The Whiteboard

12:30 AM

@Ampt well my website requires HTML5 and JavaScript

So I doubt they'll have terrible computers

BTW it's mostly for mobile

Thus I'm also concerned about using too much of the user's data if it is turned on...

user55340

1:36 AM

Interesting flavor... not bad... foxbarrel.com/products/black-label-cider/blackberry-pear-cider

user55340

user55340

There seems to be a hard cider renaissance going on.

user55340

@TesseractE 'ello. And welcome to the whiteboard.

user55340

(And associated 10k link programmers.stackexchange.com/questions/245677/… - @TesseractE thank you for cleaning up your question)

user55340

> Up until January of 2013, I was actively terrified of programming. I could never decide where to start, dealing with variables instead of straight declarations like in HTML was daunting and the complication leap from Excel formulas was pretty significant.

Then I started a project in Access at work and I've gotten pretty good at VB. I'd like to expand beyond Access, but I'm worried that learning a new language would end up being quite confusing.

I guess my question is twofold: What can I do with VB beyond Access? And if a new language is recommended, which one would be a good 'next step'?

1:39 AM

Man, you guys are on top of things. :D

That question is deleted

user55340

@Shahar thats why I grabbed the text from it and pasted it as a quote.

Yeah, I deleted it, as I was informed this would be a better forum for the query.

Wait you have access to deleted posts?

user55340

@TesseractE Its one of the "I've still got the windows open and I like to give the context if anyone else stops by and looks at it"

1:40 AM

@TesseractE you just want to learn Haskell.

no variables

only declarations

I was about to copy-paste, but I still have it open in my other tab from when I deleted it. :D

No, no Haskell

learn VB.NET

with the user interface and everything

@Shahar hush

user55340

You can still get at it through the 'recent deleted posts' on the profile for a bit.

you don't know Haskell

1:41 AM

go to C# and then C++

user55340

It also happens to still be in my 'new feed items' for the room links.

@TesseractE Haskell is much more like Excel formulas in that it's mathematically based, all declarations, but it is a powerful general purpose programming language

user55340

The real question is what do you want to do with the code?

I know the flavors of C are used pretty widely, but how much of a mental leap would it require to go to that from VBA?

Michael has a point

user55340

1:42 AM

Its a good thing to have significant mental leaps when switching from one understanding to another.

@JimmyHoffa : What is 'Haskell' used for? I can't say I've heard of it.

user55340

When you go from... say... C# to Java, you often find yourself writing C# in Java because its not that difficult... though you're not writing idiomatic java then.

user55340

When learning a new language its often a good thing to try to go in a completely different direction so that you learn the new language rather than learn how to program your old language in the new one.

I jumped to C# because there was a class for C# for a game I was playing that could extract its data. Ditched the game and went straight to programming C# all day long with that class

@TesseractE like I said, it's a powerful general purpose programming language. It can be used for all the sorts of things you do with C# or Java or VB etc. It's one weak point is GUI, but CLI or server interfaces it can be great for

1:44 AM

You can create just random programs, but you need something

anything web based etc

user55340

Haskell will certainly change how you think about programming.

@MichaelT -- Honestly, I'm not sure what I want to do. Mobile apps might be interesting, since I'd be more likely to be able to wrap my head around the scale more. Maybe some rudimentary games otherwise. I think that's why I was able to get into VBA... I finally had a REASON to give it a try.

@MichaelT read his question, I think it might actually fit in his head better than others

for mobile apps

1:45 AM

it's closer to what he has experience with already than imperative languages

objective-C is pretty different from the other languages

user55340

Functional programing isn't that much of leap (though it still is a different direction) for someone familiar with Excel.

(except, of course, the basic things that are common to all languages)

user55340

I'd also toss golang as an option... Android is starting to pick up that for development.

but then there's also Java that's basically C#

1:46 AM

@MichaelT yeah, it can be, but he could start off with it being more akin to what he's used to, and then grow into the other features as he learns the language

the fact that he understands what a declaration is already speaks volumes for how quickly he may pick up Haskell. Many programmers couldn't properly describe the difference between a declaration and a variable...

user55340

Otherwise, for mobile your options tend to be Java(ish) and Go for Android, Objective C and Swift for iOS... javascript for rich web app...

@MichaelT Go for Android? Really?

Never heard that

user55340

I'm not going to say "don't go with Haskell"...

user55340

@JimmyHoffa Its still in the early phase.

Oh yeah what is that Swift thing they announced?

1:47 AM

@MichaelT I'm just more than anything interested in the idea of somebody picking that up at such an early point, and he seems especially well positioned to do so..

Is it more efficient/easier/etc. than objective-C?

user55340

docs.google.com/document/d/…

user55340

> Go support for Android

David Crawshaw
June 2014

Abstract

We propose to introduce Go support for the Android platform. The focus will be on supporting games written in Go. The APIs will be those defined in the Android NDK.

user55340

> During the Go 1.4 cycle, GOOS=android will be introduced to the Go repository, along with cgo support on Android (contributed by Elias Naur). Dalvik-loadable .so files will be produced using the external linker provided in the Android NDK.

Also, from some interactions with other folks while working on my Access project, Java seems like it shares a lot of similarities with VB. I think the big thing is that I'd like to try to make something that can standalone and isn't dependent on Access.

1:48 AM

@MichaelT awesome. I may give that a look, if I were to do something for Android I would hope to use something other than Java... and Go would be a great alternative

user55340

Given go's relationship with Google, I'm surprised it wasn't sooner.

@MichaelT true. I think the fact that it took them so long is the only reason it never occurred to me.

user55340

Though I'm also curious of Swift didn't give Google a push to update their plans for Android.

@TesseractE Java isn't too different from VB. Except the syntax is closer to C

What's with the hate on Java, by the way?

Another point in Haskell's favor: He's the Chamberlain to the Daedric Prince of Madness. :D

user55340

1:51 AM

@Shahar each person has their language preference... I tend to find myself more jvm language based than not... but its more a "Craftsman vs Stanley" type debate.

The tools Android gives to developers suck, though

user55340

@Shahar try IntelliJ... (and I owe @Ampt another nickel)

XCode is terrible, but at least it includes many resources

user55340

@TesseractE if you're open to haskell, by all means give it a try...

I'm too used to Eclipse or netbeans, but I'll look into that

user55340

1:53 AM

And then, if you like IntelliJ, you can get AppCode too...

@Shahar If I'm going to be stuck in an imperative language, I should hope it at least: has higher order functions, and an easy to use project organization/project toolset. Many imperative languages meet one or both criteria, Java meets neither. People may argue with me on the toolset issue, but when you compare it to many other imperative languages (aside from C or C++) it's far more complex

user55340

@GlenH7 btw, riding the train again tomorrow.

user55340

@JimmyHoffa Perl!

@MichaelT would take it over Java.

Got used to Xcode, although it looks really nice.

1:55 AM

@MichaelT -- Heh. I still don't entirely know how it would be used in actual programming. I'll definitely research it, of course. @Shahar, so it sounds like Java could be a 'gateway' of sorts from Java to C?

Perl, Python, Ruby, Node.JS, Go has HoFs but it's tooling didn't look super easy but probably still simpler than Javas. D appeared to have simple tooling, surprisingly

any of those imperative languages meet the 2 criteria I mention

...errr from VB to C

But Perl, python, ruby, node.js

all for web applications really

@Shahar not true

user55340

@TesseractE my language set is: Java & Perl as the two most used tools, but I've done more than dabbled with C, C++, Objective C, Ruby, Pascal... and looking into Scala, Clojure, and go while I'm at it.

1:55 AM

Python maybe not

they're all general purpose programming languages

but I never used perl, ruby, node for anything other than websites

user55340

Perl once ruled the web... but lost its way with the app server (mod_perl didn't cut it).

@Shahar what you've used them for doesn't dictate their constraints

user55340

But its real strength is string processing...

user55340

1:56 AM

(which is what the early web was all about)

It doesn't dictate anything

but that's the way everyone around me was using them

> (which is what almost all of computing is all about)

FTFY

only s/string/symbolic/g

That jet brain thing seems friendlier than xcode

user55340

JetBrains is a company about making coding tools. It shouldn't be any surprise that they make excellent ones.

I'll feel bad for torrenting the hell out of it

Wow I need all of them

user55340

1:59 AM

They make a product where their two major competitors are free... they're going to make a really good product.

Hold on

I am currently using a mac

with windows using Parallels

their .NET compilers - do they only work on Windows? And the Objective-C only works on macs?

user55340

Objective C is backed by clang in most cases...

I got parallels just for VS

user55340

you can get clang/llvm for Windows... though you will be lacking much of the Coca framework for it.

So basically

I should just get it on my mac

user55340

2:02 AM

And there's MonoDevelop which can run on mac - monodevelop.com - but that's mono...

user55340

(and there are some slight discrepancies between the framework for mono and CLI... though I'm not a C# guy to say for sure)

Darn their JS and PHP compilers are separate

user55340

'Sep a rat! E!' -- separate (my way of remembering how to spell separate - picture a woman shouting for her husband (Sep) to separate her from the rat)

OK, I think I'm gonna move on to VB.NET, but I'm gonna research Haskell. Is it possible for programs created in VB.NET to be compiled in some way for Android or is that only Windows Phone right now?

@MichaelT I caught it, I was typing fast

user55340

2:06 AM

JetBrains occasionally has some crazy sales to keep your eye peeled.

separate separate separate

I don't think I can afford $199

Low budget :|

user55340

Back in April they had a 30% off sale.

user55340

blog.jetbrains.com/webide/2012/04/easter-egg-stravaganza

user55340

I got mine back when it was the end of the world - blog.jetbrains.com/blog/2012/12/20/… (75% off everything)

Yeah, just wait 10 months

Nah what I think I'll do

user55340

2:07 AM

Some of their apps do have community editions.

is download the full version in a sneaky way for now

buy it later on

that's what I do with my music too

user55340

You can get the community edition free...

That's what I did with VS too

I had VS ultimate 2010 for like 3 years before I bought it

user55340

jetbrains.com/idea/download <-- see "Community Edition Free"

But I bought it so it's fine. Kind of.

What are the disadvantages of the free one?

There's a $200 difference hence there must be something

user55340

2:10 AM

jetbrains.com/idea/features

user55340

Click on the community edition, note whats greyed out.

user55340

Also note that the commercial version of IntelliJ will also do php... so you don't need the php specific one.

Darn I kind of want the commercial version

user55340

Download the community one... see if you like it.

I need the web development a lot. That's actually why I'm getting it

user55340

2:13 AM

Long term, its a great investment...

Of course, but I can't make the investment yet

I think I'll just play around with the free version

for now

then in a couple of months I'll get the full version

user55340

Subscribe to the blog to watch for the sales.

user55340

They do them at unpredictable times.

Seems like mostly holidays

user55340

@TesseractE btw, remember to stop by any time to ask questions... there is even more 'fun' and people around if you stop by during the workday.

user55340

2:17 AM

End of the world?

or when they need to bump themselves into the black

I don't understand why it's crowded during the workday. Do your bosses allow you to go on this chat?

user55340

Webstorm had a sale end of Janurary for some reason. Back to School seems like it picks up some activity...

user55340

Note two of the tags for the room - this is the window in the other monitor.

Well January

a lot of engineering students now have programming classes

user55340

Earth day last year?

user55340

2:25 AM

They seem to try to keep their sales on the unpredictable side.

Nah

it's the same months basically

"End of the World Day" is just end of the year sale

user55340

Just keep your eyes open for it.

I will, I subscribed

Alright it's already 22:32

I should probably go eat supper... Then sleep early today

Oxinabox

I really want the full quote (and source) of "private, provides encapsulations, not security." basically It is there to make bad practice harder, not impossible.
It is definitely not there to make sure no hacker can get at the data in that field.

I think it might be Bjarne Stroustrup (C++ creater). or it might be MSDN documentation even.

Bye

Oxinabox

2:33 AM

Quote ID is off topic everywhere on SE i think

Ampt

@MichaelT donald trump ain't got nothing on this enterprise

user55340

1:20 PM

@Ampt @JimmyHoffa @RobertHarvey - might I ask for you to cast some a close vote on programmers.stackexchange.com/questions/80397/…

user55340

(and for some reason, programmers.stackexchange.com/questions/71148/… got kicked out of the queue rather than closed as a dup)

user41796

2:26 PM

@MichaelT good luck with the train ride.

user55340

@GlenH7 should be fun once again... might even try to do two different train rides.

user55340

Also, my niece is at the age where you can 'bribe' her for good behavior... she knows that quarters are things that are used to go on rides and get stuff from those stuff vending things... so that makes it easier.

Would it make sense to use a while loop in SQL?

user55340

@Shahar SQL doesn't typically have while loops... PLSQL might, but instead you tend do things like iterate over a cursor or result set.

I didn't mean a literal while loop

as in

using the server-sided language

Because what I have to do is find the parent of a subcomment

and the structure is: ID | PARENT_ID | SUBCOMMENT

For a subcomment, PARENT_ID is the parent comment's ID (and SUBCOMMENT value is 1)

user55340

2:39 PM

Give sitepoint.com/hierarchical-data-database a read.

user55340

There are other structures that you might want to use... depends on your situation (and of course, profile them)

How do you whoop out these link so quickly?

BTW that's exactly what I was going to do (except with WHILE rather than recursion)

user55340

First off, fear my google-fu. Secondly, I know what I'm looking for...

Although it will probably be too slow

user55340

I came across that before when I was working with trying to understand the redmine schema... the preorder tree.

user55340

2:46 PM

If you are doing more reads than writes, consider that presort tree.

user55340

You won't need any while loops to get the tree structure then.

I am actually doing more writes than reads

user55340

Then the presort tree isn't what you are after... still a good thing to have in your tool belt for when you do get it.

user55340

Nested set model

The nested set model is a particular technique for representing nested sets (also known as trees or hierarchies) in relational databases. The term was apparently introduced by Joe Celko; others describe the same technique without naming it or using different terms. Motivation The technique is an answer to the problem that the standard relational algebra and relational calculus, and the SQL operations based on them, are unable to express all desirable operations on hierarchies directly. A hierarchy can be expressed in terms of a parent-child relation - Celko calls this the adjacency lis...

user55340

That said, are you sure you are doing more writes than reads with comments?

2:48 PM

Yes, I'm pretty sure.

Although that nested set model will probably useful for something else

user55340

Anyways... off to ride a train.

cool. I like trains

Ampt

6:46 PM

@MichaelT Close votes incoming!

@MichaelT that's why I got a mobile hotspot! Train time is programmers time!

null

7:07 PM

Lol just came across this: academia.stackexchange.com/questions/23406/…

10:56 PM

Portugal 1-0 against U.S.

half time

11:22 PM

Yay it's 1-1 now

user55340

@GlenH7 btw, saw a place trying to hire a full time engineer...

user55340

note that its train engineer for a 15" gauge... but its still an engineering position... right? right?

Me too

careers.stackoverflow.com

user55340

@Shahar randgn.com

That seems very appealing

user55340

11:31 PM

Amusingly, all the male volunteers there were computer people in a former life...

You mean retired?

Im looking for advice for licensing in github

MIT

user55340

Or weekend warrior type.

Well it's Sunday so they probably have nothing better to do

user55340

11:35 PM

@Kasper Three basic types... GPL, BSD/MIT/... and "none" (you can see it, download it, play with it locally, but not incorporate it or use it anything else)

@Kasper tldrlegal.com Choose your favorite

I actually don't want my code to be redistribated

user55340

Then no license.

Why is it on github then?

user55340

@Shahar resume material, hosting, place to keep it not on local machine

11:37 PM

Because of the issue tracker, and because I dint mind people using the code to learn from it

Or to use privately

But the problem is

What is the code about

It's some kind of educational game

user55340

choosealicense.com/licenses

user55340

Note the 'no license' option.

I think teachers can learn from it to make similar games

But now I get a pull request

Contributor License Agreement

11:40 PM

Chances are, teachers will take it and copy it

user55340

@Kasper Ask the person doing the pull request what the license of the code submitted in the pull request is.

user55340

The thing is, the code submitted is also licensed under some license. With typical OSS projects, they're licensed in the same license as the parent... if its a BSD project, the code being submitted is also BSD license... GPL and GPL...

user55340

though some projects also have a CLA (Contributor License Agreement) saying that contributions to the code need to be licensed in such a way that certain things can be done (like going after people infringing the copyright, or being able to change the license (GPL 2 -> GPL 3 for example))

user55340

A Contributor License Agreement (CLA) defines the terms under which intellectual property has been contributed to a company/project, typically software under an open source license. In 2013, CLAHub was launched by Jason Morrison to make it easier for GitHub contributors to apply a CLA to their work of code. Also, Creative Commons alumna Catharina Maracke released the next generation legal and technical project, Contributor Agreements which provides important contributions to international legal technical aspects of CLAs and lessons learned from previous CLA projects. Rationale Con...

YES 2-1 for USA

And the game is over in 3 minutes

user55340

11:45 PM

I recall the world cup 8(?) years ago... and the pub I frequented..

Oh, back in the day... The day when Spain wasn't one of the first teams to get kicked out of the world cup.

user55340

Nope... 2002.

user55340

Irish pub, so the staff was very much a 'we're watching soccer' place... one of the places you could go to watch.

user55340

Thing was, it was in Japan/South Korea... so that had some fun timzeone issues.

user55340

They were watching the games at 3am or so... after bar closing time (but this pub would let people drink if they didn't become rowdy... just be quite about it).

11:47 PM

You were in Japan/Korea? Exchange student?

user55340

But the final game (and there's a good sized Brazil population in Silicon Valley) there were some off duty police officers watching the game too... so they couldn't.

user55340

@Shahar I was in Silicon Valley back then. Working at Netapp.

Oh

user55340

Game got over at about 5:45 am local time... and all the bar cleared going into the street to celebrate... shortly after everyone out out there the bartender shouted to the street "its now 6am and we can serve alcohol!"

Did you ever work in NY?

user55340

11:49 PM

And the street emptied back into the pub for lots of beer.

I feel like that's something that's very unacceptable in Asia, haha.

user55340

@Shahar Nope. NY doesn't really appeal to me.

I only worked in Israel, NY, and now NJ

Although Silicon Valley seems interesting

user55340

Its... a different place.

Well, weather is like Israel.

user55340

11:51 PM

One time... walking down University Avenue in Palo Alto, I was wearing a shirt that said "SYN" on the front. I had three people walk up to me and say "ACK" and walk away over the course of a few blocks.

user55340

Actually, its really nice weather there...

user55340

redwoodcity.org/about/local_history/exhibits/climate_best/…

Transmission Control Protocol

What's Synack?

user55340

The Transmission Control Protocol (TCP) is one of the core protocols of the Internet protocol suite (IP), and is so common that the entire suite is often called TCP/IP. TCP provides reliable, ordered and error-checked delivery of a stream of octets between programs running on computers connected to a local area network, intranet or the public Internet. It resides at the transport layer. Web browsers use TCP when they connect to servers on the World Wide Web, and it is used to deliver email and transfer files from one location to another. HTTP, HTTPS, SMTP, POP3, IMAP, SSH, FTP, Telnet a...

Oh never mind

Yeah I thought it was Synack not SYN ACK

user55340

11:52 PM

> To establish a connection, TCP uses a three-way handshake. Before a client attempts to connect with a server, the server must first bind to and listen at a port to open it up for connections: this is called a passive open. Once the passive open is established, a client may initiate an active open. To establish a connection, the three-way (or 3-step) handshake occurs:

1. SYN: The active open is performed by the client sending a SYN to the server. The client sets the segment's sequence number to a random value A.

Palo Alto nerds

user55340

The thing is that destiny of geek culture is... interesting to be around.

Yeah I don't think I can handle that

I'm a geek but I don't like being geekish

if that makes sense

user55340

I wear ThinkGeek T-shirts often...

user55340

but its just something to be in a place where you can make a computer joke and have a good chance that random stranger will read the t-shirt and understand it.

11:55 PM

I wear hipster T-shirts

like Nike

or Lacoste or Nautica

@MichaelT I asked the author of the pull request, and he says he want to have the pull request MIT. But I don't see how that could work. I mean, one thing he did is fixing a typo. How can the rest of the sentence be copyrighted, and the typo be MIT :P

user55340

@Kasper But you can incorporate that change into your code without causing problems.

You can't lol

For me it seems a little bit like that I can't accept pull request, without making things really strange legally.

user55340

What you should probably do is put a license file in the project explaining the no license and that the overall project is 'no license' however individual pull requests may be licensed under the MIT license.

user55340

11:58 PM

(reject any GPL licensed pull requests)

why reject GPL ?

user55340

If at some point in the future you could change the license on the overall project to some something else (or even take it closed sourced) without issue from the MIT licensed pulls.

user55340

If you had GPL licensed pulls, you wouldn't be able to take it all closed source.