Language Overflow

Anonymous

00:00

That would make my [t̚] sound wrong for Thai, wouldn't it?

Anonymous

@DamkerngT. Oh!

Damkerng T.

@snailboat Indeed.

Anonymous

Whew, I think I don't know how to physically produce a proper [t̚] sound!

Damkerng T.

Hmm... I think the final "t" in most "tweet"s is pronounced as a [t̚].

Anonymous

Oh, I can't tell if I'm doing it right. I can't tell the difference between my [ʔ] and [t̚] for syllable-final /t/.

Damkerng T.

00:04

Just make sure that the tip (or the blade) of your tongue for your [t̚] stays at the same position as when you make a normal "t" sound at the beginning of a word.

Anonymous

It's too bad they're both allophones of the same sound in English. They sound identical to me! :-)

Damkerng T.

I guessed as much. :D

Anonymous

kʰāˈnàʔ sounds like kʰāˈnàt to me :-)

Damkerng T.

@snailboat Oh! I didn't expect that, really!

Let's see if this works (I've tried only the first four clips):

> 1. ขณะ-ที่ ลม-เหนือ และ พระ-อาทิตย์
[while-at wind-north and ("phra")-sun]
2. กำลัง เถียง กัน ว่า // ใคร จะ มี กำลัง มาก-กว่า กัน
[(-ing) argue together that // who will have power more-than (particle)]
3. ก็ มี นัก-เดินทาง ผู้-หนึ่ง เดิน ผ่าน-มา ใส่ เสื้อ-กัน-หนาว
[(particle) have er-travel person-one walk passing-by wear shirt-protect-cold(=cloak)]
4. ลม-เหนือ และ พระ-อาทิตย์ จึง ตกลง กัน ว่า
[wind-north and ("phra")-sun then "make an agreement" together that]

Hmm... maybe I should've added English translation, too. Not just the glosses.

Anonymous

Well, if I say Batman in English, I think it's usually [ˈbæʔˌmæ̃n].

Anonymous

00:16

So I'm used to hearing syllable-final [ʔ] as /t/.

Damkerng T.

@snailboat I think most "t" or "d" at the end of utterances are usually not [ʔ].

Anonymous

In what language?

Damkerng T.

In English.

I mean, it's normally not a pure [ʔ]. It doesn't sound like that to me.

Most of the time, it's either a [t] or a [t]+[ʔ].

Anonymous

In my version of American English, syllable-final /t/ is generally [ʔ] if the preceding sound is a vowel or sonorant. But it can also be partially glottalized, yeah.

Anonymous

The first stage is called glottal reinforcement, and then when the [t] vanishes entirely glottal replacement.

Anonymous

00:19

Problem is, I can't hear the difference between reinforcement and replacement. :-)

Anonymous

Which is probably why my tongue gets lazy and doesn't bother articulating the [t] at all!

Damkerng T.

I think Thai speakers would hear it as [t̚] when you pronounce the glottal reinforcement version.

Anonymous

I should bug my friend with lots of syllable-final consonants :-)

Anonymous

"What did you hear? What did you hear!?"

Damkerng T.

Hehe!

Anonymous

00:21

I'll have to set my mic back up and see if I can hear the difference when I'm not in the process of pronouncing it.

Anonymous

Can you give me a pair of easy words to say that have those consonants? I have [ˈtʰɔ̀ːt] ถอด for final /t/

Anonymous

Is ˈtʰɔ̀ːʔ a word? :-)

Damkerng T.

@snailboat It is! [ˈtʰɔ̀ːt] ถอด = "take off (clothes)", [tʰɔ̀ːʔ] เถาะ = the rabbit year

Anonymous

Haha! What a choice!

Anonymous

Wait a sec.

Anonymous

00:31

Oh, phew.

jimsug

@DamkerngT. I think it's an unreleased [t] + [ʔ]

Damkerng T.

How about using ก instead?

jimsug

At least, that's how I feel like I'm articulating it.

Anonymous

You say that, but I know I don't always articulate that [t] in my AmE accent.

Damkerng T.

@jimsug Yes, I think that's what I normally hear.

[kʰɔ̀ːt] กอด = hug, ~~[kʰɔ̀ːʔ] เกาะ = island~~, [kʰɔ̀ʔ] เกาะ = island

jimsug

00:32

@snailboat not even an unreleased [t]?

Anonymous

@jimsug Sometimes!

Damkerng T.

Wait, it was a bad example!

Anonymous

I'm certain I do pronounce the unreleased [t] sometimes.

Damkerng T.

Remember that [ʔ] goes together with short vowels in Thai?

Anonymous

Oh, you made it a short vowel!

Anonymous

00:34

@DamkerngT. It makes sense. Cutting vowels off is something glottal stops are good for :-)

Damkerng T.

Yes! Now another interesting thing is, we can't make a short [kʰɔ̀t] in the neutral (middle) tone in Thai!

Anonymous

The way vowels are written in Thai script is fascinating.

Anonymous

Or perhaps I should say the ways, plural!

Damkerng T.

@snailboat Fascinating is a nice word! It was thinking it could be more like confusing. :-)

Anonymous

@DamkerngT. Oh, well, yes, that too :-)

Damkerng T.

00:40

For one thing, it's many to many. A sound can have many ways to write, and each of the component in writing can be used for different sounds. It's only a specific combination that has a specific sound, and this only usually happens at the syllable level. :-)

Ah, I can come up with a minimal pair for you, but with a different vowel, and in a different tone.

กัด /kàt/ "bite", กะ /kàʔ/ "estimate", ก่า /kàː/ "colloq. 'more'"

ปัด /pàt/ "ward off", ปะ /pàʔ/ "patch", ป่า /pàː/ "woods"

(note that the /p/ sound is unaspirated.)

Anonymous

Oh, thanks!

Damkerng T.

Anytime!

Anonymous

I think I can pronounce both [ɔ̀] and [à]. But they look like the same tone to me. Did I miss something?

Damkerng T.

@snailboat They are of the same tone.

Anonymous

Oh, I just read "in a different tone" and expected to see a different one!

Anonymous

00:48

The /k/ sound is unaspirated too, right?

Damkerng T.

@snailboat Ah, I'm sorry. It was because I was thinking of เกาะ!

Anonymous

My friend tried to teach me the unaspirated /p/ sound a while back. It's not very easy for me, though!

Damkerng T.

เกาะ has a neutral tone spelling, but has a low tone pronunciation. See I confused myself again!

Anonymous

Oh, I see!

Anonymous

Orthography is confusing.

Damkerng T.

00:50

@snailboat Yes, /k/ is unaspirated too.

Anonymous

I try to use weak aspiration for /p t k/ in Japanese and Spanish. Spanish has a really low VOT.

Anonymous

Japanese is a little bit more aspirated, but still "unaspirated" from an English speaker's perspective.

Anonymous

That is, it's hard for me to distinguish the Spanish and Japanese aspiration (or lack thereof).

Anonymous

Well, it's hard for me to distinguish in the first place since it's not phonemic in my L1, but I try :-)

Damkerng T.

The thing is other easy consonants (like "kh", "ph", "n", or "m") are of another tone.

Anonymous

00:52

Oh!

Nihilist_Frost

@DamkerngT. For me it's a glottal stop + unreleased T.

Anonymous

What are the VOTs like in Thai for aspirated/unaspirated /p t k/? Are they similar to Mandarin?

Anonymous

@Nihilist_Frost Do you articulate the [t̚] in Batman?

Damkerng T.

นัด /nát/ "making an appointment", นะ /náʔ/ "a particle, approx. like Japanese 'ne'", น้า /náː/ "aunt".

Nihilist_Frost

@snailboat I move my tongue to the [t] position but the glottal stop cuts the air off.

Anonymous

00:55

Huh. Seem awkward when I try to actually articulate it.

Anonymous

When it's utterance-final, like if I just say the word bat, I think I'm more likely to articulate the [t̚].

Damkerng T.

@snailboat I think the unaspirated ones are like Mandarin. The aspirated ones are almost as long as English, just a little shorter.

Nihilist_Frost

@snailboat Sometimes it's like how I did it, sometimes it is pure glottal stop

Anonymous

Yeah, I'm pretty sure I'm not entirely consistent.

Damkerng T.

Perhaps the "n" set is easier, though they have the high tone.

tchrist

00:59

@snailboat English speakers often mishear Spanish initial unvoiced stops as voiced ones.

For want of aspiration.

Nihilist_Frost

For kitten I have free variation between [ʔ], [ɾ] and [t]

Damkerng T.

@Nihilist_Frost I think I have a syllabic n for words like "kitten".

Nihilist_Frost

I can easily make that syllabic N too

Anonymous

I only have [ʔ]. I can pronounce [t] if I'm being hyperarticulate, like if I want to sound theatrical, but it's not something I'd do in normal speech.

Anonymous

[ˈkʰɪʔn̩] would be the normal pronunciation for me.

tchrist

01:01

Same, but we have the same accent, I think.

Nihilist_Frost

I think I picked up that free variation from hearing other people pronounce "button" differently.

When I first picked up "button" I started with [ɾ] and then gained glottalization later.

tchrist

I have only [ʔ] in button. It’s way too much word to put something more there.

Nihilist_Frost

Now I'm starting to flap "button" again!

tchrist

I meant way too much work, but the typo fits.

Damkerng T.

ภาษาไทย ป.1 การอ่านสระอา ครูสุรีย์ สุคนธ์วารี

►

Nihilist_Frost

01:13

I always pronounce "I'll" homophonous to "all".

Damkerng T.

> ปา ปา ป้า
สระ อา ปา ป้า
มี กบ ตัว ใหญ่
ใน กระ เป๋า คุณ ป้า

Nihilist_Frost

and we'll as will

Damkerng T.

It's different from my school days. This is the closest one I can find in a short time.

I doubt if other teach innovations (mostly for tablets) can work better. They're less drill-like, and they seem to try too much to encourage the kids to reason with the lesson.

Nihilist_Frost

Pronouncing I'll as isle, we'll as wheel, he'll as heel, etc. grates my ears.

What else grates your ears about pronunciation?

The correct pronunciations of "hyperbole", "segue", "syncope", "metathesis", "wreak", "tu quoque" and "albeit" all cause my ears to bleed.

Damkerng T.

01:28

When เผียะ is pronounced as เผี่ย, perhaps. (Note that the narrator and the kids pronounce the word differently.)

การอ่านสะกดคำและแจกลูก

►

Google Translate seems to be very bad at pronouncing these non-words. (Though เผียะ is a real word.)

Anonymous

I don't know if there are any particular pronunciations that bug me, apart from ˌɪləˈnɔɪz

Anonymous

There might be some I just can't think of off the top of my head.

Anonymous

Since I learned so many words by reading, I grew up pronouncing lots of things funny :-) I think most of them eventually got straightened out, though.

Damkerng T.

I kinda like segue, btw. I think a couple generations more, we may be able to postpone our starting to walk period to after 8. :-) Kids under 8 can just seque around. :P

Anonymous

Haha! I've seen those Segway things.

Anonymous

01:36

@DamkerngT. That's actually kind of terrifying.

Anonymous

I'm just imagining the childhood obesity rates going up even higher once kids realize they don't actually need to walk anywhere.

Damkerng T.

They might've already realized that!

Anonymous

Fair enough :-)

Damkerng T.

See how skillful they are: youtube.com/watch?v=e_3HFi5m8Zg

:D

Anonymous

I was not athletic as a child.

Anonymous

01:39

I didn't start exercising (aside from those times I was forced to) until I was 18.

Anonymous

If I could've gotten out of walking, I probably would have. :-)

Damkerng T.

Hehe!

Anonymous

It makes me wonder if childhood inactivity is caused in part by diet-induced leptin disregulation.

Anonymous

Dysregulation with a 'y'?

Anonymous

COCA favors dysregulation (41 results) over disregulation (only 11 results).

Anonymous

01:41

@DamkerngT. How do they do that!?

Anonymous

It looks like magic.

Damkerng T.

@snailboat He looks so natural, right?!

Anonymous

Yeah!

Anonymous

No, Google, insulin is not an inflection of leptin

Anonymous

Children with so-called hypothalamic obesity do exhibit very low levels of physical activity

Anonymous

01:52

That is, when the obesity is caused by damage to the hypothalamus (head trauma, etc.)

Damkerng T.

Oh!

Anonymous

I just say so-called because, if the hypothalamus is implicated in all obesity, they might try to come up with a better name for "hypothalamic obesity"

Anonymous

02:04

Oh hey, dys- and dis- are different prefixes! Who knew? (Everyone but me, probably! ;-)

Anonymous

Well, if 11/52 results in COCA had disregulation, I guess at least some other people must have merged the two together mentally.

Damkerng T.

@snailboat Eh, but aren't dysregulation and disregulation two spellings for the same word?

Anonymous

@DamkerngT. Yeah! Seems so.

Anonymous

But at least originally, it comes from dys-, it seems.

Damkerng T.

0

Q: 'in-a my heart' correct, or only 'in my heart'?

There are two different lyrics in the hymn. Lord, I want to be a Christian in-a my heart vs Lord, I want to be a Christian in my heart Is the first correct too or typing error?

Hmm... I wonder if the OP mistook the humming part for a vowel.

Anonymous

02:09

Is there a recording or anything?

Damkerng T.

Nope.

Anonymous

Oh, I see! en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lord,_I_Want_to_Be_a_Christian#/media/…

Damkerng T.

Oh, it's on the sheet!

Damkerng T.

02:33

1

Q: What's better in this context? "one more line" or "another line"?

In order to draw something two dimensional, we are doing two steps: 1) drawing one line. 2) We add another line to this line. B.t.w. if you think that I need to improve another thing in this paragraph, kindly let me now of that.

word-choice

I think the difference is basically the same as the difference between a man and one man.

jimsug

03:06

Slightly risque material, but an interesting read: fusion.net/story/190020/netflix-and-chill

Interestingly, I don't know if it's picked up in Australia yet. Hmm.

Anonymous

I didn't know it had picked up here! :-)

Damkerng T.

Ugh! A new phrase, with an unexpected meaning!

Fantasier

03:46

@snailboat Ah, that's my question! :-)

Yesterday I was so tired I had to go to sleep.

Anonymous

I've been using chat as a tool for procrastination all day.

Fantasier

@DamkerngT. Yeah. But you may find it acceptable when you have a look at other patient-subject constructions in Thai: "มีดนี้ลับคมแล้ว" "ผ้าซักสะอาด" "น่องไก่ทอดจนกรอบ" etc. See Thongtang's dissertation (2009): cuir.car.chula.ac.th/handle/123456789/17866.

Not to mention stuffs like "ถนนสายนี้ยังไม่ได้ลาดยาง," "ข้าวจานนี้ราดแกงเพิ่มแล้วไม่อร่อยเลย" etc, which is basically my term paper this semester :-)

@DamkerngT. First time I had no idea. Second time "ลุ้นตลอดหกสิบวินาที และแจกตลอดหกสิบวินาที กับ"

His roundedness of /u/ is very strange; it's almost as unrounded as /ɯ/

Anonymous

@Fantasier How do you hear the Japanese /u/? It's usually transcribed [ɯ], and it can be unrounded in rapid speech, but in careful speech it's "compressed", which is either similar to rounding or a type of rounding depending on who you ask.

Anonymous

Fantasier

04:02

@snailboat Before I learned the lip-rounding is actually compressed, I usually heard it as [u].

Anonymous

一通 /iQtsuH/

Fantasier

I heard that as [ɯ].

Anonymous

That's from a native speaker who grew up in Tokyo.

Anonymous

Do you think it's very different from Thai [ɯ]?

Anonymous

I was just listening to some Thai sounds, but I couldn't tell very precisely.

Fantasier

04:07

I'm not sure. I can't tell the difference right away, but judging from the sound clip, I think Japanese /ɯ/ is a little more back than Thai's.

But I certainly wouldn't notice this in normal speech, no :-)

@DamkerngT. I think it's based on Phraya Upakitsilapasarn's grammar, which in turn was based on Pali and English traditional grammar.

You may be interested in having a look at Prasithrathsint et al's Pan-Dialectal Grammar of Thai (elibrary.trf.or.th/project_content.asp?PJID=RTA5080018), which I suppose is meant to be a (base of) modern Thai comprehensive grammar.

@DamkerngT. I think that's just headlinese omitting prepositions.

Oh, I've mentioned Damkerng a lot!

Anonymous

04:26

@Fantasier Oh, thanks! :-)

Anonymous

@Fantasier That's what I was wondering! :-)

Anonymous

5 hours ago, by snailboat

Do they ever omit function words like that to save space in the news?

Anonymous

But then Damkerng said:

Anonymous

5 hours ago, by Damkerng T.

@snailboat They do that both in the headline and in the body of the news.

Fantasier

@DamkerngT. Yea, but as in snailboat's quote, we often realize /r/ as a flap, especially in consonant clusters (ประกอบ is perhaps [pɾakɔ̀ːp̚]). Trilling is too much work, anyway. So I think the cue is actually the rhoticity.

@snailboat Oh, yes :-) In the body of the news, too, if they have limited space.

Anonymous

04:38

@Fantasier What tone does the first syllable have?

Anonymous

I haven't managed to work out how to read tones in Thai script yet. It seems complicated :-)

Fantasier

@snailboat Normally realized as mid, but in careful speech it would be low.

Because phonemically it's low.

/pràkɔ̀ːp/ -> [pɾakɔ̀ːp̚]

Anonymous

And you're indicating mid in your phonetic transcription by the lack of diacritic?

Fantasier

Yes

Anonymous

I guess that keeps things simpler :-)

Fantasier

04:44

Ah, thanks :-)

Anonymous

My only experience with Thai IPA so far is from the handbook, and they consistently mark mid tones with [ā] and such.

Anonymous

I don't know how different the transcriptions in the handbook are from what other linguists use.

Anonymous

In my experience, Japanese isn't usually transcribed the way the Handbook of the IPA does it.

Fantasier

Ah, I don't know either. When I read papers I don't observe much on their conventions.

Anonymous

Oh, I see!

Anonymous

04:47

Well, I don't need to get it really precise. I just have to learn the basic phonetics of Thai so I can learn the writing system :-)

Anonymous

(Doesn't make much sense to learn a writing system without learning the sounds!)

Fantasier

I do think marking mid-tone explicitly makes it easier and clearer, though.

Anonymous

Oh, okay!

Anonymous

It would keep me from asking, anyway :-)

Fantasier

:-P

Anonymous

04:55

Oh, I see, it's tʰāj rather than tʰāi because it patterns like a consonant, appearing as a coda but not as part of a diphthong before a coda consonant

Fantasier

nods

Although we have vowel graphemes, <ไ-> and <ใ->, for /aj/, it never takes a coda consonant.

Historically, <ใ-> was for /aɰ/.

But in Thai their sounds sort of merged or something, if Iirc.

Anonymous

I think ɤ is going to take me some work, too :-)

Fantasier

nods

@Fantasier What is this "if Iirc"

Anonymous

Hehe!

Anonymous

If I recall correctly? :-)

Fantasier

05:07

Yes, but the way I wrote it, it would be if If i recall correctly @_@

Anonymous

Hehe :-)

Damkerng T.

05:21

@Fantasier Not sure how my example is related to the construction. (It's a Chula only paper!) I think น่องไก่ทอดจนกรอบ is fine, but how about น่องไก่ทอดจนกรอบแป้งห้าดาว?

Fantasier

@DamkerngT. The latter is certainly unacceptable, but it's an unacceptable construction for a sentence anyway, regardless of the verb.

Your example is related in that in เครือข่ายขยาย..., เครือข่าย doesn't expand itself. The same way น่องไก่ doesn't fry itself, or clothes don't wash themselves

Damkerng T.

@Fantasier I heard it as แล้งแจกตลอดหกสิบวินาที the first time. :D

Fantasier

Oh, it's labelled "Chula only", but you can download it too if you register.

The database has just become open access.

Damkerng T.

@Fantasier Oh, you were talking about the other example. The one from the 4G ad.

Hmm... น่องไก่ทอดจนกรอบ as a sentence. Let me think...

Weird.

Fantasier

Yeah, perhaps a bad example

Take a look at the examples inside the dissertation.

Damkerng T.

05:25

ผ้าซักสะอาด is also weird. ผ้าซักสะอาดแล้ว is fine, though.

Fantasier

nods

I think it's weird because we can't contextualize it.

With แล้ว, we can.

Damkerng T.

Could be.

nods

Fantasier

I'm heading out a bit. Feel free to give your opinions! :-)

Damkerng T.

See you later!

@Fantasier I can't say for everyone, but most of my casual /r/'s are not really a flap. I think they're more like a one-trill trilled /r/. When our /r/ (folks in my family) start to sound like a flap, we usually automatically bring it up to a one-trill /r/.

I remember that อย่าลิ้นแข็งสิ เวลาพูด was something my aunts usually said when I was still in school.

Anonymous

How can you tell a one-period trill from a flap?

Damkerng T.

05:35

It's true that a one-thrill /r/ is really close to [ɾ], but they're not the same, imo. Just like a glottal stop and a stop [t] + a glottal stop are not the same.

Anonymous

Are they articulated in different places in Thai?

Damkerng T.

They're from the same places.

I think it's sort of like the tense and lax contrast. Does that make any sense?

Anonymous

> Trills are sounds like [r] in Spanish perro 'dog' in which the air is repeatedly interrupted by an articulator (in this case the tongue tip) vibrating in an airstream. A very short contact, similar in duration to one cycle of the vibration of a trill, is called a tap, such as the [ɾ] in Spanish pero 'but'.

Damkerng T.

I think when I'm in a bit more formal, but not most formal, most of my Thai /r/ will become about a two-trill /r/.

Three or more is probably overdoing, imho. But those /r/s suit teachers well. :-)

I think we expect teachers to use at least three-trill /r/ sounds in Thai classes.

Anonymous

> The aperture size and airflow must fall within critical limits for trilling to occur, and quite small deviations mean that it will fail. As a result, trills tend to vary with non-trilled pronunciations. So with trills, as with voicing, there is a potential conflict between an acoustic definition (more than one period of actual vibration) and an articulatory definition (position of the articulators in a configuration such that, given the right aerodynamic conditions, vibration would occur).

Anonymous

05:44

> In this chapter we will consider trills to be sounds made with an articulatory configuration appropriate for vibration, regardless of whether vibration actually occurs. Although a vibratory pattern can be sustained for as long as a sufficient airflow is available, acoustic trills in linguistic use usually consist of two to five periods (geminate occurrences may be longer). We have noted that the first closure in a trill often has a slightly longer duration than following ones.

Anonymous

I think that the distinction between the two needs to be made on a per-language basis.

Anonymous

In the quote above, Ladefoged & Maddieson are describing the sounds in general.

Anonymous

And they note two ways that you can distinguish them.

Anonymous

One is in terms of number of periods. That's an obvious definition, but it may not always work if a language articulates the trill and non-trill r's in different ways.

Anonymous

If there's only one period and they're articulated the same way, they should result in the same sound.

Anonymous

05:46

But it seems there are often articulatory differences that depend on the language.

Anonymous

(I'm looking at The Sounds of the World's Languages)

Damkerng T.

In the example reading I did a couple weeks ago (dropbox.com/s/bpatrklqsh30oj4/…), one of my /r/ is obviously lower than my standard (at 0:40), the rest are still acceptable to me, though if I continued or reread it again that day, I would automatically readjust my /r/.

That one at 0:40 is a real flap one.

Anonymous

But it seems like there are other acoustic details associated with trills . . .

Anonymous

If there's just one contact, but a second incomplete contact that results in frication following the contact, for example.

Damkerng T.

Yes, I think so. Hmm... perhaps it's about the strictening (is that a word?) of the tongue, to get ready for the trilling.

Anonymous

05:50

Before and after the trill, there should be a brief period of approximant- or vowel-like sound, it seems.

Damkerng T.

"The aperture size and airflow must fall within critical limits for trilling to occur, and quite small deviations mean that it will fail." -- I think that's what exactly happened in my failed /r/.

Anonymous

L&M cite The story of r (Lindau 1985), saying Lindau found that brief approximant- or vowel-like sound both before and after trills in every language they studied.

Damkerng T.

06:16

Poem of the Day (Thai): dropbox.com/s/6tovj39xfk4nrec/oh-ok-euj.wav?dl=0

> โอ้อกเอ๋ยเคยเคียงข้างนางหน่ายแหนง
จำจนใจให้หิวโหยโรยเรียวแรง
กลับกลายแกล้งแปลงเปลื้องเรื่องรักษเรา
เหลือล้ำฦกนึกนิ่มนวลหวรหายหอม
ตรึกตรองตรอมยอมแย้มเยี่ยมเรียมง่วงเหงา
ล้ำลักลอบชอบเชิงชวนยวลยั่วเย้า
คลึงเคล้นเคล้าเจ้าจึ่งจางหมางมิตรเมิล

You can scan for the letter ร for the /r/ sound.

Fantasier

That's a lot of alliterations

Damkerng T.

It's an example of กลบท.

Fantasier

nods

Damkerng T.

@Fantasier Wow, you've got to listen to GT reading that poem!

(I misspelled one word, by the way, on line two: เรี่ยว not เรียว)

Phrase of the Day: no skin off our teeth

(from Se7en)

Damkerng T.

11:23

@Fantasier I think this usage of สามารถแสดง ("can show" or "can be shown"; e.g., ประโยคประเภทนี้สามารถแสดงด้วยโครงสร้าง นามวลี คำ กริยาหลัก และส่วนขยาย) is relatively new. I think it's only popular in the last 15 years. The trend may have begun a decade or two before that. It's something that grates my ears every time I hear it.

I think I first found it in math, e.g., ผลลัพธ์ x = 5 สามารถแสดงด้วย x = 15 - 2x; 3x = 15; x = 5.

BTW, it's as if the Thai abstract of cuir.car.chula.ac.th/handle/123456789/17866 was written as a translation of the English abstract.

Ϻ.Λ.Ʀ.

11:55

@snailboat No.

Damkerng T.

I'll admit that I sighed a few times, reading the above paper.

Ϻ.Λ.Ʀ.

@DamkerngT. Why?

I usually LOL at stupid translations.

Damkerng T.

I'm not sure they translated from which language to which language.

Ϻ.Λ.Ʀ.

For instance, a mis-translation of a proverb in Turkish meaning "To do as much as you can" is "put it from your hand as much as you don't want to".

Fantasier

13:31

@DamkerngT. I don't know. To me that kind of construction is as Thai as, say, "แม่ไปตลาด"

I'm very used to translationese.

And my speech and writing are a lot like translation, too.

So I don't have any awkward feelings reading the paper.

Also, I think some of the translation-ish terms are inevitable. They're officially coined terms by the Royal Institute.

Damkerng T.

One thing I can remember jumped out to me, "ผลการวิจัยพบว่า... นอกจากนี้พบว่า..."

Fantasier

นอกจากนี้พบว่า is strange. ผลการวิจัยพบว่า I think is very common and I have no problem reading it.

นอกจากนี้*ยัง*พบว่า would sound fine to me, though.

Damkerng T.

Oh, I meant that it was strange because they were used together.

Fantasier

Hmmm

Damkerng T.

But it was a really, really long phrase/sentence.

Fantasier

13:37

I think "ผลการวิจัยพบว่า ... นอกจากนี้ยังพบว่า ..." would be OK for me.

Damkerng T.

I can't explain why adding ยัง makes it sound better.

Fantasier

Well I think there's more than a few papers on ยัง

Function words like ยัง, จะ, กำลัง, อยู่, แล้ว etc. receive a lot of attention.

Damkerng T.

Another thing is perhaps the overuse of โดย:

> วิทยานิพนธ์ฉบับนี้มุ่งศึกษาคุณสมบัติทางวากยสัมพันธ์และอรรถศาสตร์ และประเภทของเหตุการณ์ที่ แสดง**โดย**หน่วยสร้างชนิดนี้ **โดย**รวมรวมข้อมูลจากงานวิจัยในอดีต บทความ หนังสือประเภทต่างๆ รวมถึงจาก บทสนทนาในชีวิตประจำวัน และรับสมมติฐานและแนวคิดเบื้องต้นของทฤษฎีไวยากรณ์หน่วยสร้าง (Construction Grammar) ตามแนวคิดของ อะเดล โกล์ดเบิร์ก (Goldberg, 1995) มาปรับใช้กับการวิจัย **โดย**ที่ แนวคิดนี้เชื่อว่าหน่วยสร้างนั้นต้องมีรูปโครงสร้างและความหมายประจำโครงสร้าง **โดย**รูปโครงสร้างของหน่วย สร้างประธานรับการกระทำในภาษาไทยคือ นามวลีผู้รับการกระทำ สกรรมกริยา และส่วนขยาย

I think it commonly happens when the writer can't come up with a clear idea how to connect ideas together.

Fantasier

Yea

Well, I don't associate being a good communicator with being a good linguist. :-)

Damkerng T.

Hehe!

Fantasier

13:47

I'm a bad communicator.

Damkerng T.

Hmm... I think you communicate quite well. It's quite pleasing reading some of your answers.

Fantasier

And I can tell Pittayaporn is not the easiest-to-understand lecturer either.

@DamkerngT. Ah, thanks.

Funny thing, now I've registered on CUIR, because I'm too lazy to connect via the VPN every time -_-

Damkerng T.

@Fantasier Yay, and aww... :-)

Fantasier

....................................What's this

I still have to use the VPN headbang

The registration just lets me use it.

(ノಠ益ಠ)ノ彡┻━┻

Damkerng T.

LOL

I can't see the arguments and examples in the paper, so I don't know how the author generalized the patterns. FWIW, I thought of an example that could be interesting this afternoon:
1. ครูสมศรีของเราเลื่อนเป็นครูใหญ่
2. ครูสมศรีของเราแต่งตั้งเป็นครูใหญ่

1 is definitely grammatical, while 2 is only probably grammatical and it could as well be just probably ungrammatical.

Fantasier

13:55

The second one is ungrammatical and unacceptable for me.

But that's different from what the paper is concerned with

Damkerng T.

Even though it's one of the four patterns in the paper.

Fantasier

Nah

I think you probably missed something?

Damkerng T.

การแสดงสภาพผลใหม่ของประธานผู้รับการกระทำ (the new resulting state of the Patient subject)

@Fantasier That's why I said I don't know how they generalized the patterns (because I can't see the paper).

Fantasier

@DamkerngT. Oh, I thought you've read it!

Damkerng T.

Nope.

Just the abstract.

Fantasier

13:57

Aww

I thought you've registered.

Damkerng T.

I haven't. :-)

I think ครูสมศรีของเราแต่งตั้งเป็นครูใหญ่ may work in very narrow contexts. It may still be too marginal anyway.

Fantasier

Hmm

Let me have a look again

> 3.3.1.2 การกลายสภาพของประธานผู้รับการกระทำ

> [...] สามารถแสดงได้ด้วยผังภูมิโครงสร้าง (schematic structure) ได้ดังนี้

> นามวลี + { สกรรมกริยาแสดงการเปลี่ยนแปลงสภาพ / สกรรมกริยาแสดงการสร้างสรรค์ } + "เป็น" + นามวลี

> [...] ความหมายของโครงสร้างนี้คือ การกลายสภาพของประธานผู้รับการกระทำไปสู่ลักษณะทางกายภาพรูปแบบต่าง ๆ ซึ่งเกิดจากการผ่านกระบวนการเปลี่ยนแปลงสภาพที่แสดงโดยคำกริยาหลัก คำว่า "เป็น" ทำหน้าที่บ่งชี้จุดเปลี่ยนแปลงของสภาพที่เป็นผลจากการเปลี่ยนแปลงที่แสดงโดยคำกริยาห‌ลัก อนึ่ง สภาพผลจากการเปลี่ยนแปลงดังกล่าวแสดงด้วยนามวลีท้ายประโยค [...]

So basically the reason why แต่งตั้ง doesn't work in this construction, according to Thongtang, is because แต่งตั้ง does not change the state of the noun phrase physically.

Damkerng T.

Hmm... กายภาพ (physically)?

Fantasier

Examples include:

> ยานี้ป่นเป็นผง

> ตึกหลังนี้ทาเป็นสีขาว

> ห้องนี้แบ่งเป็นสองส่วน

Damkerng T.

ที่ร้ายกลายเป็นดี?

Fantasier

14:10

@DamkerngT. กลาย there is not a transitive verb.

We don't say *ฉันกลายเขาเป็นมด

I think Thongtang was being too narrow though, because his own examples do include things that are not physical

Damkerng T.

Okay. Fair enough. How about ความสุขเพิ่มเป็นสองเท่า?

Fantasier

@DamkerngT. Yea. But that's debatable whether it's the patient-subject construction or เพิ่ม is a labile verb.

labile verb

Noun: labile verb ‎(plural labile verbs)

(grammar) A transitive verb, such as break, burn, boil, open, start, change, or assimilate, which may be used intransitively with the object of the action as the subject.

Anyway, as I said, I think Thongtang was defining it too narrowly.

Damkerng T.

Wait, isn't all the verbs in the paper can be considered labile verbs?

nods

Fantasier

No. Labile verbs are more flexible.

Damkerng T.

In English, perhaps?

Fantasier

14:14

In Thai too

Many verbs in the paper occur only in the constructions mentioned.

> ความสุขฉันเพิ่มมากขึ้นเยอะเลย

That's not one of the constructions in Thongtang's, but it works.

(Sounds artificial though 555)

Damkerng T.

Do we apply the concept of labile in some other language to modern Thai grammar?

@Fantasier Sounds like a typical ad nowadays, actually. :-)

Fantasier

@DamkerngT. Huh? What do you mean by "apply the concept of labile in some other language to modern Thai grammar"?

Damkerng T.

Is "labile verbs" an established ~~concept~~ term in Thai grammar?

Fantasier

Oh, no, I don't think so. But we don't even have seminal work on Thai grammar. Pan-Dialectal Grammar of Thai is great, but I would say it's a little too old, looking at the progress of general linguistics today.

Damkerng T.

nods -- I wonder about "labile verbs" because the term suggests that we have a special class of verbs which behave unlike other verbs.

And I doubt whether that's completely true in Thai. (I haven't thought it over, so I wouldn't be surprised if it turned out to be true, or partially true.)

Fantasier

14:24

nods

I came up with the idea of it quite spontaneously, so I could've missed something.

Damkerng T.

For example, we can say something similar to The door opens, This book reads well, etc., in Thai.

But in Thai we can also say This chicken eats deliciously, right? <-- note that the example doesn't work in English.

Fantasier

nods

That's interesting. I'll probably write a paper on this.

Recently I've had a lot of ideas for papers.

Damkerng T.

14:40

As for the Thai language, I'm really interested in how the language has changed, structurally, along with new idiomatic phrases, as a result of the influence of English.

I'm rather conservative, when it comes to my first language. (Or so I think. :-) On the other hand, I accept the truth that languages evolve. I just hope to see that we document the changes as comprehensively as we can.

Fantasier

We need moar lingwistttts

Damkerng T.

Hehe!

tchrist

What’s the opposite of miles?

Damkerng T.

That sounds like a riddle!

tchrist

Indeed.

Femiles. :)

Fantasier

14:51

Ha

Damkerng T.

Hah!

I was trying WordHippo, but its result didn't make any sense. It said "extreme" is the opposite of mileague. (wordhippo.com/what-is/the-opposite-of/mileage.html)

0

Q: How to translate the following sentence?

...a list of the ten most common and effective strategies resorted to by the agendas "hidden" to establish a manipulation of the population through the media. I understand the beginning and the end of above text, but the middle is incomprehensible to me.

translation

I'm not very sure, but I think it's quite likely that the writer uses English as a second language.

> ...a list of the ten most common and effective strategies resorted to by the agendas "hidden" to establish a manipulation of the population through the media.

I guess that their first language is not an Asian one, though.

Fantasier

15:14

Interesting thing is, that's not even a sentence!

CopperKettle

17:25

"I was astonished how many different small fishes were there" - am I right to guess that this word order violates the Penthouse Principle?

StoneyB

18:46

@CopperKettle As a matter of fact, no. There in this sentence can be understood as the ordinary locative = "in that place" rather than the expletive used in the existential construction.

@DamkerngT. This chicken eats deliciously hasn't got wide currency, but This wine drinks well is coming to be employed by wine critics.

There's nothing to prohibit you from saying this chicken eats deliciously if you come up with a situation where you need to distinguish that from tastes delicious. For instance, DamkerngT's chicken recipe is rather bland at first taste, but it eats deliciously, gliding across the tongue and past the uvula with a Straussian glissando, and leaving behind an enchantingly velvet coat on the palate.

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