The Whiteboard

3:28 AM

Evening

6:19 AM

author of link-only answer can't even recall reasons why they recommended it. Out of curiosity, I tried to follow the link to find maybe there's a useful summary there to edit into the answer - no go :)

1

A: Next language? Something practical but off the beaten path?

I think no one has mentioned it since it is just a year old. Try Go.

Thomas Owens

1:22 PM

Annoying: In Java, you can populate a DefaultComboBoxModel using an array or Vector. You can't populate a DefaultListModel the same way. :(

Stan R.

3:18 PM

anyone here?

user55340

@StanR. Often, though this is when it starts picking up.

user55340

@StanR. if you click the info link above the avatar bar you can see a histogram of daily activity. (US based times) earlier in the day it is quieter, and earlier in the week it is quieter. So a Monday before noon may take a bit.

Stan R.

gotcha

Jimmy Hoffa

3:55 PM

@StanR. that doesn't mean you can't ask any questions you came here to ask

Jimmy Hoffa

4:07 PM

@MichaelT the spike trends down. I think it's exactly what @YannisRizos pointed out; some semester started somewhere at the beginning of march, and a professor maybe pointed people to P.SE and slowly the students are dropping activity

user55340

5:08 PM

Ohh! 6k rep!

psr

@JimmyHoffa - Do type constructors just fall out naturally from regular old constructors + currying? If so, pretty elegant. (Would be helpful to me to know which parts of Haskel are built in language features and which are built on those. Though it's possible you might have some implementation choices there, but I'd settle for how GHC does it.)

@JimmyHoffa - You had a big list of things to learn about Haskel next. But how much do you think you have to know before it's a more productive language than, say, C#?

@JimmyHoffa - Is there a technical reason you can't use Haskel at work, or just the fact that nobody wants to maintain a language they won't easily find programmers for?

Jimmy Hoffa

@psr your questions lead me to think you've realized what I did shortly after getting into haskell: It's not a toy. It's a robust language that can be used for all the normal applications development work we normally all do in java, C#, python, what have you. Technical reasons it's not being used? No, it's not used anywhere because it's mind boggling to learn.

psr

@JimmyHoffa - But how much do you have to learn to have a better environment than, say, C#?

Jimmy Hoffa

How much must you know before it's more productive than C#? Iduno, that's hard to say partially because I can write C# like the wind where Haskell I've gotten faster with, but it still takes some thinking; the results always turn out wayyy shorter than the C# form would be though. Realistically you could take do notation and run amok, I think understanding the type system is really all you need to be as productive

which is no easy feat, but when you can read it and have some sense of what types you need where and why to structure your program, I think you're well on your way

psr

I would think if the crossover point is soon enough, why not write meh Haskel for a while, and get better? I think it might be harder to find programmers, but might get you some good ones who just want to use the language.

Jimmy Hoffa

5:17 PM

and I don't understand your first question, I can say type constructors can be partial and curried

psr

I mean, did they have to do anything special to have type constructors, or did it fall out automatically. I just learned what type constructors are, so I may be way off base.

Jimmy Hoffa

@psr I think that's absolutely the truth. If I were a consultant or freelancer who got to make the decision, I would definitely choose haskell without ever looking back just because if nothing else; the people you get will be awesome

@psr type constructors are the crux of the algebraic data type, they're much older than haskell and based in math

type constructors vs. types vs. type classes vs. instances are altogether a bit confusing which is which at first for a while

What are you referring to as a "type constructor" ?

psr

I'm wondering about Haskel for run of the mill enterprisey crap. Haskel Enterprise Library? If you can't do run of the mill enterprisey crap then you are probably a niche langauge

Jimmy Hoffa

@psr it definitely can.

psr

It might put a dent in the get awesome developers theory though. Worlds most mathematically elegant insurance forms?

Jimmy Hoffa

5:22 PM

like I said, it's not a toy; from what I've seen, there's absolutely nothing I do in C# enterprise development that I can't do in Haskell too

haha yeah that's true

all the same, for the opportunity to work in haskell, it may work.

call it budget haskell; you don't need the skills of a quant or cs theory researcher to write enterprise software in haskell, so you'd be talking one of the only opportunities available for work in haskell to people who are neither of those things, I think there's a lot of great engineers who are neither of those things who would still like to work in haskell. Ok maybe not that many haha

Jimmy Hoffa

5:35 PM

@psr think of it like this; Haskell enforces such rigid boundaries throughout your code that to change anything you're going to have a minimum of changes throughout the rest of your code. Enterprise software is the epitome of constantly-changing-requirements, how often do you think they change insurance forms?

maple_shaft

5:53 PM

1) Our most important client gets sued by one of their vendors because my companies service suspended their facility access and "cost them business"

2) We suspended them because they didn't comply with our clients TOS

3) Most important client tried to blame us

4) Lawyer proves its not our fault, our names were thrown off of the lawsuit

5) Most important client now demands that we provide free services for all home care and end-of-life care vendors

thorsten müller

where is this? here in Germany companiies can cancel contracts with their vendors without such hassle...

maple_shaft

6) We tell them that is impossible because we need development changes to even allow for our system to not automatically suspend people who do not pay

Jimmy Hoffa

I like that this comes in step-by-step form, in case any of us feel like trying this recipe...

maple_shaft

7) They demand that we develop the changes for them free of charge

8) CEO agrees without hearing my estimate

thorsten müller

Question: How to tell customer that he sucks without getting sued even more?

maple_shaft

5:58 PM

9) CEO: You can get this done in the two weeks before you leave for the new job right?

MFW

user55340

@thorstenmüller "even more"? Put it in a legal document.

maple_shaft

Jimmy Hoffa

@thorstenmüller in america lawsuits are executed, won, and lost based on number of lawyers relative between the two entities involved

user55340

@maple_shaft ... Umm... Angry panda is angry... ?

maple_shaft

@thorstenmüller Yeah I am in 'Murrica

legal decisions are based on who has the most money

we lose

thorsten müller

6:00 PM

@JimmyHoffa yes, I heard that much. Strange that this doesn't totally crash.

maple_shaft

I am so happy that I am leaving this place

thorsten müller

Interesting detail is that Americans have lawyer jokes that somehow don't work here in Europe (or only for people who have some knowledge of the US system)

If I star the panda will it play forever on the sidebar?

Jimmy Hoffa

They don't have jokes about lawyers likening them to vampires or other such creatures in europe?

thorsten müller

Nope.

Jimmy Hoffa

Weird.

maple_shaft

6:03 PM

They know we will fold if we lose them as a client, our brilliant sales people haven't gotten a new contract in over two years... they represent half of our revenue, and we are just barely in the black

thorsten müller

Not that we wouldn't have this type too, but in general it's a respected career

maple_shaft

they are bullying us

Jimmy Hoffa

@thorstenmüller in america lawyers are mostly used by corporations to push people who don't have the time or money to fight things in court into paying them what little they do have

thorsten müller

We had customers try this too. But once you realize that in IT the customer depends on the IT company as much as the other way around things can move towards reasonable agreements very fast.

Jimmy Hoffa

Not really "respected" as such

thorsten müller

6:06 PM

Here in Germany lawyer costs are capped by law somehow (for most cases anyway)

graphicsman

greetings

maple_shaft

@thorstenmüller It works much the same way here too I suspect... what astounds me is that I don't even think the leadership in this company decided to even try

@thorstenmüller Germany must be an awesome place to live

Jimmy Hoffa

@maple_shaft whenever I hear about people like that way up in managerial chains, I'm always baffled as to how they ever got there.

and sadly you hear about that stuff all the time

maple_shaft

no wonder your country is saving Europe right now. Your leaders make logical informed and efficient decisions

user55340

@JimmyHoffa Its the Peter Principle...

user55340

6:12 PM

Peter Principle

The Peter Principle is a proposition that states that the members of an organization where promotion is based on achievement, success, and merit, will eventually be promoted beyond their level of ability. The principle is commonly phrased, "Employees tend to rise to their level of incompetence." In more formal parlance, the effect could be stated as: employees tend to be given more authority until they cannot continue to work competently. It was formulated by Laurence J. Peter and Raymond Hull in their 1969 book The Peter Principle, a humorous treatise, which also introduced the "salutary ...

user55340

There was a study that showed (via math) that promoting random people will result a more competent management chain than is otherwise seen.

Jimmy Hoffa

@MichaelT I have never seen anything like that in practice. Am I the only one who see's promotions a total rarity in out industry?

I know of the peter principle, but I feel like it's dated, or maybe applies to pen-and-paper style institutions maybe

user55340

It really depends on the management chain and structure. Where I worked before, you had two tracks - technical and managerial... so programmers didn't become managers.

user55340

I could say things about my current employment... but ask me in ~6h so I'm not using a work computer to say them.

Jimmy Hoffa

@MichaelT granted, but everywhere I've worked, everytime someone leaves the immediate talk is that "They're looking for someone to replace them" and never is it a matter of promotion

user55340

6:15 PM

The math study... arxiv.org/pdf/0907.0455.pdf

Jimmy Hoffa

I've no interest in management so I don't care, I just find it weird

user55340

> In conclusion, our computational study of the Peter principle process applied to a prototypical organization with pyramidal hierarchical structure shows that the strategy of promoting the best members in the PH case induces a rapid decrease of eﬃciency

user55340

> On the other hand we obtained the counterintuitive result that the best strategies for improving, or at least for not diminishing, the eﬃciency of an organization, when one ignores the actual mechanism of competence transmission, are those of promoting an agent at random or of randomly alternating the promotion of the best and the worst members

Jimmy Hoffa

Oh, do you mean the peter principle is causing companies to avoid promoting from within altogether?

thorsten müller

Maybe not altogether. But if a top manager is aware of it he may choose to be very careful. So if I have a great programmer and need a project manager I would really think twice if he will still be good when his job isn't about coding anymore.

Jimmy Hoffa

6:20 PM

Yeah, I wouldn't expect that to be a common transition altogether though

That's more of a "promotion to where you can't hurt anything"

which is good for some people..

user55340

@thorstenmüller I've generally seen programmers promoted to managers still try to be a programmer... and fail at both then.

user55340

Or, if not failing at both, get completely burnt out as they try to maintain the responsibility for both because they won't let programming go.

thorsten müller

Wouldn't work for me. I would totally reject the idea of managing people, schedules and customers.

Jimmy Hoffa

@MichaelT I'm about to flag your messages as inappropriate if you don't go downvote something to fix your score

user55340

@JimmyHoffa I'm getting too far past 6k... I would need to cast 25 answer downvotes to get to 5999.

Jimmy Hoffa

6:23 PM

I sometimes wonder if I would like management, but I know I like to code, so I don't bother worrying about it.

user55340

Though, @JimmyHoffa you do have 74 answers...

thorsten müller

Anyway, I don't care who calls himself boss as long as things happen as I want them to :)

user41796

@maple_shaft - congrats on the new gig! First I've heard of it and it sounds like it's been a long time coming for you!

user55340

The best managers I've had understood the technical (came from a BA background) and understood the political (something most programmers don't) so that they protect their people from the political.

Thomas Owens

New company, @maple_shaft? Or just new team/position?

user55340

6:27 PM

@ThomasOwens upward movement position at parent company IIRC...

user55340

@thorstenmüller Not in the sidebar, but he's constantly doing it in "show all"

user55340

Apr 12 at 14:18, by maple_shaft

@JimmyHoffa I accepted a senior lead position at the parent organization

Thomas Owens

Ah. I missed that.

I've been buried so deep in like 4 things today.

And for the past week.

user41796

@ThomasOwens you're not the only one. :-) Too bad maple_shaft can't just walk away from the latest flare up

user55340

We all get busy... and despite being The Whiteboard and P.SE being the most important things in the world... things do come up.

Thomas Owens

6:31 PM

Partly it's my own fault. I signed up for everything. I can get everything done, but almost no time for anything else.

user41796

@MichaelT - I know, right? Would you believe there wasn't even 1 question on my PE exam about P.SE or even SO?

user55340

I remember it because I was part of the conversation - the change diary is still showing up in the recent stars and is a good read (and I starred You can't fix stupid).

Thomas Owens

@GlenH7 How did your PE exam go? And which one was it?

user55340

@JimmyHoffa Dang... look at my rep and its up another 40... sigh I doubt I'll be able to do a gnatload of downvotes to be able to get my rep down far enough.

user41796

@ThomasOwens EE - Computer & Electronics. I think it went well, won't know for another 2 months

Jimmy Hoffa

6:35 PM

@MichaelT I went and upvoted a few of your answers just to screw with your symmetrical score

user41796

Questions got down to either I knew it or didn't, which is where you want to be for an open-book exam.

Thomas Owens

@GlenH7 There's no way in hell I could pass that. I don't know enough physics or math.

user55340

@JimmyHoffa I've done that to Yannis on occasion... even harder for him to maintain it.

Thomas Owens

I wanted to take the new Software exam, but I lost track of time and missed the registration date in New Hampshire.

user41796

At PE level, there's very little physics. Math, yes, but not as high level as you're imagining.

user41796

6:36 PM

@ThomasOwens - you've cleared your FE I presume?

Thomas Owens

@GlenH7 I need to waiver it. You can do that here. I graduated 2 years ago before there was an FE exam.

user41796

I specifically skipped the SW PE this time around because it's too new. Too high of risk without enough material to understand what questions would be asked

Jimmy Hoffa

...ferrous engineering...f'real engineering...flank engineering...

Thomas Owens

The SW exam is my university curriculum, for the most part. Except for the security stuff.

user41796

The FE was more grueling because it's covering all the engineering fields. dynamics and I still don't get along

user41796

6:38 PM

The security Q's on my PE were .... lightweight but reasonable. Usual trickiness that you would expect with an NCEES type question

user41796

<bragging> I blew through the SW related questions on my exam. Some of the CMOS stuff... ugh.

Thomas Owens

I just remember looking and I don't know anything about half the topics on the other exams. Too low-level, too mathy and physicsy. I'd much rather talk about requirements and architecture and design and security than all of that.

user41796

@ThomasOwens - if you're wanting to take next April's SW PE, I'd actually recommend getting things rolling now. The NH board of technical professionals (or whoever grants approval) will take a few months to receive and process your request to register for the exam. They'll likely want transcripts and whatnot too which takes time to acquire.

Thomas Owens

@GlenH7 Yeah, I was planning on doing that next month, after this April's exam cycle is done.

user41796

Then start building up your arsenal of reference material and work as many questions as you can. A big strike against the SW PE from a test-takers point of view is the limited # of practice questions that are out there. I recall your having those samples from IEEE which is goodness

user41796

6:42 PM

Now might be a better time - there's a 1 - 2 month lull between test taking and before NCEES releases to the states

user41796

NCEES does a crazy amount of analysis and review before releasing results

Thomas Owens

Yeah, plus I have the CSDA and CSDP study material that I picked up before I left school. A couple of years out of date, but the CSDA/CSDP exam was the basis for the SW PE exam.

user41796

I did not know that... That's great intel

Thomas Owens

Perhaps next week, then, I'll call and email people.

user41796

Those two exams have quite a bit more material available

Thomas Owens

6:43 PM

I'm just insane busy this week.

user41796

Don't bother with PPI if they even put out a "reference" manual for the SW test

user41796

their ref manual for CE / Electronics was .... average at best. Not the biblical reference that it is in other fields

Thomas Owens

Most of the recommended material for reading I already own. They were my course textbooks at RIT.

user41796

That's bueno as well; certainly can't argue there. NCEES style questions are notoriously tricky in that they'll provide the "correct answer" but for the wrong logical path. So you may think you did the problem correctly.... but they put the trap in place to trip you up

user55340

@JimmyHoffa There was a pun in a SF book (audio only oddly at the moment) about 'bœuf tech' as a steak house... could do some other fun stuff with trans language puns.

Thomas Owens

6:46 PM

What do you mean by that? Wrong logical path?

user41796

I put in ~150 - 200 hours of studying, but it's been quite a while since I've been out of school and I didn't take a traditional CS / CE degree

user41796

@ThomasOwens - thinking of a generic example

user41796

here's a few that are more FE like, but whatever

user41796

you'll have a problem that's essentially a plug & chug but also requires a conversion before plugging. So they'll give an option of the wrong answer if you had failed to perform the conversion.

Thomas Owens

Ah.

user41796

6:48 PM

Another example would be alternative scales. One problem had answers of 1000, 100, 10, 1

Thomas Owens

Those. Yeah, I'm familiar with that. The same thing that's on just about every standardized test since high school.

user41796

NCEES is particularly devious about it, IMO. I applaud their efforts. :-)

user41796

And I apologize for not giving specific examples from the tests. Part of the candidate's agreement is that test takers aren't supposed to divulge the questions to anyone else.

Thomas Owens

Yeah. That's legit. I just wasn't sure what you meant by that wording. I have a much better idea now.

user41796

They take their question secrecy quite seriously. Having a cell phone in your possession during the test is grounds for a) confiscation of the phone, b) expulsion from the test, and c) no refund of your test fee. :-)

Thomas Owens

6:51 PM

Wow. Although there are worse things that could happen to cell phones.

user41796

they even provide the pencil to fill in the bubbles with. you're not allowed to bring your own writing instruments

user41796

one other tip that jumps to mind - have your own "cheat sheet" notebook of equations, explanations, definitions, etc... handy. It's a lot easier to look things up in your own reference book than to tear through 3 or 4 other books to find things.

Thomas Owens

Yeah. I'm not used to this whole "open book" thing. I've gotten so used to "memorize all the key terms, memorize all the relationships, GO!"

user41796

I'm very happy I put a binary conversion table in there along with all the signed variants and whatnot. Yes, I can write them out, but it was awesome just looking it up, plugging in and going

user41796

you need both

user41796

6:55 PM

but some of the questions will hinge upon a tiny nuance and you'll have to look them up

user55340

Years ago... college... we had an "open book, but it had to weigh less than the text book." This was the last year that text book was used... so a number of the students just ripped off the cover and brought the book.

user41796

relying upon your memory can actually trip you up in those cases

user41796

@MichaelT - that's brilliant

Thomas Owens

I salute those students.

Uhm...why is Twitter going on about mass casulties in Boston during the marathon? No news sites have anything. Anyone?

user55340

@ThomasOwens No clue, don't have twitter, guessing its a viral twitter hoax that someone started.

Thomas Owens

6:58 PM

There are pics.

Of smoke and fire.

And marathon runners. Unless it's photoshopped. Either some serious shit is going down in Boston or this is the worst prank ever.

Woah. Yeah, Boston Police is tweeting. Something went down. Multiple explosions. o_o

user41796

With the internet? I always assume worst prank ever

Thomas Owens

And reports of bomb squad moving in now. o_o I wish I had a TV. Or headphones to get radio news.

user41796

@ThomasOwens - doesn't sound like any media is aware of what's going on at this point

Thomas Owens

@GlenH7 Except for local media. The newspapers from Boston through Manchester and Tweeting.

No national coverage yet.

user41796

I have a number of comments I could make about people bombing a marathon, but it doesn't sound like this is a situation where that sort of humor would be warranted. I hope no one was (seriously) injured in the blasts.

thorsten müller

7:11 PM

There is news in CBC and Reuters about some explosions. Maybe in a hotel near the finishing line.

Reuters: The hotel that serves as the headquarters for the Boston Marathon was locked down on Monday after a security incident near the finish line. Two blasts were heard by reporters in the media center.

Yannis Rizos

@ThomasOwens Live stream from the finish line: boston.cbslocal.com/2013-boston-marathon-finish-line

Thomas Owens

@YannisRizos Streaming things are blocked at work. :(

Yannis Rizos

@ThomasOwens Damage from the explosion(s) is visible, the area is evacuated, police and firefighters seem relatively calm.

user41796

On a bit more of an upbeat note - I was reading Martin Fowler's commentary today and the blog he linked regarding the associated Richards controversy. And it continues to amaze me that tech and programming are fields were you can have folks surrounding the globe coming together and interacting

Yannis Rizos

user41796

7:19 PM

It's impressive to see how quickly events spread throughout the world now and everyone can at least observe at the same time together

Yannis Rizos

@GlenH7 Richards controversy? What did Keith do this time?

user41796

Adria & the pycon comments

user41796

Adria Richards is the woman who was (rightfully) offended by some asinine comments being made that were at best off-color and at worst exceptionally inappropriate in a public setting

Yannis Rizos

@GlenH7 I know I was making a (bad) Rolling Stones joke.

user41796

ah, my bad

user41796

7:21 PM

Drugs + Keith would have made more sense. :-)

user41796

er wait ...

Yannis Rizos

> I have long despaired of the net nastiness that hangs over our profession...

Martin Fowler sounds like a Programmers mod.

user41796

every now and then he calls it very well

user41796

The Ohanian blog is the one I was referring to as well. Pretty well written

thorsten müller

Boston made it to German news now too. Not more info yet.

Jimmy Hoffa

7:30 PM

"It happened" will be the only news for the first ~2-3 hours along with random and constantly changing injury counts

(I figure) will check back when I get off tonight. That sucks.

maple_shaft

@GlenH7 ty! Yes I am happy about the move. I will get an opportunity to mentor .NET developers in Java programming and best practices

I will also be doing mostly system design and architectural duties

I don't have patience for coding anymore, so it is a dream job for me

leave the coding for the young'uns

user41796

7:58 PM

@maple_shaft - I find your comment regarding not having patience for coding to be interesting and a bit amusing. After a ~4 year hiatus from full-time coding, I'm very happily back to full-time. I think that's part of career development though - understanding what it is that you enjoy and want.

maple_shaft

@GlenH7 I am just not a very good programmer

at least with the likes of people who frequent Programmers and StackOverflow

user41796

That doesn't stop the rest of us... ;-)

maple_shaft

I go to conferences and events all the time where people talk over my head on mundane technical details

I do understand business and design of LOB apps

user41796

A good friend and mentor of mine went into management from programming. He really enjoyed the change of pace and his background was invaluable when it came to guiding his team.

maple_shaft

I am very good with architectural principles, modeling, conceptualizing a system, and just knowing how to do most everything soup to nuts in a good enough way

user41796

8:03 PM

Star Wars Ep I had recently come out, so I had to swap out his internal profile picture with Darth Maul's but it was all in good fun.

maple_shaft

Optimizing a search algorithm... not so much

user41796

my observation is that most folk are in one camp or the other if they belong to a camp

user41796

The bit twiddlers are the one you want optimizing the algorithms

maple_shaft

shit! g2g

user41796

lol, c'ya

user55340

8:07 PM

@GlenH7 Ever look at the Surgical Team from Mythical Man Month?

user41796

@MichaelT yep, no doubt

user41796

Brooks touches upon that ideal team well. Not sure I've seen a firm that could really utilize it, but my experience has been as broad as it could be I guess

user41796

I think it's the legacy learning curve that limits the applicability of that type of a team, but now I'm just pontificating

user55340

The surgical team is a good idea... and I like it a lot, but it doesn't handle the modern world's approach and the widely varying level of skills. I would be tempted to add another position in the team of 1 or 2 "apprentice" which are brought in, part of the discussion (but the able to make decisions that the co-pilot can in the absence of the surgenon) and there to learn about the system and do the simpler tasks"

user41796

If an org was looking to unify its development teams, I think a surgical team could be very helpful as well. If nothing else they can act as ambassadors or communication conduits.

Stack Exchange

9:20 PM

Blog - Stack Exchange: Introducing our Careers 2.0 Employer Resource Center

Bethany Marzewski on April 15, 2013

When we launched Careers 2.0 back in 2011, we set out with a goal: make the job search process better for the millions of programmers who visit our site every month. Part of achieving this goal is educating employers about what you want from them. In the past, our annual user survey helped us help companies change the way they found and hired programmers, while Joel’s book on how to find the best technical talent and his talk on how to stand out and attract top talent are a few other examples of how we’ve worked to educate tech companies on what you really want. …

user55340

9:37 PM

@JimmyHoffa if you haven't stumbled across this, you might like it - research.microsoft.com/en-us/um/people/emeijer/Papers/…

Jimmy Hoffa

@MichaelT I've used parsec, it's awesome. a more efficient version was developed by another fellow which he called attoparsec that is a streaming parser. Thanks for the link, I'll have to read into that in detail because I had been really curious how parsec/attoparsec work under the covers in the past (they have really complex type constructors). I've written my own parser combinators approximating a guess at how those ones worked, but I still don't actually know.

Also didn't realize Eric Meijer had such a hand in parsec or MSR in general, explains why parsec is so well documented

I knew Eric Meijer is a signatory on the haskell '98 report

user55340

As I said, I thought you'd enjoy it.

Jimmy Hoffa

9:59 PM

> Naive implementations of backtracking parser combinators suﬀer from a space
leak. The problem originates in the deﬁnition of the choice combinator. It
either always tries its second alternative (because it tries to ﬁnd all possible
parses), or whenever the ﬁrst alternative fails (because it requires arbitrary
lookahead). As a result, the parser (p <|> q) holds on to its input until p
returns, since it needs the original input to run parser q when p has failed.
The space leak leads quickly to either a stack/heap overﬂow or reduction in

My parser combinators always suffered from the ladder issue which I never liked, but didn't spend the time to solve

user55340

@JimmyHoffa latter - ladder issues you would find on Home Improvement. ;-)

Jimmy Hoffa

Interesting, parsec isn't automatically backtracking as I recall, attoparsec blows it out of the water in space and time performance and it is automatically backtracking, while this paper is saying the non-automatic backtracking forcing consumers to often times use zippers or manually call backtracking was what made parsec performant...

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