The Whiteboard

12:58 AM

Why is it so quiet here... It usually isn't that bad

user55340

@Shahar Nice days. Summer vacation. People outside with laptops rather than dual monitoring. People without jobs occasionally doing outdoor work (painting the fence and the like).

Yannis Rizos

10:19 AM

@gnat Following the IP trail, I found a couple more scrum study spam accounts. Good catch, thanks.

@Shahar I blame the World Cup. Or, at least, that's my excuse for not being around much.

maple_shaft

12:52 PM

@MichaelT You want to have a chat sometime?

Let me know I will make a private room

user55340

1:24 PM

@maple_shaft ...

user55340

@YannisRizos I recall the build team at Netapp getting their schedules throughly out of sync with the rest of the company during the world cup one year... Not sure if its 'better' to have it during the work day (watching at work?) or at 2am (no sleep?).

enderland

3:00 PM

Ugh, badge policies are the worst when your company gives you junk badge retractors (or whatever they are officially called)

JohnP

4:21 PM

@enderland - The official name is ninja garroting device.

Ampt

4:34 PM

@jimmyhoffa learning a ton during the day, forgetting even more at night

The stories about this place were true

enderland

How do I convince my manager the report he wants me to replicate is completely and utterly pointless and provides no value to the end customer who receives it

Shahar

4:45 PM

"Why do you need it?"

enderland

The report as wanted saves face and makes the department look better than it is, because it doesn't display the meaningful information others need

user55340

@enderland Well, there's the business reason...

Jimmy Hoffa

5:26 PM

@Ampt which ones? Do tell :) I'm guessing you refer to the stories about it being a meatgrinder (which is harmful if left too long, but good for a kickstart)

user55340

5:37 PM

Btw, Endless Space is on sale on Steam - its a reasonable 4x game (for those who enjoyed Masters of Orion)

Ampt

6:11 PM

Haha not even close

The training center is phenomenal

And the training is awesome

enderland

@Ampt in a training center?

What kind of training are you doing.... ;)

Ampt

Somebody please delete this line of comments. On mobile so I can't :)

@enderland I would call it.... Intellectual and social training.

Can room owners delete comments??

enderland

No

Ampt

Damn it... Maybe @RobertHarvey or @AshleyNunn could help a friend out :)

user15026

@Ampt ?

enderland

6:20 PM

@Ampt needs mod intervention as his feeble user powers are not sufficient

Ampt

Mobile can't delete comments... :(

user15026

Which ones do you want?

Ampt

And I can't log on with my work laptop for whatever stupid reason

Re: open bars and Re: university

Just above. Thank you so much!

user15026

Did I get the right ones?

Ampt

Yep :)

This is why the mods are awesome!!?

!!!***

user15026

6:23 PM

grins It's good to be loved

enderland

"mods are awesome because they cover up my drinking habits" ??

2

Ampt

I won't say no....

;)

Robert Harvey

6:39 PM

Moral of the story: use a real computer.

Thomas Owens

:\ My application works when I run it inside Eclipse (with or without the debugger). I build it with Ant and run it anywhere, and it doesn't. WTF.

And it feels like I've had this problem before.

enderland

9 mins ago, by Robert Harvey

Moral of the story: use a real computer.

user55340

Eclipse does funny things with its environment.

Thomas Owens

It has to do with networking. Everything else in the application works.

My UDP socket doesn't receive incoming packets.

user55340

While it doesn't solve the ant problem... have you tried an 'export as runnable application' from Eclipse somewhere?

user55340

6:53 PM

That sounds like a security manager thing.

Thomas Owens

I'm running on two nodes on the corporate network, so my firewall isn't an issue. I have admin rights, so I should be able to do everything...

user55340

The default Java security manager (and yes, eclipse does its own thing) might not have the permissions.

Thomas Owens

To open a socket and listen? WTF?

user55340

Java SecurityManager

user55340

Yep.

user55340

6:54 PM

And associated tutorial on it ( docs.oracle.com/javase/tutorial/essential/environment/… - though thats not really a tutorial, its more a user's guide)

Thomas Owens

Shouldn't I be getting IO Exceptions when I bind the socket?

durron597

hey all

user55340

Might get errors elsewhere..

user55340

download.java.net/jdk7/archive/b123/docs/api/java/net/…

durron597

So I just saw this, which I'm sure you've all discussed at length

user55340

6:56 PM

> Constructs a datagram socket and binds it to any available port on the local host machine. The socket will be bound to the wildcard address, an IP address chosen by the kernel.
If there is a security manager, its checkListen method is first called with 0 as its argument to ensure the operation is allowed. This could result in a SecurityException.

durron597

95

Q: Is there a benefit of compiling your code as you go along?

I recently had a job interview in which they gave me an hour to write some real code. It wasn't a huge amount, probably less than 100 lines. After about 45 minutes, I compiled, ran it, and got it to work. I may have spent 5-10 minutes working out compile errors and a couple minor bugs, but ove...

programming-practices

Thomas Owens

I'm not getting any SecurityExceptions that I'm aware of. Unless something is eating them...

durron597

I haven't programmed in an IDE that didn't have continuous compilation (except for random bash scripts) in a very long time

to me the entire question just seems... out of date?

user55340

@durron597 not quite as common in the C world as the Java world.

durron597

True. But the question was written language agnostically

and most of the discussion seems to have missed that bit of it

user55340

6:58 PM

And then the javascripters and rubiests tend to be "we're hip - we don't use an IDE, we just use vi"

durron597

i wonder if vim or emacs have continuous compilation plugins?

if i had to write a java program in notepad++ or vim i would probably not compile after every line of code but i'm happy that the IDE automates it for me

user55340

Back in the pre-ide days... well, ok... I had a C IDE, but no Java one... when writing Java it was "stub it out" and then do lots of 'make'

user55340

I didn't quite get my vi settings customized to the point where it would read the errors in to the editor... I used used another window or esc :!make as needed

Thomas Owens

Interesting...it depends on if I start it using a shell script or the executable JAR.

I'm not kidding. I double click on the Executable JAR? Everything works. I run a shell script in the console (since I also print logging to std out, it's something I usually do), nothing. I wonder if java -jar on the command line works...

durron597

this is windows?

Thomas Owens

7:03 PM

Yeah.

durron597

what are your UAC settings?

Thomas Owens

java -jar doesn't wokr either.

durron597

is your cmd.exe running as administrator?

Thomas Owens

Yeah. Let me check that.

durron597

(as an aside, ping doesn't work either unless cmd.exe is running as administrator)

Thomas Owens

7:04 PM

Yeah. cmd is running as Administrator.

durron597

(even with UAC turned off)

Thomas Owens

If I type "java -jar JarName.jar" in CMD or if I run the .bat script, nothing works. If I double click the executable JAR.

durron597

copy the jar to another file, change the extension .zip, and then get the manifest.mf file

Thomas Owens

Running from Eclipse also works.

Or I open 7-zip and don't need to do all of that. :P

durron597

put the manifest.mf file in pastebin.com or somesuch

Thomas Owens

7:06 PM

I can't do that.

durron597

hmm

i just wanted to look at the main class method and the classpath

you doing bigjar or jar dependencies?

Thomas Owens

JAR dependencies.

I did find a problem with the JAR manifest's classpath, but I don't know how it would be an issue.

I forgot the $ in ${project-name}.jar when adding the current JAR to the classpath.

So the first element in the classpath was just {project-name}.jar instead of the actual JAR name. I fixed that.

Nope. That wasn't the problem. Seriously, this is a really strange bug.

Oh. I just tested. The problem also exists on Unix if I launch with the shell script. No idea if it works on Unix if I double click the JAR.

Using java -jar JarName.jar should use the JAR's manifest file's information, yes?

Thomas Owens

7:39 PM

Is there a good way to figure out what JVM is used when I double click on a JAR?

That's really what I'm down to. Unless I'm missing something.

durron597

you can rebuild the jar right?

Thomas Owens

Yeah. I can rebuild it whenever.

It's my JAR.

durron597

i might throw a little code in the beginning of the main method

System.getProperties().list(System.out);

System.out.println(Class.forName("some.class.that.is.in.a.Dependency"));

Thomas Owens

So when I run from the command line, I'm running with Java 1.6.

And Java 1.6 is the one on my PATH environment variable, too.

Apparently, Eclipse is using Java 1.7, as is double clicking. The scripts are running 1.6.

And even fixing that doesn't solve my problem it doesn't appear.

Yeah. The problem is not JREs. It's specifically how I launch the application. I don't get this at all.

And great. I got it to break in Eclipse now.

durron597

8:02 PM

what did the class.forname thing do

Thomas Owens

I didn't try that. I don't see what value that is, since all my dependencies are fine.

Although, there is on dependency.

I just tried it with one dependency and it just printed out the class name.

I just want to make sure it's the same in all combinations.

Yeah. It's the same.

When I open the manifest file, is it normal to have apparently random linebreaks in the classpath? Not that it matters, since it's finding functions and classes in those dependencies just fine.

So now it's broken in Eclipse, broken with the .bat file, and broken on Unix from the command line, but works when double clicking on Windows

durron597

remind me what exactly "broken" means?

Thomas Owens

I'm sending UDP packets over the network to the application. It's never receiving them.

I do need to leave the office now for stuff, but this is annoying. I don't see how double clicking versus "java -jar MyJar.jar" should result in different behavior, ever.

No exceptions are thrown when creating the socket, no error messages are generated. I'm listening on the port. However, when I start the transmitter, they just never get there unless I start the java app by double clicking on the JAR. Weird.

gnat

9:24 PM

stumbled upon a user who manages to mostly post amazingly low quality answers. Not all of them are unfortunately flaggable, so I am probably going to lose a bit of repz in next few days on plain old downvotes

JohnP

9:37 PM

@GlenH7 @GlenH7 - I already have that case. Currently up to 11 different ones, 4 rank and 7 ceremonial/commemorative.

JohnP

9:49 PM

@gnat - I dv/flagged some of her answers. You're right, very low quality.

Shahar

144p?

gnat

@JohnP thanks! just be careful about not triggering voting reversal script with too many downvotes (that's why I mentioned few days - stuff needs spreading over time)

Shahar

Well, they're answers

gnat

7

A: How did this user amass more than 2k worth of reputation?

A word of caution, based on an advice given in comments in another question: ...just don't go on a down voting spree..., last time he made it into Meta three people started downvoting everything and they were caught by the serial voting script. It ain't that easy... ...not that I sug...

Shahar

Maybe not the best but it's better than trolls

Robert Harvey

9:58 PM

People are now beginning to complain about the serial voting reversal script on Meta.SO. "Well, why shouldn't I downvote all of a user's posts if they're all crap?"

Shahar

gnat, why do you get so many downvotes

gnat

@Shahar being answers doesn't make things totally immune from flagging, as an example, link-only answers (since recently) and plagiarism are flaggable. But you're right, some of these will leave scars of -1s in my rep because, well, there's nothing to flag

75

Q: Can there be legitimate serial downvoting?

If you stumble across a user whose answers and questions are just terrible, is it okay to downvote and vote to close as needed, or is that crossing the line of serial downvoting? It's nothing personal -- you don't even know this person -- but everything they post is just god-awful and unhelpful.

discussion down-votes voting serial-voting

@Shahar at almost 16K rep I wouldn't say I get many downvotes at all

Shahar

No I mean the picture you showed on that meta post

is that your account?

Oh, never mind

gnat

@Shahar nope, not mine: programmers.stackexchange.com/users/26782/…

Shahar

When you're suspended, your reputation goes down to 1? Is it permanent?

gnat

10:05 PM

@Shahar nope, rep is restored when suspension ends

as an example, a year later this guy is going to get back to 100K or something: stackoverflow.com/users/285587/your-common-sense

Shahar

that's pretty cruel

He's got 5.2k answers. He's obviously a great contributor, and he's suspended until June next year

Robert Harvey

Yeah, see, you clearly don't know the whole story.

2

Shahar

I don't

but 100k reputation means that the guy is pretty important to the site

Robert Harvey

Your Common Sense has the dubious distinction of having more moderator flags cast on his account than any other user on Stack Overflow, ever.

JohnP

10:22 PM

@gnat - I only downvoted 2, edited a couple for at least some clarity and flagged a few others.

Shahar

I literally don't see any blood

on Your Common Sense's reputation record

Except bounties, of course

user41796

@Shahar Those SO mods are pretty good at cleaning stuff up...

user20683

@Shahar your common sense is not his common sense. His sense is incendiary.

Shahar

@GlenH7 Still, he has 100k rep

Why would someone dedicate so much time and effort to earn 100k rep

and then destroy it for fun

His account was definitely hacked or something

user41796

@Shahar I wouldn't assume that. My understanding is there's a pretty clear historical trail that mods can see / review.

user41796

10:29 PM

All it really means is that the user finally over-stepped the bounds of decorum and needing a cooling off period.

user41796

The reps and whatnot will return when the cooling off period is done.

user41796

Perhaps they assumed they were too important and could become even more inflammatory. Regardless, lengthy suspensions aren't tossed around at whimsy.

JohnP

@Shahar - If you look at his activity and read his comments, he's got a long track record of being borderline abusive in comments.

Such as: This rotten practice of upvoting answer out of charity, not quality brings nothing but a shame for the both author and upvoter.

Shahar

lol

gnat

@GlenH7 I think finally is not the right word here, it's likely not the first time happening to him. Searching MSE for "Shrapnel" reveals some traces of the past...

17

Q: What does one do with 'angry' users?

If a user is making a valid point but in a rather angry way, what can I do? I don't want to post something like 'please check the FAQ for how to provide a constructive answer' as that's just going to make it worse. Case in point was Col. Shrapnel in this question. (My answer he took particular i...

discussion users behavior

JohnP

10:35 PM

And: Read my lips: there is no such case and no limitations, neither in mysql_real_escape_string not in PDO. It exists only in your imagination.

Shahar

Dang Apple and oracle stocks are upsetting me

JohnP

Those are some of the tamer ones, but he puts out a few tens of those a day.

Shahar

@JohnP Well it's a little mean but it's not too bad

JohnP

@Shahar - Yes, but it's a few dozen PER DAY, every day. Just very belittling, and over enough time, anyone gets tired of that.

I don't think the activity history also shows ones that are severely abusive, those get modded/flagged out.

user41796

@Shahar Remember that those are the comments we can still see. The "gems" have been removed. And there's really no place for that sort of continued commentary within the SE sites.

Jimmy Hoffa

11:15 PM

@Ampt that's pretty awesome. Congrats on getting such a great opportunity! It's interesting how some company's actually tend to go out of their way to make their employees more effective while others are constantly trying to get in their own way to make their employees less effective, great spot of luck to end up with the former for a start.

(didn't you go to a big public university?)

Robert Harvey

11:37 PM

Let's say you have a GPL application with a MySQL database that has a schema specific to that application. Would the MySQL database be considered an integral part of the application for the purposes of GPL licensing? Could I write a proprietary application that accesses that database using SQL without creating a derivative work?

Shahar

11:48 PM

I think the GPL applies to the schema, but don't take my word

Anyway, would it be alright to resize a video on the client's side? Is it a "heavy" task?

user55340

8

A: Copying a competitor's database schema?

Copyright can only protect things that have an infinite number of effectively equally good ways to do it. That is, copyright does not ever protect function. In addition, describing things with their most obvious descriptions is not protectable either. If, for example, a field holds an address, t...

user55340

From bitlaw.com/source/cases/copyright/engdynamics.html#IIB2

user55340

>
Because the input data formats are organized in a particular fashion to effectuate the performance of mathematical calculations, SSI likens them to a template or tool used by the engineer. We assume this argument relies on Baker v. Selden, 101 U.S. 99 (1880), although SSI has not cited that seminal case. Baker rejected a claim of copyright on a book that described a method of bookkeeping. Moreover, the author's ledger sheets were held not copyrightable because they were necessary incidents to the idea or process embodied in the bookkeeping method. Like Baker v. Selden, whether one denomin…

user55340

And then... the real answer: U.S. Copyright Office: Report on legal protection for databases

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