The DMZ

1:25 AM

@FanaticD, if you are online, please respond. Your comment on my answer here security.stackexchange.com/questions/142103/…

forest

2:37 AM

@J.J Sure, but I don't know a whole lot about mobile devices.

FanaticD

5:28 AM

@Anthony Hello, I am here, thank you for the invitation to chat.

@Anthony Should I invite you for private chat (if this functionality exists) or something?

forest

7:03 AM

-11

A: Is the practice of "security through obscurity" violating Kerckhoffs's second principle?

No. Kerckhoffs no longer applies to any significant degree. Auguste Kerckhoffs' principles were fashioned in 1883. That's yonks ago. Cryptography was not much more advanced that tattooing the message on people's heads. You can see exactly the level of complexity he was dealing with in the ori...

Damn, already at -11!

Anyone else who thinks that security through obscurity is a bad thing, feel free to add your downvotes to the list. This guy is actually saying that Kerchoffs' principle is obsolete because "it was thought up ages ago", which is obviously BS.

If that weren't enough, he even asked a question on whether or not it's theoretically possible for a blackbox cipher to remain secure, and when he was told it was, he declared Kerckhoffs' to be unnecessary. He is... quite a character.

Tom K.

7:41 AM

@forest great sentence to start an answer with
"No. Kerckhoffs no longer applies to any significant degree."

how does that guy have 6k rep?

forest

@TomK. Because SE is silly enough to give -2 for a downvote but +10 for an upvote.

Tom K.

chuckle crypto.stackexchange.com/questions/63339/…

"I don't know what hashes are, but I recently got a developer job in a blockchain startup"

forest

pffft

A blockchain startup lol

Tom K.

wrt blockchain:
https://www.zdnet.com/article/dta-dunks-on-blockchain-hype-saying-for-every-use-there-is-a-better-alternative/
"for every use of blockchain you would consider today, there is a better technology"

forest

Yep. I heard the best description once: Blockchain is a solution in search of a problem.

Anonymous

7:56 AM

@forest Ah, you're here.

Anonymous

Yeah, so I'm looking at getting a smartphone (for various reasons lets just work on the basis I require one), I would prefer to go with an Android-based device, I'm trying to choose a ROM that would cut a lot of the garbage tracking out I don't need, at the same time I need access to a mainstream app store.

Anonymous

Do you have any ideas what ROMs I could go with? :O

Anonymous

I guess one piece of advice would be "buy an Apple device" but I'm pretty against them and would rather not give them any money.

Journeyman Geek

@J.J would almost certainly depend on your phone

Anonymous

I'm yet to buy a phone Journeyman.

Anonymous

7:59 AM

I should add that as part of my question, I need to find a decent smartphone which I can install a "privacy-focused" OS on... :p

Journeyman Geek

@J.J in which case you should start with a phone that's easy to unlock and had good rom support ;)

(my OPs have been a dream in that respect)

Anonymous

I've seen a few people recommend Google phones but I think that defeats the point... Then again, if I'm going to be using a mainstream app store, does it matter?

Journeyman Geek

@J.J maybe

but there's a few things

You can get a rom without google play services

but a bunch of things break

Anonymous

Right... Say I wanted to install WhatsApp without using Google Play, how difficult would that be?

Journeyman Geek

"whatsapp" ._.

Anonymous

8:02 AM

It was an example :p

Anonymous

(I don't actually want it)

Journeyman Geek

well, in theory you could grab the apk, sideload it, then hope that the frameworks it has are there.

forest

@J.J Stock ROM of a source that updates frequently, e.g. Samsung (I think) or phones directly from Google (like Pixel or Nexus).

Journeyman Geek

@forest I don't think he trusts google tho

forest

AOSP itself is actually pretty secure, but many OEMs don't update from it on a timely basis. I think I recall hearing Samsung does, and Google's obviously do.

@JourneymanGeek You can't really use an Android phone if you don't trust Google.

Journeyman Geek

8:04 AM

@forest oneplus is decent

other than the time they had some tracking stuff?

forest

I have no idea what that is.

Journeyman Geek

@forest chinese phone company, Does very nice flagshipish phones

Anonymous

So is a good question - do I trust Google or Apple more?

Anonymous

lmao.

forest

Define "trust".

Who is your adversary? What is your threat model?

Anonymous

8:05 AM

I've not thought about it that far, I just don't like Google and I don't like Apple, lmao.

Anonymous

I don't trust them but I need a smart phone.

Anonymous

Else I would just get a brick...

forest

Security against exploitation? Privacy (from whom, the creator? The OEM? Adverts? Identity thieves? Governments)? Anonymity? Etc.

I mean if you want something that respects you, how about something from Purism?

puri.sm/products/librem-5

I have no clue how secure the OS is, but probably less than Android AOSP and iOS.

Unless it's an Android fork and uses the same security techniques (SELinux, etc).

@J.J What exactly do you need the phone to be able to do?

@JourneymanGeek Sounds like one of those terrible ones that never update their fw.

Anonymous

Essentially, I just don't want any unnecessary data collection, tracking, etc. All I need to do with the phone is install some video chat app, Discord and an app for this device I got for my birthday.

Anonymous

(I realise Discord is not privacy-focused but it#'s more of a case I don't like Google or trust them)

forest

8:12 AM

Whatsapp does end-to-end encryption I believe.

Probably a good bit better than Discord.

Anonymous

Eh, yes probably but it will be quite hard to get the other person I need to talk to, to install WhatsApp :p

Anonymous

This is what makes it difficult, I don't want a phone but without it I cannot use this device I got for my birthday and I cannot talk to said person without a laptop on me.

forest

I thought Whatsapp was very popular.

I mean it's not just advertised to cypherpunks like Signal is.

Anonymous

Yes it is but said person is not technical and just uses whatever they know already :p

forest

Is Discord an app or a website?

Anonymous

8:15 AM

You can use it in browser and as an app :D

forest

Anyway just try to find a privacy-focused Android device that stays up to date.

Or one of those FOSS "libre" phones that come from several places.

Anonymous

Alright. I think I will just say b*llocks to it and end up just getting a normal smartphone TBH.

forest

Is that a bad enough curse in the UK to warrant censoring? O_o

Anonymous

I don't really want one but if I try to explain that to this person they'll call me a weirdo and tell me to shut up and get a phone lol.

forest

I've always thought of it to be akin to "crap".

@J.J I just stay steadfast and refuse to use a mobile device.

Eventually people realize it's just not gonna happen.

Anonymous

8:18 AM

Hmm, but then I cannot use this device I got for my birthday :p

forest

Oh if you already got a device, then you're kinda out of luck.

I think you have to choose hardware for the ROM you want, not the other way around.

Anonymous

Yeah, it was given to me by that person for my birthday.

Anonymous

And I have a phone but it's a work phone and I don't use it for anything personal.

Anonymous

So I need a personal phone to use this device.

forest

Wait is it a device you got for your birthday, not a mobile phone?

Anonymous

8:20 AM

Yes it's a device I got for my birthday it's not a phone.

Anonymous

I need a phone for the app which makes the device work.

forest

What is it?

Anonymous

It is a BondTouch.

forest

Cuz for some things you might be able to use a laptop instead.

Ah

Looking it up, that sort of app seems like the kind that violates privacy.

Anonymous

Hmm, doesn't look like the BondTouch works on anything but a smartphone.

Anonymous

8:22 AM

Yeah... It's a bit of a nightmare but I need to wear it.

Anonymous

It's easier to wear it than explain why I can't...

forest

Like, a lot. And constantly. I mean maybe I'm just out of touch with the rest of the world, but to me it looks like a device with only slightly less usefulness than a rock.

So to buy a phone for it, install an app, just so you can use a novelty toy?

Seems like trying to find a good ROM is the least of your concerns.

Anonymous

Yeah...

Anonymous

As I said, easier to use this and get a phone than to try and explain why I cannot get a phone and use this device.

forest

heh

Anonymous

8:24 AM

:p

Anonymous

I guess I will just choose a phone that looks a decent price, I think I'm just going to buy something refurbished.

Anonymous

I'm not spending £300 on a phone that's a joke. Just buy something from 2015, refurbished that will be like £100.

Anonymous

I guess I will just have to trust Google, lmao.

forest

Get an old Android phone off eBay or something. Doesn't even need to be updated, just get one dirt cheap for like 20 bucks and only use it to install the app.

If you don't use the phone for anything personal, you don't need to trust anyone.

Anonymous

Uh, I will be using this phone for personal stuff.

forest

8:26 AM

oh

> Always keep your app running in the background

Jeeze that sounds scary.

Anonymous

Yeah I know right...

forest

Oh yeah the Discord thing you mentioned.

Anonymous

But try explaining these things to a normal/non-technical person that lives 700 miles away from you, it will only cause an argument or a headache.

Anonymous

shrugs

forest

That's why I only maintain relationships with people who know how to use IRC or XMPP, or at the very least email. Anything else is a headache. I don't like socializing with sheep who just want to use the latest popular "app" like kik or whatever.

Anonymous

8:28 AM

Hah :p

forest

I wonder how hard it would be to broadcast a BT signal to trigger the bracelets to transmit the Morse SOS signal (...---...), just to cause panic lol

Anonymous

Sadly, I don't have a choice in this scenario Forest.

Anonymous

Well, I do but as I said it will cause an argument or a headache and I'm not looking for either right now.

forest

I don't envy your situation one bit. Is F-Droid hardware or a ROM? I've remember hearing that it's basically for Google-free phones.

Anonymous

lol, I wouldn't envy it either it's a pain in the ass sometimes. (Most of the time)

Journeyman Geek

9:01 AM

@forest they've been good

my 3 gen old old phone should be getting android P

@forest F-droid is an alternate app store

Anonymous

9:12 AM

I think I am just going to go with some whatever phone :D

Anonymous

Will make this whole process a lot easier.

forest

Remember to compartmentalize!

Anonymous

9:32 AM

:p

Tom K.

9:56 AM

so torvalds is back in business

forest

I knew he wouldn't be gone long.

At least they've submitted some patches to clarify the CoC so it's less... authoritarian and easy to abuse by the usual suspects.

Tom K.

yeah, they even basically that they don't intend to enforce it

zdnet.com/article/…

lwn.net/Articles/769117

there's also an article here, but it's behind a paywall

forest

Hopefully.

I like GNU's sample document for conflict resolution.

It's nicely meritocratic and puts the focus on the code instead of the politics.

Unrelated, but if anyone has a delete vote to spare: security.stackexchange.com/a/196215/165253

Even more unrelated, but here's yet another reason why I despise governments with a burning passion: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Federal_Prison_Industries

Yes, some states require government employees to only purchase from prison labor.

(This is a US govt operation, but many other governments are similar)

In fact, it is legally considered slavery (and is legally permitted in the USA).

Just remember, it is always acceptable to kill certain federal government employees.

Perhaps we need to re-ignite the Civil War.

Albeit without the confederates and union.

Anonymous

10:25 AM

Wow.

forest

Yep. Incredible, isn't it?

Anonymous

Yeah... Do you consider yourself an activist, Forest?

forest

I suppose.

Not much I can do about it, at least not legally.

I don't have enough shares in all the hundreds of companies that in-source prison slave labor to make a real difference, after all.

Anonymous

Honestly, I couldn't tell you whether I like capitalism or I hate it.

Anonymous

Just like I couldn't tell you whether I like socialism or I hate it.

forest

10:27 AM

Unregulated capitalism is why slavery like this is legal in the US.

Anonymous

They're too broad in 2018 for me to decide whether I agree to anything they promote.

forest

Free market != freed market, too.

Anonymous

You know what I think?

Anonymous

I think that truly, we're all f*cked.

Anonymous

lol.

forest

10:28 AM

I may seem like an extremist, but I genuinely and truly think that "terrorist" organizations are not as bad as the governments they are fighting against, even if said organizations are... a little crazy, to put it mildly.

Yes, we are all fucked and as a race, we deserve to die out.

At least if we don't improve (I don't think we will without a major war).

Anonymous

Problem is, if I think about this stuff too much I will just drive myself insane.

Anonymous

Which is certainly not something I want, it's made worse when you realise technically you cannot change it.

forest

I'm one of those people who do not close my eyes to things that are happening in the world. It's one of the reasons I can't seem to get myself angry about President Trump making stupid "grab by the pussy" comments.

Anonymous

And even if I could, I don't even know what changes I would make.

forest

Well, summarily execute all federal government employees voluntarily involved in mass slavery? Or at least remove their legal status of personhood. That would be a start.

Anonymous

10:31 AM

But if the 1% are as powerful as believed, what will that achieve?

Anonymous

Seems like it will achieve nothing. If the 1% are truly that powerful it doesn't matter, does it?

Anonymous

We're just f*cked.

Anonymous

lol.

forest

It's not just the 1%, it's everyone who buys from Target, who eats at McDonalds.

It's people using Intel processors (yes, me included).

People who buy Honda cars, etc.

Anonymous

You cannot escape it, can you?

Anonymous

10:33 AM

It's completely impossible to escape.

forest

It's the reason I feel absolutely no sense of sadness when I hear about a plane carrying military personnel being shot down. These people are pure evil.

Anonymous

I think this is why I like Mr. Robot so much, I mean the hacking is cool but the underlying meanings of the show are very... Interesting and thought-provoking.

forest

And yes, you can't escape. You can only fight, whether covertly or overtly.

Right, the show which promotes law enforcement.

Anonymous

Well, it's more the whole premise that everything is fake.

Anonymous

I like that, I think it's pretty true.

Anonymous

10:35 AM

And the whole thing that there are only two types of people in the world I loosely agree with that as well.

Anonymous

/shrug

forest

But one thing we can do? Help any enemy of these governments, any criminal who is not so evil as to have millions enslaved for the benefit of corporations.

Train arsonists in pyrotechnics, teach pedophiles proper opsec, tell drug dealers how to deal with the cops. The list goes on. Anyone less evil than a govt is a friend.

Anonymous

But surely that means that innocent people have to die as well, is that better?

forest

@J.J Sometimes, in war, innocent people die. But sometimes you need a war to ensure everyone's freedom for generations to come.

Anonymous

Out of curiosity, if your govt saw these views, would they attempt to do something to you?

Anonymous

10:37 AM

I mean are they that corrupt they would remove a single person?

forest

I doubt they would go out of their way.

Anonymous

Unless you caused them a real problem, right? So if you started actioning these things instead of talking about them.

forest

It's not like I'm particularly influential.

Correct.

Anonymous

But surely your free speech laws allow you to say these things?

forest

I mean really, per-capita, even North Korea enslaves less people than the US.

Anonymous

10:39 AM

Well, I guess that is corruption by it's very definition actually.

Anonymous

Stupid question.

forest

And yet NK is somehow seen as pure evil (I mean yeah, DPRK is a nasty govt).

But they're less nasty than the nations we consider "free".

Anonymous

Well, didn't their leader kill his own uncle for power?

Anonymous

That is pretty evil, lmao.

forest

Kind of like how the US helped Israel kill one of the people who wanted to calm down middle eastern relations a number of decades ago?

Anonymous

10:40 AM

Heh.

forest

Or how Russia kills journalists? Or how the US and Israel jointly kill journalists (yes, it's not just Russia)? Or how medical torture and experimentation is utilized on a wide scale on innocent victims (nope, not Nazi Germany, USA in the 60s)?

Anonymous

See?

Anonymous

We're all fucked.

Anonymous

lmao.

forest

The Civil War is one of the reasons I don't have a black slave tend my garden, yet behind the scenes, countless people are being enslaved to build the devices I use right now. No, not just Chinese children making an iPhone, but prisoners in the US and even the EU (to a lesser extent) being exempt from the 13th Amendment's ban on slavery.

Anonymous

10:43 AM

Forest, you have a daughter right? Would you ever tell her your views or would you rather she just comes to whatever conclusion herself without you imposing at all? :o

Anonymous

I mean, that's more of a parenting question I'm just interested.

forest

She knows my views.

Anonymous

How old is she?

forest

I don't know if she'd be willing to die for them, but she certainly believes in the same cause as I do, and believes strongly (given only the facts).

She just turned 10.

Anonymous

So she's old enough to understand.

forest

10:45 AM

Yes.

Anonymous

This may sound like an odd question but, do her school know?

forest

She is privately tutored. She doesn't go to public school.

Anonymous

Yeah, I figured that would be a good idea.

Anonymous

I mean, I know what schools are like on parents & political views.

Anonymous

Evil...

forest

10:46 AM

While I fully agree with the concept behind public education, they tend to spread far more politics than they should. It's more brainwashing (in the social sense, not the paranoid conspiracy sense) than it is algebra, grammar, etc.

Anonymous

I agree.

forest

I don't want them teaching her "stranger danger" when it's the authorities who are significantly more dangerous. I'd trust her in the hands of some random dude I just met far more than I'd trust her in the hands of a cop, or fed, or whatever.

Anonymous

In fact, my school virtually told students that capitalism is completely evil and they should never stand on the side of the conservatives.

Anonymous

So, I know what that is like.

forest

Well capitalism is evil, but often they use that as an excuse to promote their own (very capitalistic) viewpoint under nothing but a different name.

Anonymous

10:48 AM

Maybe but, their job is to educate on certain subjects.

Anonymous

Their job is not to push their own political motive.

forest

Well that's why I call it brainwashing.

Anonymous

Yeah.

Anonymous

Just like how someone in my history class asked my teacher "Have you read Mein Kampf" and she kicked him out the class.

forest

No need to be in the world of A Clockwork Orange to be brainwashed by a govt.

Anonymous

10:49 AM

And told him "Don't read that book it's pure evil"

forest

Well that's stupid.

Anonymous

How can you teach something if you've never read the other side? lmao.

Anonymous

Personally, I've never read it.

Anonymous

Not because I've not wanted to.

Anonymous

I just never have.

forest

10:50 AM

The man was definitely a nasty person, to say the least, but those who do not learn history are doomed to repeat it. His book is a good look into his psyche.

Anonymous

Yeah he was.

Anonymous

But something about him is fascinating.

Anonymous

Just like... Watching programs on serial killers is fascinating.

Anonymous

But yet for some reason if you tell society you've read Mein Kampf they think you're a Nazi.

Anonymous

But if you tell them you read a biography on... I don't know.

forest

10:51 AM

I've even watched a Nazi propaganda "documentary" which was staggeringly racist (like, talking about Jews being rats, and showing repulsive videos of rats swarming sewers to bring the point home), but watching it did not mean I supported the views. It means I wanted to learn what the political climate was like.

Anonymous

That is more normal?

Anonymous

Ted Bundy?

forest

Well ironically, in 2010 (I think), Amazon removed a book written by the serial killer Paul Bernardo from their lists because people complained, yet they sell Mein Kampf.

Anonymous

I mean, I listen to very emo music it doesn't mean I am going to start cutting myself or choking someone to death because it says it in the song, lmao.

Anonymous

I hate that whole idea more than anything in the world.

forest

10:52 AM

Cutting?

Anonymous

"Games make kids violent" what and Saw films aren't violent?

forest

Ah

Yeah, it all started with Columbine.

Tom K.

guys..

Anonymous

Didn't they blame that on Marilyn Manson?

forest

And video games (the game Doom).

Anonymous

10:53 AM

Or at least they attempted to, right?

forest

But yes, they also did blame it on Marilyn Manson lol

Anonymous

lmao.

forest

I love how Adam Lanza (a school shooter) played video games for hours every day, so the media was quick to spin it as video games being the issue.

Anonymous

Yeah I've always hated that idea. I played GTA at like four years old, I am yet to steal a car, run someone over and murder a hooker.

forest

You know what game he played? Dance Dance Revolution.

Yes, that, and only that.

Anonymous

10:55 AM

Yeah they always do that.

forest

@J.J Yes but you have to admit that GTA makes you look at a car on the street and think "damn, that car would have good enough handling to run from 4 star cops!"

:P

Tom K.

we get it, the US is fucked, the world is fucked, everything is fucked, the media is biased.

can we move on now?

Anonymous

@forest lmao, yes that is a good point.

forest

@TomK. Sure, let's implicitly support slave labor.

Anonymous

Sorry Tom, I was just very interested in what Forest said :p

Tom K.

10:56 AM