ELL's Cabin

tchrist

12:10 AM

@snailboat Probably so.

tchrist

12:36 AM

Wow, you don't dupe-close here, either.

5

A: Finished seeing the contents? Now, wait a sec.! Did you vote?

Indeed ELL does seem to have a dearth of votes. Here are the average number of votes per post as of a few days ago, excluding deleted posts, for the language sites on Stack Exchange (plus the top, bottom and median sites in terms of average votes per post): 2014-05-18 2015-09-...

jimsug

2:18 AM

@inɒzɘmɒЯ.A.M you may be interested in this: data.stackexchange.com/ell/query/363154/…

Damkerng T.

4:23 AM

@tchrist I don't think so. Though I use it myself all along. I only downvote in an extreme cases, such as spam, vandalism, plagiarism, or some other behaviors such as insisting on an incorrect and/or misleading answer.

facepalm -- "in an extreme cases"

Damkerng T.

5:20 AM

I think we should downvote more often (but probably not too much), because there are more users now. So, more eyes and ears and hands.

I held back, like, a lot, previously, because there were so few of us.

Sometimes my not-so-good answers were upvoted easily (because there were so few of us, and many of learners who most of the time couldn't tell whether an answer is correct or not).

(I wasn't trying to say that I always know whether an answer is correct or not, but I don't vote when I can't tell.)

Freddy

6:15 AM

hola

Damkerng T.

~~Halo!~~ Hallo! ;-)

Anonymous

@DamkerngT. I think I sometimes get more upvotes than I deserve.

Damkerng T.

@snailboat I understand the HNQ effect. (Got it a couple of times myself on Friday. :-)

Anonymous

@DamkerngT. It sometimes happens even on non-HNQ. Like, I've posted an answer after misreading the question and gotten two upvotes, then realized I needed to delete it because it didn't even answer the question!

Anonymous

I feel kind of bad sometimes.

jimsug

7:07 AM

0

Q: How to learn humor in English

It sometimes occurs to me that being unable to understand English jokes is embarrassing and not socially correct. How could I learn humor? Could someone recommend some resources please?

humor

Is this worth answering? I mean, it seems like something that can be answered, and does have an answer, but is it on-topic?

Damkerng T.

@jimsug I doubt that too, but it could be a good subjective question.

jimsug

There are things that good jokes do.

The main thing is subvert expectations.

You've heard the funniest joke?

Damkerng T.

Nope. :P

jimsug

> Two hunters are out in the woods when one of them collapses. He doesn't seem to be breathing and his eyes are glazed. The other guy whips out his phone and calls the emergency services. He gasps, "My friend is dead! What can I do?" The operator says "Calm down. I can help. First, let's make sure he's dead."

> There is a silence, then a gun shot is heard. Back on the phone, the guy says "OK, now what?"

Damkerng T.

Hahaha!

jimsug

7:10 AM

World's funniest joke

The "world's funniest joke" is a term used by Richard Wiseman of the University of Hertfordshire in 2002 to summarize one of the results of his research. For his experiment, named LaughLab, he created a website where people could rate and submit jokes. Purposes of the research included discovering the joke that had the widest appeal and understanding among different cultures, demographics and countries. The History Channel eventually hosted a special on the subject. == The jokes == The winning joke, which was later found to be based on a 1951 Goon Show sketch by Spike Milligan, was submitted by...

Then there are pun-based jokes.

> "What kind of murderer has moral fiber?" – "A cereal killer."

Damkerng T.

Hehe!

jimsug

But I would classify that as a sub-class of the first category.

Damkerng T.

I think, for most of us, it comes naturally.

> It sometimes occurs to me that being unable to understand English jokes is embarrassing and not socially correct.
How could I learn humor?

If I was asked that in person, I think my answer might be, "How did you learn English, then?"

I mean, there must be something missing.

jimsug

Humour isn't English-specific though.

I would imagine that these same principles are likely to be the principles underlying humour in other cultures, as well.

Damkerng T.

That, too! Though some jokes require a level of English skills.

jimsug

7:14 AM

Yeah, but that'd be the case with any language.

Damkerng T.

Indeed.

jimsug

If you didn't know what a word that was crucial to a joke meant, then you just wouldn't get the joke.

And then, if you were with a group who did get it, you could laugh along as if you did...

Damkerng T.

I do that too, sometimes, in any languages. :-)

jimsug

spanishpronto.com/spanishpronto/jokes.html

Damkerng T.

> The police have 5,000 pictures of him.

That implies something cultural!

jimsug

7:17 AM

Yeah, but more because it's a bus of Japanese tourists, rather than the joke being Spanish.

Or perhaps there is a cultural stereotype of tourists. Or Japanese tourists.

Damkerng T.

Exactly.

Oh, I think I don't get this one:

> Hay tres clases de personas:
There are three kinds of people:
las que saben contar y las que no.
those who know how to count, and those who don't.

jimsug

Oh, I've heard that joke in English.

It's like the other one:

> There are 10 kinds of people in the world, those who know binary and those who don't.

Damkerng T.

Haha!

jimsug

@DamkerngT. So this is a similar joke, but based on the idea that the person telling the joke doesn't know how to count.

Damkerng T.

A-ha!

Got it! Thanks!

jimsug

7:20 AM

Ah, see, here's one that would be language-specific:

> Se encuentran dos amigos.
Two friends run into each other.
- Oye, macho, ¡tengo un pato que habla!
"Hey [listen], man, I have a duck that talks!"
- Amos, hombre, no digas tonterías.
"Come on, man, don't say stupid things."
- Que sí, ya verás. Ven a mi casa y lo ves.
"But it's true, you'll see. Come to my house and you'll see it."
Llegan a la casa, abren la puerta y aparece un pato.
They arrive at the house, open the door, and a duck appears.
- A ver. Pato, tráeme una corbata.
"Watch. Duck, bring me a tie."

Damkerng T.

Oh!

jimsug

1. The onomatopoeia for sounds that animals make vary between languages, and
2. Cuál is a pun that only Spanish-speakers will understand.

Damkerng T.

So, Cuaaa is pronounced similarly to Cuál.

jimsug

I think cuál must have a dark /l/.

A rhotic /l/

Damkerng T.

nods

jimsug

7:24 AM

So at least, there's cultural barriers to understanding jokes, in the form of shared knowledge or understandings of things, and that includes puns, where the shared knowledge/understanding is the vocabulary.

Damkerng T.

I think that's exactly right!

Oh, jokes can be bilingual!

0

A: How to learn humor in English

It's probably a misconception to assume that there is English humour. In fact, humour is something that always needs a social context, a social group. It plays with a common understanding of social norms and accepted behaviour. To understand humour, you need not only to "speak the language", you ...

That's an interesting answer.

It makes me think, can we learn a language without learning the culture?

jimsug

7:45 AM

No, language is very much part of the culture of the people who have it.

You might not learn all of it.

Damkerng T.

Agreed.

jimsug

There's a bit of a spike on 6 September ...

Damkerng T.

The election day, I think?

jimsug

I think elections closed 8 September.

CopperKettle

8:45 AM

@snailboat Sorry, Snails!

"Our mutable tongue is like the sea,
Curled wave and shattering thunder-fit;
Dangle in strings of sand shall be
Who smooths the ripples out of it."

inɒzɘmɒЯ.A.M

New profile pic. ᕙ(⇀‸↼‶)ᕗ

Damkerng T.

@inɒzɘmɒЯ.A.M Nice!

I like this one better. It looks clean, and it's easy to make out what it is.

inɒzɘmɒЯ.A.M

Yep.

Hmm.

Yep.

Let's see.

The big version is nice too.

Damkerng T.

Yup!

inɒzɘmɒЯ.A.M

BTW @Dam it's this good ol' cyclohexane.

Damkerng T.

8:55 AM

Thanks for the clarification!

inɒzɘmɒЯ.A.M

The thick line is because this is a simple 3D model.

Damkerng T.

How was the edit session last night after I went to bed?

@inɒzɘmɒЯ.A.M Kinda logical.

inɒzɘmɒЯ.A.M

@DamkerngT. There was only @Snail, and everyone kept doing what they were doing.

But it was fun.

Damkerng T.

Ahh

Good!

jimsug

We got through about 300 titles last night, altogether

Quite possibly a bit more.

inɒzɘmɒЯ.A.M

8:58 AM

ᕙ(⇀‸↼‶)ᕗ

Well the calculations worked out.

The only thing that annoyed me was that there were no people from ELL coming to help.

jimsug

Well, you can't make people do something they don't want to do.

Especially when they're volunteers.

inɒzɘmɒЯ.A.M

Well it disappointed me that the only volunteers were you guys.

Damkerng T.

It was just the first day.

inɒzɘmɒЯ.A.M

@jimsug I made one myself.

Lemme find it . . .

jimsug

Eh, we did what we could.

Damkerng T.

9:02 AM

I think I have an idea, if everyone is okay with saving an HTML file from Pastebin to their computer.

inɒzɘmɒЯ.A.M

@Jim data.stackexchange.com/ell/query/363133/…

@DamkerngT. Everyone is okay, so am I.

Damkerng T.

Hehe! So you are everyone? :-)

inɒzɘmɒЯ.A.M

I'm something more than that. I'm MA. ᕙ(⇀‸↼‶)ᕗ

jimsug

@inɒzɘmɒЯ.A.M Ah yes, my one is concerned with voting trends for users by reputation

inɒzɘmɒЯ.A.M

My one? O.o

jimsug

9:06 AM

No, mine...

Damkerng T.

@jimsug We definitely have had that.

jimsug

Hmm.

inɒzɘmɒЯ.A.M

@jimsug Score makes it look ugly.

jimsug

shrug you can take it out.

But the majority of users don't downvote even once a day, on average.

Probably including me.

Damkerng T.

nods

I daresay that we have more than a handful of "weed" answers. A lot of them have received many upvotes, even.

But I think (or hope) the situation will improve because we have more and more users.

jimsug

9:10 AM

That's a logarithmic scale, btw

The vast, vast majority of posts' scores = 1

Damkerng T.

How should I read it?

Ahh

inɒzɘmɒЯ.A.M

Bah, graphs don't work this way.

jimsug

Well, if I didn't log() it, the number of 0 + 1 votes made it impossible to read :/

inɒzɘmɒЯ.A.M

There are too many varying factors.

Anyway, @Dam we can make a comparison with @Jim's or my query.

jimsug

Damkerng T.

9:13 AM

Compare how?

jimsug

Oh, this is posts by score.

And the second one is without the log(), and... yeah.

Damkerng T.

The +1 in a +1 answer is likely to be a pity vote.

That's my speculation. Either a pity vote by the OP, or else it could be a vote from me in an overlooked answer.

inɒzɘmɒЯ.A.M

data.stackexchange.com/ell/query/363133/… vs. data.stackexchange.com/chemistry/query/363133/… Wow.

jimsug

Just less voting, overall

inɒzɘmɒЯ.A.M

ELL votes way less.

jimsug

9:18 AM

law has a voting problem too data.stackexchange.com/law/query/363133/…

but proportionally we seem to downvote more often

inɒzɘmɒЯ.A.M

data.stackexchange.com/skeptics/query/363133/…

Damkerng T.

The problem is votes usually get nothing in return. (Unless, of course, when someone uses it strategically, like I like your question +1! or This is a good question +1!)

inɒzɘmɒЯ.A.M

4

Q: Reduced relative clause that has "NOT"

There are many examples that demonstrate how to reduce relative clause, but I can't find any example that reduces relative clause having "NOT" in it, like: I can't find my notebook that contains all my addresses. I can't find my notebook containing all my addresses. So, if the original...

grammar

jimsug

Hmm

inɒzɘmɒЯ.A.M

I'm gonna answer that.

Damkerng T.

9:21 AM

Go for it!

jimsug

data.stackexchange.com/chemistry/query/363255/… data.stackexchange.com/skeptics/query/363255/… data.stackexchange.com/ell/query/363255/… data.stackexchange.com/law/query/363255/…

With ratios = the lower it is, the more downvotes you have, relative to upvotes.

Damkerng T.

data.stackexchange.com/english/query/363255/…

jimsug

English has a similar ratio to Skeptics

Damkerng T.

I think the results make sense.

nods -- English and Skeptics are mature. Chem and ELL are adolescent.

Stack Exchange

0

Q: How to learn humor in English

It sometimes occurs to me that being unable to understand English jokes is embarrassing and not socially correct. How could I learn humor? Could someone recommend some resources please?

discussion

Freddy

2:51 PM

Hola

Fantasier

What's this "title cleanup?"

Ah I see

Matt E. Эллен

3:22 PM

I don't see

inɒzɘmɒЯ.A.M

I now see.

@MattE.Эллен Hey!

@MattE.Эллен title cleanup is a little gathering we have to clear the titles.

. . . of the annoying buzzwords.

Matt E. Эллен

3:44 PM

ah, ok. I hadn't seen the notification before :D

inɒzɘmɒЯ.A.M

Title clean-up (Phase 4: Time for Tit…

Welcome! This is a room intended for conversations solely for ...

We hang here.

@MattE.Эллен It was about time someone dusts up these crappy titles.

ASR

4:24 PM

Hi

Hi

how are you?

Great!

4:50 PM

I don't get it.

Damkerng T.

6:26 PM

1

A: Is it correct to say, "what would he likes to eat"?

No, it’s grammatically incorrect. When using a modal, always the verb takes the bare infinitive form.

See, even this one has an upvote.

> OP: Is it correct to say "What would he likes to eat?"

> Answer: No, it’s grammatically incorrect. When using a modal, always the verb takes the bare infinitive form.

Oh, wait. It's okay. I think I stay up too late tonight, and probably should stop editing titles.

But I've been through only half a page.

Seesawing between leaving the answer like that and upvoting it for a while...

(Because it's correct, but it could say something more)

I think it deserves an upvote, because it gets the main point right.

inɒzɘmɒЯ.A.M

@DamkerngT. Very short answers get digested more easily and thus get more upvotes.

Anonymous

11:24 PM

We've got to have at least half a dozen answers explaining that only the first verb in a group can be finite, and that would is part of the group but inverted:

Anonymous

> 1. He [likes] to eat something.

Anonymous

> 2. He [would like] to eat something.

Anonymous

> 3. [Would] he [like] to eat something?

Anonymous

Finite verb in bold. I cheated and turned it into a polar question.

Anonymous

The inversion means the group isn't contiguous (he pops up in the middle).

Anonymous

11:25 PM

But it's still one group.

Anonymous

It doesn't matter that would is a modal auxiliary. If we inserted the non-modal dummy auxiliary do to support inversion:

Anonymous

> 2'. He [does like] to eat things.

Anonymous

> 3'. [Does] he [like] to eat things?

Anonymous

And we find the same thing. The group is no longer contiguous, but it's still a verb group, and the first verb is the only one that can be finite.

Anonymous

But I don't really see anything wrong about the answer. I edited it to move the position of always, but it seems basically correct.

Anonymous

11:28 PM

It could be made slightly more precise.

Anonymous

But it's short, and short answers can be useful for people :-)

Anonymous

> 2''. He [would like] to eat what?

Anonymous

> 3''. What [would] he [like] to eat ＿＿?

Anonymous

Same thing, with the added complication of fronting the wh-phrase.

Anonymous

Of course, so far, my explanation doesn't tell you which non-finite form should be used.

Anonymous

11:41 PM

The answer linked above skipped all this complicated, long-winded stuff, and went straight to the heart of the matter :-) Probably more useful to the learner.

Title clean-up (Phase 4: Time for Tit…

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