :3

an*

Ϻ.Λ.Ʀ.

So @Dam, what are some fundamental questions you had when they were loading the english library in your RAM?

Nihilist_Frost

@Ϻ.Λ.Ʀ. That's the Japanese word for "English language". romanized "eigo"

Ϻ.Λ.Ʀ.

Thanks, that'll save my life some day.

I dunno what makes something a fundamental question. (╯°□°）╯︵ ┻━┻

Damkerng T.

18:20

@Ϻ.Λ.Ʀ. How can one possibly understand another? -- Tha was the question. :-)

Ϻ.Λ.Ʀ.

@DamkerngT. O_O Wasn't it "what does love mean?"

CopperKettle

Philosophy SE is in another room. (0:

Ϻ.Λ.Ʀ.

@DamkerngT. [status-declined-too-fundamental]

@CopperKettle What is philosophy?

CopperKettle

@Ϻ.Λ.Ʀ. Philo = love; Sofia = knowledge

Nihilist_Frost

@CopperKettle φίλος + σοφός

upsilon: /u/ -> /y/ -> /i, f, v/.

funny Greek letter evolution

resulting in ευρώ (euro) being /ev'ro/

Anonymous

18:38

@Nihilist_Frost They both have on'yomi.

Anonymous

Ei and go.

Nihilist_Frost

@snailboat yup.

Anonymous

It's better to write on'yomi than onyomi, by the way.

Nihilist_Frost

oh yeah, it could be confused between the N kana and the ny- set

Ϻ.Λ.Ʀ.

@snailboat What does it indicate?

Anonymous

18:40

Right, otherwise you aren't distinguishing んよ from にょ.

Anonymous

@Ϻ.Λ.Ʀ. When I'm on my other computer it'll be easier for me to describe Japanese phonology.

Nihilist_Frost

@Ϻ.Λ.Ʀ. It indicates the Japanese nasal syllable vs the "nyo" syllable.

Anonymous

So I'll get back to you.

Ϻ.Λ.Ʀ.

@snailboat God help us when you get on your other computer. ;)

Anonymous

Also, typing ん as n' is a good habit. It's easier to type kon'nitiwa than konnnitiwa quickly.

Anonymous

18:45

(On an actual Japanese keyboard, that's kind of annoying though, since ' is shift-7.)

Nihilist_Frost

打刀 uses kun'yomi, and 日本刀 uses on'yomi!

Anonymous

Right!

Nihilist_Frost

uchigatana vs nihontō

is there a predictable pattern?

Anonymous

Nope! :-)

Nihilist_Frost

I heard the kun for 刀 before the on'yomi!

and most people would.

Anonymous

18:49

You have to memorize it.

Nihilist_Frost

because the kun'yomi for 刀 is the celebrated katana!

lol

Anonymous

One pattern is that on tends to go with on and kun with kun.

Anonymous

But there are plenty of hybrid words out there, too.

Nihilist_Frost

exactly.

Anonymous

So even that isn't reliable.

Anonymous

18:51

Plus, there are lots of jukujikun readings, where a single reading is assigned to the entire compound, e.g. inaka for 田舎.

Nihilist_Frost

雨 has the kun'yomi "ame"

Anonymous

躊躇う is tamerau, but 躊躇 is chuucho.

Anonymous

And so on.

Anonymous

Yes!

Nihilist_Frost

lol

一

Adjective: 一

each
Gěi tā men yī rén yī zhǐ píngguǒ. [Pinyin]
single, alone
whole entire, all, throughout
Tāmen zài hǎitān shàng wán le yī xiàwǔ. [Pinyin]

(3 more not shown…)

Adverb: 一

With the verb modified reduplicated, expressing the transience of the verb
Indicating the intention to try
Suàn yī suàn. [Pinyin]
once; as soon as; upon
wǒ yī kāikǒu, tā jiù fēikuài de pǎokāile [Pinyin]

(3 more not shown…)

Noun: 一 ‎(hiragana いち, romaji ichi)

one, 1

scroll to the japanese section.

Anonymous

18:54

雨 is Ame 'rain', not to be confused with 飴 aME 'candy'

CopperKettle

Different syllable stresses?

Anonymous

Right, except it's usually called pitch accent rather than stress because the primary difference is in pitch. They remain roughly the same length regardless of which mora is accented.

Nihilist_Frost

@CopperKettle Pitch.

Anonymous

So unlike for English the term stress is usually not used.

Nihilist_Frost

二本 vs. 日本?

Anonymous

18:56

Okay, it's going to drive me crazy trying to talk about this stuff any further on a computer without Japanese support set up. Be back in a bit :-)

CopperKettle

"This substance, which was discovered almost by accident, has revolutionized medicine". --- is this different from "Discovered almost by accident, this substance has revolutionized medicine." (I wonder, for Quirk et al seemingly think the two sentences different)

Nihilist_Frost

@CopperKettle not really for me.

Ϻ.Λ.Ʀ.

@CopperKettle Nope.

CopperKettle

@Nihilist_Frost You're a native English speaker?

Nihilist_Frost

@CopperKettle yes.

Ϻ.Λ.Ʀ.

18:58

@CopperKettle yes.

CopperKettle

@Ϻ.Λ.Ʀ. I never once had the (a?) reason to think otherwise! (0:

Ϻ.Λ.Ʀ.

@CopperKettle You're a native speaker too, of RusE.

@CopperKettle Both work.

CopperKettle

@Ϻ.Λ.Ʀ. Yes, of Runglish.

Ϻ.Λ.Ʀ.

Ugh.

CopperKettle

Runglish

Runglish, Rusinglish, Ruglish or Russlish (Russian: русинглиш or рунглиш, rusinglish or runglish), is a Russian–English macaronic language. The term "runglish" was popularized in 2000 as a name for one of the languages aboard the International Space Station. Cosmonaut Sergei Krikalyov said: "We say jokingly that we communicate in 'Runglish,' a mixture of Russian and English languages, so that when we are short of words in one language we can use the other, because all the crew members speak both languages well." NASA has since begun listing Runglish as one of the on-board languages. Although less...

Ϻ.Λ.Ʀ.

18:59

Persinglish is my field.

CopperKettle

" Anthony Burgess' novel A Clockwork Orange has a famous form of Runglish called Nadsat. "

Ϻ.Λ.Ʀ.

Try saying "Russlish" ten times fast.

Actually, wait, it's easy.

Not if you do it fast though,

since the little stop between the syllables has to be removed naturally, and that's where the problem rises.

CopperKettle

nods

Good night!

Ϻ.Λ.Ʀ.

Night!

Damkerng T.

22:13

I just misheard "You need to get dressed" as "You need to get rest".

Damkerng T.

23:44

Pre-teen would indicated anyone younger than 10, so if you want to imply you may have been teaching a 5 year old, than you can use that. 11 year old is your best bet. You will find teachers are usually very specific in how they describe their students since different abilities are expected at different ages with no room for ambiguity. — Peter 11 hours ago

Isn't that just a weird comment?

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