You know what pisses me off? When people are like "I think my firmware is compromised" or "I think my BIOS has a virus".

I have not once seen anyone actually give any evidence for this. Nothing like "In order to verify my suspicions, I used this tool to dump the firmware of my USB controller and compared it to the image available on the vendor site. And as you can see, on offset 0x16F0, the next 32 bytes differ from each other."

It's always bullshit like "I once heard my computer beep during boot up" or "My PC got a bluescreen once and then took long to boot"

Who wants to bet that this guy thought he could track his girlfriend with her bluetooth headphones?

@MechMK1 it's pretty ridiculous how often we get questions like that. Normally I chalk such things up to human nature. It actually kinda sounds like a variation on the Dunning-Kruger effect. Some people know just enough about computers to know that BIOS and malware are things, not enough to realize the combination of the two is very unlikely, and not enough to realize they are not well informed

Although it's kinda obnoxious how those always seem to be the most stubborn questioners. You will never convince someone that there isn't an evil Mastermind out there that is personally destroying their lives..

@ConorMancone To me, those people are just fueled by paranoia. They think they're watched by the FBI, the CIA, the NSA, the FDA, the FTC, the NBA, the ATF, etc...

Come to think of it maybe there is quite a bit of paranoia mixed in there.... Reminds me of a terrible 'Bones' episode where a serial killer carved a pattern on some bones that turned into a virus when scanned by the good guys' fancy computer system and set the whole thing on fire. Other than the utter ridiculousness that it was, all I could think was "You forgot to use prepared queries, didn't you?"

@MechMK1 except that's not if! I'm pretty sure that, 90% of the time, they have a specific person in mind that they personally know that is doing this to them for revenge reasons, and who is a generally a "tech" person. I don't think they ever suspect a 3 letter organization

> tfw you will never kill someone, only to etch '); DROP TABLE DATA; -- as a QR code into their bones.

@ConorMancone Possible, yeah. I'm mostly surrounded by tech-literate people, to the point where even my mom knows how TLS works :D

Next time one shows up I might even ask. I bet they have a specific person in mind who is causing their woes

Man, human psychology is really unique.

We spoke a bit about biases yesterday too, but then I had to leave

Wikipedia has a list of cognitive biases. It is hundreds of entries long. That fact alone explains all of human history :)

en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_cognitive_biases

So now you have me stuck on Bones. It is one of my wife's favorite TV shows so we own all of it and I've watched it all a couple times. It isn't my favorite TV show. As a "police" show they take the whole "Can you enhance that picture?" thing and crank it up to 12. Drives me crazy. But they also have multiple cases of the super smart evil tech guy that can hack literally everything. Also drives me crazy

You have to always keep in mind that "Hacking the Database" is just a plot device to drive the plot forward.

I wonder if stuff like that contributes to questions like these. That's probably a bit of a stretch but the stereotypical hacker who can hack everything shows up in a lot of TV shows and movies. I wonder if that contributes to a general misunderstanding of what someone can realistically expect their "techy" ex boyfriend can do after a breakup...

@MechMK1 indeed. Most episodes are okay, but sometimes I just can't :)

@ConorMancone It absolutely does. The portrayal of information security as basically what Neo does in The Matrix does not help.

It's the same with torture: It works on TV, so it must work in real life.

Because those who know something usually say what they know right at the beginning, and just repeat over and over what they know. And those who know nothing will keep saying that they know nothing, until they invent some made-up bullshit that eats time and ressources.

Videogames employ that trope as well for shock value, and claim it should show how "morally corrupt" a character has become, but in the end it leads to the exact result that the character has hoped for - thus involuntarily (or purposefully?) making the message that torture just works, even if it's wrong.

I never watched 24 and now I'm glad I didn't :)

Yeah, it's shit. Imagine a movie though where "special forces" capture some terrorist and torture him for information about where an attack is supposed to happen. He knows nothing, and they keep torturing him until he makes up some bullshit, which they believe. What happens as a result? They all move there, wreak havoc and identify an innocent man as terrorist, and killing him.

Do you think there is anyone here who is capable of deploying malicious firmware on someone's computer with reasonable resource availability? I'm pretty sure the answer is "no" and that such things are really only the work of nation-state actors, but I'm not 100%

@ConorMancone That honestly depends on how the firmware is written. It's entirely possible, but I have absolutely no experience with firmware in that way

@MechMK1 no one would make that movie. Too realistic

@ConorMancone It's not the realism that's the issue. The issue is that it sends the wrong message

Nobody wants to see a movie or a TV episode in which "our guys" do something morally reprehensible. We want to see that "our guys" are the good guys, who risk their health and lives to do the right thing.

Yeah, that too :) My favorite movie still is and will always be Arlington Road

Which is actually a pretty good indicator for in-group bias and confirmation bias. We identify with "our troops", and if they are shown to be "bad people", we extend that message to us individually.

Ironically, my favourite movie is The Matrix (1999)

@MechMK1 I hadn't heard that story before. Ouch :( shit like that is so sad

Yes, it shows how we can be biased

The Belief Bias, for instance

Reminds me of this story from my side of the Atlantic

cnn.com/2014/10/07/us/…

WTF

"Our Biases" should be a required subject in our schooling (not that it would help much). I like to think that I'm a reasonable, rational person, but the reality is that my brain wasn't built to operate that way, even though my brain was built to think that it operates that way. Sometimes that realization helps me to be a slightly better person. Not often though.

I mean, it is still an unfortunate incident, but I can't really see a way that it could have been avoided

@ConorMancone I personally like to explain biases this way:

Our brain has limited capabilities. In order to make sense of the lots of information we get every moment, our brain developed lots of optimizations and shortcuts. While these work well and are essential for our cognitive function, they also introduced certain side effects, which we like to label biases.

For example, the Anthromorphism Bias happens due to the fact that we mostly interact with other humans on a day-to-day basis, so we tend to give human-like traits to other things. It's a side effect of this specific optimization

A favourite of mine is the Verbatim effect: We tend to remember the "idea" of what somebody told us, rather than the verbatim wording. This is again due to the optimization that we tend to communicate on levels of semantics and pragmatics, than on a word-for-word basis

Man, The Loop is the next big dumpster fire...

@MechMK1 that's a good thing

@JourneymanGeek So people stop talking about Monica, the new CoC, the lack of moderators, etc...?

eh, no

If it fails - it means the new normal isn't working

There's a reason we're trying to keep meta going despite all this

@JourneymanGeek Well, it depends. For SE, Inc. it may be working very well. They get data, regardless of how meaningful it is, and it makes them happy.

@MechMK1 I'm not too sure

the way it happened was... strange

If I were cynical, I would state that disgruntling veteran users is the use-case for the Loop.

In fact, that's exactly what I am saying.

ANd yet

the first survey was... amazingly blotched

I see Sara commenting on meta

So ironically

the primary means of feedback for the loop is... meta

I already put my thoughts on the loop on meta

I believe the point of the Loop is to enable SE, Inc. to be in complete control over "community management". Every kind of democratic process must be eliminated and replaced with a centralized process controlled by SE, Inc.

@MechMK1 eh, more that its cheaper than hiring more CMs

which is what I was hoping they would do

Aren't CMs volunteers?

nope

CMs are employees

moderators are volunteers

Ah, I thought CM == community moderator == moderator

eh no

practically there's actually a few different teams of community management folks - but essentially there's ~6 + 2 people dealing with all of us

As far as I am aware, CM stands for Community Manager

yup

So basically the part of Stack Exchange, Inc. that is supposed to communicate with the communicate, and be the community's voice in SE, Inc.

Somehow, I feel like they fail at one of those two tasks.

@MechMK1 team's too small, and underappreciated IMO

I'd say that they and a handful of the public Q&A dev team actually "get" communication

@JourneymanGeek Underappreciated from the community, or from SE, Inc?

I'd say both

I can only add my two cents: I think that some of the CMs inject their personal beliefs into their actions as CM. I personally have a rule that I would never let my personal beliefs affect my professional work.

@MechMK1 which one?

@JourneymanGeek I would not like to name any names

You identified that individual rather quickly from my description.

It makes me believe that that description isn't that undounded then

;)

NOW LET ME GO HIDE THE EVIDENCE

Yeah but when someone else has ... all the cards

sometimes you need to not play poker.

problem is everyone seems intent on playing their game and walking right into it, when they need to subvert expectations

If meta being toxic is what they want, help work make meta constructive.

But drama is so tempting.

In my free time, I can advocate for anything I believe. But on the clock, I do precisely my job and nothing more.

@MechMK1 injecting your personal feelings can be fine

but there's empathy and follow up

I haven't seen any real positive affect for the folks these initiatives are meant to protect.

Quite the opposite.

Yes, the entire Code of Conflict^H^H^H^H^Hduct situation was a disaster.

Many problems identified by the community were either not thought of before or handwaved away with "The mods will fix it"

@MechMK1 shock and awe.... dosen't work

and the mods are not going to fix it

I'm interested to see how Monica's lawsuit goes, not that I expect to find out anything for quite a while...

I hope she wins tbh

@ConorMancone Probably with a written apology on all stack exchange sites in the form of a banner

I'm pretty sure she hasn't officially filed yet, but I remember thinking "You know, she probably has a good basis for one". Then I read one of her more recent posts and realized that she is already well on her way to starting one

Can someone tl/dr this loop thing for me? I've read about it (including the meta post) but apparently I'm slow today...

It should ever have come to it

May I?

Almost makes me regret using my real name here...

@MechMK1 sure.

especially since my name is very unique and google-able

I'd like to see a different view from mine first ;)

Let's hear it!

"The Loop" was the next genius invention of Stack Exchange, Inc. in order to "receive more structured feedback from the community".

The reason for this, according to Ms. Chipps, was that Meta was "problematic"

Apparently, problems were "not heard" and discussion was often had without any "clear answer"

As a result, SE, Inc. created - I kid you not - a surveymonkey survey, where they asked what you liked best about Stack Overflow, and what made you the most frustrated.

And I used the term "Stack Overflow" instead of "Stack Exchange" here, because it was very clear that the survey was aimed at developers, including questions such as "How long have you been a developer?" and such.

Don't forget the bit about where they forgot black people existed.

or bunched together all "south asians"

The survey drew further ire by requiring information about your age, sex and race.

Racial background was especially problematic, as they just threw a ton of groups into one basket, and forgot black people existed for a second.

My personal opinion is that "the Loop" is supposed to replace Meta, bit by bit. Not in the sense that Meta will disappear, but that staff has an excuse to just completely ignore it.

Wait, in what way did they forget that black people existed?

@ConorMancone You had to check a box which race you identified as. There was no box for black people.

That sounds like the rare triple face palm...

No "black", no "of African descent", etc...

@elactic Hey there!

@MechMK1 the irony is people gave feedback on the loop... through meta

Ouch. Oh yeah, that question was received badly anyway, right? I think I saw something about that on Meta. Seems the rest of the world doesn't concern themselves with ethnic background quite the same way as the US?

@ConorMancone not really no

@ConorMancone Cynics among us might claim that SE is trying to filter out opinions of people with the "wrong" ethnicity - whatever that may mean.

My take is tht ssentially an idea of getting feedback from a "broader community" than meta through focus groups and such. Since they don't want to invest in the community they have, they redefined what the community is.

@MechMK1 I wish someone had angry tweeted this

and @tted the folks responsible

The USA is very different in that regard, at least compared to the other countries I visited. I distinctly remember being in Peru and Japan and being the only Caucasian person there with the exception of the people I was travelling with

@JourneymanGeek You know, the funny thing is that you can use this exact statement and make it sound either far-left or far-right.

@MechMK1 oh man

That definition of politics is also very western

In this case though I think we can guess which side they would be trying to ignore...

@JourneymanGeek I live east of Greenwich

@ConorMancone No no, they would never use such bad words as "ignore" or "censor". It's much better to use euphemisms such as "We're trying to give minorities a louder voice"

I'm more classic conservative in many things (small government for example) and liberal (when it comes to gender/sexuality... in the "its not for me to judge")

@JourneymanGeek I am...well, that's hard to say

I've been labeled a lot of things

but when it comes to SE

I'm human beings first

so I don't mind the ideas behind the current pronoun thing - but not the execution

@JourneymanGeek I'm actually of the belief that the person behind the screen should not matter at all

@MechMK1 I think they matter

but as people, not as tokens

I think it's about the knowledge, about the question being asked. Who you are is only relevant in some specific contexts

Such as "I feel like my boss is discriminating against me because I am gay. What should I do?"

Only that I deal with more than Q&A or statistics as a mod

I dal with people

But if we apply the SE, Inc. filter for a second and just focus on Stack Overflow: Who you are does not matter to a computer

@JourneymanGeek Yes, i understand that, but the previous CoC "Be Nice" worked well enough in this regard

We didn't need to codify what it means to be nice. It's a "I recognize it when I see it" thing.

sadly?

Rules lawyers.

Trying to codify everything will just create loopholes, which people will aim to exploit. "Well, technically it wasn't rude or abusive, because none of the 512 paragraphs mention this specific behaviour"

or folks going "I have no idea why I wasn't nice. I need to repeat it so you can point it out"

@JourneymanGeek I would assume good faith, if someone asks

@MechMK1 I try to

but my faith has been tested a lot lately

For example, many people who linked to LMGTFY didn't do that to be rude

At least, I never did. I thought that it would help them

@MechMK1 so we explain why, add technical controls...

and...

that's somewhere meta shines

well shone

in better days

Yes, absolutely. One day, someone linked to a discussion in meta that LMGTFY links should be considered rude.

I still tell people to google stuff, but I do it in a more respectful and supportive manner

MEta is two way communications.

Yes, and "the Loop" is not.

yup

And I think that SE, Inc. considers this a feature, not a bug.

People within it do.

that's a critical distinction

I am aware that SE, Inc. is not a sentient entity. When I say "SE, Inc. thinks", I of course refer to those within a position to make relevant decisions

yup

but realising its not a monolitic entity is useful in working out who to work with, and who to undermine.

I understand you fully

A seemingly completely unrelated topic: How bad is it when the OAuth consumer_secret and access_token_secret of an application leak?

github.com/SaraJo/twitter-ring

Because I believe somebody didn't really follow the account security guidelines

So what do you think @MechMK1? It seems like your question about identifying safe applications to give sudo to got a few well-thought out answers. Did you have a favorite?

@ConorMancone "Look at each binary explicitly" is my favourite

Which one is that?

I'll have to see

I just noticed that schroder deleted the question from John Zhau. That seems unusual - normally answers don't get deleted if they at least try to answer the question. Although I think John definitely missed the mark...

Which one?

The how to keep yourself safe?

security.stackexchange.com/a/221969/149676

It says why it is deleted at the bottom. More often then not when it is an answer with downvotes, it will say "deleted by owner" or something like that. This time it is "deleted by schroder"

Yeah, I guess he is a little fed up with John

But to be honest, it didn't answer the question at all

I'm pretty sure schroeder is a bit tired of him, but I also don't think schroeder's complaints are at all invalid. I also have a long standing suspicion that schroeder is intentionally careful about not abusing his mod powers. The only time I see schroeder outright close questions is when they are flagrantly off-topic. However, I've often seen cases where schroeder edits/comments on a question, someone else flags it as off-topic, and then schroeder closes it.

I've always suspected this is his way of making sure he's not just single-handedly closing questions. I've seen him do that with a couple of John's questions.

There was one or two recent ones when I saw the question, schroeder had commented, I voted to close, and then he closed it after me.

I respect that

Yes, I respect schroeder's actions as well

In this case, I also think it's justified

It happened to me as well, when I claimed a question didn't belong here, I voted to migrate it and minutes later he migrated it

brb

re

Help

XML syntax help

I think you're going to have to be more specific...

Yeah sorry room was empty

my exporting method is unconventional and I absolutely need to add a separator to insert ID values

separator can be space though

If in doubt, run it through xmlvalidation.com

Monica.