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00:00 - 12:0012:00 - 00:00

00:00
Ugh.
Who's voting to reopen meatie's questions?
Which one? ... it's not in my review q
@StoneyB The review's over.
Was one reopened?
Hey BTW what's the noun for 'being rudimentary' @Stoney?
@StoneyB Nope.
@inɒzɘmɒЯ.A.M Gimme a sentence.
00:10
@Stoney when in doubt, you can check here. The only thing I see there without scrolling is 'leave closed', hehe.
> "being rudimentary" isn't divided by a line, it's a spectrum and you know what happens when we draw lines in spectra: . . .
I had no idea that existed.
@StoneyB It exists after 10k rep on grad sites and 2k on betas.
That is, the list in which all of the reviews are visible.
Before 2k/10k, you can only see the history of your own reviews.
Can meatie vote to reopen his own qq?
@StoneyB Not sure, prolly.
Lemme check.
Yeah.
You can vote to reopen any question you haven't already voted on.
00:15
> A user must have the "view close votes" privilege in order to vote to reopen their own question. Users with the "cast close and reopen votes" privilege can vote to reopen any closed question, not only their own. On established sites, these privileges are awarded at 250 and 3000 reputation points, respectively (beta sites have different thresholds).
Facepalm
This is a heaven for our troll.
Hang on, we don't know it's them.
"Rudimentary" isn't a box with hardline edges, it's a fuzzy blob at one end of a spectrum.
@StoneyB Hmm, good alternative!
@inɒzɘmɒЯ.A.M I didn't scroll up, are you writing a meta post denouncing the grammar tag?
@jimsug Not yet, but close to.
I'll do it tomorrow.
00:17
Okay then, I'll let you.
Despite my assurances to the contrary, my activity on ELL has waned.
@Jim writing this was the hardest (i.e. single) step:
Life got in the way, and all.
0
A: What do I need to know about tagging?

inɒzɘmɒЯ.A.MHow to find out if a tag is good to have/make I present to you, the MAR Tag Test™ (abbreviated as MATT), a short test with three possible responses to each question, designed as a crude way of diagnosing the health of a (imaginary) tag. Imagine X, a tag$\,\ldots$ \begin{array}{|c|l|c|c|c|}\hli...

Oh
I was more about to go on an extended rant about why [grammar] sucks as a tag.
Now I can do it more "officially".
I figure many [avid] users on ELL don't understand how the tagging system works and we don't want many downvotes if we want to do something about it.
00:24
1. It doesn't help you find specific questions
2. It doesn't specifically categorise questions
3. It doesn't support the favoriting or ignoring functions
4. Its questions don't have any meaningful commonalities beyond "it's a thing about English"
5. If destroyed, only a third of its questions will be left untagged, and let's face it, they were probably undertagged to start with.
I reckon it should've been blacklisted from the start.
@jimsug Hmm, let's see what its score is in the MATT test. :P
Note the date on this: our first week in operation.
9
Q: What are tags good for?

StoneyBI find it difficult to understand why we expend so much effort and discussion on tags. I’ve browsed around other SE sites, and I can see that tags serve a useful, perhaps even essential, purpose in filtering questions related to a specific language or application. But I don’t see a similar purp...

I gave it three.
@StoneyB Yeah, I saw that.
@jimsug I ended up with -1. :P
I started to write a meta rant about [grammar] and was going to reference it.
@inɒzɘmɒЯ.A.M You win.
00:30
Well, @Stoney @Jim, it's my time to shine.
But really, the main problem is that the system forces people to tag.
But I'll shine tomorrow, since there is no sun at 4 a.m.
I would venture that many of the questions tagged solely with grammar would have no tags, if their authors had a choice.
cui bono?
-1
Q: CONFUSION ABOUT USAGE OF WORDS

VibhuCan anyone explain the correct usage of 'have had' and 'had had' in English language? It will be helpful if you can explain it with examples.

6
Q: he looked relaxed, if pale -- "if pale"?

Cookie MonsterExample with a context: "It would be boring without gossip," Putin said, smiling easily before television cameras. He looked relaxed, if pale. Could you please explain how this expression is actually used? I have a hunch that this must mean the same thing as saying even though he was pale, ...

Why on Earth did this not get edited?!
@inɒzɘmɒЯ.A.M Don't worry dude, I voted to delete.
So with my luck we'll get privileges elevated the day I hit 5k :P
Goes to downvote @Jim
00:37
rude :P
0
Q: Question about verbs

juliaCan there be more than one verb in a sentence, such as one linking verb and one action verb?

[syntax]
The problem is
Actually
This is the main, main problem
despite what I said earlier.
Speak
In full
Sentences.
What is the
main
problem?
[This reminds me of learning semaphore flags in Cub Scouts]
The main, main problem is that this site, in particular and perhaps like some other language sites, suffers from the problem that people asking questions don't necessarily know which tags are appropriate.
On SO, if you're working on [java] and you have a problem, you know it.
Here, if you ask say... this:
0
Q: More as noun or adverb?

user2747502 There's More to Life Than This I Need More. What do you think about the word "more" in these two sentences ? 1 look like noun and 2 adverb to me.

How on earth was the person asking meant to know that they were asking about pronouns?
So then that shifts the burden of retagging onto the answerers, and that... is a problem, apparently.
Or fused determiners.
Right.
But in any case, my point is: they couldn't possibly have known that that was what their question was about.
00:43
Fersher.
That's not to say that they shouldn't have tagged it with [noun] or [adverb] (which still would have been wrong, but at least more precise than [grammar])
But yeah. It's like asking a completely blind person to describe the colour carpet they want.
How the hell are they meant to do that? They don't even have a concept of colour.
A resolution: I will retag any future question I answer.
AND retitle it.
Well, you don't need to. But maybe the ones with grammar :P
Or blow it up.
00:46
If we destroyed the grammar tag tonight, you'd lose the dupehammer, right?
Presumably. Would I miss it? No.
ha.
It's come into play about four times, and every time it's a complete shock.
Mmm.
Perhaps because it's not on all dupe votes.
So it makes it unexpected, when in fact the behaviour is very regular.
Unfamiliarity bias.
00:49
sighs Does a comma at the end of a sentence give anyone a sense of unresolved tension?
I think it does to me, but I'm not sure,
Graves had a poem about that.
@jimsug It burns my lungs.
Hmm ... I find four references to it on Google, but not the poem itself. ... It was the last poem in one of his collections, and its last line was
Ending on a careless comma,
My son and I were listening to Bulgarian folk music this afternoon, and at one point he said to me "Wow, they really don't like full cadences, do they!"
0
Q: What does "every fourth person" mean?

user21214What does this mean? "every fourth person is fat."

If we kill [grammar], [meaning] will be the default, I suspect.
However, meaning is better-defined than grammar; it's not as easy to say "eh, that fits, I guess" and leave the [grammar] tag on.
Anonymous
@jimsug Well,
01:03
Here's a fine collection of tags:
0
Q: Is "to spite" or "spite" the same as "despite"?

BlakeM114Ok so i said a joke to my friend saying "i hope she sends me pics just despite you", then he said "it's not, "just to despite you" you dumbass, it's spite, not despite, kill yourself", "you thought "to spite" was, "despite". I'm pretty sure they meant the same thing, but i just wanted to know if ...

Anonymous
On Japanese.SE, the tag "japanese" is blacklisted, but there's an "english-to-japanese" tag. Unfortunately, people type in "japanese" and they get that tag instead, although most of the questions aren't about translating English into Japanese.
We need an [english-to-english] tag.
Anonymous
Oh, that reminds me!
Anonymous
In Japanese, a dictionary of English written in English is an 英英辞典 ei-ei jiten, literally 'English-English dictionary'. The Longman Dictionary of Contemporary English is called the ロングマン現代英英辞典 ronguman gendai ei-ei jiten 'Longman Modern English-English Dictionary', for example.
Anonymous
01:08
Do you think English speakers are likely to know what an "English-English dictionary" is?
Anonymous
Actually, I should rephrase that. Do you think English speakers are likely to understand the term?
I would take an English-English dictionary to be a dictionary of English English, as opposed to Scots English, Welsh English, Irish English, American English, &c.
Anonymous
A-ha!
An essential tool for fans of Golden Age murder mysteries.
Aha! The first shipment of my wife's birthday presents just came in.
Klaeber's Beowulf (4th ed) and Jolly's Popular Religion in Late Saxon England.
Anonymous
So studying Japanese has definitely influenced me there. ei-ei is used in Japanese even for American English dictionaries. The Collins COBUILD Advanced Dictionary of American English is titled コウビルド英英辞典(米語版) kōbirudo ei-ei jiten (beigo ban) 'COBUILD English-English Dictionary (American English Version)', for example.
Anonymous
01:13
I think I'll stick to "monolingual dictionary", then.
But that doesn't tell you which lingua.
Anonymous
Oh, right. But I mean, in context that might be all you need to say. Otherwise, "monolingual English dictionary" or "monolingual dictionary of English" or the like.
As opposed to dictionaries that speak with forkéd tongue.
Anonymous
I heard someone abbreviate usual to [juːʒ]. They said just the us'.
Anonymous
But just the us' looks incomprehensible to me.
Anonymous
01:20
I can't figure out how to transcribe what they wrote.
Anonymous
I mean, without using IPA.
Anonymous
I want to use eye dialect in a way that communicates the abbreviation to readers.
Anonymous
But I don't seem to be able to.
Just the uzh-?
02:04
0
A: what does the word "screens" mean in a context of living room?

Chu Wa Tim TimMostly likely it means curtains or blind, things attached to a window to block light coming into the room.

I wonder what kind of screen it is.
Because the first kind of screen I had in mind when I read the OP's question was "insect screens".
There are many possible kinds of screens!
02:21
I posted my answer anyway!
Anonymous
02:49
I turned one of my comments into an answer.
Anonymous
Now I have room for one more comment before I hit 3000 :-)
How about commenting this one: ell.stackexchange.com/q/70363/3281
:D
Ah, I hadn't seen the question you just posted an answer to!
About the prenominal vs. postnominal (or whiz-deletion), I was thinking of an answer along the line of property vs. situational characteristics, but my idea is still a little too loose.
0
A: 'Us' or 'We' when we remove 'About' from 'About Us'

Chu Wa Tim TimI think in that case, "US" is better. An interesting example would be a film in 2013, "Her". The director did not adopt the name "She". I wonder this is not about grammar rules but custom usage?

Hmm... but we have a song named She!
Anonymous
@DamkerngT. Which does sound like someone started a sentence and forgot to finish it :-)
Oh, right! The rest of the sentence is in the song!
Anonymous
@DamkerngT. Property versus situational? Like, individual versus stage-level?
02:57
Ah, I think they're similar ideas.
Situational is a bit more specific.
> Here are the data transferred in our system.
> Here are the transferred data in our system.
Anonymous
Oh man, that doesn't even sound grammatical to me . . . let me rejigger my grammartron so it temporarily accepts the old-fashioned use of data . . .
Anonymous
I expect Here's the data :-)
Ah, I see! I had an unwritten list of data (several kinds of them) in mind. :D
Anonymous
Hmmph, why does Here are the data sound so weird?
There's this interesting score:length correlation on answers... data.stackexchange.com/ell/query/edit/373340#graph
For score = -5
03:02
Like, Here are the data transferred in our system: a) ...; b) ...; c) ...
Anonymous
@DamkerngT. Ahh, it's just so hard to make my brain accept that!
@jimsug 7 rows!
@snailboat I see. Data is like water now!
Oh, that's an aggregate min/max/average
> Here is the data transferred in our system.
Here is the transferred data in our system.
I think these would sound better. :D
Anonymous
@DamkerngT. You know, people definitely still do use data are, and in certain grammatical contexts it sounds okay to me.
Anonymous
03:06
I can't figure out why it's so strange in an existential sentence.
Anonymous
Anyway, when data does take plural agreement, it's marked as formal.
@snailboat It looks like something worth pursuing!
Anonymous
Yeah, probably! Sorry I can't explain stuff sometimes :-)
@jimsug We have -7 answers too!?
Anonymous
Lowest scored answers: ell.stackexchange.com/…
03:10
I remember "out a dollar"!
Anonymous
Whoops, I used up my 3000th comment!
Anonymous
Now I'm on hiatus again :-)
Wow, lots of good singers on Britain's Got Talent!
Anonymous
Yay!
But the game is so brutal!
Anonymous
03:21
Do schools in Thailand have talent shows for kids?
Anonymous
Or is that a western thing?
Not many and not often in my school days. It's quite common nowadays.
In BGT, there are only 6 seats, and perhaps 20-30 singers.
The singers perform one at a time. Once the 6 seats were filled, the referee must take someone on the seats out if she wants to keep the newest performer.
(That's why it's brutal. At one point she exclaimed, "I must be the most hated person in Britain now.")
:D
03:49
I feel weird looking at the number!
Good thing that today is not Friday the 13th. :P
 
1 hour later…
Anonymous
05:01
@DamkerngT. You're 1/6th of the way to 100,000! :-)
@snailboat Ah, that's very far away!
Anonymous
05:51
Sorry, I meant:
Anonymous
You're 1/3rd of the way to 50,000! :-)
You're 2/3rd of the way to 25,000 :3
06:17
Is it wrong that I'm judging this question more harshly because of its author?
@jimsug The difficulty that the OP had was figuring that the verb is run up, not run up to. A native wouldn't misparse it, but a non-native unaccustomed to the strange ways of English prepositions can easily be confused. Here's a question involving a similar confusion, which makes the difficulty for non-natives more obvious. — Ben Kovitz 3 hours ago
(The author of the question, not that comment.)
 
3 hours later…
09:44
0
Q: Different meanings of [waɪt naɪt(s)]

BuckminsterA question to native speakers: what would your first response be, when you hear [waɪt naɪt] or [waɪt naɪts]? What is the first image that comes to your mind? Answers from people from different English-speaking countries (United States, United Kingdom, Canada, Australia) are welcome – I guess, the...

I seem "unqualified" to answer that question (if that's qualified as one!). But I would think of "white knights."
10:05
for festivals in other cities see: White Night festivals. The White Nights Festival in St. Petersburg, Russia is an annual international arts festival during the season of the midnight sun. The White Nights Festival consists of a series of classical ballet, opera and music events and includes performances by Russian dancers, singers, musicians and actors, as well as famous international guest stars. The Scarlet Sails celebration is the culmination of the White Nights season, the largest public event anywhere in Russia with the annual estimated attendance about one million people, most of whom...
White Nights is when you have the sun shining almost all the night through in Russia. People in St Pete like to go walking during white nights
Kinda happens here too, with sun setting very late and rising very, very early.
In the weeks surrounding the summer equinox
In my native Noyabrsk the white nights are even more prominent than in St Pete
@jimsug I think your assessment is sound.
"Wat daz witenitestand for?"
That's a question for Siri!
@inɒzɘmɒЯ.A.M :D
Anonymous
[waɪt] could be wight or white, or possibly Wyatt, or with liquid vocalization light or right, or maybe why it in connected speech, or what with the right accent, or...
Anonymous
Anyway, it seems more like a survey, designed to be primarily opinion-based, than an actual SE question.
Apparently, Siri took it as "white night" without any hesitation.
Anonymous
Well done, Siri!
10:30
@DamkerngT. Haha!
Anonymous
I thought of the same thing @Fantasier did, of course, but the next thing that occurred to me was book nine of the Dresden Files series, White Night
Anonymous
It's a great series, although it starts out a bit slow. It gets better with each book :-)
White Night sounds like a good novel title.
Anonymous
It has a triple (quadruple?) meaning.
Anonymous
10:33
At least in the context of the book :-)
I guess so! (as soon as I saw White Council of Wizards)
Anonymous
6
A: Which between "crap" and "shit" is more rude?

FrankI view shit as a swear word, crap as a rude word and poo (poop) as a word suitable for children to use. Shit always seems to be a bit of an Americanism to me which weakens its impact a little for my ears, rather like an Englishman calling someone a motherfucker. It just doesn't sound right; it's ...

Anonymous
Profanisaurus is my favorite dinosaur.
@snailboat Wait, is that real?
Anonymous
@DamkerngT. No, they were blending profanity with thesaurus.
Anonymous
10:36
That's as in 'treasury', not sauros as in 'lizard'
Anonymous
But it invites the reanalysis :-)
Ahh
Could be an interesting dinosaur. :-)
Anonymous
Darn right!
Anonymous
I'd guess that a lot of people would think of dinosaurs when they see profanisaurus.
Anonymous
It really sounds much more like a dinosaur than a profanity thesaurus :-)
10:38
Indeed!
Anonymous
I'm not sure what a good coinage would be for a dictionary of taboo vocabulary.
1
Q: "We have known each other for some years now" - so is it a long time or short time?

Maulik VThe definition of 'some' reads as on OALD page (#3) a large number or amount of something But then the next entry says... (#4) a small amount or number of something I wonder if someone says ... We have known each other for some years now Or I met him some years back What ...

Oh, no! See what ELL's turned our mod into!
Isn't that a kind of question we would expect from some other learners?
Hmm... was that some large or small amount? :-)
1
Q: Is "to debate a person" a correct use of the verb "debate"?

Makoto KatoIs "to debate a person" a correct use of the verb "debate"? I looked up several dictionaries, but did not find such an example. However, when I searched Corpus of Contemporary American English by "debate him", it returned 26 results one of which is as follows: He knows Perot is much better kn...

I think so, but I couldn't find a good defn. in dict. either!
Anonymous
10:57
@DamkerngT. No, I think it was just indefinite :-)
Anonymous
I think the question about some is a good one.
Anonymous
The problem is that I think it might be hard to give general rules.
It could be, I just didn't expect it from Maulik.
Anonymous
Is it usually obvious in context? I would think that it is...
10:59
It is, for me.
Anonymous
Some meaning 'to a large extent' is relatively formal.
0
A: Is "to debate a person" a correct use of the verb "debate"?

Maulik VHere is the dictionary (WordWebOnline) that says it's possible to 'debate [someone]' debate: Argue with one another The example follows John debated Mary

I which we had it defined in some other dictionaries, not this one!
Maybe I should look it up in Garner's.
Anonymous
And some meaning '(at least) a small amount' is usually used in contrast to there being none, isn't it?
Anonymous
I think that in general some is just indefinite, though.
(Garner's MAU)
@snailboat Exactly!
I think some is mostly, very likely more than 2.
Though sometimes it turns out to be less than one!
Interesting. debate is not in Garner's MAU.
Maybe, to be on the safe side, learners should stick to debate with if they want to use it in the sense of debate with someone. But I wonder if it's really necessary to use with.
Anonymous
11:09
Necessary? No.
Anonymous
But it's less common for the person you're debating with to be represented by a direct object.
Anonymous
When it is the direct object, I think that the debate in question is probably a formal debate of one sort or another, like the sort where you go speak at a podium and gives speeches and have rebuttals.
A-ha! That fits the example in Merriamm Webster!
> The President debated his challenger in front of a live audience on Tuesday.
It also fits the OP's example:
> He knows Perot is much better known, and Lamm wants Perot to agree to debate him before the convention, so Party members can get to know them both.
The example on WordWebOnline is just vague.
> John debated Mary.
Anonymous
WordWebOnline is, as usual, low quality.
Anonymous
I don't know if it always represents a formal debate when used with that grammar, but I think it very often does, at a minimum.
Anonymous
11:16
I'm looking through corpus results.
Hmm, interesting! But IMO, it's a proper noun so no indefinite article here! I'll say exactly what Apple says in its manual- "If you have iphone 6...you can also use the Touch ID..."Maulik V ♦ 6 hours ago
A curious example of usage in iPhone's manual!
(It's spelled iPhone 6 in the manual, btw.)
0
A: What do I need to know about tagging?

inɒzɘmɒЯ.A.MUsing tags in searching Tags can be a very strong tool for searching. The more healthy a site's tagging system is, the more effective tag searching will be. Currently, tags is the second most applied tag on meta, which means users and editors on chemistry Stack Exchange do care about tags. Let's...

Third answer to that post done, now I can concentrate on Grammar bash™ on ELL.
Anonymous
I would never say "if you have iPhone 6".
Anonymous
That sounds ungrammatical.
Anonymous
It's always "if you have an iPhone 6".
Anonymous
11:19
Companies are well known to do weird things with language to try to protect their brands.
@snailboat Me neither.
Anonymous
Anonymous
> Use the trademark only as an adjective, never as a noun or verb, and never in the plural or possessive form.
Guess they're not linguists, but computer geeks.
Anonymous
Apparently you can say "I am googler than thou" or "That's the googlest search result I've ever seen", but not "I used Google today" or "I often use Google Image Search" or "Google's new product is great" or "I googled that earlier".
Anonymous
11:21
@inɒzɘmɒЯ.A.M No, they're lawyers.
Anonymous
The chances of computer geeks having written that is zero.
Even worse.
Anonymous
If you try to obey their guidelines, you can only say nonsense.
Anonymous
And of course, it rules out using google as a noun and a verb, which are the only two things it ever is.
Anonymous
If Apple uses the ungrammatical "if you have iPhone 6", I assume it's because they don't want iPhone to be genericized.
Anonymous
11:24
It doesn't mean it's actually a good example of English usage.
It sounds weird to me. I wonder if it's the only place in the manual.
@snailboat sounds like "if you have measles" to me
Anonymous
@CopperKettle That is exactly what I thought. :-)
If you have IPhone, don't be afraid, it's perfectly curable (0:
on early stages (0:
Anonymous
@CopperKettle Ooh, you capitalized the 'i', you rebel!
11:27
ah (0:
> A few simple gestures—tap, drag, swipe, and pinch—are all you need to use iPhone and its apps.
Anonymous
That sentence needs a the.
> Connecting cable. Use the Lightning to USB Cable (iPhone 5 or later) or the 30-pin to USB Cable (iPhone 4s) to connect iPhone to your computer to sync and charge.
Anonymous
Argh :-)
It looks like Apple did something purposely (and purposefully) in its manual.
Anonymous
11:28
Yeah, I presume it's something dumb in the name of branding.
Anonymous
Companies are pretty stupid when it comes to branding.
Anonymous
Anyway, I don't actually know why Apple does that. It just sounds wrong to me, that's all.
I've said that before when it's come up.
I think they seemed to try to make it sound like iPhone is a name, like someone's name.
Then they should have used Barney. Or Isolde.
11:43
3
Q: Wildfire: Cleanup without irritating moderators

Undo About Moderators don't like seeing a whole horde of flags in their precious flag queue. They dislike this even more when all the flags are from one user who is obviously running a search or query and flagging everything. However, this bad content shouldn't be ignored. This app (if it ends up...

That title has more than one parse.
hi people
@tchrist I believe that's the beautiful point about SE titles.
@user66288 Hullo!
what is the q&a site corresponding to this chat
is there any?
what languages do you know except english
Why?
(Sorry for being terse; I'm on a small device.)
11:47
i need help to learn languages
you are on a small device too tchrist
only one letter and one question mark
thats very few, enough for a small device
well, i am just intersted
ugugugugug
is it allowed to use languages different from english in this room, what are the rules, what can you hear
It depends.
11:50
You will be better received if you use capital letters and punctuation properly.
is anyone here who speaks arabic
depends on what
Depends on your conversation partners, that is others in the room.
@user66288 Put a question mark at the end and a capital at the beginning.
And capitalize languages.
Otherwise it seems unlettered or rude.
@user66288 I speak a dented broken version of Arabic.
@tchrist True.
Really, teach me a few arabic words please. I am curious
11:53
That's not how it works.
The word in English is Arabic.
(Your name is too comlpicated to add.)
And arabic is something else.
How does it then work?
@user66288 type @in and press tab, the rest will sort itself out.
11:54
@inɒzɘmɒЯ.A.M
@user66288 What is your goal from learning Arabic? Where are you from?
My goal is to understand arabic people.
Ana User66288.
Just to start with.
@user66288 Then I just can't go and tell you "here is some Arabic stuff".
That's not how you learn a language.
@user66288 There are no arabic people, only Arabic people.
@user66288 Huh?
11:57
Well you can, just tell me some Arabic stuff.
I learn it like that.
I am curious.
No one learns it like that.
I do.
What's your first language?
Then tell me how to learn it properly
Marry an Arabic boy.
11:58
Please keep in mind that I cannot afford a teacher.
I need to learn it alone.
The lad will teach you. :)
I guess she took my idea to heart.
I wonder what her first language was.
Me too.
مرحبا بک. ماسمک؟
00:00 - 12:0012:00 - 00:00

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