The Whiteboard

user20683

12:07 AM

filling out useless reports that no one reads? I do that weekly

user20683

set up arbitrary displays that don't have a snowballs chance of selling? I do that weekly

user20683

Give presentations that no one cares about? I like speaking in front of an audience.

user20683

Blather on to no one long after everyone has left or fallen asleep? I'm doing that right now

Jim G.

1:38 AM

10

Q: When to use Requirejs and when to use bundled javascript?

This may be a dumb question for web guys. But I am little confuse over this. Now, I have a application where I am using couple of java script files to do perform different task. Now, I am using java script bundler to combine and minified all the files. So, at the run time there will be only one a...

IMO - This would be an ideal question for Programmers.SE. Unfortunately it's over at StackOverflow, and there's no migration path.

GlenPeterson

4:51 AM

I just voted to reopen this question. I can't understand why it was closed: programmers.stackexchange.com/questions/189542/…

I think it is a really good question and would like to see more like it on this site.

gnat

6:46 AM

@GlenPeterson as far as I can see, this question invites drinking from a firehose...

gnat

7:08 AM

@MichaelT known problem, at MSO there is even a tag: ambiguous-tags to discuss these...

134

Q: A real solution to ambiguous tags

Introduction Even within a site's relatively focused range of topics (it's unlikely anybody on SO will think sun refers to the solar system's star), some tags are inherently ambiguous. There are currently two unsatisfying options: Declare that the tag is only to be used for one of the possibl...

feature-request tags tag-synonyms ambiguous-tags

user41796

12:17 PM

@GlenPeterson - I have edited and voted to reopen that question as well. Solid question, too bad they buried it in the middle of the text.

user41796

@maple_shaft - that question has 16 answers now. And I think part of that is because it is a polling question and it begs for discussion. Interestingly, there's only 3 or 4 answers that are short and non-answers. The others seem well thought out and fairly valid. I don't agree with all of the answers, but that's partly why Robert floated the question.

user41796

What I would like to see is some action we can take as a result of the answers to that question. I haven't seen any / much specific feedback on the suggestion of putting in some canonical questions to help with the repetitive off-topic questions.

maple_shaft

@GlenH7 sigh...

I suppose I can be happy that meta works

user41796

it is driving meta participation.....

maple_shaft

@GlenH7 There is nothing we can do at this point other than wait for SE to do something

user41796

12:32 PM

True; but the question helps highlight the need. So that's goodness.

maple_shaft

SE has recently stated to the moderators that there are some BIG changes coming soon

we haven't been given many specifics but we aren't supposed to say more than that

thats one of the things that kills me about that meta discussion

I wish I could tell people that things will get better relatively soon

user41796

N00b question - is there an SE mechanism to provide feedback to close voters? For example, one of Karl B's concerns is that there are "serial close voters." How can we provide provide feedback like "this wasn't off-topic, it was NARQ " or "it was NC."

user41796

Likewise, would SE entertain a lightweight lock from 10k+ users on a question so the question could be hashed out in meta? That suspiciously sounds like a MP.SE or MSO question that I should float.

user41796

@maple_shaft - as frustrating as it is for you to be teased with some details (and I agree with SE's approach of non-disclosure to such a large group as the mods), it's even more frustrating to us non-priv'd users. :-)

maple_shaft

@GlenH7 Well certainly float the question on Meta.SO ... but.... I can't say much more than what I already have

it is frustrating for me to know some basics and not tell the world

MadKeithV

1:17 PM

Editing etiquette question: in programmers.stackexchange.com/q/189613/31090 the original poster just reverted an edit to clean the question up a bit (the "gif me teh codez" bit). How should these kinds of actions be dealt with?

maple_shaft

@MadKeithV Well it is a minor edit, and a minor rollback from a user that probably doesn't understand how peer editing works on SE

I would probabably just leave it as is and explain that other users will edit questions to improve the quality and readability of the question, and that it is generally frowned upon to rollback an edit without an explanation.

MadKeithV

@maple_shaft Right. That's pretty much my intuition too - I have added a downvote as well (to clearly indicate that the question needs improvement through all the site systems)

maple_shaft

@MadKeithV How does it need improvement?

MadKeithV

1:32 PM

@maple_shaft In this particular question it's mostly that last sentence that turns it from a pretty valid question into something that kindof smells like a "please just give me the code" question. Note: I didn't do the original edit.

maple_shaft

idk... I try not to jump to conclusions, it could just be a poor command of the english language

MadKeithV

@maple_shaft Completely with you - that's why I said "kindof smells like", and used the phrase "gives the impression" in my comment.

I swear, a few more months of participation here, and I can become a diplomat

maple_shaft

@MadKeithV I think thats great! We need more people willing to comment on a question rather than just close indiscriminately.

gnat

2:09 PM

@maple_shaft "flagging refactor... in a few weeks"?

14

A: Moderators should be able to undelete comments

It's going to take more than a 100 point bounty to get this implemented... just kidding, I'm in the middle of this code right now anyway, so I'll implement comment undelete for moderators. Will be a part of the flagging refactor, so look for it in a few weeks.

maple_shaft

@gnat TEH AWESOMEZ!

@EricLippert This will not happen as the wave file contains several interviews being recorded continuously with pauses in between. A VAD gave me areas where it presumes voice to be. As I know the number of total conversations(f.i. 3) my goal is to filter them automatically. The cutlist is the raw output of my VAD. — user1505034 8 mins ago

See... you probe a new user a bit and you find out that they are actually doing something very interesting

the system works

user55340

2:30 PM

The challenge with most poor questions is to get at the problem behind the problem... the first problem (I want a book for C, or what is a framework that does foo) masks a good question "I'm trying to do this and am running into a problem..."

user55340

Does anyone have the comment quick links (such as [ FAQ ])? As we appear to be getting more people active in comments again (I saw @MadKeithV ) it helps for them to know how to make commenting less tedious.

maple_shaft

2:42 PM

@MichaelT Hmmm ... uhhhhh..... no

but you inspired me

151

Q: AutoReviewComments - Pro-forma comments for SE

No more re-typing the same comments over and over! This script adds a little 'auto' link next to all comments boxes. When you click the link, you see a popup with 6 configurable auto-comments, which you can easily click to insert. This script was inspired by answers to this question on meta....

script

5

Q: Templates for moderators for comments

So I'm not sure if this idea has come up, but on Travel.SE we have very regular comments to new users, generally along the lines of : "Welcome to Travel.SE. Currently your question is not a great fit...." "Welcome to Travel.SE. You've asked a question as an answer, and as such..." "Welcome t...

discussion feature-request comments

I retract that... YES YOU CAN!

user55340

Those are good help, but I was thinking the [ FAQ ] to FAQ transition...

maple_shaft

user55340

Sorry to pick on @MadKeithV again...

user55340

Hi, on this site the community will often edit your question to improve it and make it a better fit to the site. Rolling back such a change is generally frowned upon. In this case that final sentence was probably edited because it gives the impression that you are not interested in the reasoning behind solving this problem but just want a solution - as the FAQ (programmers.stackexchange.com/faq) says: "we are looking for questions that inspire answers that explain “why” and “how”. — MadKeithV 1 hour ago

user55340

Its that "If only he knew how to make that easier"... Knowing those quick links also makes it so you don't have to type as much and can use those precious characters for other things.

maple_shaft

2:47 PM

@MichaelT Well part of this problem is easily fixed by adding manpower

Yannis Rizos

@MadKeithV Re that edit: It was a minor and pointless edit. Yes, it's a bit "gimme teh codez", but it's only a very small detail that doesn't really hurt the question. I don't mind the rollback, to be honest I'd prefer if the edit hadn't happened in the first place.

maple_shaft

which is sort of the point of the whole last moderator election

less time handling flags, more time interacting with users

Yannis Rizos

@maple_shaft Hm? I thought the whole point of the election was that you didn't want to be the new guy anymore, and wanted someone to boss around?

maple_shaft

@YannisRizos Well that too

;-)

user55340

I thought the point of the election was that you guys work for us and we decided to double all the pay and could then afford to hire a new one...

maple_shaft

2:52 PM

@MichaelT Double of 0 is still 0... but it was a nice gesture on their part ;-)

user55340

Just be glad it isn't imaginary... the tax code is complex enough as it is.

Thomas Owens

@MichaelT I don't know about the other mods, but I fight for the user.

MadKeithV

@MichaelT Nah I just like being really verbose ;-) I don't know some of the shortcuts by heart, and sometimes you have to be quick here to attempt to salvage a question before it gets closed and the new user gets demotivated and never checks back.

user55340

@ThomasOwens hmm... Thom... if I squint that looks like Tron...

user55340

@MadKeithV Yep... The one that I know will save you some time though is just a nice [ FAQ ] without the spaces becomes FAQ.

user41796

2:56 PM

Look - it's my first MSO question!! (RE: soft-locking)

user41796

0

Q: Allow 10k users to soft-lock questions

In order to better support community driven moderation, I would like to see a soft-lock feature for 10k users. Programmers, and I suspect other sites too, has a number of questions roll through where the first presentation of the question is ... marginal at best. Some of the time, this is due t...

feature-request questions review 10k-tools locked-questions

Yannis Rizos

@MichaelT Tron... is... Alan Kay.

(bet you didn't know that ;)

user41796

@MadKeithV - I agree that it can be hard to swoop in quickly enough to make the saving edit before the close votes pile on.

user41796

n00b Q - do I need to babysit my MSO question like I would with a P.SE question? ie. how likely is it that comments can take the question down the wrong path and doom the question?

Yannis Rizos

> how likely is it that comments can take the question down the wrong path and doom the question?

@GlenH7 You've just described MSO.

user41796

3:00 PM

wru-wro wraggy.... :-)

user41796

@YannisRizos - thanks, and I'll keep that window open this AM then..... It will be interesting to see how the vote tally plays out. Can I beg for some upvotes then to gain some traction? :-)

user55340

@GlenH7 Alas, I only have 101 rep there, so all I can do is upvote... guess you'll get an upvote then.

MadKeithV

@YannisRizos It was probably not the best example of that particular type of problem (possibly bad edit reverts by users), but it was AN example of that problem. Probably the wrong problem to focus on for that particular question.

user41796

MSO is worse

user41796

omg, the volume....

Yannis Rizos

3:05 PM

@MadKeithV In general, if you see a problematic rollback/edit, revert, comment and then forget about it. The important part is the comment, you are not just educating the OP that their rollback was problematic, you are also informing the next reviewer that there might be something of interest in the revision history. If the OP comes back and reverts your revert, the next reviewer will hopefully catch it and flag the post for mod attention.

So, in general the process is exactly what you did.

@GlenH7 I've upvoted your MSO question, but it was a sympathy upvote.

maple_shaft

2

user41796

@YannisRizos - thanks. I'm sure the vote split on my question is interesting to watch...

user41796

8 up / 7 down so far. All in under 15 mins. wowsers.

user55340

@GlenH7 MSO has more activity than most SE sites.

user41796

no kidding! Can I post a follow-up rant about "why all the down-votes with no comment?!" ;-)

user55340

3:18 PM

Twice the questions/day than P.SE

user55340

(I wish I could see the Answers/Question as a quick number on stackexchange.com/sites )

user55340

P.SE 108k answers, 24k questions = 4.5 answers/question on average.
Math.SE 177k answers, 113k questions = 1.6 answers/question

user55340

We've got the highest A/Q ratio of any site. Second place is RPG.SE with 14k/4.4k giving 3.2 answers/question on average. This may be a symptom of the confusion.

user41796

@MichaelT - it could also be symptomatic of the field. There's way more than one way to solve a problem within the realm of programming. And many of them can be equally right. IMO, it's one of the biggest differences between true CS where the claim is there is only one correct answer and with applied programming where many answers are equally good enough and get rounded up to being right.

user55340

Wait, code golf beats us... 7200 answers, 966 questions. Though I think that's by design.

user41796

3:28 PM

I think we see a number of answers where a subtle but important nuance is highlighted amongst the top answers.

user41796

3:40 PM

@gnat - many thanks for the edits on MSO!

user41796

My hidden gem of the day, props to MikeBrown for indirectly calling it out.

user41796

-2

A: Open source software with good code documentation to improve design skill

These books offer some high-level perspective on how and why certain open-source software is designed the way it is: The Architecture of Open Source Applications There are two volumes that cover a wide variety of open-source projects, both old and new. For example: The article on bash covers ...

GlenPeterson

@gnat @gnat I'm actively looking from an intellectual fire-hose to drink from. I want to read things that blow my mind. That doesn't happen in a 140 character tweets, and it doesn't happen with well-defined "yes or no," or one-right-answer kind of questions. Instead of shutting down interesting, on-topic but open-ended questions, could we instead focus on removing the poor answers that sometimes get posted on good questions?

user41796

Definitely worth clicking through to peruse those tomes. They even got some hack named Grady Booch to provide an endorsement. </snark about Booch>

MadKeithV

4:17 PM

@GlenPeterson The answer linked above your message is serendipitous - those book recommendations seems like a true firehose of interesting information. Shows that it does happen here, you just can't ask for it with a shopping-list question...

user55340

@GlenPeterson As I understand it, 10k users are limited to what they can remove... it requires a negative score on the answer and that requires people downviting answers.

user55340

The problem with drinking from the firehose of questions is that it doesn't scale well. Try keeping on top of the firehose at /. - there is a selection process to winnow it down so that people can partake in it. And then there are the comments that just don't scale at all well.

user55340

The firehose is also related to the handshake problem where the number of possible conversations goes up very rapidly. Consider a meeting where everyone is talking with 5 people vs a meeting with 50 people... which is going to actually have things be useful.

MadKeithV

@MichaelT Neither of them, you should be writing code instead.

user55340

@MadKeithV Before you write code, you must first have requirements and/or negotiate contracts.

MadKeithV

4:22 PM

@MichaelT The requirements are wrong, and the contract will be signed three days after the final delivery deadline. Crap, this just went from tongue-in-cheek to I-hate-my-life ;-)

user55340

@MadKeithV Its more fun when the deadline is fixed, the requirements "fixed" (only will grow in scope), and the estimate is much past the deadline... and yea...

gnat

4:58 PM

@GlenPeterson well to be precise it's impossible to drink from a firehose, as the picture clearly shows, but I think I understand what you mean and I would be very interested in experimenting with various ways to acheve that. Okay, let's see. If we try it at current environment, we'll get something like as written in the "firehose post" I referred:

> first person asks a (subjective) question, second answers it (so far so good huh?), twenty more add answers from different perspectives, fifty more attempt all imaginable kinds of jokes, hundred more add all imaginable kinds of side notes... and so on and so on, over and over again

Above is clearly what I would want to avoid at any price - not because I can't handle that (I can and I will enjoy reading "twenty... answers from different perspectives") but because "50 jokes and 100 side notes" will make a wide open broken window oh that's Programmers forum c00l, let's chit chat like that (and don't tell me that isn't necessary to happen if we open that door, because that's exactly what happens in hot questions already)...

Okay so if we want to keep the door shut, this necessarily means heavy moderation of answers in questions that may have "twenty... answers from different perspectives". This, in turn, means,...

> We're looking for long answers that provide some explanation and context. Don't just give a one-line answer: please explain why you're recommending it as a solution. Answers that don't explain anything will be deleted. See Good Subjective, Bad Subjective for more information.

2. Next, we need moderators to be ready, and willing and available to use their power to delete garbage. Because, well, if they don't, then you'll have these "50 jokes and 100 side notes" making their way into the site. And don't tell me that community regulars voting would stop that - it wouldn't

> ...it attracts a lot of visitors whose desire to answer is not balanced by local community norms... There are just too many new visitors to keep things under local community control, and there are just too many new voters and commenters to get things going as designed... So comes next and next and next round of garbage answers, bumping the question, bringing mindless upvotes, over and over and over again...

3. (Carthage delenda est) it would be very helpful to have collider formula fixed to avoid bumping question "hotness score" with crappy answers. Observing the way it works now for Programmers questions, makes me doubt that moderators and community will be able to handle amount of crap caused by perversely high position of the questions at collider...

...Recalling "git history" question and especially more recent one about "curly braces" (where I monitored and even experimented with collider score) I would say it can turn out too tough no matter how we try...

1. We need some sort of formal justification for mods to remove not clearly flaggable answers - because doing this informally would open another kind of broken window - do you want moderators to delete answers with justification like "I just felt it's not OK"? I for one don't. As far as I can tell, "insufficient explanation" post notice on the question would do the trick...

"This, in turn, means,..." should have been be followed by "1. We need some sort of formal justification" - message has been eaten by chat sorry

Martijn Pieters

5:43 PM

@ThomasOwens: thanks for the migrate, I am out of close votes for the day. :-)

user55340

6:44 PM

Today's "I have hope" comment...

user55340

I'm sorry I didn't read the faq's before hands. It is clearly mentioned there that I couldn't ask these type of question here :). — user2001332 25 mins ago

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