Language Overflow - 2015-11-28

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4:43 AM

> A: I have no question.
B1: Me(,) too.
B2: Me(,) either.
B3: Me(,) neither.

I think I'm okay with either B2 or B3, but B1? Hmm... B1's strange, isn't it?

4

Q: Grammatically correct? 'big fat funny cats' and 'fat silly cats'

As someone who didn't emphasize on learning grammar at all, I still sometimes find a case that calls for grammar rules. I was asked which one is correct: fat silly cats or silly fat cats? Intuitively, I found nothing wrong with both of them. So I searched the web. The Adjective Order I found f...

adjectives word-order

I changed my accept vote!

I hope Mari-Lou A is okay with it.

"Dictionary definitions suggest that the usage of "improve on" should follow this pattern: <doer> improve on <result>" <doer> is an odd looking term in dictionaries, so this idea is your own, perhaps? Could you add a real definition from a dictionary to your question? — Damkerng T. 8 secs ago

I took the bait. Hope that it won't get out of hand.

I've been thinking about how to put it succinctly. I could (and should) write an answer, but I'll admit that I'm too lazy to write anything long today, so I'll put the "solution" I come up with for your problem in this comment (feel free to include or expand on--or even argue with--my idea in your answers): We solve a problem when we want a solution or an answer. We fix a problem when we want to repair it (the problem) or to make it work properly. — Damkerng T. 2 days ago

On second thought, my idea would be even better if I included "or a way out": We solve a problem when we want a solution, or an answer, or a way out.

3 hours later…

8:18 AM

So, in the context of sports, if John is a better player than Jack, could I write the following? "John improves on Jack." — meatie 42 mins ago

@meatie I can't see why not. (You've just written it.) It's just that it's not a normal thing people write because it's not a normal thing people would think of unless they have a good context. Back to your sentence, John improves on Jack. It is, in my opinion, perfectly fine in science fiction. (E.g., if John is a better clone of Jack.) — Damkerng T. 1 min ago

Not sure where the question is going to go, but that's probably what the OP really wants. I think they just want to experiment with the language.

@DamkerngT.I'd absolutely be amused if anyone ever said "John is an improvement upon Jack in sports" :-)

Sure. :-)

Has anyone here given this long essay a read? I'd like to see something from other linguists about points raised by the author

2

I haven't seen that article before. It looks like a good read. Thanks!

Glad I brought it up here :-)

8:26 AM

I think English is strongly dichotomous.

I mean there are many dichotomies in the language: real--unreal, past--non-past, singular--plural, definite--indefinite, and so on.

So...

> There is exactly one language on Earth whose present tense requires a special ending only in the third‑person singular. I’m writing in it. I talk, you talk, he/she talk-s – why just that?

Being strongly dichotomous is probably why.

Right... From a non-linguist point of view, I remember getting annoyed at all those grammatical terms thrown around by my Grammar teacher. It was at that point I gave up about grammar and focussed on just expressing myself clearly

All those terms made no sense to my 15 year old self :D

Same here.

:D

I can't really speak German (though I know some words), but I remember that my German friends usually reminded me that German grammar is more complex.

I'm just a casual German learner and I still have problems following those genders around German nouns

For example, a cat is "die Katze", dog is "der Hund" and a horse is "das Pferd". die/das/der

When usually noting gender, die == feminine, das == neutral and der == masculine

Riiight!

So, that looks a little too arbitrary to me

8:38 AM

It's also strange that some words that I think should be feminine are actually neutral in German. For example, there is a movie called Das Boot.

This arbitrary nature is present even among inanimate objects. For example, Orange is somehow feminine while apple is masculine

So I just end up memorizing those nouns with their gender

Say, die Orange, not just Orange and der Apfel, not Apfel

I'm not sure how long I can continue doing this :P

I guess there is no any other way!

It's quite impressive that most native speakers of a language can handle this kind of thing in their own language pretty well.

My native language doesn't have this problem and English doesn't either

So, when I came across this in Hindi and German, you can imagine my confusion :-)

In English, for example, people usually have a good idea whether they should use a or the or nothing!

@S.R.I I think I can!

Indians can't be expected to do that. They use 'the' everywhere!

8:46 AM

LOL

> this muttly vocabulary is a big part of why there’s no language so close to English that learning it is easy.

I daresay that my L1 is probably easier to learn than English. (Putting the accent, pronunciation, and spelling aside.)

It's like in English, we have to say mo-DERN-ity, while in Thai you can say any possible combination, and no one would say you're wrong. That alone lowers the bar a lot.

This doesn't mean that I meant to say Thai is an easy language. I think it accommodates more choices and alternatives.

I was kinda amused to see the word muttly, a reference to muttley character in cartoons :-)

I even made that auto-correction to motley :P

:D

Order doesn't matter in Thai? As in, Subject-Verb-Object?

It's typically in that order, but in reality, the language is much more flexible.

When the order is atypical, it's usually accompanied with particles and changes of tones (Thai is a tonal language).

Hmm... it's not easy to explain that concisely in English.

Damn, you just made me curious enough to give Thai a look. The tonal nature makes me lose interest :-)

9:01 AM

LOL -- Sorry about that!

Here is good news: you can use the wrong tones most of the time and you'll still be understood just fine.

No no, I'm not interested in my speech troubles. It's the listening comprehension overhead that's problematic

I see. I think probably some Thai vowels and triphthongs could be more challenging.

And a small bunch of unaspirated consonants.

For example, if you were to tell me something in an atypical tone, I might not notice anything and completely misunderstand you

Oh, you can ignore those additional hints, and still get the meaning just fine as well, imho.

So, it's not like Chinese, with a strong tonal dependency?

9:04 AM

It's like "Tarzan likes Jane" being uttered as "Like Jane (na), Tarzan." <-- You can ignore (na) and it should still be okay.

@S.R.I It's pretty much like some dialects of Chinese at the core.

Ah, I see. Unfortunately, I have to give that a miss :-)

That's okay. :D

I think most Thais don't know how good they're when it comes to context-sensitive related ambiguities. This doesn't mean that they're better, it's just that the language tends to encourage them to solve ambiguity using the context.

For example, back to "Like Jane, Tarzan". It could mean either "Tarzan likes Jane" or "Jane likes Tarzan".

("Like Jane, Tarzan" ~ รักเจนนะ ทาร์ซานน่ะ; "Tarzan likes Jane" ~ ทาร์ซานรักเจนนะ; "Jane likes Tarzan" ~ เจนรักทาร์ซานนะ)

Oh, I should've written ชอบ instead of รัก. :-) รัก ~ love, ชอบ ~ like

Doesn't matter, can't read :-O

All I see are box characters :D

I guessed as much. I included the texts in the case you wanted to have Google Translate or something translates them.

Weirdly enough, I tried setting the page encoding to UTF-8 and Thai. Neither worked

9:13 AM

Must be because of the font.

Possibly, I don't have Asian fonts installed

I think the encoding of this chat is UTF-8, if I'm not mistaken.

(which is great for language discussions!)

I can see that text in my emacs window \o/

Yay!

too many squigglies, that Thai

Google translated both "love" and "like" to love

"Tarzan, Jane, my love" :-D

9:18 AM

:D

3 hours later…

12:34 PM

@Dam it's your mission to find out what the native language of that OP could be.

"to feel us lucky"? — Cerbrus 2 days ago

But the OP is Shog9!

\o BTW

No no, I mean the answerer.

I'm about to go sleep in less than a minute.

@S.R.I But is English really different from other languages in an odd way? I think not.

Sleep tight!

"as you are elected by ..." tilts the weight to South Asia.

"to newly elected our three moderators" suggests "probably a non-native speaker".

"let's have a dream to be a moderator in future" suggests "probably Far East".

Still inconclusive. Insufficient data.

4 hours later…

5:00 PM

Good afternoon! @snailboat

Anonymous

5:19 PM

Morning! :-)

How are you? (I'm glad to see your smiley, BTW)

(I missed most of the discussion before the NOOO yesterday. :-)

Anonymous

I'm just not feeling too well physically so I might be a little grumpy, or might have a little trouble concentrating

Anonymous

So I'll have to be actively anti-grumpy! :-)

Or maybe just let it go! :-)

Anonymous

With new Grump-Off™!

Anonymous

5:34 PM

Well, I don't know what I need to let go, so maybe I've already forgotten.

I think I have a bad nail. Hmm... what's the word for it? When your nail hurts you.

Hmm... my bilingual dict says "ingrown nail".

I don't think it's really growing in. :-)

@DamkerngT. hangnail?

Anonymous

We don't really have a general term for fingernail/toenail pain

Could be. I can't see the part that hangs though.

Anonymous

Ingrown nails hurt, though!

5:40 PM

Oh, by the way, it's a toenail. :-)

@snailboat It's kinda itchy rather than hurt at the moment.

Anonymous

You could say "Ow! My toenail hurts!"

I'm pretty sure it will hurt more tomorrow.

Anonymous

Oh

Anonymous

Is it infected?

Have you hit it? Maybe you should see a doctor.

5:41 PM

Not really. It's not that bad. I have it sometimes on this or that nail. :-)

It's swelling a little right now.

Just a little.

My nails were disintegrating, and it turned out I had fungus, so I've been taking antibiotics to get rid of that since July. (0:

This time it's my right middle toenail.

Anonymous

Sometimes people get bleeding under the nail (subungual hematoma) and can lose the nail temporarily if it's not treated

Anonymous

Ohh, I hope your toes are doing better now!

Ah, I used to lose both nails of my big toes!

Thanks!

Anonymous

5:44 PM

Wearing shoes that don't fit properly can make your toenails grow funny, too

Playing badminton too hard could make you lose your toenails too!

(I wouldn't be surprised if ballerinas and ballerinos would lose their nails sometimes.)

Anonymous

Lots of women wear shoes that are too small or don't fit comfortably

Anonymous

But lots of men wear shoes that are too big! :-)

True!

Anonymous

My brother did ballet

5:46 PM

I think I used to be wearing too big shoes in almost all my childhood.

For an economical reason.

@snailboat especially politicians.

@snailboat Cool!

Anonymous

Politicians wear shoes that are too big?

@snailboat Too big for them. (0:

@snailboat Great!

Ballet dancing looks rather painful for me. :D

Anonymous

5:49 PM

Ballet is really hard on you

nods

Anonymous

They have special shoes

Do they really have to literally stand on their toes?

Anonymous

A pointe shoe is a type of shoe worn by ballet dancers when performing pointe work. Pointe shoes were conceived in response to the desire for dancers to appear weightless and sylph-like and have evolved to enable dancers to dance en pointe (on the tips of their toes) for extended periods of time. They are normally worn by female dancers, though male dancers may wear them for unorthodox roles such as the ugly stepsisters in Cinderella, or in dance companies that feature men dancing as women, such as Les Ballets Trockadero. They are manufactured in a variety of colors, most commonly in shades of...

Ouch! That's what I mean!

And men have to stand like that while holding a woman up high, even!

(Or so I think. I don't know how they really dance, anyway.)

Anonymous

5:52 PM

Those are mainly used by female dancers

The photo "Typical pointe shoe wear, in which the fabric has worn through to expose the box" on that page looks worse than my worn-out badminton shoes!

Anonymous

They make pointe work less painful but it's still really hard on your feet

nods

BTW, most of my old badminton shoes had a hole on them.

Anonymous

Eep! :-)

I think I used to have to change the shoes every 6 months and new racket string every 3 months.

Anonymous

5:55 PM

Wow! You played hard :-)

@snailboat Not as hard as professionals, though. :D

Anonymous

I played badminton and tennis, but not very well

I used to play tennis, but my shoes lived longer. (0:

Anonymous

Tennis is a surprisingly tough workout :-)

@CopperKettle I think it's because badminton courts are smaller, so the shoes would be worn out sooner.

5:56 PM

@snailboat Yes, and a great game!

@snailboat I can play tennis only funnily! :/

:-)

Anonymous

I played volleyball too, but that was much easier on me

@DamkerngT. because you have to wiggle across the field a lot? (0:

Aye!

For Noyabrsk, the ideal sport was table tennis, since it required little room. (0:

So I played that too. (0:

Anonymous

5:58 PM

Oh, that's fun!

I like table tennis too! Though I'm just a beginner player.

Yes!

Anonymous

I'm bad at all of those games.

Anonymous

I guess I'm okay at volleyball :-)

@snailboat If only we had a game that used guitars as the racket...

Anonymous

Nitrate!

Anonymous

6:00 PM

Poor guitars

I found the website of the sports complex I used to play table tennis in.

Oh, nice! That brings back some memories, I think. :-)

@DamkerngT. Yes. I remember it was way, way bigger. (0:

It still looks like a big place in the photo.

Anonymous

It does

6:02 PM

@snailboat If I were a foot or two taller, I would love playing volleyball even more.

Yes, it has a large hall for playing football and some smaller halls, and a large swimming pool.

Anonymous

Were you a little kettle back then?

@snailboat Yes (0:

I starred that for @Ϻ.Λ.Ʀ.

Some guy shot a video of fog in Noyabrsk when it was minus 45C

Туман. в Ноябрьске мороз - 45*

6:07 PM

Wow, Gone Girl is weird. (This is the first time I've watched it.)

@CopperKettle Looks foggy!

@DamkerngT. Yes, then a real cold spell hits, it's sometimes foggy for some reason..

Anonymous

What is Gone Girl?

@snailboat a movie

imdb.com/title/tt2267998

@snailboat It's a movie based on a novel.

(I think)

Anonymous

>
With his wife's disappearance having become the focus of an intense media circus, a man sees the spotlight turned on him when it's suspected that he may not be innocent.

Anonymous

6:09 PM

That sentence is grammatical but pretty clunky

Hehe!

I wouldn't've noticed that myself!

Anonymous

Does it sound fine to you?

nods

@snailboat With a clunky sentence used in an attempt to describe the gist of a movie in a whiff, the reviewer sees the grammatical spotlight turned on him when Snailboat evaluates the fruits of his efforts.

2

It sounds literary too me.

Anonymous

6:11 PM

Maybe it's just me :-)

Anonymous

Someone star Copper Kettle!

(0:

Anonymous

Yay

Your wish is my command...

Anonymous

Give me tasty muffins!

6:13 PM

[tasty muffins] for snailboat. :-D

Anonymous

Om, nom, nom

Yay!

[and a cup of tea]

Anonymous

Parfait !

The tea is sponsored by CopperKettle. CopperKettle--the best kettle for all kinds of tea.

6:14 PM

We are glad you liked it!

@DamkerngT. (0:

Of the modern movies, I watched Interstellar some days ago. It's passable.

Anonymous

I've heard of that one

Oh, it's coming up soon over here. Next month, I think.

I'm looking forward to it.

Anonymous

What system do they travel to?

@snailboat The other one where the space station is hit by debris is a bit better, IMHO.

@snailboat They go into a black hole into some faraway galaxy.

Anonymous

Oh!

6:17 PM

..In order to find a new home for humanity.

Anonymous

A wormhole!

@snailboat Yes, that thing!

A possible result: spaghetti humanity

Of the recent SF movies, I liked Source Code: actors play well, the scenario is "believable".

@DamkerngT. I would remain silent on that issue lest I be a spoiler.

Oh, I like that one too. The final scene was quite a shock!

6:20 PM

The main actor is great..

@CopperKettle Thanks for not spoiling the plot. :D

@CopperKettle I just saw him in Nightcrawler a couple days ago.

He looked different from when he was in Source Code.

@DamkerngT. I will check out that, thanks!

I hope you'll like it. (It's a dark movie, though.)

Anonymous

I haven't seen any movies recently

@DamkerngT. I like the Noir genre. (0:

6:22 PM

Oh, you'll like it, then. :D

Anonymous

Though I want to see the movie version of The Martian at some point!

@snailboat Ah, we have lots of movies about Mars, I think.

@snailboat Have you read the book (is there one)?

I can't wait to see The Martian. I'm a fan of both the director and the actor.

Anonymous

Yes, I recommend the book!

Anonymous

6:23 PM

It's a quick read.

I bought its Kindle edition.

The Martian (Weir novel)

The Martian is a 2011 science fiction novel. It was the second novel by American author Andy Weir and the first published under his own name. It was originally self-published in 2011 after which Crown Publishing purchased the rights and re-released it in 2014. The story follows an American astronaut, Mark Watney, as he becomes stranded alone on Mars in the year 2035 and must improvise in order to survive. The Martian, a film adaptation directed by Ridley Scott and starring Matt Damon, was released in October 2015. == Plot summaryEdit == NASA astronaut Mark Watney, a botanist and mechanic...

Iran produces some great movies. I've been revisiting my IMDB folder, and chanced upon this

imdb.com/title/tt1832382

"A married couple are faced with a difficult decision - to improve the life of their child by moving to another country or to stay in Iran and look after a deteriorating parent who has Alzheimer's disease."

Anonymous

I think a married couple are is more typical of BrE than AmE

I have a hunch that it's rare in both dialects.

It sounds like a good plot, BTW.

It's a superb movie.

Anonymous

6:31 PM

Why not check corpora and see? :-) You can compare COCA and BNC results for "a married couple [v]" and see how many fit the pattern, then adjust per mille

@CopperKettle I'll keep that in mind, in case they run it over here.

Anonymous

Since COCA is a larger corpus

Being lazy, I'm going to try GN.

@DamkerngT. Well, I just downloaded it in 20 minutes over the net. (0:

LOL

I guess that's another way to watch it. :D

6:32 PM

Have you watched The Pianist? Such a great film.

Definitely! And it's indeed a great film!

@DamkerngT. (づ｡◕‿‿◕｡)づ

I re-watched it even. It's something special.

@Ϻ.Λ.Ʀ. Hee

Anonymous

I can't search corpora easily from my phone, but I can do it later.

Anonymous

6:34 PM

telegraph.co.uk/finance/personalfinance/capital-gains-tax/…

Anonymous

> Crucially, a married couple are entitled to only one main residence exemption between them, regardless of the number of homes they have or the proportions in which they are owned.

Wow

@snailboat You know, there exists something named Copyright here. ಠ_ಠ

It looks like it's indeed a BrE thing! (A/The married couple are)

>
https://books.google.com/ngrams/graph?content=A+married+couple+is%2CA+married+couple+are%2CA+married+couple+was%2CA+married+couple+were%2CThe+married+couple+is%2CThe+married+couple+are%2CThe+married+couple+was%2CThe+married+couple+were&year_start=1800&year_end=2000&corpus=18&smoothing=3&share=&direct_url=t1%3B%2CA%20married%20couple%20is%3B%2Cc0%3B.t1%3B%2CA%20married%20couple%20are%3B%2Cc0%3B.t1%3B%2CA%20married%20couple%20were%3B%2Cc0%3B.t1%3B%2CThe%20married%20couple%20are%3B%2Cc0%3B.t1%3B%2CThe%20married%20couple%20were%3B%2Cc0

Anonymous

Why are you trying to teach me about copyright?

6:36 PM

> rule #0: Jokes also follow all the laws and rules and conventions other boring copyright stuff follows.

The graph is entirely different in AmE.

Anonymous

Oh! I'll never mention that one ion again!

@DamkerngT. That's one heck of an ngram.

Anonymous

I'll pretend it doesn't exist.

@snailboat You may use it with attribution.

Possibly with a neat C-circle.

Anonymous

6:38 PM

Use what?

Nitrate.

For explosives.

OK I mixed stuff up again.

Anonymous

I haven't heard of "nitrate". I think you made it up.

Anonymous

I don't think it exists.

NO3 has a charge of -1.

Anonymous

Nope, doesn't ring a bell.

6:39 PM

And it's stable 'cause Y-aromaticity.

@snailboat Nitroglycerin . . .

BOOM

It has three nitrate groups.

Anonymous

Never heard of it! You're so silly.

Anonymous

Stop making up ions.

^_^

Nitrate esters are common ingredients for explosives.

OK.

(/¯◡ ‿ ◡)/¯ ~ ┻━┻

Hey @Snail what's nitrate BTW?

Anonymous

A site for rating nits?

6:41 PM

Dunno. You tell me.

Current nit rate: 3000 eggs/day

Anonymous

That's a pretty high rate!

Hehe!

@DamkerngT. Wow.

Anonymous

Snails can't manage that many eggs in a year.

6:43 PM

"When saying ‘eeny, meeny, miny, moe’, have you ever felt like you were kind of counting? Well, you are – in Celtic numbers, chewed up over time but recognisably descended from the ones rural Britishers used when counting animals and playing games. ‘Hickory, dickory, dock’ – what in the world do those words mean? Well, here’s a clue: hovera, dovera, dick were eight, nine and ten in that same Celtic counting list."

Dick = ten O_o

@Ϻ.Λ.Ʀ. It could mean a detective, even!

@CopperKettle I'll star if you remove the space between the first quotation mark and "When".

Anonymous

Decimal

Anonymous

Related?

6:45 PM

Possibly

Dec-

Anonymous

" spacing "

That's 10 in Greek.

Anonymous

December! The tenth month.

Counting from Chinese new year.

Anonymous

6:45 PM

Right after October and November, the eighth and ninth months.

(I'm reading the article "starred" in this chat)

Anonymous

And September, the seventh.

Anonymous

Silly intercalators.

Ahh, @Snail any reason counting months starts from spring?

Persian new year starts from spring.

"If someone were told he had a year to get as good at either Russian or Hebrew as possible, and would lose a fingernail for every mistake he made during a three-minute test of his competence, only the (?) masochist would choose Russian – unless he already happened to speak a language related to it."

6:47 PM

LOL

(0:

Anonymous

@Ϻ.Λ.Ʀ. Where do you suppose July and August come from?

@snailboat Caesar and Augustus

@CopperKettle No, the use of the article is correct.

We're implying that we know the person enough that we can call him 'masochist'.

Anonymous

January and February?

@snailboat Loading Failed. Try again later.

6:50 PM

"normal languages don’t dangle prepositions in this way. Spanish speakers: note that El hombre quien yo llegué con (‘The man whom I came with’) feels about as natural as wearing your pants inside out. "

Anonymous

There used to be ten months in their calendar.

Anonymous

It started in March, possibly due to agriculture.

@snailboat O_O 35 days each, or were there no solar references in making the calendar?

Anonymous

There should be a good article on this on Wikipedia

Anonymous

Their calendar wasn't very good, though.

Anonymous

6:54 PM

en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roman_calendar

Anonymous

You can read about the wonder that is intercalation! :-)

@CopperKettle I know someone who wears his pants like that.

His shirt has a big S on it. :D

Anonymous

Kal-El!?

Superboy (Kal-El)

This article is about the original Superboy, who is Superman as a boy. For similarly named DC Comics characters, see Superboy. The name of Superman as a boy, Superboy has adventures that occur in the relative past to those of Superman and take place predominantly in his hometown of Smallville. Superboy is from the destroyed planet Krypton, where he was born under the name Kal-El, and lives on Earth under the secret identity of mild-mannered student Clark Kent. Debuting in 1944, the character was in continuous publication for 40 years, developing a supporting cast and mythos of his own, before DC...

Yes!

Anonymous

6:58 PM

John McWhorter likes to talk about how strange English is.

Anonymous

I don't know if English is really strange in any objective sense.

I wondered that myself.

Anonymous

Every language has things that set it apart from other languages.

Me neither.

Anonymous

Natural languages are not, as Chomsky imagined, essentially the same.

7:02 PM

"However, we might be reluctant to identify just which languages are not ‘mighty’, especially since obscure languages spoken by small numbers of people are typically majestically complex."

@snailboat He just loves his subject, to the delight of the reader.

Anonymous

I'd say "only a masochist"

@snailboat Me too, for some reason... although I get that it's a "generic THE".

Anonymous

Stranding isn't very common cross-linguistically

Anonymous

Although it's not unique to English

nods

Anonymous

7:07 PM

Did a native speaker write the?

@snailboat McWhorter is a native English speaker, methinks. (0:

Anonymous

Oh, you didn't say what that quote was from

Anonymous

I recognized the preposition shtick, though :-)

Anonymous

I think the sounds weird, at least without further context to make it possible

nods

I'll go and catch some Z's.. Good night, Snails, Muhammad, Damkerng!

@snailboat Even McWhorter makes mistakes. I think he gives sweet F.A. to small mistakes though. (0:

7:12 PM

Night Cu.

Anonymous

Rest well!

I shall! (0:

7:38 PM

Whoops. Forgot this is LO. (╯°□°）╯︵ ┻━┻

HEY! That repz!

Anonymous

7:54 PM

I'm just going to remove those messages, if you don't mind.

@snailboat Not at all

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Nov '1528

Language Overflow

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