The Nineteenth Byte

DLosc

12:00 AM

@user Dew it

Jo King

@user "Hell world!" lol

exedraj

Quipu time!

DLosc

Sweet ^_^

Dude coinheringaahing

Welcome to the first Learn You A Lang For Great Good event! This time, the language is Quipu, a language inspired by Inca knotted strings! During the next 24 hours or so, feel free to suggest Quipu-inspired CMCs, ask questions about the language, or otherwise discuss it! You can find an interpreter for it here

9

@emanresuA Nope, still times out for n = 5 for me :P

And with that, I should head to bed o/

DLosc

To distinguish Quipu challenges from regular CMCs, I say let's call them QMCs

3

Bubbler

12:04 AM

Nice

emanresu A

QMC: Incrememnt a number

exedraj

Oh man writing Quipu programs is going to be so trippy with the different knots

Jo King

so it looks to me that operations are basically postfix, and other threads are needed for loops and functions?

New Posts

0

Q: Draw constraint system #18762389

Background Page 219 of A New Kind of Science (a book by Stephen Wolfram, the creator of Mathematica) shows an interesting 2D pattern generated by constraints. The relevant section in the book starts at page 210; you can browse other pages for more context. In short, the large binary image is the...

Jo King

\/
1&
++
/\

can't exactly post TIO links

DLosc

12:07 AM

@JoKing Yeah. Each thread is kind of a cross between a variable and a goto label. It has a value, and also it's a series of statements that you can jump to. Other than jumps, execution goes top to bottom, left to right.

QMC: Output the numbers 1 through 10.

(Maybe we should post the reply comment separate from the actual answer--that way the answer can use fixed font.)

Jo King

When the documentation says knot n - 1, does that mean the previous knot, or the n-1th knot (using the value of the previous evaluation?)

emanresu A

No clue

exedraj

wait so do knots have a separate stack or do they only have a single current value

emanresu A

QMC: Throw an error./

exedraj

@emanresuA NO

DLosc

12:13 AM

@JoKing n-1 means the previous knot; (n-1) means the value of the previous knot.

emanresu A

(preferably not a synaz eror)

exedraj

@emanresuA //

Jo King

ooh, i keep mixing up knot n-1 and thread n-1

emanresu A

@exedraj ^^^

DLosc

So for instance "jump to thread (n-1)" means "get the value K of the previous knot, then jump to the Kth thread"

exedraj

12:15 AM

@DLosc what does it mean by This knot merges with n - 2 and n - 1.?

DLosc

@exedraj That's the most confusing wording choice IMO

exedraj

well what does it mean?

DLosc

patience, I'm typing :)

I would explain it as "This knot forms a compound knot with the previous two knots." Sort of like how Jelly has some quicks that combine the previous two links.

exedraj

that still doesn't make much sense. like how does it combine the previous two knots

DLosc

So if you have something like this:

\/
1&
==
2&
**

Consider the ==, which means "jump to thread (n-1) if (n-2) equals zero."

In this program, n-2 is the input, and n-1 is a constant 1

So the == tests if the input equals zero. If it is equal to zero, execution jumps to thread 1

Jo King

12:22 AM

does it set the value of the current thread to the input if it jumps?

exedraj

Wait so is \/ / == / whatever a knot or a thread?

DLosc

@JoKing It sets the value of the current thread to the value of the last knot evaluated if it jumps, IIRC

emanresu A

Is Quipu TC?

Jo King

the last knot is the jump right?

DLosc

@exedraj \/ is a knot. A column of knots is a thread.

emanresu A

12:23 AM

It has finite memory, right?

DLosc

@JoKing Yes, which is one reason why it's important to know what the == evaluates to.

@emanresuA It uses unbounded integers, so theoretically it has infinite memory.

emanresu A

Oh I see, cool.

So is TC?

DLosc

Yes, I think so. But programming something that requires an arbitrarily sized list of integers would be quite a pain.

Jo King

you could probably simulate a stack by jumping to the same thread over and over again?

emanresu A

Mayb

DLosc

12:25 AM

@JoKing Only if you store the stack encoded as a single integer

Jo King

does a jump return to the original thread after the thread has been completed? does the the original thread retain the value it had or the new value? one of these assumptions is probably wrong

@DLosc incoming, 35 bytes

1&
++
/\
\n
/\
^^
1&
++
1@
%%
0#
>>

DLosc

Ooh, interesting! I wasn't expecting a single-thread answer

Jo King

without the newline it would be a about five lines shorter

DLosc

@JoKing No, a jump is just a goto, it doesn't return. Each thread retains its value whenever it's not executing. Does that answer your question?

Jo King

i think so. i was thinking of it as recursion i.e. insert a copy of the other thread into this thread

no stack simulation then

i really wish there was a evaluate to (n - (n - 1)) knot

DLosc

12:34 AM

@JoKing Yeah, I get why they're called threads for thematic reasons, but it does seem easy to confuse them with threads. Quipu threads are basically just blocks of code, but vertical (and with associated values).

QMC: Given a number N, count up from 1 to N. Or, if you prefer, you can start at 0, or stop at N-1.

Jo King

oh god, you're bringing input into this

DLosc

You gotta start using multiple threads sometime! ;)

emanresu A

1&
++
/\
\n
/\
^^
1&
++
\/
%%
0#
>>

I thnink

stolen from joking annd ssligthy modified

Jo King

umm, i don't think the input knot will keep returning the same thing?

DLosc

^

emanresu A

12:41 AM

Oh

Dammit

(Requires n copies of n to be inputted)

DLosc

You'll have to take input once and store it.

Jo King

what does \/ evaluate to at EOF?

DLosc

Not sure, but emanresu A's code results in a type mismatch error, so... not a number.

Jo King

so does 'merge' mean that (n-2) will skip over the clump of knots? and (n-1) refers to that clump? that seems to make sense

emanresu A

Does Quipu have any string handling?

Aside from ' and stuff

Like int-to-char, concatenate, etc?

Jo King

12:46 AM

apart from pushing and printing, i don't think so :(

emanresu A

z;9

That pan

Is someone going to create the LOTM post?

I can if no one's started yet

Bubbler

Go ahead

Browncat Programs

Ooh, I must document "QMC" in the wiki

emanresu A

Ok

DLosc

@JoKing It's null in the Scala interpreter

Jo King

12:48 AM

oof. is there even a way to check for that

@DLosc 64 bytes, but should be golfable

\/1&
  ++
  /\
  \n
  /\
  ^^
  1&
  ++
  0&
  []
  %%
  1&
  >>

DLosc

@JoKing I believe that's right, but I haven't tested it

Jo King

this program confirms it with []

DLosc

Aha

Jo King

now i really wish there was a copy of (n-2) so i could save a couple of lines with the newline printing

DLosc

Yeah. I tried a version using an extra thread, but it cost more bytes that way because of the indentation. Although, I didn't know the spaces between threads were optional...

OldSandboxPosts

1:00 AM

Sandbox posts last active a week ago: A phonetic letter, Implement the binary operators*, Fletcher's 16 bit checksum [code-golf], Unfudge my terminal!, Introduction

Sandbox posts last active a week ago: Game of Life, but on a 4-8-8 tiling [code-golf] [tiling] [grid] [game-of-life] [array-manipulation]

DLosc

Aha! It is a bit shorter!

62 bytes:

\/1&\n
  ++/\
  /\1&
    []
    0&
    []
    --
    1&
    <<

New Posts

0

Q: Tips for golfing in jq

Since jq is the Language Of The Month for September 2021, what general tips do you have for golfing in jq? I'm looking for ideas which can be applied to code-golf problems and which are also at least somewhat specific to jq (e.g. "remove comments" is not an answer). Please post one tip per answer.

tips

0

Q: Language of the Month for September 2021: jq

In accordance with our meta agreement, since one candidate received more votes than the others, we have a new featured language! Throughout August 2021, our Language of the Month will be: jq What's a Language of the Month? See the meta post for nominations. In short, during August, those who wi...

discussion language-of-the-month

Jo King

@DLosc interesting, i wonder if there's a way to reuse the value of thread 2 rather than shell out to the other two each time

emanresu A

Go, uh, do stuff in jq!

@JoKing Also please delete this

Jo King

done

emanresu A

1:05 AM

Thanks

DLosc

@JoKing Maaaaybe... that would be more feasible if we were counting down, though. The value of thread 2 is going to have to hit zero (plus or minus 1) to trigger a different behavior from the conditional.

Jo King

right. currently i'm trying to figure out if there's a way to jump to the input thread only on the first iteration

emanresu A

@NewPosts I almost forgot to replace Bubbler with my username

That would've been interesting

DLosc

Welp:

QMC: Given a number N, count down from N to 0.

I've got a solution in 32 bytes that uses three threads.

Bubbler

@emanresuA And it's September now :P

Jo King

1:14 AM

@DLosc i'm still stuck on count up to input with the main logic on the first thread

i keep getting a scala error nd i don't know what causes it

^^\/
**
1&
--
1&
<<
00
^^
--
1&
++
/\
\n
/\
^^
1&
--
1&
[]
%%
0&
>>

oh wow, that's getting long

DLosc

Well first of all, I don't see how you're getting back to thread 0 after you jump to thread 1 to take input

Jo King

oh right, i had that, but i deleted it to try and debug the error

DLosc

Second, do you mean 0& instead of 00 on the 7th line?

Jo King

ahhh

i keep doing that a lot

DLosc

Yeah, with all the doubled operators it's natural to want to double everything

Jo King

1:18 AM

hmm, match error null now

it prints 1 at least now

Bubbler

Challenge idea: Fill in (by guessing) the second column of Quipu code

Jo King

nvm, got it, but only prints up to input-1, nooo

New Posts

0

Q: Remove oddly nested substrings

Task: Input will consist of some text, with nested [] separating some of it into nested groups: abc[d[fgijk]nopq]rst[u[v[[w]]]xy[[[z]]]] Your task is to remove all brackets, and everything wrapped in an odd number of brackets. For example, a[b]c would remove the [], and the b inside of it. a[[b]...

code-golf string parsing balanced-string

Jo King

ugh, 69 bytes

^^\/
**1&
1&++
--0&
1&??
<<
0&
^^
--
/\
\n
/\
^^
1&
--
1&
[]
%%
0&
??

exedraj

@JoKing nice.

emanresu A

1:24 AM

@Bubbler Thanks :p

DLosc

@JoKing So you're counting down from -1 to -n and negating the value to output it? Am I reading that right?

Jo King

yup

DLosc

Eeeenteresting.

Browncat Programs

This probably wasn't the best time to post a new challenge lol

emanresu A

Oh well

I have a tiny regex answer

Jo King

1:32 AM

huh, i'm realising you can split up threads in order to preserve values at specific knots

DLosc

Yep... and I'm realizing you can split up threads to save bytes if a thread on the right side of the program is getting super long.

Niko

is there an esolang that involves twitch chat?

I don't use twitch, I am just amazed by how chaotic twitch chat is

exedraj

It's only chaotic when there's lots of people

It's much better with smaller streamers

DLosc

Twitch Plays Code Golf?

Niko

holy moly

twitch play code golf.

emanresu A

1:45 AM

@BrowncatPrograms Cheap regex answer

exedraj

@DLosc could be a good idea

DLosc

Probably not tho

Niko

chaos and many spam answers

or you just let ppl choose letters to write on program

exedraj

@DLosc But I meant twitch streaming code golf

DLosc

Ah, okay. Marginally better idea :P

Jo King

1:48 AM

@exedraj i've done that a couple of times

@DLosc 55 bytes, phew

2&\n\/
[]/\0&
2&^^??
==1&
0&++
^^2&
1&[]
++%%
/\0&
  >>

DLosc

I believe you meant:
Twitch Plays Code Golf Kappa LUL LUL LUL

Niko

imagine ppl voting for which char should be used

while the language is jelly

emanresu A

Use a dyadic chain!

No, use a monadic link chained to three nilads!

Jo King

all praise helyxal

emanresu A

No, do both, but combine them into a triad

Niko

1:49 AM

100% sure there will be people trying to exit the program

why don't we just exit it?

emanresu A

“import sys; sys.exit()“œV

Niko

i am sure it's impossible to even do import sys

Bubbler

Commands: move the cursor, insert a char, backspace (optional: clear the entire code)

exedraj

@JoKing wait...you don't need spaces between threads?

emanresu A

œV executes as Python

Niko

1:52 AM

the vote won't let you

Jo King

@exedraj apparently knot, you just need them at the same indentation

Niko

ppl will just import something else

exedraj

haha

@JoKing good pun

well played

emanresu A

knot really.

Jo King

i really wish there were more instructions here

or rather, more combinations. something like 1+ would be a real help

DLosc

1:55 AM

Yeah, it's pretty minimalist. After the LYAL event, I'd be up for brainstorming a derived language with more functionality if anyone's interested.

Especially lists and strings need more love.

QMC: Given a number N, output even if N is even or odd if N is odd.

Jo King

@DLosc 37 bytes... maybe see if anyone else has shorter before i post

DLosc

@JoKing I've got 34

emanresu A

Something like:

'e\/'o
'v2#'d
'e%%'d
'n<<
/\>>

Untested and theoretical

Jo King

it executes the first thread first

emanresu A

Oh

Can I wrap it?

Like does << execute the last thread on #1?

Jo King

2:03 AM

<< and >> have to jump to specific threads, not just the adjacent ones

DLosc

@emanresuA You know you can test these on TIO using the link in @user's Gist, right?

emanresu A

Oh

Ok

Jo King

@DLosc i got the 34, neat

DLosc

Isn't it? I didn't plan the CMC that way, but it's quite convenient how the numbers worked out.

Jo King

actually, i got two 34s, hmm

Aaron Miller

2:06 AM

I’ve got the 37 bytes, I’ll try and find the 34

Oh, and I’m here, btw. Hello

Jo King

heyo!

one has no spaces, the other has quite a bit (6)

DLosc

The six-space one was what I had, but I've just gotten to what I suspect is your 37 and I think I see my way to the other 34...

Aaron Miller

Nice, I got the 34 with the spaces

I didn’t actually realize what the (6) meant until I got it, so I missed that hint completely :P

Jo King

i felt "quite a bit" was overstating it a little and overcorrected

DLosc

Yep, got the no-space 34. That's actually really neat--multiple approaches with the same bytecount, each elegant in its own way.

Aaron Miller

2:11 AM

Ooh, I found a 33 byte

:o

odd number??

3 newlines

aha! wow that's cool

Ooh, hmm... I tried going the opposite direction, I think, and ended up with 40 bytes

Dude coinheringaahing

2:18 AM

@NewPosts Haha, got to use the weird Jelly dyadic-nilad chaining trick with an empty input :D

Unfortunately, it's the same length as not using it, but still :P

emanresu A

@Dudecoinheringaahing Haha Jelly bad

1 byte but whatever

Dude coinheringaahing

Imagine relying on "non-bracket characters will be letters" instead of your answer working with any characters :P

Also, why does Vyxal have a single byte constant for an asterisk character???

emanresu A

Because it does

I could use 0< instead

Browncat Programs

Probably to cheat on the 10 by 10 grid of asterisks challenge

emanresu A

True, we have three bytes on that

(With flags but w/e)

Browncat Programs

2:21 AM

Wait, does Vyxal not have an "is alpha" operator?

Dude coinheringaahing

@BrowncatPrograms Vyxal? Having weird builtins to cheat on commonly answered CGCC challenges? No!!!

emanresu A

@BrowncatPrograms Thanks

DLosc

@AaronMiller That's really clever! Took me a while of fiddling with the extra thread to figure out how to get 33.

emanresu A

It has a remove_non_alpha builtin

Which is effectively the same

exedraj

@Dudecoinheringaahing because I added it for ascii art challenges

Aaron Miller

2:22 AM

^^ ninja'd

exedraj

because one thing I've noticed is that having a non-whitespace character constant is actually helpful sometimes

@BrowncatPrograms so no, it's not for cheating

Aaron Miller

Can confirm, I've used the asterisk builtin on several occasions

exedraj

@BrowncatPrograms for once, your default assumption is wrong

Dude coinheringaahing

I'm disappointed that porting Jonah's J answer is shorter than my original answer :(

emanresu A

@AaronMiller Ye, same

Dude coinheringaahing

2:24 AM

@exedraj Yeah, but why was it added? That's the main argument is that you add features to Vyxal to "cheat" at challenges, even if those builtins later turn out to be helpful

exedraj

@Dudecoinheringaahing because I was doing JHT exercises and realised a non-whitespace character would be useful

Dude coinheringaahing

Not that I care tbh, I only really care (when it comes to golf) about my own answers :P

emanresu A

How long is porting jonah?

exedraj

like most ascii art challenges will let you choose your own characters, and asterisks are the most commonly used character

Dude coinheringaahing

@exedraj That is true, Jelly definitely needs a single byte char constant

@emanresuA 12 bytes

My original one was 13 bytes

exedraj

2:26 AM

@Dudecoinheringaahing that's exactly what I mean

emanresu A

Oh

What's the other one then?

DLosc

I mean... I don't see an asterisk builtin as cheating, even if it was added specifically for the grid of asterisks challenge. It's nowhere near as egregious as a one-byte builtin for Fizz/Buzz. And even that isn't cheating, just overspecializing. A codepage byte dedicated to one specific string is a byte that can't be used for something else.

Now, flags, on the other hand...

exedraj

@DLosc it wasn't specifically for the grid challenge though

emanresu A

Vyxal 098y9Ô˜‚„ªµwujnf9mˆ∑ƒw, 0 bytes

DLosc

> even if

Browncat Programs

2:27 AM

@DLosc Yeah, "cheating" is probably too strong of a word for what I was talking about

Dude coinheringaahing

@emanresuA A more accurate port of Jonah's answer

emanresu A

Oh

Browncat Programs

@BrowncatPrograms I do have a mild case of "vyxal bad" syndrome :p

Dude coinheringaahing

The ø and the blank second argument are the same as J's (...)

exedraj

@BrowncatPrograms clearly

Dude coinheringaahing

2:28 AM

@BrowncatPrograms Understandable, after all, Vyxal bad :P

exedraj

Advertising a single language doesn't really seem like a good idea to me. Vyxal's the only one with an advertisement, so it might give some people the impression that it's "the official CGCC language" or something. — Browncat Programs Jul 27 at 14:08

despite the fact there were two other language specific ads

Browncat Programs

There weren't, were there?

I looked around quite a lot

exedraj

Jelly and APL

Browncat Programs

Those were ads related to a language, but not for the language, right?

Aaron Miller

APL Orchard and JHT, specifically

DLosc

2:29 AM

Not ads for the languages per se, but for stuff connected to them

Dude coinheringaahing

They're ads for rooms for learning the lang,s, not the langs themselves

They're close, but not the same as an ad for the lang itself

exedraj

> improve your jelly skills

Browncat Programs

Yeah, that's an ad for JHT, not Jelly

exedraj

9 secs ago, by exedraj

> improve your jelly skills

DLosc

@Dudecoinheringaahing ... Which is kind of like saying "That's not an ad for hamburgers, it's an ad for a restaurant that sells hamburgers"

exedraj

2:30 AM

^

emanresu A

@Dudecoinheringaahing ^

Browncat Programs

There's a big difference between "use my language" and "go to this place for resources and discussion about a language"

Dude coinheringaahing

Mainly because JHT is a room for people who see Jelly answers, have no idea how they work and want to learn (and I imagine the Orchard is the same). The Vyxal ad is an ad promoting the usage of the language

@DLosc I think it's more like "This isn't an ad for a course where you learn to cook hamburgers, it's an ad for McDonald's"

emanresu A

@Dudecoinheringaahing You can also find out what this chunk of random Vyxal characters is doing :p

exedraj

@BrowncatPrograms The vyxal repo is a place for resources and discussion about the language

Aaron Miller

2:31 AM

Either way, it's too late to change it anyway, right?

exedraj

discussions and resources

Browncat Programs

Personally, I sort of think things like LotM and using the language a lot should be the primary ways of advertising your language (and actually advertising it feels a bit corporate), but I could see that being an opinion people disagree with

emanresu A

@BrowncatPrograms Done both.

Browncat Programs

I'm aware :p

Dude coinheringaahing

That said, I dont object to having a Vyxal ad because it "feels like saying Vyxal is the official CGCC lang", I object to it because we don't advertise languages that way

Browncat Programs

2:32 AM

^

emanresu A

770 answers, not counting questions and tips

Browncat Programs

My wording was pretty poor in that comment

Aaron Miller

@BrowncatPrograms I've definitely never done the second one. /s

emanresu A

@Dudecoinheringaahing Why not?

Browncat Programs

I think it's kind of unfair

emanresu A

2:33 AM

Fine, we'll tag it with overhanded - happy now?

Aaron Miller

@BrowncatPrograms I think it's kind of underhanded

FTFY

dangit emanresu!

emanresu A

Ninja attack

DLosc

@emanresuA Hm, not bad (though I'm sure there are a few false positives in there)

Browncat Programs

Also I object to Vyxal being called 'elegant" or "readable" but that's not really a reason to dislike the ad necessarily :p

exedraj

@BrowncatPrograms what you don't know is that I asked people if we should have an ad in the vyxal chatroom

the consensus was yes

Browncat Programs

2:35 AM

Oh good, so glad you asked people...in a room where everyone there uses and likes Vyxal :p

Your response probably would've been much more mixed if you'd asked here

As evidenced by this conversation

exedraj

Hyper probably still would have said yes

Relevant xkcd

@exedraj And?

Did I get anyone?

@emanresuA Uh-huh, sure

exedraj

2:36 AM

so a moderator's opinion was good enough for me

Browncat Programs

@emanresuA Thanks to my anti-rickroll script, no :p

exedraj

@emanresuA unfortuantely yes

Aaron Miller

@emanresuA Get anyone? I thought you were just trying to lighten the mood with a fantastic song :P

DLosc

@emanresuA Thanks to my seeing the substring youtube.com in the link instead of xkcd.com, no :p

emanresu A

I have so many pings right now

DLosc

2:37 AM

You've pingrolled yourself

Jo King

i hover over xkcd links to see if i can figure out which one it is by the number

5

Aaron Miller

@emanresuA Why? :p

DLosc

@JoKing I'm sure there's a relevant XKCD for that...

"My Hobby: ..."

Aaron Miller

@exedraj Did we ever get a pic of the pink plate?

emanresu A

@JoKing What's this one then?

Dude coinheringaahing

2:41 AM

@exedraj All respect to hyper (and the other mods), but, unless the topic is specifically relevant to a mod-only thing, a mod's opinion is, to me, the same as any other user's opinion

exedraj

@AaronMiller not yet

Jo King

@emanresuA i'm guessing a redirect to a rick roll? sus link

emanresu A

@JoKing :(

Did you see the .surge.sh then?

Aaron Miller

@emanresuA For me it just says "page not found"

emanresu A

Oops

I did /505 instead of /?505