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user55340
12:01 AM
Holy esolang batman: esolangs.org/wiki/Ziim
 
user55340
 
Jimmy Hoffa
Jimmy Hoffa
@MichaelT The answer is wrong though because he says it's not the taste of aluminum due to internal lining which is totally ignorant of your mouths contact with the unlined aluminum outside as well as the liquids contact with it as you take a sip. and as mentioned in comments glasses have UV protection in the glasses because nobody puts things in glass bottles they don't want to protect from breaking down - which means from the sun as well as the air.
 
user55340
I think the can / bottle issue is more one of "delivery to the part of the mouth" - a well known issue for wine drinkers.
 
Jimmy Hoffa
Jimmy Hoffa
@MichaelT you think it's an aeration issue?
 
user55340
Possibly - also how the liquid flows through the mouth.
 
user55340
12:04 AM
Get a can of A&W. Get a bottle of A&W. Pour each into a classic A&W glass and see if you can distinguish the two.
 
Jimmy Hoffa
Jimmy Hoffa
makes sense. I do enjoy my beers out of the right glasses for the right beer.
@MichaelT Holy shit this is a great idea - except with beer.
 
user55340
However, the taste between the can and the bottle seems different.
 
user55340
That goes to the "you need to try it"
 
Jimmy Hoffa
Jimmy Hoffa
For instance, a proper glass for the proper beer:
 
user55340
Aeration is certainly a possibility - and would also affect the pouring of the beer.
 
user55340
12:06 AM
Another point that was made of keg vs other was that the beer is drained from a different part and isn't the "complete" thing you drink.
 
Jimmy Hoffa
Jimmy Hoffa
 
user55340
7
A: Do cans change the taste of beer?

PlasmaHHAs a member of a Studentenverbindung, having one principle of scientia, we of course tested this a long time ago with around a dozen or maybe a bit more testers. We poured beer from the same manufacturer (fresh batch) into glasses and had people taste them, and for every glass (everyone had mul...

 
user55340
> After around 50 or 60 glasses, there was no statistical evidence whatsoever that any of the three could be identified, or tasted better.
 
user55340
>
From my personal experience though, I always think that a keg is better than a bottle is better than a can. But why is that so? I only have the theory that due to the feeling of the container you drink from, your taste is altered (just like food with the same flavour/taste somehow tastes different, with a different texture). Additionally I think the amount of beer that flows into your mouth is different, as well as maybe the turbulence, causing a different amount of carbon dioxide (or nitrogen, depending on your beer culture) to leave the beer before you can actually taste and swallow (wh…
 
psr
psr
This is clearly the kind of thing that needs a giant government research grant.
 
user55340
12:07 AM
 
Jimmy Hoffa
Jimmy Hoffa
@psr I suspect Germany or Britain may have already done this.
 
user55340
Ouch! (the second section of that bbc article is... NSFM (not safe for men))
 
Jimmy Hoffa
Jimmy Hoffa
> The Peace Prize went to the president and state police of Belarus for making public applause illegal and [then] having arrested a one-armed man for the offence, according to Annals of Improbable Research, who organise the ceremony
 
user55340
Read the next two paragraphs.
 
user55340
Later on...
 
user55340
12:11 AM
> Safety Engineering Prize: The late Gustano Pizzo (US), for inventing an electro-mechanical system to trap airplane hijackers. The system drops a hijacker through trap doors, seals him into a package, then drops the hijacker through the airplane's specially-installed bomb bay doors through which he is parachuted to the ground where police, having been alerted by radio, await his arrival.
 
psr
psr
@MichaelT Especially men with ducks.
 
user20683
12:55 AM
Size of Codebases...Apparently Healthcare.gov is half a billion lines...
 
psr
psr
1:06 AM
@WorldEngineer Perhaps instead of using a database it generates source code on the fly.
No-data database. It's all code.
 
 
2 hours later…
user55340
3:14 AM
@WorldEngineer Thats what you get when you pay a programmer by loc (joking, mostly, I hope...)
 
user55340
 
user55340
> If you have a closer look at the Java code around, allot of developers act as the broomstick and blindly follow rules and guidelines without studying them carefully. Maybe one of the most abused guidelines are the ones in the Gang of Four book (Design Patterns: Elements of Reusable Object-Oriented Software). In an interview Bill Venners had with Erich Gamma a couple of years ago, Erich complains about how some people got the whole thing completely wrong:
 
user55340
>
Do not start immediately throwing patterns into a design, but use them as you go and understand more of the problem. Because of this I really like to use patterns after the fact, refactoring to patterns. One comment I saw in a news group just after patterns started to become more popular was someone claiming that in a particular program they tried to use all 23 GoF patterns. They said they had failed, because they were only able to use 20. They hoped the client would call them again to come back again so maybe they could squeeze in the other 3.
 
user15026
"Allot of developers"?
 
user55340
@AshleyNunn Developers aren't know for great spelling.
 
user15026
3:23 AM
@MichaelT That's why people like me exist, I suppose!
 
user55340
use strict in perl has saved me so many times. I've made so many bugs in languages that are hash table based data structures with typos.
 
user55340
 
user55340
> A few years ago we completed an XP-like project (very similar process)
in C++. We achieved 2000 lines of code per man month. (About 100 lines
of code per man day). The result was about 300,000 lines of C++.
-- Robert Martin
 
user20683
@MichaelT Which is why I own that book but don't read it much.
 
user55340
Hmm...
 
user55340
3:27 AM
trying to get an idea of where they actually wrote. I don't believe 500M at all.
 
user55340
Unless they're counting absurd amounts of documentation and forward engineering of databases (yes, its code... or looks like it) in there too along with all the whitespace.
 
user55340
(forward engineering in databases - you set up the code to do a "if its not there, create it" in the database)
 
user55340
I can also see them doing something like counting the loc in the libraries...
 
user55340
"We used Spring! There's 1.3M loc - ohloh.net/p/spring/analyses/latest/languages_summary )
 
user55340
Hibernate? that's another 1.1M
 
user55340
3:32 AM
Another fun bit... Apache Http Server has 1.7M lines of XML ( ohloh.net/p/apache/analyses/latest/languages_summary )
 
user55340
MySQL has 15M lines of C and C++ code. ohloh.net/p/mysql/analyses/latest/languages_summary
 
user55340
(found an old document stating that C3 had 30k methods. Given the "no long methods" mentality of the early XP practitioners and putting it at 10 LOC / method, that also puts it at 300k LOC)
 
user55340
>From: http://www.artima.com/lejava/articles/gammadp.html
Trying to use all the patterns is a bad thing, because you will end up with synthetic designs—speculative designs that have flexibility that no one needs. These days software is too complex. We can't afford to speculate what else it should do. We need to really focus on what it needs. That's why I like refactoring to patterns. People should learn that when they have a particular kind of problem or code smell, as people call it these days, they can go to their patterns toolbox to find a solution.
 
user20683
3:51 AM
:13619196
 
user20683
 
user55340
4:05 AM
@WorldEngineer slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=4742023&cid=46147387 (on the 'everyone should learn to code')
 
user55340
There you go... blog post challenge for February. Go! Get a bunch of people to write something by next friday on the question "Should everyone learn to code?"
 
user55340
 
user55340
> You should be learning to write as little code as possible. Ideally none … Software developers tend to be software addicts who think their job is to write code. But it’s not. Their job is to solve problems.
 
user55340
 
user55340
 
user20683
4:09 AM
 
user20683
This is my favored article on the subject
 
user15026
@MichaelT These confuse me.
 
user55340
@AshleyNunn They're meant to.
 
user15026
@MichaelT Oh good, it is working.
 
user55340
And through the confusion comes realization at the deeper meaning.
 
user15026
4:10 AM
@MichaelT That I am not sure will come.
 
maple_shaft
maple_shaft
1:10 PM
So what has two thumbs, and set up a universal print server with his raspberry pi?
^ this guy ;-)
I am printing stuff from Ubuntu, Windows 7, iPad, and iPhone
ima printin' fool
 
Oded
Oded
Go recycle those print test pages
 
maple_shaft
maple_shaft
@Oded lol yeah I am pretty wasteful
I use the other side as shopping lists
 
Oded
Oded
lol - good use of test pages then
 
maple_shaft
maple_shaft
1:27 PM
ARRGHHH
I want to keep a counter of every time I type 'ls' into a Windows Command Prompt window
it drives me crazy that I make this mistake 6 or 7 hundred times a week
 
Mike
Mike
Create a ls.bat file that just contains "dir" and drop it somewhere in your path.
 
maple_shaft
maple_shaft
wow
you just blew my mind
 
Oded
Oded
Or use cygwin. Or Windows Services for Unix
 
maple_shaft
maple_shaft
I have been away from Windows for too long
 
Oded
Oded
Or use power shell - I think it already aliases ls and dir
 
gnat
gnat
1:50 PM
6
A: How to set an alias in Windows Command Line?

dbenhamAs Christian.K said in his comment, the DOSKEY command can be used to define macros, which are analogous to aliases. doskey macroName=macroDefinition Macro parameters are referenced in the definition via $ prefixed positions: $1 through $9 and $* for all. But there is one problem - the macro...

 
gnat
gnat
2:29 PM
10
A: Are we ready to graduate?

Ana HevesiJust to clarify, yes, The Workplace is graduating! The community team has been well aware of all the progress this site has made, and we decided it was time. Your new site design is in its final stages, thanks to Stéphane, the newest addition to the SE design team. In a few weeks, the new bra...

are we ready to add a long awaited migration target? :) Preferably with a reference to their meta guidance...
3
A: How do I know if a question is on-topic for The Workplace?

jmacAsk yourself three questions: Is it clear what my problem is? Is it clear what I want a solution to accomplish? Will my question be useful to people in the future? Make Your Problem Clear One of the most common reasons questions get closed on The Workplace is that the problem that the person...

 
Ampt
Ampt
@maple_shaft or just stick to linux ;)
Actually waiting for an image to copy over so I can get at a clean version of debian
@gnat I like their new design!
20
Q: Site design for Workplace.se

Stéphane MartinI’m Stéphane, the new designer at Stack Exchange. First, I wanted to announced that this site is now starting the process of moving out of beta to become a fully-graduated site! Congratulations! Graduation and Your Site Design Graduation comes with a few perks. I have already begun work on your...

discussion featured design
 
gnat
gnat
2:53 PM
"origami icon for the “O” letter" -- O! O-O-O!!! Fantastic! — gnat 21 hours ago
I even found myself at one of the sketches, listed in Water Cooler avatars...
 
Ampt
Ampt
aaaaaaaaaaand our only copy of the "clean" debian image is broken. awesome.
@JimmyHoffa I tried telling my professor that I didn't need my pants on to code, but he disagreed
 
user55340
@Ampt Go into class wearing a kilt.
 
gnat
gnat
@JanDoggen note this part of the message: "They... do not generate lasting value" => this is the case here. Since answer is merely a reference to certification docs (as would be all answers to questions like that), allowing these would turn Programmers into a proxy for myriads certification bodies over there, into a wide open broken window for astroturfing spam where sock-puppets would ask as-if-genuinely, "what's prerequisite for ABCD cert" and the puppet masters will "answer" them with spammy links — gnat 41 secs ago
 
user55340
@gnat Gota update that MSO suggestion with the 'about guidance'...
 
gnat
gnat
how did it get upvotes, do we really want this sort of questions to proliferate?
0
Q: New Microsoft Certification Paths for web developers

Pierre TammetAs a web developer with several years of experience, I'm interested in the MCSD Web Applications certification (exams 480, 486 and 487). I'm wondering if it's necessary to pass the MTA certification (exams 361, 363, 375) to get the MCSD? The MTA exams seem very basic and I think I could easily p...

microsoft-certifications
8
A: Are Certification Questions Welcome in Programmers?

Thomas OwensMy initial thought on this is no. It seems like that would be best answered by a search engine (in your example, searching for things like "microsoft c# certification" or "c# scjp equivalent") or other questions about roadmaps would be too subjective and localized (the answers depend on you and y...

4
A: Why was this question closed, it is clear and has factual answer

Yannis RizosThe question shows no effort at all, Programmers is not a replacement for a basic web search. The "not a real question" close reason reads as: It's difficult to tell what is being asked here. This question is ambiguous, vague, incomplete, overly broad, or rhetorical and cannot be reasonably ...

 
Ampt
Ampt
3:12 PM
@gnat No, because Certs are a waste of time.
 
gnat
gnat
@Ampt ...and source of income for those who certify
 
Ampt
Ampt
@gnat You mean to tell me that the people running the certification community are actually for-profit companies who make money when people take their certification classes?
I thought they did all this certification business out of the goodness of their heart
Why else would they go to all the trouble to tell me how important their certifications will be and how much my future employers will value their certification?
 
Matt S.
Matt S.
I actually interviewed with a company that wanted certifications once.
 
Ampt
Ampt
for what?
how big was the company?
 
Matt S.
Matt S.
Web Development.
It was a smaller company in Illinois.
 
Ampt
Ampt
3:15 PM
which cert did they want in particular?
 
gnat
gnat
@Ampt ahh charity, how could I forget. Sure they collect the money only to further redirect these to fight world hunger
22
A: Regulation of the software industry

gnatSilicon Valley News - June 31, 2015 Horror: Uncertified programmer made program abort "I'll never be able to run again", outputs the victim. Police is investigating. Criminal: License of Dr H. Acker Jr. revoked for incorrect use of pointer and attempts to read from system file Advocate...

 
user55340
Sometimes HR uses a cert as a proxy for "I know how to do this"... possibly an issue in the web world where so many people have basic javascript + php but difficulty with large projects.
 
Matt S.
Matt S.
@Ampt I can't remember exactly, it was quite a while ago. All I remember is the guy was a pompous jerk.
 
user55340
I've seen consulting companies send their employees to cert classes so they have a bigger resume to send to clients.
 
Ampt
Ampt
@MattS. And he thought a cert was a great way to prove your knowledge. Wonder if there's a correlation there..
@MichaelT you know, if you want to pay for your employees to get certified in X, Y or Z, that's one thing
but in todays world where a college degree can mean litte-to-nothing, a 1 week certification is about as useful as my 12 pack of scott
 
Matt S.
Matt S.
3:18 PM
@Ampt He also got mad because I dared to go into the interview without having anything published. Even though I did. Not the brightest fellow haha
 
Ampt
Ampt
@MattS. everytime something like that happens, I'm happy, because that is a bullet dodged
 
user55340
@MattS. He was trying to use proxy and publish as a proxy for having to interview for domain knowledge.
 
Ampt
Ampt
AKA he knows nothing about what he's managing
you should google them real quick and see if they still exist
 
Oded
Oded
MS gold partners (and such) can only get the gold status (or whatever) with a certain amount of MS certification happening in the company. One reason some companies push for certifications.
 
Ampt
Ampt
@Oded That's kind of funny actually. MS pushing its own certs for the sake of certs
 
user55340
3:20 PM
There's also that - a given company offering certifications to help their clients know there's a certain quality in the professional services.
 
Matt S.
Matt S.
Yeah they're still going. The team there seemed good at what they do. Just the manager shouldn't be there.
 
user55340
Oracle, Microsoft, etc... those certs for their products are actually reasonable for the company that is offering them.
 
Matt S.
Matt S.
Ah, I bet it was a microsoft certification, Since everyone uses C# in Illinois.
 
Ampt
Ampt
@MichaelT I'll grant you big name ones like oracle or MSFT. As far as certs go, if you have to get one, might as well get one from the people that made it
I've actually got a few MSFT certs from school, not that I put them on anything
 
Oded
Oded
Doesn't Red Hat offer certification?
 
Ampt
Ampt
3:23 PM
 
user55340
You want to hire a ${type} admin for your company... its all ${company} hardware - getting or expecting a cert from ${company} can be very useful (both for interviews and actual trouble shooting - and the company knows that its being used well)
 
user55340
The certificate in those cases reduces the load on tech support - because people with the cert will be able to solve their own easy problems themselves.
 
Ampt
Ampt
That's assuming that the cert tests what it says it tests
there are just a ton of really crappy certification programs out there
 
user55340
@Ampt If you get a Cisco certificate from Cisco, it will reduce the load on Cisco tech support.
 
gnat
gnat
@MichaelT I don't think certifications are utter trash, I even have done like a dozen of these and about half was helpful to improve my skills. But letting these questions go will add quite some trash to the site. Let Microsoft in, they're reputable, next let Oracle in, next let... and so on and so forth until we're buried in the dark dirty sea of it "what's prerequisite for ABCD cert?" -> "look at www.ABCD.com/spam/prerequisites"
 
user55340
3:26 PM
@gnat I absolutely agree that certificate questions that are lookup the information or call the company offering them are poor questions. Just giving situations where the certificate itself is useful.
 
user55340
(From my days in writing internal apps to support tech support - each phone call to support ultimately costs the company several hundred dollars in time from tech support and internal use of systems, labs, etc... Every call you avoid or solve in less time is significant cost savings)
 
user55340
We had a "how much are we worth" tool running that counted "yes this is helpful" responses on the knowledge base and autosupport "we detected a hard drive with errors, a new one has been sent to you and will show up on your desk tomorrow morning" type things. We saved hundreds of thousands of dollars by avoiding calls.
 
gnat
gnat
@MichaelT yup, if there's someone wise around to help pick the right cert and guide the preparation the right way (not a brainless cramming), it can be fun and useful. Happened to me...
 
user55340
If a cert (that you pay for) can avoid a dozen calls to tech support... that's big savings for the company.
 
gnat
gnat
96
A: How can we motivate employees to complete IT certificates?

gnat motivate employees... to make certificates in their free time because they are on projects Above is a huge red flag, don't do this. If it's really in company interests ("so we can say we have highly qualified employees"), don't cheat about personal improvement. What serves the company, shou...

 
user55340
3:30 PM
Furthermore, (back to cisco example) if you've got someone who can use the products well, the beancounters will be less inclined to listen to the whispers from other companies saying "we can give you better performance" - because you've already got that performance from not poor sysadmins.
 
Matt S.
Matt S.
@MichaelT Yeah, another anecdote. I interviewed with a hospital for a sysadmin job, and they use Cisco, so they asked if I had the Cisco Cert already, or if they'd have to have me get it.
Completely relevant to the work they wanted me to do.
But then again, I think the network certifications are more useful than the random programming certifications.
 
Ampt
Ampt
3:58 PM
I'll certify everyone in the room on proper for loop usage for the low low price of $9,999.99!
my paper is even embossed!
 
Matt S.
Matt S.
@Ampt hmmm.. I'm not sure I trust anything that's not laminated.
 
user55340
@Ampt Can you show me how to write a triangle with stars?
 
Ampt
Ampt
@MattS. Lamination is an extra $49.99 and is only available for the 7 days following the issuance of the certificate
after that you'll need to re-certify to recieve a laminated copy
@MichaelT No, but I'll give you a piece of paper that tells perspective employers that you can!
 
user55340
(anyone who accepts @Ampt 's offer for certification is certifiable...)
 
Matt S.
Matt S.
@MichaelT I want to be real or genuine!
 
Ampt
Ampt
4:04 PM
@MattS. I accept cash or cashiers checks, no personal checks please.
After completion we'll ship your certification to you which should arrive in 6-8 business months.
 
user55340
Hmm... if they add Wine to Beer.SE, would that mean all fermented things belong there? Sauerkraut in Beer.SE? Once they let kimchee in, it will create a real stink.
 
Ampt
Ampt
@MichaelT Mmmmmm Sauerkraut
great on just about anything with Spicy Mustard
especially brats and burgers
 
user55340
@Ampt You need to go to Madison and go to the mustard museum.
 
Ampt
Ampt
... Mustard... Museum?!?
 
Jimmy Hoffa
Jimmy Hoffa
@Oded Worked at a hand full of MS Gold Partners and never knew that...
 
Ampt
Ampt
4:10 PM
@JimmyHoffa You weren't certified to know
duh
 
user55340
 
user55340
@Ampt Yep... actually really good. And they've got a good sized store too with LOTS of mustards.
 
Ampt
Ampt
@MichaelT We have a cheese store near me and now I'm getting into fancy cheeses
 
user55340
And you can sample them too...
 
Ampt
Ampt
I have a 10 year old wisconsin cheddar now and man is that good
 
user55340
4:12 PM
I went there once to the sample counter and said "I have these cheeses, I want mustards to pair with them" and they came up with some.
 
user55340
Another time it was "making potato salad... whats the best mustard for it?" and they had a great one for it.
 
Matt S.
Matt S.
There's a cheese.se in area 51
I'm excited
 
Ampt
Ampt
@MichaelT I'm so hungry now...
 
enderland
enderland
2
Q: What can I do to simplify my departure?

FabinoutI'm asking this in meta.workplace because I don't know if it would fit in http://workplace.stackexchange.com/ . I'm quitting my job on short notice as a developer concepter. As I've been in charge of several projects, how can I make sure that the company won't have much trouble ("when we ...

support questions
 
user55340
You might find "Slimm to Nunne" in the local grocery store (I've found it up here) - its the museum brand mustard.
 
enderland
enderland
4:14 PM
P.SE is being thrown around as a potential home for that questino
 
user55340
glance at knowledge-transfer - it would likely get duped to something.
 
Ampt
Ampt
@MichaelT I'm drooling on my keyboard. Not cool man
 
user55340
(not that it shouldn't be here, but I'd look to dup it)
 
Ampt
Ampt
luckily lunch is a short 45 minutes away!
 
user55340
 
Ampt
Ampt
4:16 PM
@MichaelT I'll certify you in knowledge-transfer for only $4,999.99
special introductory offer!
 
user55340
The sweet hot and the maple peppercorn are very good.
 
Ampt
Ampt
stop it!
 
user55340
How about a gift box of ones designed for hot dogs and brats? store.mustardmuseum.com/product/3304/gift-boxes
 
user55340
 
user55340
 
Ampt
Ampt
4:24 PM
aaaaaaaaand there goes my paycheck
 
user55340
@Ampt heh... though really, you need to visit the store.
 
user55340
Its got like a wine tasting bar... but for mustard.
 
user55340
Madison isn't that far away for you...
 
Ampt
Ampt
the bigger trucks get the bigger, more powerful systems
but we wanted to provide a entry level option
 
Robert Harvey
Robert Harvey
5:01 PM
An average modern high-end car has one hundred million lines of computer code? What did they do before they had microprocessors? Did cars even work?
(this is me being sarcastic)
 
Ampt
Ampt
It's called a carburetor and can replace millions of lines of code! get yours today*

*Terms and conditions may apply. Manual operation required for anything less than ideal condition. Float may get stuck in open position and require draining to allow your engine to run. Not available in all areas. May not pass emissions requirements for the state of california. See your local auto dealer for more details.
 
Robert Harvey
Robert Harvey
I suspect that the iPad they stick on the dashboard contains 99 million lines.
 
user55340
@RobertHarvey It was analog / mechanical "computers"
 
user55340
Analog computer
An analog computer is a form of computer that uses the continuously changeable aspects of physical phenomena such as electrical, mechanical, or hydraulic quantities to model the problem being solved. In contrast, digital computers represent varying quantities symbolically, as their numerical values change. As an analog computer does not use discrete values, but rather continuous values, processes cannot be reliably repeated with exact equivalence, as they can with Turing machines. Analog computers do not suffer from the quantization noise inherent in digital computers, but are limited ins...
 
user55340
Though for the most part, they were just running with reduced efficency. Rather than having the car constantly monitoring the fuel / air mix (for example) and adjusting it it was set to "good enough" and left alone.
 
Robert Harvey
Robert Harvey
5:14 PM
Sure, but I don't think you need 100 million lines of code to do that. I would be surprised if the code that runs the engine is more than 100 thousand.
Unless, of course, they're using GoF patterns.
 
user55340
Bit on the Volt (10M loc) insideevs.com/…
 
user55340
 
user55340
> Throttle-by-wire technology, also known as electronic throttle control, replaced cables or mechanical connections. In modern systems, when the driver pushes on the accelerator, a sensor in the pedal sends a signal to a control unit, which analyzes several factors (including engine and vehicle speed) and then relays a command to the throttle body. Among other things, throttle by wire makes it easier for carmakers to add advanced cruise and traction control features.

These systems are engineered to protect against the kind of false signals or electronic interference that could cause sudden…
 
user55340
It sounds like a lot of code, it is a lot of code, but consider the amount of checking that is done... and the amount of liability they'd be facing if something went wrong. "You will have 101% test coverage of the code, every possible bad input will be non-critical or fatal" etc...
 
user55340
5:34 PM
@RobertHarvey there's some neat range stuff in postgres.
 
user55340
CREATE TABLE reservation (
    during tsrange,
    EXCLUDE USING gist (during WITH &&)
);
 
user55340
That would prevent overlapping ranges in the table - so you couldn't have two reservations for the same room at the same time.
 
Robert Harvey
Robert Harvey
How much of SQL is SQL, and how much of it is stuff bolted on by vendors?
 
user55340
This is certainly a non-standard add on and would bind you to postgres.
 
user55340
But, if you're already there, its a very elegant way of dealing with that set of problems.
 
user55340
5:36 PM
INSERT INTO reservation VALUES
    ('[2010-01-01 11:30, 2010-01-01 15:00)');
INSERT 0 1

INSERT INTO reservation VALUES
    ('[2010-01-01 14:45, 2010-01-01 15:45)');
ERROR:  conflicting key value violates exclusion constraint "reservation_during_excl"
DETAIL:  Key (during)=(["2010-01-01 14:45:00","2010-01-01 15:45:00")) conflicts
with existing key (during)=(["2010-01-01 11:30:00","2010-01-01 15:00:00")).
 
Robert Harvey
Robert Harvey
I got chastized the other day because I didn't understand why someone was using CTE's in what should have been a pedestrian SQL question. "SQL is clearly not your area of expertise; you have no idea what you are talking about."
@MichaelT That looks almost like an exception handler.
 
user55340
@RobertHarvey Some people just like showing off... other times, it may actually improve some aspect of the problem.
 
user55340
13
A: Common Table Expression (CTE) benefits?

JNKAs a rule, a CTE will NEVER improve performance. A CTE is essentially a disposable view. There are no additional statistics stored, no indexes, etc. It functions as a shorthand for a subquery. In my opinion they can be EASILY overused (I see a lot of overuse in code in my job). Some good a...

 
Ampt
Ampt
5:50 PM
on a related note, my measly 2000 rep has impressed some of my classmates who happen to glance at it during class
 
user55340
@Ampt Think what 3000 would do.
 
Ampt
Ampt
@MichaelT probably downright scare them. you're right, I should probably hold back
 
user55340
Imagine what you could get on Beer.SE.
 
Ampt
Ampt
More beer?
2
 
user55340
Improve your vast wealth of knowledge. Btw, don't forget to upvote Jimmy on TW.SE
 
user55340
5:53 PM
He loves seeing a green "+10" and then going "doh! The workplace!"
2
 
Ampt
Ampt
hahahaha
better yet, MP.SE
imaginary imaginary points
 
user55340
gotta watch out though... Beer.SE has close votes at 500 rep beer.stackexchange.com/help/privileges
 
Ampt
Ampt
6:05 PM
0
A: Python for a desktop app

AmptYou'd be surprised at how feature rich the python environment is. Going down the list, I'll try and give feedback on each of the points. Desktop app - Yes. You can write applications which require no internet connectivity to function. Object oriented - Big yes. Python supports lots of fun stuff...

terrible question
but rep is rep
surprised you guys didn't close that one already tbh
 
user55340
Its in the queue - one off topic, one opinion.
 
Ampt
Ampt
good to know
 
Jimmy Hoffa
Jimmy Hoffa
0
Q: Extending Internet Explorer to use a credit card machine and cash drawer

Eric W. GreeneI have a software application which is currently a win forms application using an embedded IE web browser control. The win forms application provides access to an attached credit card machine and cash drawer to the web site running in the IE web control. Its does this by creating JavaScript objec...

internet-explorer
 
Ampt
Ampt
aaaaand I recovered my investment in time through +10 rep. thank god. Got about halfway through the list when I realized that this was a straight up "google all these" question
 
Jimmy Hoffa
Jimmy Hoffa
ee gads.
 
Ampt
Ampt
6:09 PM
ugh
internet explorer
 
Jimmy Hoffa
Jimmy Hoffa
talk about scary register software... sure I love thinking that when I swipe my credit card at checkout some old version of IE is reading the number in JavaScript
 
user55340
It makes me shiver a bit. I don't know enough IE programming to say what is secure and what isn't.
 
Ampt
Ampt
@MichaelT easy: Nothing is secure
 
Robert Harvey
Robert Harvey
@MichaelT Thanks, that's very informative. It was also my initial impression; use CTE's when you want to access hierarchical data. The person who posted the CTE answer cited readability.
 
user55340
My former employer has IE taking credit cards (sweepstakes machines, receipt lookup, credit card application based on existing credit) ... but not cash drawers.
 
Ampt
Ampt
6:11 PM
@MichaelT PCI Compliant at all?
 
user55340
@RobertHarvey The other CTE find that I found was
 
user55340
Hierarchical and recursive queries in SQL
A hierarchical query is a type of SQL query that handles hierarchical model data. They are special case of more general recursive fixpoint queries, which compute transitive closures. In standard hierarchical queries are implemented by way of recursive common table expressions (CTEs). Unlike the Oracle extension described below, the recursive CTEs were designed with fixpoint semantics from the beginning. The recursive CTEs from the standard were relatively close to the existing implementation in IBM DB2 version 2. Recursive CTEs are also supported by Microsoft SQL Server, Firebird 2.1 , Po...
 
Ampt
Ampt
recursive SQL queries? oh my god that must be terrible
 
user55340
@Ampt Yep. It doesn't hold the data at all - its just the same to the browser as another input device (typing in the credit card)...
 
user55340
There's a com(?) object that is accessed through visual basic on the page.
 
Robert Harvey
Robert Harvey
6:13 PM
@Ampt It's the only good way to, say, populate a treeview with recursive data.
 
Ampt
Ampt
@MichaelT Good. I'm dealing with PCI compliance now (taking in ACH stuff and sending it to a third party payment processor)
@RobertHarvey just because it's the best way doesn't mean its good
 
user55340
@Ampt Necessary evil... and thats the preorder tree being nice. Oracle 'connect by prior' isn't too bad.
 
user55340
 SELECT LEVEL, LPAD (' ', 2 * (LEVEL - 1)) || ename "employee", empno, mgr "manager"
 FROM emp START WITH mgr IS NULL
 CONNECT BY PRIOR empno = mgr;
 
psr
psr
@RobertHarvey They are great for recursive and hierarchical. Handy if you have something like a sub-query that gets repeated and there is no other way to write it once. Often just comes out cleaner with a CTE than without.
 
user55340
 level |  employee   | empno | manager
-------+-------------+-------+---------
     1 | KING        |  7839 |
     2 |   JONES     |  7566 |    7839
     3 |     SCOTT   |  7788 |    7566
     4 |       ADAMS |  7876 |    7788
     3 |     FORD    |  7902 |    7566
     4 |       SMITH |  7369 |    7902
 
user55340
6:15 PM
But, if you don't have that, a nested set as a tree works well too: sitepoint.com/hierarchical-data-database-2
 
user55340
 
user55340
You can do a lot of the necessary queries with that structure.
 
user55340
SELECT * FROM tree WHERE lft BETWEEN 2 AND 11;
 
user55340
That selects the 'fruit' subtree.
 
Jimmy Hoffa
Jimmy Hoffa
6:32 PM
Woot! Temperature just reached positive digits! It's 1 degree out! Yay!
@MichaelT That's the epitome of read-optimized structure, because inserts in that are a mess.
Good for static data.
 
user55340
Excellent for rarely changing data... while not as nice as the databases that do have hierarchal data structures, those that don't have to sacrifice something.
 
user55340
@Ampt back to the PCI and IE thing - its not too much of an issue... any more than PCI and a Windows machine. There's nothing about IE in there. There are things about up to date software and security patches (which isn't IE specific).
 
user55340
The other bit is the "if you have a web app" there's a whole bunch of other surfaces you need to verify.
 
user55340
 
user55340
XSS, CSRF don't hit non-web apps easily. You have to try to cause problems there.
 
user55340
6:41 PM
And then if you've got a public facing web app that handles payment cards, 6.6 kicks in too.
 
Jimmy Hoffa
Jimmy Hoffa
0
A: Extending Internet Explorer to use a credit card machine and cash drawer

Jimmy HoffaAt a previous job I worked we used Silverlight for precisely this type of purpose, we would send out SmartCards and SD cards with devices that recorded data onto them, and then they would go to our website and it was mostly a normal website but the upload section was just a little Silverlight con...

 
user55340
Another approach if you're willing to go completely different direction (and likely not practical for the OP) would be to make a Java Web Start application so you can have a standalone app that is downloaded from the web - with all the appropriate cryptographic signatures on it to avoid tampering.
 
user55340
(also cut down our deployment time for inhouse apps - 300 stores, 16 registers per store... but we only have to deploy the JWS app on the 1x server at each store rather than the 16x registers x 300 stores)
 
Jimmy Hoffa
Jimmy Hoffa
@MichaelT there's a lot of approaches that are probably better than what the poster will do - the basis of his application starts off with a terrible approach and then gets worse. The way he's intertwining local and network resources is just scary as it is - you should really choose one or the other, and make all communication between the two formal, minimal, and standards based.
 
user55340
@JimmyHoffa Very true.
 
Jimmy Hoffa
Jimmy Hoffa
6:47 PM
He's working on an intranet application that is accessed by a bunch of retail stores for register transactions - @MichaelT you should probably weigh in
 
user55340
Give me a bit... fighting some local deployment stuff here. Tonight is a deployment and I want to make sure everything is clean as possible.
 
Ampt
Ampt
@MichaelT yeah we just decided to say F it and put all the credit cards and security codes in a text file on dropbox
 
Jimmy Hoffa
Jimmy Hoffa
@MichaelT for his and the register scenario you speak of above - these configuration management and deployment tools are kind of made exactly for those scenarios, www.getchef.com
 
Ampt
Ampt
Lets us keep the multiple servers synced pretty well
 
user55340
@JimmyHoffa Home grown "main office to store" deployment route, though migrated to Altiris recently.
 
user55340
6:50 PM
But the thing of the JWS keeps the server and clients always in sync.
 
Jimmy Hoffa
Jimmy Hoffa
Aye, that's cool.
Sounds like what MS tried to do with click-once (which turned out to be a horribly implemented mess to deal with)
 
user55340
We were also bound to a linux solution for the register to drastically lighten the load of MS licenses.
 
user55340
(~5k windows licenses = Not Fun)
 
Ampt
Ampt
@MichaelT Micro$oft would beg to differ
 
user55340
@Ampt When you are a company as cheap and penny pinching as my former employer...
 
Jimmy Hoffa
Jimmy Hoffa
6:53 PM
@MichaelT Yeah, this is the first company I've worked at which was attentive enough to money to even care or notice the MS licenses in any way other than "Hey write a PO for this" -> "Ok, Here it is" -> Approved
 
user55340
The machines that it replaced were still running DOS.
 
Jimmy Hoffa
Jimmy Hoffa
Here it's more of "Hey I need a license for this" -> "Really? Do you? Are you sure? Can we do something else instead? How about we get rid of some of the licenses we have, might you know how to do that?"
 
Ampt
Ampt
@JimmyHoffa You work in IT now?
 
Jimmy Hoffa
Jimmy Hoffa
@MichaelT Are you knocking Pascal POS systems? Because c'mon...what beats a good old...pascal...flat-file based...POS system.
@Ampt ??
 
user55340
@JimmyHoffa It was raw old school C with bits of assembly mixed in for direct access to serial ports and the like.
 
Ampt
Ampt
6:54 PM
@JimmyHoffa they're asking you to manage your own licenses?
 
Jimmy Hoffa
Jimmy Hoffa
@Ampt We don't manage them, but if we're developing something that requires new servers or we want to use some new software that requires a license in a new app we're writing... We have to submit requests for the licenses to use that software
 
user55340
The problem they were running into was constantly bumping up against memory limits. Expanding business rules meant that you had to go through and say "nope, the rules in that library aren't used anymore..."
 
Jimmy Hoffa
Jimmy Hoffa
@Ampt it's pretty normal in software engineering to have to be attentive to the costs of the solutions you're designing, as well as making requests for whatever is required in your solutions, which includes licensing costs, even if you're only paying attention insofar as to write a shopping list to hand off to IT because they approve everything - I was saying this is the first job I've had where we hand off the shopping list and they actually scrutinize it or reject stuff
 
Ampt
Ampt
@JimmyHoffa do you mean licenses for deployed software or stuff for development?
 
Jimmy Hoffa
Jimmy Hoffa
@Ampt If we want to create a new service that will need to live on it's own server and our performance analysis tells us we'd be best to keep it's data in it's own database server separate from the others - we need to go to IT and say "Hey, for this new service we're creating can we get a new database server?" to which they may say "We aren't going to pay for more licenses right now, so figure out how to solve it without that"
 
Ampt
Ampt
7:03 PM
 
user55340
@Ampt Just wait till we get the migration path to TW.SE... we'll be able to send all the questions we don't like that way.
 
Ampt
Ampt
@MichaelT @enderland is gonna love it!
 
Jimmy Hoffa
Jimmy Hoffa
@MichaelT haha yeah, that's a perfect TW question. @enderland I think I'm going to flag that Q for migration there now!
 
Ampt
Ampt
@JimmyHoffa you fixed all that and then left "traiangle"
 
Jimmy Hoffa
Jimmy Hoffa
@Ampt it was just annoying me that the word "for" was highlighted throughout his quote because instead of making it a quote he made it code
 
Ampt
Ampt
7:07 PM
also, you're pretty close to 10k! Then you'll be able to take on my responsibilities too!
 
enderland
enderland
hm. at least I'll know how to make a traiangle!
 
Jimmy Hoffa
Jimmy Hoffa
@Ampt No, when I hit 10k I just get to drop bounties on you to hit 3k which will get me below 10k so I don't need to do anything, but you'll need to start CVing
@enderland You start with one dash of tra, then you get a protractor.
 
enderland
enderland
protraiactor?
2
 
user55340
@JimmyHoffa You know you want those delete votes to be able to clean up the closed license questions you so love...
 
Jimmy Hoffa
Jimmy Hoffa
@MichaelT Ok, true. I will DV the hell out of some license Qs.
 
Ampt
Ampt
7:09 PM
> enter code here
missed that gem
 
Jimmy Hoffa
Jimmy Hoffa
7:20 PM
@Ampt I couldn't help myself. I entered code there.
 
Ampt
Ampt
@JimmyHoffa I wasn't sure if you literally inserted code or if you literally inserted code
isn't that great? you can't be wrong when using the word literally anymore
I literally can't use it incorrectly
 
Robert Harvey
Robert Harvey
Says literally rhymes with bitterly. I think not.
If it did, it would be spelled bitterally
 
user55340
bilaterally?
 
Ampt
Ampt
biliterally
 
user55340
7:36 PM
bibitterly?
 
Ampt
Ampt
butterfly?
 
user20683
@Ampt a small bug with big consequences.
 
user55340
@WorldEngineer The sound of thunder?
 
user55340
A Sound of Thunder
"A Sound of Thunder" is a science fiction short story by Ray Bradbury, first published in Collier's magazine in the June 28, 1952 issue and Playboy in June 1956. As of 1984 it was the most re-published science fiction story up to the present time. It is based on the idea of the butterfly effect (though the story predates that phrase). Plot summary The story begins in the future, in which the time machine has been invented but is still very temperamental. A hunter named Eckels pays to go traveling back into the past on a guided safari to kill a Tyrannosaurus rex. As the party waits...
 
user20683
@MichaelT probably not that severe.
 
Ampt
Ampt
7:55 PM
Wonder what the hell butterflys have to do with butter
Thank you!
 
user20683
@Ampt I use plasma. Fire is too mundane.
 
user55340
Need another close vote... and you know, once Glen, I have 20k, we can join Robert (or others) in quick question deletes.
 
Ampt
Ampt
@WorldEngineer That's more than I could have hoped for!
 
user55340
Glen is at 19,980 rep...
 
user20683
@MichaelT O'rly?
 
user55340
7:59 PM
@WorldEngineer Yep... you should dock @GlenH7 a few k rep for not showing up in chat recently.
 
user55340
Either that, or find 20 answers he downvoted and delete them...
 
user20683
8:25 PM
 
user20683
I wonder if Andy would satiated by that...I doubt it.
 
user55340
8:54 PM
@WorldEngineer speaking of... there's a flag for you.
 
Ampt
Ampt
> Blech
can't quote and reply I guess
 
user55340
> blah.
 
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