git.kernel.org/pub/scm/linux/kernel/git/torvalds/linux.git/…

Is this a fucking joke?

So tl;dr Torvalds is going on a journey to find himself, and Linux is getting a ridiculous code of conduct that literally specifies not to discriminate based on body size, of all things. I mean really, when was the last time a dev has said "sorry, but you're too fat to contribute to the kernel"? Is that really something we have to take care of? And yet discriminating based on amount of experience (the only thing we should discriminate based on!) is also disallowed. What a world we live in...

Kernel devs are all dicks, so either no one will listen to this retarded CoC, or all the devs who actually know what they're talking about will get kicked out for a few idiots who don't understand how kernel dev is different from making a GUI in C# but who are included because of some silly outreach program.

@forest or something literally happened that made Torvalds decide that, well management by ... I can't remember what that word was... some finnish thing dosen't work any more.

ah management by perkalele

@JourneymanGeek Eh, it has worked, and it still works.

heh

That's just a curse in Finnish.

@forest it means something specific ;)

:P

I think it was originally the name of the native god, before a bunch of Christians came to the place and convinced everyone that they're a sinner and that their god is actually the devil, so now it means devil.

Regardless, it's more the issue that a project run so well (for a large FOSS project) has to get a CoC that specifies such ridiculous things and even polices what people do on their own time using their own platforms, rather than just what goes on on the mailing lists, etc. Even worse considering the fact that the old CoC was so good (basically telling people not to be a dick).

arstechnica.com/information-technology/2013/07/… (linus showing a middle finger in article. In case you're at work)

@forest Its worth noting linus' second in command (iirc) wrote it.

@JourneymanGeek Well given that Linus is taking a break, they had the chance and they took it. Let's hope it won't become a battle cry for people to remove anyone rude from the project at the expense of actual quality.

@forest apparently telling people not to be a dick dosen't work

@forest or the two things are related.

@JourneymanGeek Telling them to be a dick in more words won't work either. :P

Maybe.

Especially when you have to now police what people say on their own time, on their personal social media accounts, etc. I mean if GregKH says something objectionable on his own twitter, he can now be fired (or at least, reprimanded for violating the CoC).

Well, in a sense, you do represent the project

Just by existing? I mean, you represent it in official media.

If I said something terrible on twitter, I'm sure someone on SE's team will have a polite word with me at least.

But your own conversations in private or with your own friends?

Yeah, because now SE has a silly CoC as well :P

Oh, always

though a lot of folks are people I consider friends

so a good chunk of it might go

"Dude, what the hell?"

The thing is, what you say on your own time, off the job, should never, ever cause problems with your job. I mean, if you say something bad about your boss, that makes sense, but if it's totally unrelated to your job?

The mere idea that people are looking to be the moral police and get people fired for what they say with their own friends, not as a representative for their company, makes me sick. Now, I don't try to get said people fired for what they do on their free time!

Well, that's a different problem

Something like what happened to... whats his name...

Quite a few people?

I could name 10 (or at least, I could describe 10. I suck at names).

James Gunn specifically

people dug up stuff he said years ago and got him fired

Yeah, that kind of thing happens all the time. A few years ago, the creator of JavaScript and CEO of Mozilla was kicked out because a leaked list showed that he donated to some non-profit that people disagreed with.

I mean really, no matter how silly his views are, he can legally vote for and donate to who he wants, and that should have no effect on his job.

On the other hand, I think personally realising you're a git and taking time to... be less of a git is really something worth doing sometimes

Was that Brendan Eich?

@Arminius Yeah.

@JourneymanGeek Sure, and I'm not totally against Linus taking a break (he is rather anti-security, so let's see if things improve while he's gone).

Oh thank god, I re-read the CoC and seems they changed it a bit to make it less... draconian. It only applies to public spaces when explicitly representing the project. Well, that's a lot better than most CoCs!

Still a little silly that they say you can't discriminate based on level of experience...

@forest well - that's common sense

Not so common when you look at some other projects' CoCs!

and one nice thing about linus is, the dude's both really really common sensical and pretty pragmatic

True.

FWIW, the CoC is an adaption of the Contributor Covenant which lots of large projects have adopted

Probably the most ridiculous CoC I've ever seen explicitly said that, on IRC, you can't "virtually assault" someone by saying *hugs* without asking permission!

@Arminius Yes I know. That "covenant" is one of the crazier ones out there.

At least that sort of explains why it's so verbose

Yep. The previous one was much better.

But I'm also wondering if that makes it less effektive

Yes, it does. In fact, it also makes it easier to abuse.

It's got a ToS feel to it, a legal document that everyone signs and moves on

Yeah, and unlike a ToS, there is no lawyer to review it or proper legal process to make sure that violations are actually real violations.

The worst ones in the most... puritan projects actually require that you sign it with your PGP key so they can more easily force you out of the project later.

OK, even more important...

Please downvote this crap.

Nearly every other site's meta with this post has it downvoted to hell.

And Jesus Christ, an underline over every hyperlink? Is this the 90s?

How the fuck is this supposed to improve readability?

And uh... how do I turn it off once I enable it?

You really thought you could just untick it, did you? :-)

@Arminius Please tell me that's just a bug...

> Note, while turning it on is immediate, it will take a few minutes to revert to the old view - but it will go through!.

Oh good

Heh

> You can uncheck the box to revert to the older theme until the site is live for everyone

Yeah, fuck them.

@Arminius It... it does go through, right?

Didn't do it for me just yet

huh

Well, they're destroying their own site. I mean underlined hyperlinks, really?

What braindead moron came up with that idea? In 2018, no less!

Hmm it's consistent with them disallowing underlined text everywhere

<u></u> is blacklisted

Hah

Well you can still underline with unicode.

Being community manager at SE must be an ungrateful role

Their claim is that it's better for people with screen readers, but how fucking dumb do they think we are? Do they really think that we don't realize that screen readers are incapable of automatically detecting links?

So for that fraction of a fraction of a fraction of percent of users, they'll destroy readability for everyone?

@Arminius It's a role that lead me to hate that ******* ****.

Also I'm totally OCD and this will make my answers no longer align anymore. :(

I wonder why there aren't many alternative clients for SE

The API is public after all

There are userscripts, which a lot more people are using.

But it's not like 4chan where virtually everyone is using them.

So there's no unity.

Well, unless you count the fact that every site is fucking identical to every other site now, so that's kind of unity. Even the Borg had different personalities!

"Our site is a little bit different from the others" is the biggest joke of all.

No, it's not a little different. It is identical.

I don't particularly like it either, but I think it could have been worse

I don't like how much horizontal space it takes with some viewports

It's worse for other sites, like Worldbuilding.

Yep, same. It really... crunches the site up on thin screens.

Also I think the new header looks cheap

So much for responsiveness.

Well, you know it was only made so that SE could migrate over to its primary income being from Teams. We're just the public face of SE.

@Arminius well, especially now since the official mobile clients are on hold

Ouch

But please, just downvote security.meta.stackexchange.com/q/3065/165253

On hold?

We need to add our voice to the statistics.

Even if it's only to show to others how bad the community hates it.

@forest rather than downvotes - actually pointing out where it dosen't work seems to work

we got our theme redone cause the original was utter and complete junk

@JourneymanGeek Seems to work, heh. Glad to see some people have a sense of humor.

@forest I mean, ours was bad enough I was ranting

Ah yes, we got it redone, back when "our theme" could actually be changed!

I've only ranted twice on meta in my entire time here.

Now it's being "unified". Resistance is futile.

@forest its still in beta, ours is still the 'new/reponsive' theme

Your website's cultural and technological distinctiveness will be added to our own.

but we maintained most of our old theme

@JourneymanGeek I wasn't here for the old theme.

@forest looks mostly the same. The original new theme never happened cause we saw the mockup and noped the heck at them

Good thing it happened back then, otherwise they would have thanked you profusely for your valuable feedback and rolled it out anyway! :P

Mockups were on meta ;)

shoulda been a post on your meta too

Did anything in particular happen that caused SE to stop taking feedback seriously since then? A new major shareholder or something? Or is it really all Teams?

@forest nothing - I think actually things are better than they've been a while

O_o

I have a few entirely baseless theories but...

cause the focus on careers and only so was far worse

I didn't find that an issue at all, since it was mostly limited to SO.

Back when SO was actually distinct and didn't have an identical theme to us.

That's the main thing that bothers me

Especially about shit like how difficult it is to maintain custom icons (bullshit, considering the fact that the same image resource for the header is used for the icons).

@Arminius Show that with a downvote.

And yes I agree, it is... so narrow. That's particularly bad for thin screens or thin windows (e.g. tiling window managers).

But Jesus, even Japanese image boards and text boards look better!

And they are not much more sophisticated than an old Telnet BBS!

At least they don't underline every link...

you know what I hate about it? nothing.

you know what I like about it? nothing.

it's just kinda 'meh'.

(well, the blue and red stripes in the top right corner look kinda weird, but that's pretty much it)

@Anders highfive

maybe someone looked something up regarding a specific topic and found some of your answers

happens sometimes

@Joshua.J then the serial voting gets reversed and....

@Joshua.J sometimes when folks vote for other folks all at once...

they can get auto-reversed

Happens to me every often elsewhere

(but its SU, and eh, there's not really any major milestone for me there till 250k 0_0 )

What's new with the new theme?

It looks the same to me!

(except the header)

(and the left nav)

basically those

twitter.com/Techhelplistcom/status/1042254142130073600?s=19

^ proof that CEH is cr*p

@BenoitEsnard yeah, I really don't get what's all the fuzz about either

@HamZa well, at least you know which one you are supposed to pick

sometimes you have these question screwups where there are multiple bad options to pick from and you have no idea what they want

@TomK. like pick none? :_)

you know what I mean

yeah

the problem is, like i've seen a LOT of "how to start your pentesting career" guides that endorse CEH as a first step to do

yeah..

it's just a question of philosophy I guess. "learn what you can get" or "learn the right thing"

well, that's kinda harsh I guess

@TomK. well who knows, maybe they have soooo many candidates that they can do this

@HamZa yeah, sure :P

What is the best pentest certification, in your opinion?

Speaking about certs, it's official, I'm going to the offensive con advanced android exploitation training! @TomK.

I'm not sure if i should "push" further and ask if they could pay the conference for me...

"you know.. I'm there anyway.. so why not also go to conference? and it's only 450€ more. you already paid 3k € so that doesn't make that big of a difference."

Thanks for your opinions! :) I will definitively go for OSCP once I'll be confident in my knowledge. :D

+1 for OSCP

it's what is most common in respectable job listings from what I've seen so far

although CISSP seems very popular as well iirc

@TomK. right, I guess i will send an email

that sounds about right, yes

Which certifications do you have, if any?

I just realized that I'm the only one not working in IT security here. :o

I have only non-security related certs

ITIL foundation, project management and requirements engineering

I think M'vy works in academia, not 100% sure though

@BenoitEsnard none \o/

@Joshua.J You're working in networking right?

I imagined you were doing security-related stuff when installing & configuring network materials. :o

well, aren't you then also doing security related stuff, when sanitizing inputs while web-deving? :P

@TomK. Well, in web development, security is just "not doing stupid stuff". :P

^ me 5 years ago :O

what a story sheds a tear

love the name btw

DzCyberDeV

@BenoitEsnard isn't that the same in all fields of infosec? :>

Well, I guess so.

My IP address has been banned from Root-Me. :/

I guess that nmap scan wasn't the intended solution.

whoops

they are kinda afraid of getting D/DoSed

@Joshua.J Yeah, it surprised me too. :(

they should probably state somewhere "please don't run automated scans/scripts"

It was a webapp, on the same server than other webapps

I already did a lot of HTTP requests on those maps to extract data on some challenges

But I guess nmap on this specific server is not allowed

Since I nmap'd another server yesterday

Update: I'm not banned anymore

whew

I never noticed the old theme had blue & red lines, to be honnest

that's the kind of web dev you want

:s

I noticed right away the review queue buttons aren't red anymore

not necessarily a bad thing, but it threw me off

shrug

seems like a lot of the changes aren't really a big deal

I did have to disable the sidebar right away though, it's completely useless to me

yeah, I have the same feeling

I really don't understand the reaction of most folks

apart from maybe RPG and some other places that have "pretty" icons and whatnot

Just look at the underlined links... it hurts my eyes.

oh give me a break

And the lack of horizontal space is really annoying. It makes me have to maximize my browser to not have every sentence cut into 4 lines.

I will miss the upvote/downvote buttons some sites had

ours wasn't that different but some of them were nice

yeah, that is true @AndrolGenhald

Yeah the upvote/downvote customizations and really nice banners will hurt other sites more than this one (Worldbuilding and English, mostly).

RPG had some nice ones too

I mean god, did you look at English.SE's reaction now that they've mixed in horrible and discordant fonts?

ola!

Yep. Shame the devs think we're dumb enough to believe the lie that it takes too much effort to maintain (those icons are in the same image resource as the banner lol).

yeah, the icon thing seems like a one time thing, or at most once every few years

What do you mean?

but all in all, I really don't get all the hate

at least they kept the badge icons, weren't those going away at one point?

@forest work for them to maintain them

@AndrolGenhald They kept the badge icons and admit that they'll continue to keep them, despite the fact that the badge icons and the vote button icons are in the same resource! They really think we must be incredibly stupid.

yeah...that I don't get

@TomK. Read English.SE's response to the Meta post on their site...

It's... scathing.

@AndrolGenhald They should have just told us the truth: that they don't care for feedback, and that they're removing the icons so that Teams sites don't look as bland so they can make more money for their shareholders, at our expense.

ehehehe

But seriously, that thread is why I hate CEH. Just saying.

(IIRC @schroeder asked me to back up my dislike of CEH or something)

>mfw there are probably "smart" ovens out there with netcat-based reverse shells

Just for anyone who doesn't care to open the link.

@forest they really do care about feedback, and that becomes obvious when you look at what they do. But they get thousands of responses, and they come from all angles. And remember their core priorities are not necessarily the ones you want

I have a love-hate relationship with them.

@RoryAlsop The vast majority of the feedback is overwhelmingly, and exclusively, negative. They have failed to take even a single piece of feedback into account. They only look for bug reports, despite thanking us profusely for our valuable feedback (yeah, right). It sickens me.

@Joshua.J On the one hand, they're really insecure, and everyone has them, which sucks. On the other hand, they're really insecure, and everyone has them, which rocks.

I still find it beyond hilarious that people are marketing smart TENS devices.

Yeah. I tend to dislike change once I have become familiar with a UI, but meh

Like who would want to hook up a machine designed to electrocute someone to the internet? I mean really, who thought that's a great idea?

Or that dildo with a camera on it, that creates its own WiFi hotspot!

@forest no. That is your perception. I see something rather different.

@RoryAlsop Hundreds of downvotes and a vastly net negative score is not a mere perception. The very top voted answers on the majority of the relevant announcements being extremely critical is not a mere perception.

@forest those are crazy, but I understand why people don't get why it is such a bad idea

Wait, I'm not sure if you're talking about the SE thing, or the smart devices thing.

I think both of those are crazy.

Oh wait, I forgot you can see what comment a comment was in reply to.

@forest that is not actually correct. The responders are not a representative sample.

We know that the majority of people happy with something do not respond

Because they have no motivation to respond

Yes, but we also know that other announcements that are not nearly as controversial have a net positive score.

Just look at any other announcement, with very few exceptions. Most are received positively. This one was received beyond negatively.

@forest Report it on the meta question then?

Anyone unhappy with a change has almost zero barrier for complaints so they do it

Result: many complaints, very few compliments

@RoryAlsop But again, we see that that's not the case because of other announcements not having a net negative score.

@BenoitEsnard People already have. They basically said "fuck you, deal with it".

(in not so many colorful words)

@forest People already have, but security.se haven't yet.

@BenoitEsnard That's true. I guess later today or tomorrow I'll write a post complaining about it to the Security Meta.

I understand that they ignored all previous complaints, but this shouldn't be why the community don't complain, imo

I tend to agree with Rory here. I see no reason why I should comment on the meta post.

There are a thousand posts that say "wow, this sucks and you suck and everything sucks". Why should I, who says, "this looks okay" get myself in there?