Game Development

Noctrine

12:14 AM

:o

no more duck

Ricket

12:25 AM

95 more rep til I can edit other peoples' posts

Then I shall execute my evil plan to change everyone's posts! Mwahaha!

Seriously though like, that's not much of an accomplishment.

I'd take a gold badge over the ability to edit peoples' posts any day :)

Noctrine

12:37 AM

Lol

Tetrad

3:26 AM

gamedev.stackexchange.com/badges/54/enthusiast woo

Ricket

oo nice

i am apparently on consecutive day 17

Gabriel Isenberg

3:46 AM

ahoy

Ricket

Hi!

Gabriel Isenberg

Working on anything entertaining? :D

Ricket

Nah just personal stuff - catching up on my email, calendar, facebook, etc

I just throw this screen on a netbook and leave it by my side pretty much day and night :)

You?

Gabriel Isenberg

a good plan! how long has the chat channel been available?

Gabriel Isenberg

I just noticed the header today

Ricket

3:56 AM

Oh, just a few days now

Gabriel Isenberg

recently read through Masters of Doom and was feeling a bit inspired. Trying to get some sort of procedural content generation fired up in the Wolfenstein 3D engine

Ricket

I'm really hoping to get more interest because so far it's basically just been me and the two mods, Noctrine and Tetrad

Gabriel Isenberg

Wolf3d was the easiest to get compiling on a modern computer, given that the iPhone port from last year was open sourced, complete with commercial assets

Gabriel Isenberg

kind of a funny history! iPhone version looks to be a port of a port of a port

Ricket

That's neat - I haven't looked at it at all but sounds interesting

I'm an Android dev, tried my hand at iPhone and it's so different from Android that I got frustrated and pretty much gave up :)

Gabriel Isenberg

4:00 AM

truth!

Gabriel Isenberg

extent of my iPhone developery-ness is getting the screen to display hello world when a button was clicked!

Gabriel Isenberg

which was itself an epic feat given the toolchain and design philosophies.

Ricket

I know right?

Throw me into the OS X environment which I'm not used to, and then make me use XCode which I've never used, and make me write stuff in Objective-C with a WYSIWYG-style screen designer... it was all so different!

Gabriel Isenberg

Decorate your code with all sorts of stuff that the compiler defines to nothing so that the next tool can try and figure out something so you can eventually drag and drop a thing to another thing? Yeah, fun.

Gabriel Isenberg

first thing I tried to do was get something compiling from the command line. Horrendous failure. :D

Ricket

4:02 AM

Haha, can you even do that?

I don't think I can even find the command line in OS X

Gabriel Isenberg

Indeed! Though, I'm not sure how you get something to the iPhone from there

Gabriel Isenberg

Terminal!

Gabriel Isenberg

Drops you in a linux-y terminal window, best feature of OSX so far.

Ricket

Well, I think I'll stick to Windows and Linux

my terminal here in Linux drops me in a linux-y terminal window too :-D

Gabriel Isenberg

in any case, getting xcode to compile the Wolf3D iPhone port was much easier than figuring out how to compile C code written in 92 without a copy of Borland 3.1

Gabriel Isenberg

4:04 AM

It's funny, because Carmack ported Wolf3D from someone else's port, who ported that from someone else's port, who ported that from the original source

Tetrad

4:15 AM

well you don't have to use interface builder to make iphone apps

and supposedly the new version of xcode integrates everything better

Gabriel Isenberg

true enough! I approached it from the interface builder angle, though

Gabriel Isenberg

the toolchain felt very disjointed though

Gabriel Isenberg

good to hear improvements are coming in that area

Tetrad

it's actually all in the same app/window now, instead two different ones with a bunch of floating windows. So it feels more like working with visual studio

Gabriel Isenberg

nice

Gabriel Isenberg

4:23 AM

when's that due for release?

Ricket

huh, that's anti-apple isn't it?

Tetrad

beats me

Ricket

like apple apps have always been many windows for each thing, with the overall application taking over the bar at the top

Tetrad

appleinsider.com/articles/10/06/19/…

well it actually looks a lot like itunes now

Ricket

it's one of the things i find interesting, how you can close all the windows and not close a program

Tetrad

4:24 AM

they still have the "you can close all the windows but the app is still open" paradigm though, it's just not MDI or whatever it's called

Gabriel Isenberg

yeah, that's a bit different

Gabriel Isenberg

hooray, imgur.com/RbRNj.png

Ricket

nice

i'm off to bed, goodnight guys

Gabriel Isenberg

night

Nailer

12:18 PM

Echo!

Ricket

4:58 PM

Tetrad or Noctrin (or any other mods if there are any), can you perhaps pastebin any deleted answers from the following question, I thought there was a good one about scheduling but it's gone. Or maybe I've just gone crazy. gamedev.stackexchange.com/questions/2467/…

(can't wait til i hit 2k rep lol)

Sean James

(Me being the third mod) There's 1 deleted answer, deleted by the owner: pastebin.com/1Svwc9XY

Ricket

That's the one I was talking about, thanks! I dunno why it was deleted, I think it's really good... I suppose the owner's opinion should be respected but I wish I could ask them.

And sorry for forgetting about you :)

Sean James

Aww it's ok

Sean James

There aren't any comments or edits on the post so I guess they just weren't happy with it

Simon

Pity, the answer was quite good

Ricket

5:02 PM

I know right! It was one of the first answers to the question too, so it's not like he looked at other answers and they were better or something...

Sean James

It looks like it was the third answer actually... or maybe the page isn't sorting correctly

Noctrine

5:22 PM

@Ricket what? did @Sean do that for you?

Oh yep

Sweeet! Got Enthusiast.

Ricket

6:14 PM

Haha yeah Tetrad got that yesterday :)

Tetrad

hey who wants to see my latest game

itunes.apple.com/WebObjects/MZStore.woa/wa/…

Simon

@Tetrad: Looking good!

Firas Assaad

That looks pretty cool

got a video somewhere?

Simon

(Unfortunately I don't have an iphone)

Tetrad

yes

►

Gabriel Isenberg

6:16 PM

looks purty!

Simon

It looks kind of similar to Osmos, is it?

Tetrad

not really, it's more a chain reaction bubble popping game

Ricket

full of magical enegry

Tetrad

the mood is similar

Simon

Ahhh now I see

So this is where I want to get an iPad ;)

I loved the feeling of Osmos, and this seem equally relaxing.

Ricket

6:18 PM

(^ caption typo)

Firas Assaad

Nice trailer

Ricket

Awesome trailer though!

Firas Assaad

Don't have an iphone either

Port it to Android!

Simon

Yeah!

Sean James

Wow that's really awesome

Simon

6:19 PM

Port it to android ;)

Firas Assaad

Android might be the next psp: engadget.com/2010/08/11/…

Sean James

How about a PC version?

Sean James

I'd rather see it on a big screen than my little phone's screen

Tetrad

it's in unity so I have an android version but it isn't quite prime time ready

Simon

Ah nice

Tetrad

6:22 PM

I also have a web version but there's no easy way to monetize it

Firas Assaad

I kind of regret not using Unity for my Android game

Guess I'll do that next time

Simon

What are the android devtools like?

I haven't even looked into them yet.

Firas Assaad

Java with an Eclipse plugin and an emulator is the standard way, you can write C/C++ code and call it from Java with the Native dev kit if you want

Noctrine

Is it bad that I need to create a reason to use C++ for something?

Firas Assaad

Oh, I've learned many reasons...

Ricket

6:30 PM

Nope, that can be good for learning

Firas Assaad

if you end up writing Java that looks like C++, might just use that

Gabriel Isenberg

+1

Ricket

Gabriel: you can star something that someone says

Gabriel Isenberg

lesson learned!

Ricket

@Me: you can reply to something someone says -_-

Gabriel Isenberg

6:30 PM

I've yet to ship a game, they've all been excuses to learn something interesting

Gabriel Isenberg

so creating reasons to use C++ seems to be on the right track :D

Noctrine

Currently, all my work is in Unity

Simon

I can barely remember the last time I didn't use C++ except for scripting in my own engine heh :/

@Fire Assaad: Can't you use c/c++ for everything to the android? Just like the iPhone? (well I know it's objective-c but)

Noctrine

I had an engine project, but UDK and CryTek announced they wanted to do the same so yeah...

You can use the NDK

I think that is what I will have to do

Simon

NDK?

Noctrine

6:32 PM

developer.android.com/sdk/ndk/index.html

Simon

Thanks!

Noctrine

No problem.

Firas Assaad

@Simon: Yeah you can, when I decided to use Java I thought it'd be a better fit for a small project. In fact, I think it was the right decision in retrospect

but you shouldn't approach making a Java game like making a Java program

Simon

@Firas Assaad: Yeah that's probably sane.

Both the choice to actually do it in Java and make it like a game and not a java program ;)

Firas Assaad

For example, you DO NOT want the garbage collector to run in the middle of a game

it just freezes :<

Simon

6:35 PM

Hrm, isn't it simpler to just throw in a wrapper for something like Lua or GameMonkey and just have a minimum c/c++ skeleton so you can manipulate things like gc yourself?

Ricket

I like to think of it as the garbage collector emphasizing that allocations/deallocations in a real time app in general are pretty bad. You just feel the effects more on the Java platform, and are forced to learn about things like resource pools.

Simon

Ah, that's a good point.

Ricket

In C++ you can allocate and deallocate all you want, the heap will just fragment like crazy and you might not have stalls but you'll have decreased performance. In a way I'm glad the GC is there. But of course sometimes you wish you had a bit more control over it, like "stop that, I AM using pools I just need to use a little more memory than you're used to, back off!"

Firas Assaad

Well, it's not just the garbage collector, for an example, according to the profiler the collision detection system was running 70% of the total game time. I went over the code several times and couldn't see anything wrong

yesterday I simply change the collision detection class to final (can't be inherited from), and now it takes only 20-30% of the time

probably getting inlined by the vm now

Ricket

Probably, but C++ people supposedly have the same problem with virtual methods

or similar anyway.

Firas Assaad

6:39 PM

I don't know how to explain it, but in C or C++ you feel more in control

In C++ you have to declare that a method is virtual

Ricket

Oh there's no doubt about that, I'm just trying to douse the flames a little :)

Firas Assaad

in Java all methods are virtual by default

Well, I like Java

It's just different I guess, when writing a real time application

Ricket

Yep, absolutely.

Simon

I always tend to feel so restricted by all languages where I have no real power over knowing what my data will look like in memory

I mean sure you can use pools, but what about my data type?

Ricket

:79821 ?

Simon

6:42 PM

Well, one example is (I must admit I haven't studied this in java much) is if I provide a static initialized list of function pointers, how can I reasonably take a look at that structure in java to see that my function pointers are correct? (If say, one of them would crash).

Firas Assaad

Java doesn't even have function pointers :P

Simon

Even worse!

heh

And also, how could I possibly implement something like an in-place memory-loading system in Java? Is it even possible?

Firas Assaad

Yeah I agree

It's not designed with these kind of requirements in mind, while C or C++ are

Ricket

Java's version of "function pointers" is through the use of interfaces. So for example if you talk about the Observer pattern, you'd create a simple interface with a method, "onMessage()" or something, and then classes would implement the method and add themselves to the list of observers of a publisher class.

The publisher would have a list of MessageListeners (the name of the interface) and would iterate it and call each class's onMessage() method. It's all compile-time checked, no chance of crashing.

Simon

Right. This is different.

Let me explain it in c++ terms

Ricket

6:47 PM

Yes, and then please explain the in-place memoryloading system as well :)

Simon

I have a templated function, int Foo<int i>() { return 0; }, I want to use a macro DECLARE_FOO( INDEX, TYPE ) int Foo<INDEX>() { return sizeof(TYPE); }. I then want to have an automated generated list of function pointers to all the different instanciated versions of Foo(). I do this by having an enum { E_ONE, E_TWO } etc with an E_MAX. That way I can use E_MAX to get all the function-pointers.

An in-place memoryloading system is simply where you load a buffer from disc (or wherever), assign a type-pointer to it and it runs. If you want a more complex system you need to be able to sort up pointers and things like that.

Ricket

is "int Foo<int i>()" valid?

Simon

template<int i> int Foo() { return 0; } is, yes.

Well, I can't declare it - sorry, template <int i> int Foo();

Oh wrong again, I sure can declare it. That's the default-one.

Ricket

the part that's throwing me off is <int i> - are you declaring an integer i inside a template thingy?

Simon

Yes.

Just like a type.

Firas Assaad

6:50 PM

Foo<5>()

Ricket

but... you can't put a variable there...

Simon

template<class T>, template<typename T>, template<int i> etc.

If it's a static int, sure you can.

Firas Assaad

you can

Ricket

oh, huh.

Simon

You can't do void myfun() { int test = 7; Foo<test>(); }

But you can do void myfun() { Foo<7>(); }

Ricket

6:52 PM

Gotcha, I've gotten too used to Java where it doesn't require classification of what T is (class,typename,int)

Firas Assaad

Take the standard library bitset for example, you declare one like: bitset<5> x;

lathomas64

hooray I can chat now, hello everyone

Ricket

Howdy!

Simon

Welcome Lathomas64 :)

Firas Assaad

I miss RAII and the destructor, in my Java code I have lots of memory pools and fixed size arrays

In fact I'd argue I worry about such low level stuff more than I would in C++

because in C++ the destructor can take care of that for me

but in Java I have to explicitly manage it because it's not part of the language per se

in C++ you can have a placement new that specifies where its placing the object, you can redefine new to use your own allocation structure, etc.

In Java it's all very explicit

Simon

6:55 PM

Agreed Firas Assaad.

Firas Assaad

In Java I'm fighting the GC all the time, I don't want it to run except between levels and such

Ricket

The closest to in-place memory-loading would probably be download.oracle.com/javase/6/docs/api/java/io/… but even that is an abstraction higher, requiring a Serializable class having already been written by ObjectOuputStream

Firas Assaad

in C++ it's easier to write code without worrying about that

Ricket

(why in the world did Oracle put javadocs in "DOWNLOAD.oracle.com" if there's nothing to download... stupid...)

Firas Assaad

:)

lathomas64

6:56 PM

can't you tell java to run GC less often

then explicitly call it when needed?

Firas Assaad

Can I?

Simon

@lathomas64: Doesn't that depend on your VM?

Ricket

There are some command-line GC control arguments but they are mostly being deprecated and I don't think they've ever worked well

Simon

@Ricket: Ah. Yeah... I use my system for creating data with python(and c# in the future) and then load it into c++.

Ricket

There is also System.gc() which you might want to call while loading a level but it's not guaranteed to do anything, it's pure voodoo

lathomas64

6:57 PM

I believe so I was looking into garbage collection stuff for work the other day. Trying to find it again

Firas Assaad

I call that between levels

I actually still have gc calls happening

from Android code

But it's not that bad now

Ricket

Simon: I've parsed raw file output from C++ before (the ms3d file format) but I have to do it manually one variable at a time, not just suck the file into memory and cast it into a class/struct like C++ lets you do

Simon

@Ricket: Yeah, way too slow unfortunately :(

Ricket

That's pretty typical of Java vs C++ though I think, Java seems to tend towards more verbosity...

Simon

@Ricket: (trying to stream a lot of data while keeping 60 fps).

Firas Assaad

7:02 PM

Actually I think I'm a bit harsh on Java, I'm just used to C++ way of thinking and most of the Java/C# work wasn't real time so I got spoiled by GC and all the abstractions

and then you have to think differently and use Java in a more primitive way. Right now I have the game running smoothly at 60 fps

On the other hand I'm making a 2D simple phone game. Can you see someone programming for PS3 using Java?

Simon

That would be quite ineffective... can't fit a java vm onto any spurs :)

Well, none that I know of anyway.

Firas Assaad

At least C# has structs which are value types, Java doesn't.. I have to garbage collect Rects

Tetrad

I really like C#

Firas Assaad

I also miss delegates, inner classes are weird

and lambdas... and linq... I miss C#

Ricket

:80009 What do you think is the difference between C++ class and struct?

Firas Assaad

7:08 PM

@Ricket: private vs. public, I know. But in C++ either of them can be on the stack or on the heap

Ricket

lol just making sure, you made it sound like structs are special :-\

Firas Assaad

In Java you only have reference. Only simple types like int and float are value types

Well, in C# Structs are special

Ricket

ah gotcha

C# has some advantages over java for sure

Firas Assaad

They are quicker to embrace changes

When in Java 7 coming out?

Ricket

No idea

Firas Assaad

7:11 PM

It

's supposed to have closures

Simon

Closures are nice but oh so scary.

Firas Assaad

@Simon: How so?

Ricket

Ehehe don't rely on the post bot to inform you of new questions via the chatroom :)

Simon

@FirasAssaad: Well, you don't know what it does! Or how long it takes. It might even crash.

Firas Assaad

@Rickets: I generally remove entities by flagging them and moving them one one step at a time to the end of the pool. Then I purge flagged objects at the end of the pool every now and then

Ricket

7:18 PM

not Rickets, i'm not a disease, i'm a modification of the nickname Ricky :-D

Firas Assaad

Sorry :D

Ricket

hm i suppose rickets isn't actually a disease, more of a "condition"

i do not have it, in case you were wondering :-P

Firas Assaad

In IRC you just enter Rick[tab] and it completes it for you

Ricket

Yea these little tiny buttons when you hover over the far right of a sentence aren't exactly friendly

especially on my netbook, with its tiny screen and crappy touchpad

Noctrine

:80109 What's wrong with the post bot?

Firas Assaad

7:20 PM

Ever played Theme Hospital? That game had the coolest "conditions"

Bloaty Head, Slack Tongue Syndrome, TV Personality

Ricket

:80149 nothing directly wrong with it, it's just a minute or two behind sometimes

:80149 i'd already answered the question and edited my answer twice before it got around to posting the question in here

Noctrine

Ah

lathomas64

the chat is still beta though right?

Firas Assaad

Do you think that the number of questions on the site is a bit low compared to the number of users?

sagg.column80.com/flot.php

Ricket

:80188 I assume so. Everything nowadays is in beta. What ever happened to someone finishing something before releasing it? :(

Noctrine

7:25 PM

@Firas Yes, and we don't have anything in the little SE dropdown.

Firas Assaad

@Noctrine: What SE dropdown?

Also:
committed users
566 users committed
57.1% signed up for beta
9% fulfilled commitment

It's a bit less than other sites

Probably because most commits were invites and people just committed without really meaning it?

Noctrine

The aggregate data pulled from StackExchange.com

Click the "Stack Exchange" Icon in the upper righthand corner

Firas Assaad

Oh, yeah I noticed. We get one or two questions

Noctrine

I've been trying to pull people in, got a dude from Procedural to post

lathomas64

I'll try and ramp up my question asking then I guess

Noctrine

7:27 PM

I hope Jeff allows Tag Sponsorship. If we can get some of the engine communities behind us that would be a major boon

I want to ask questions, but I haven't had any actual... questions.

Everything that is bothering me right now, is mostly a "I wonder if this would be good" type of thing.

lathomas64

I found out about the whole SE thing from unity's stack exchange site

Firas Assaad

You also got to be careful where you ask. You don't want to become the support forum for a particular engine

Simon

Anyone happen to have any experiences of implementing a lock free pool?

Firas Assaad

Or you can be that, but at the same time you wouldn't want to give people who are using something else that first impression

Noctrine

IMO I don't see being the support forum for EVERY Engine to be bad though

Tetrad

7:32 PM

as long as the signal/noise ratio isn't too high

Noctrine

For example, SO is the psuedo official support network of Android

Doesn't really hurt it

Firas Assaad

Yeah, but SO is huge

Tetrad

like if all the unityanswers guys came to gamedev.se, I wouldn't like that at all

Simon

Isn't gamedev.se forum level quite low though?

Firas Assaad

On the other hand SO is heavily microsoft-centric in a way

Noctrine

7:33 PM

It has everything to do with the speed at which we scale I guess.

Firas Assaad

For a moment I thought you were talking about a Swedish gamedev site

Noctrine

lol

Firas Assaad

gamedev.se :D

Noctrine

I used to do that, one of the domain proposals for gaming was gaming.se

Firas Assaad

ga.me

Simon

7:34 PM

Firas Assaad: I was.

Firas Assaad

Oh, there is a gamedev.se

Simon

Aye :)

Firas Assaad

Seemed that Tetrad meant stackexchange by se though

Simon

ooh

Noctrine

That's what I mean when I say it

Until BeyondPolygons becomes official :p

Don't think I want to call it BP though, negative connotation and all :p

Tetrad

7:36 PM

speak for yourself I'm a bp shareholder ok

Firas Assaad

Billionaire Polluter to quote Richard Stallman

But he also calls iPhone and iPad iGroan and iBad

Noctrine

But yeah, I think gaining that 'critical mass' atleast for our community would require getting another community involved.

Firas Assaad

How many users are there on gamedev.sx

Noctrine

Last I checked 1500ish

Ricket

1,657

Noctrine

7:41 PM

Ooo, we got more.

Ricket

it's in the bright yellow box on the right side of the homepage :-D

Firas Assaad

around 550 have 1 rep

Noctrine

When I sent the message to the CityEngine people we only had slightly over 1500

Firas Assaad

starting here gamedev.stackexchange.com/users?page=31

Noctrine

Well, atleast they helped us get here

Firas Assaad

7:44 PM

Well you can get people from a modding community

or tigsource

igda forums

gamedev.net wanted a stackexchange-like site at one point

Noctrine

While there are some epic people on the GDNet forums

The bulk...

Firas Assaad

That's true, you still want to attract experts in certain fields

Noctrine

IGDA would be awesome, I mentioned that in the meta thread. But not being a member, I have no idea how to connect with them.

lathomas64

what about talking to local GDAs?

Firas Assaad

Let's get all the gamedev.se people aboard so they'd close their site and Simon wouldn't get confused anymore

Noctrine

7:52 PM

I sent out a message to the Local IGDA. Haven't heard anything

Firas Assaad

make an official facebook page for the site and have people be fans of it or whatever

Then their friends would see them joining that and become curious (if they are also game developers)

also linkedin, twitter, etc.

Tetrad

you guys following the quakecon keynote?

kotaku.com/5611429/…

Noctrine

@Firas That is a good idea

Firas Assaad

Maybe they'll announce a date for open sourcing id Tech 4

Ricket

3

Q: DirectX Overlay

I have been a code in full convertion mods for the source engine, but now im mostly coding C# applications. That provide utilties for games, during this proccess i have often wanted the ability to do a overlay that shows ingame. During my research i found out it seems i would need one "hook" for...

c# directx

I beat the bot :-P

Firas Assaad

8:04 PM

You should be the new bot

Ricket

I should!

Or they should use the Observer pattern for instant updating :-D

Firas Assaad

:D

Do it for the next 10 questions and you might shame the Game Dev bot into updating more often

Ricket

hah, i wish

Firas Assaad

Rage on iPhone looks impressive

kotaku.com/5611523/id-unleashes-rage-on-the-iphone

lathomas64

8:19 PM

or just make your own bot?

Ricket

this isn't a standard chat protocol, that wouldn't be worth the trouble

i have my own bot, it notifies me of new entries. it just doesn't post in here. :-P

lathomas64

ah

Ricket

i'm actually using feednotifier.com

lathomas64

thats a cool little application

Ricket

I agree, it seems to work well. It crashes when I shut down my computer but that's the only issue I have (and it really doesn't matter, i'm shutting down anyway)

Once the site becomes popular I'll probably stop monitoring and resort to just monitoring tags and occasionally refreshing the homepage but for now, we're at a rate of just a few questions per day and the notifier keeps me on top of things :)

Poll! dell.com/us/en/business/notebooks/precision-m6500/… or dell.com/us/en/home/notebooks/laptop-alienware-m17x/… ?

Comparison spreadsheet: spreadsheets.google.com/…

I'm so torn between them :-\

lathomas64

8:31 PM

Can't say, a bit biased against dell

Firas Assaad

why would you be torned

one got an evil clown popping out of a monitor

Ricket

:80828 well you can see the other two options on the spreadsheet... any other alternatives you know of?

:80831 lol, if you see my comparison sheet... the alienware is 4 lbs heavier than the M6500

Firas Assaad

Clown zombie!!! Who cares about specs

Ricket

currently i carry my 8.2 lb E1705 in a backpack, i'm thinking 12 lbs is a little too heavy to carry on my back :-\

Firas Assaad

I had heavy laptops.. not fun

Ricket

8:33 PM

otherwise the alienware is amazing! I mean, it's a great price for i7, 2 ATI cards in SLI, 5.1 speakers built in, 1920x1200... but i wish it weight 8 or 9 lbs, not 12!!

Firas Assaad

yeah that's heavy

lathomas64

woah indesctructable?

Ricket

lol no, i just mean Lenovos are built really well

i'm biased though, currently in an IBM internship

lathomas64

maybe you can get a deal out of it then?

Ricket

Well... I'd really have to consider that keyboard though

Having used a keyboard with the Fn key in the corner all summer, it still bugs me