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12:02 AM
@D3C4FF g'day to Oz ;) what's new?
 
@TildalWave Our major supermarkets are now part of bug bounty programs. :)
Bit-o-extra-cash? :D
 
@D3C4FF what, if you find a cockroach in the produce, you get it for free?
 
@D3C4FF that's always welcome :)
 
@TildalWave so tempted to edit your message to make it reply to mine
 
@Gilles if you manage to hit it with a bounty bar
@Gilles hehe
0
A: CTRL+ALT+DEL Login - Rationale behind it?

TildalWaveSome additional questions have been raised regarding Windows 8 SAS support, and a later deleted by owner separate question was posted about it, too. Since I've already started writing my answer to that question, and Windows 8 has also been mentioned in this thread, I'm thus posting it here. If th...

You think it's OK there? The question I wanted to answer was deleted by OP so.... ??
 
12:10 AM
@Adnan @ScottPack no mac keyboard AND two fingers only!
Doez i winz?
 
@D3C4FF tried yesterday with palm and a thumb of the left hand and it works too
...in ~ 20 tries :))
 
@TildalWave I wonder if i could contort my penis to the right shape....
//./?';
The answer appears to be no.
 
@D3C4FF if your penis is not on your person, then I don't see why not
 
This seems relevant
 
@Adnan Fuck Zend.
 
12:38 AM
@TerryChia You're really as old as your profile says you are? You appear way more mature :))) Oh, and what's with the pointy ear? I missed that
 
yesterday, by ManishEarth
@Adnan your right ear looks pointy/elfin in the grav
Go from there.
 
Just got ingress
 
@TerryChia why is there a photo of ipod in the wiki excerpt on Death Note (film)? :O
 
@TildalWave I have NO idea.
 
Seems like a script error, there is indeed a photo of it as an icon to some website under see also section. Looks like the script was written to select a photo based on wrong data, looks like it collects them in alphabetical order then displays the first one... strange.
 
1:06 AM
lulz. was banned
apparently penis jokes are okay
penii are not
xD
 
 
5 hours later…
6:00 AM
Everyone asleep?
 
NO
GOOOOOOOD MOOOOOOORNIIIIIIIIIIING SECURITY.SE
 
@LucasKauffman Morgen ;)
 
What's crackin @LucasKauffman @TildalWave
 
@D3C4FF oh the usual bore for me I'm afraid ... been keeping busy, and now I need to call my agent to see if there's some more stuff for me that will keep me busy in the near future too ... getting rather tricky lately in this gowd forsaken land tbh :)
 
@TildalWave Underwear modelling career not going how you expected?
3
 
6:08 AM
@D3C4FF ROFLMAO shut it my dearest is still sleeping, can't LOL!!
 
@TildalWave I'd try harder to make you laugh, but i've used my humor quota for today
1
Q: How can I find subdomains of a site?

D3C4FFOne of the things I need to do from time to time is to find subdomains of a site for example. Starting with example.com sub1.example.com other.example.com another.example.com I'm looking for any additional ways to perform recon on these targets. I'm currently doing a number ...

If anyone has any handy hints... I'm all ears :D
 
6:33 AM
BOO!
9
A: How to get info on company , company owned sites etc...?

TildalWaveI find BGP Toolkit from Hurricane Electrics Internet Services quite useful for providing insight into any CIDR range, registrants, Who-Is info, IP and DNS info, IRR, assigned IPv4 and IPv6 CIDR ranges for individual ASNs, you name it. All data presented is also nicely linked to each-other for our...

Try with HE maybe you get lucky ;)
@D3C4FF You have any example domain we could try finding subdomains of?
I mean any that don't advertise some subdomains that you know exist, and we see if we can find them any other way?
 
@TildalWave Nah, can't share that sadly :( Its part of the the job i'm working on now.
 
@D3C4FF not even private?
 
Nah. Can't do. Besides, then you guys are doing my job for me :P
@TildalWave Not exactly what i'm after. I've got the CIDR ranges and the TLD's, but i need MOAR subbies!
 
@D3C4FF most would probably be in the range of say 3-8 letters and the charset is rather limited anyway... couldn't you create a script to test these in nmap?
 
nah, they have stupid things like sit-internet13.example.com
there are other ones like sft which i guess would be easy. I could probably 'brute-force' enumerate a list of short subdomains, then resolve them and if the IP's match my target IP's i'd be okay...
Hmm
 
6:49 AM
@D3C4FF bummer... it's still words tho not some random gibberish
 
@TildalWave yeah some of them still are, yts-p-app-rexec1.example.com
Oh.
And they've also got multiple sites like site1.com site2.com site3.com example.com othersite.com which all point to 1.2.3.4
So i'm trying to figure out any like that as well
 
most A and AAA records would be listed in lists like HE. Have you tried with the other suggested site in my answer too? Maybe they leaked somewhere
Search there doesn't work however... you'll have to browse through the alphabetical list
Oh NVM just checked and it appears to be limited to A records only
 
Yeah, its only A records on HE
i gave the www.magic-net.info a try as well. plus wolfram alpha. but no joy
 
7:21 AM
I expect you're searching Google with the site:*.example.com –inurl:www already? (this is too obvious but had to ask LOL) Have you cross-analyzed rDNS and FCrDNS results for discrepancies, maybe is something there like not updated DNS pointers?
oh and bloody robots.txt ... you forgot to list this in your question LOL
I would try it with knock (code.google.com/p/knock) but watch out: there is a risk of being blacklisted. — Dr.Ü 8 mins ago
This looks quite promising actually
 
Yeah i'm just reading it now :D
Blacklisting? Pssh!
 
@D3C4FF so you run it through your botnet what's the biggie LOL
 
7:36 AM
@TildalWave Mmmm. Handy botnet....
 
while on the subject, do we have any posts on hijacking botnets?
 
8:03 AM
@TildalWave Whatcha wana know? :p
It happens often enough
 
@D3C4FF Just curious how such questions would be handled here that's all. I personally have no need for taking over any of them ;)
 
8:38 AM
@Adnan not sure that question is not constructive, maybe just OT and would be better off on RE?
OK maybe not... I flagged it also & +1 for both... I'm off, my eyes hurt and see things that aren't there LOL
 
 
2 hours later…
10:14 AM
what's up @CodesInChaos
 
10:35 AM
i have been spending too much time with you guys, last night i dreamt about polynomial
6
 
@lynks I'd ask for details but I'm fairly sure I don't want to know :op
 
@RoryMcCune I think it was after the photo you posted, he just got stuck in my head. we were at a con, and I didn't know anyone, so I went and spoke to him, that was it really.
 
@lynks and you woke up craving donughts?
 
@RoryMcCune i actually got woken up by a PPI cold call :/
 
@lynks I REALLY hate those guys. how they get away with it I'm not really sure. I'm on all the do not call lists and yet they still do...
 
10:46 AM
Have you tried reading the Book of Mormon to them - I'm tempted...
 
hm? @LucasKauffman
I misread that as Book of Moron at first :P
 
@RoryAlsop it's tempting, although I tend to just want them off the line as fast as possible, maybe if I'm bored ..
 
@CodesInChaos ow just saying hello :)
 
@LucasKauffman the problem is I generally feel sorry for the poor punter in the call centre, it's not them I'd like to shout at it's their management...
 
11:05 AM
@LucasKauffman haha always the classic. I also like the one where he pretends to be a cop at a murder scene, let me see if i can find it
@LucasKauffman bingo >> youtube.com/watch?v=ZmLMcQ09BHc
 
@lynks ppi=?
 
@RoryMcCune Tell me about it. I keep getting spammed by Barclays Bank asking me to take out a credit card with them. It seems there's a train of thought that says "inundating somebody with sales queries will eventually make them buy"
 
@ManishEarth be thankful you don't know what it is. it stands for Payment Protection Insurance, basically something you get A LOT of spam about in the UK
 
@AntonyVennard os opposed to the reality "bombarding me with sales calls means that hell will freeze over before I buy from you"
 
11:09 AM
@RoryMcCune yeah. In my case, last time I stuffed the prepaid envelope with a load of shredded paper and sent it back to them.
Next time I'm thinking of sending something heavy so the post office revenue protection thing kicks in on them.
@RoryMcCune The sad thing is it must bring in sufficient revenue, or they wouldn't do it.
That means it must work for the 1% of respondents they need.
 
@AntonyVennard indeed that or they're just stuck in traditional marketing mode and haven't/can't measure the ROI well...
 
@RoryMcCune I don't quite know what's scarier.
 
 
1 hour later…
12:23 PM
@D3C4FF I believe the risk of hitting shift is too great to consider that an acceptable use.
 
Anyone here know the steps required for starting your own CA? I suspect the question won't get a lot of love on ServerFault. (It's not a great question but it's a noble goal.)
1
Q: Building PKI with openssl

vernomcrpI'm working on building PKI. I created RootCA, subCA with openssl. I know to know a steps to sign and using certificate's chain using openssl in Unix/Linux.

 
@Ladadadada The often neglected, but crucial step, is: understand what you are doing.
6
Usually I recommend using EJBCA, which offers graphical interfaces and documentation. Using OpenSSL directly is possible, but it requires some in-depth knowledge of X.509 (at least if you want to reliably make something secure).
 
@ThomasPornin I'm still making up my mind about this, but I think that even badly implemented SSL and/or PKI is an improvement over not having any in that it gets people used to expecting SSL as the default.
The counter argument is that it's a false sense of security which makes people take extra risks.
 
12:56 PM
@Ladadadada There's actually documentation on doing this in OpenSSL itself, although, as @ThomasPornin says you need to know quite a bit to do it. For example, you won't be able to issue EV certificates at all without recompiling browsers, as these certs have OIDs built in, which are also compiled into the browser. I got as far as issuing certificates given a CSR, but there's also OCSP/CRLs to contend with, which gets complicated.
Having said that, they might have taken it out. I believe they were actually trying to discourage people from doing it.
 
1:21 PM
@ScottPack actually, on a raised keyboard like the one pictured there the fail rate was about one in every 5-6, you can't quite make it out in the photo, but my fingers are contorted in an unusual way to avoid that
 
1:42 PM
 
1:58 PM
#4 in rep this month. Pretty good.
 
2:11 PM
CPU penalty? Disk latency will be an issue long before CPU usage becomes a problem. And fixing HostNameLookups has nothing to do with any bottlenecks arising from large numbers of log files. Using SSDs for logging is a very silly idea. No, writing 250 log files is unlikely to be a problem - but NOT FOR THE REASONS STATED HERE — symcbean 59 mins ago
Why, oh why, was that moved to SU?? LOL
 
Ok, so, bcrypt has an input length limit of 72 characters. Is there a standard construction for larger-length inputs?
The current consensus appears to be "pre-hash"
for instance, dividing the input into blocks, applying bcrypt to each block to get new 61-character blocks
and repeating until you get down to the bottom :-p
 
@Tinned_Tuna That one is not good
When we say "pre-hash" we really mean "apply a hash function"
i.e. SHA-256(your-long-input), encoded in Base64 -> the input for bcrypt
If you go multi-bcrypt you have to make some assumptions on how bcrypt behaves has a generic hash function (danger !) and to fiddle with many salts and iteration counts.
 
@ThomasPornin this was my issue, but might there be an issue stacking a generic hash function and bcrypt?
or is it just less likely?
 
@Tinned_Tuna If the hash function is resistant to preimages, the only remaining issue is competition for CPU: if the hash function used as first step is too slow, then it may force you to lower the iteration count for bcrypt. But that's not the case with SHA-256 (by a laaaaarge margin).
 
Ok, so is there an argument for libraries in Java/Python applying a hash function before bcrypt to give limitless input length?
or should that be left for a developer to decide?
(and other language/libraries, obviously :-p)
 
2:35 PM
@Tinned_Tuna Developers should not, in general, be left to decide about cryptographic matters.
Right now, the best is to consider that bcrypt has a limited input length, and to live with it, by refraining from using passwords which are beyond that length.
 
@ThomasPornin but the authors of the bcrypt libraries can alleviate that issue, on behalf of their users at this time -- should they?
 
This is a known defect of bcrypt, which should be corrected by designing a new, better construction, using the normal way these things are done: publication by cryptographers, review, more review, and even more review from other cryptographers, until they conclude that the new construction "seems good".
 
for example, if (in a few years time) the community thinks that scrypt seems good?
 
@Tinned_Tuna Applying an extra hash function breaks backward compatibility, so this is a non-trivial change for a library.
 
or, another kdf comes out, that suits the bill & undergoes sufficient review?
 
2:38 PM
@Tinned_Tuna Actually the "community" thinks that scrypt is a good idea but not optimal, so there is an open competition for better proposals: password-hashing.net
 
not optimal? surely that's the point?
 
@Tinned_Tuna "Optimal" as in "optimally slow"
 
so, scrypt isn't slow enough? Isn't that the point of the settings?
 
Such functions are meant not only to be configurably slow, but also to be so that the best platform to compute them is exactly what the defender will use (i.e. a PC), so that the attacker will not get a boost by using specialized hardware (GPU, FPGA...)
apparently, scrypt still allows some speed boost through non-PC hardware
 
ahh yes, if you have a large amount of RAM, but an ASIC/FPGA for computing and filling the RAM, you'll get a huge speed boost.
 
(assuming your RAM can keep up, or just allocate chunks of it to different sub-processors)
 
especially the slide "what's wrong with scrypt"
 
2:55 PM
@ThomasPornin what I dont understand is what stops people using an FPGA or ASIC with 4KB DRAM per core
 
@lynks It is hard to integrate DRAM in an ASIC (IBM does it for the Cell CPU, but apparently it raises costs). ASIC/FPGA prefer SRAM -- and indeed modern FPGA have SRAM blocks of a few kilobytes.
Which is why bcrypt is not perfect, by the way.
 
@ThomasPornin is SRAM latency realistic for cracking?
 
Bcrypt is good at making GPU uncomfortable, but FPGA with SRAM blocks laugh at bcrypt
@lynks SRAM in a CPU is also known as "cache". There's nothing better for latency. It is DRAM which is slower.
 
@ThomasPornin heh, why do I have them mixed up in my head...
so; SRAM = fast, does not require refreshing, DRAM = fewer transistors, higher density.
 
@lynks Yep. DRAM is mostly one transistor and one capacitor per bit, while SRAM is six transistors per bit. Also, while DRAM requires refreshing, it draws less power per bit than SRAM.
 
3:08 PM
@ThomasPornin do they use SRAM as main memory in any supercomputers?
I guess that would just be the same as having a cache big enough to map a whole process.
 
how expensive are FPGAs with reasonable amounts of SRAM blocks?
 
@lynks When the RAM is not in the same chip as the CPU, then the latency advantage of SRAM tends to be lower, because the bus will include its own latency.
You won't get sub-nanosecond latency out of externalized RAM. To get the full potential of SRAM, you need to put in directly in the CPU
and that's expensive, because it increases die area.
1 megabyte of SRAM is about 50 millions of transistors
In existing CPU, you can have such amounts of SRAM, but clocked at a lower frequency than the full CPU, and semi-externalized (the CPU is actually several chips bundled together).
 
if bcrypt only takes 4k of SRAM, then an FPGA with 1MB of SRAM would be able to run (assuming optimal implementation, etc. etc.) 256 bcrypt processes in parallel
 
@Tinned_Tuna yes
 
which isn't great for people with bcrypt'd passwords, but is still very limiting.
 
3:17 PM
I wonder if there are any statistics out there on what sort of hardware the type of attackers that hack site like LinkedIn uses. Unlikely though.
 
Xilinx Virtex 7 embeds 68 megabits of RAM
 
@ThomasPornin thats a weird number
 
I was just looking at those -- do we know what the cost is for one of those boards?
 
@lynks FPGA are full of weird numbers; RAM blocks often use 18-bit words.
evaluation board starts at 1295$
it might be limited in some ways, though.
 
3:20 PM
68 megabits @ 8-bit addressable is 24 address bits?
 
considering that a top-of-the-range AMD GPU is £900, those might actually be affordable for an attacker
 
im trying to make it line up somehow
 
there's a whole PhD in this stuff :-p
 
@lynks Oh, not that simple. You don't get one block; you get a lot of small SRAM blocks spread throughout the FPGA surface; you then hook these blocks with your custom circuits.
Which is good for the attack anyway: to make many parallel implementations, you need to be able to make many RAM accesses simultaneously.
 
@ThomasPornin makes sense, and if you're a mega geek you will try to pair cores with memory blocks that are physically closeby
 
3:27 PM
How much faster at running bcrypt do we think an FPGA might be?
 
@lynks When you compile your FPGA design, the placement tool will try to do that automatically, but you often have to help it along the way (it's a NP-hard problem after all).
@Tinned_Tuna A high-end FPGA will typically run at a few hundred MHz, say 200 to 500 MHz. Thus, each unit will be about 5 to 10 times slower than a CPU core. So it really depends on how many units you can put in your FPGA. It is hard to estimate "by hand" without spending some time on it.
 
@ThomasPornin I did a little FPGA work at university; I have to say I found HDL's to be a real brain twister. I was much more comfortable at highschool drawing out PCB designs and soldering in PICs :)
 
Some people had a go at bcrypt-on-FPGA: openwall.info/wiki/john/FPGA
 
@ThomasPornin wait, I was under the impression that with an FPGA you were not creating a 'core' as such - in that it does not iterate over a set of instructions, you were actually creating the physical logic gates to perform the computation. So iteration speeds were huge, limited only by gate-delays.
 
@lynks your circuits are traditionally called "cores" -- not necessarily "CPU cores" able to execute instructions decoded from RAM.
 
3:51 PM
on a server mainboard with several PCIe slots, these could be monstrous picocomputing.com/ex-series/ex-600
 
4:34 PM
@lynks it's not a PCI-e card for a computer though. It just uses the PCI-e bus as an FPGA interconnect.
it'd be like saying all DB-9 connectors are for serial. it's demonstrably not true.
actually I can't work out whether I'm right or not now...
they're very vague as to what the "controller board" is.
 
@Polynomial yeah I wasn't so sure what I was linking to :P
but PCIe seems like an odd interface to choose doesn't it?
 
it looks like a multi-FPGA processing board, and there are a lot of FPGA programmers that use PCIe.
 
@Polynomial THAT would be awesome.
 
nope, PCIe is actually common in the FPGA world. high bandwidth, great for serial transfer, solid as a rock in terms of form factor.
the old high-pin ASIC programmers used to use 32-bit PCI form factor.
 
@Polynomial fair enough, i always throught those 'cardlike' connections were fiddly, im a big fan of the big old DIN rings. you knew when you'd plugged your keyboard in back in the old days.
.
 
4:39 PM
the problem is high frequencies
on cables you have to do differential stuff to stop EM issues
 
@Polynomial ahh sure that makes sense
 
and you can't guarantee phase on flexible cables
when nanoseconds count you need your lines to be perfectly equal in terms of resistivity and length
that's why you get those "squiggly" traces on motherboards - they're actually making the electrons travel further to make sure that the data edges and clock edges all align nicely in phase
right, home time :3
later dudes and dudettes!
 
@Polynomial o/
 
4:56 PM
@Polynomial I read that as dudes and deities at first. I'm trained well LOL
@TerryChia #7 myself just trailing @Adnan and his rep trains LOL... pretty happy with the outcome actually, choo choo 3k here I come :)
@ThomasPornin starred this for other than the usual reasons for a change hehe :)
 
@TildalWave I'm getting pretty close to the first page on 'all time' :)
 
5:33 PM
@lynks I just entered 2nd page now that you mention it. Still quite some to go for 1st page but I consider it a success for 3 months here and not a single rep train answer (but that's my fault because I leave them for @Adnan and @Poly :P hehe). I also voted over 1100 times and only 25 are marked as down-votes (others got deleted). I see some forget to vote for whatever reasons...
Anybody close to getting the marshal badge?
 
5:51 PM
@lynks +1 on that encoding question but now another question... if the question gets deleted eventually for being too localized, do you get to keep your rep points?
 
@TildalWave If the question is deleted, the rep points are lost (but not possible badges obtained with these points meanwhile). If the question is merely closed, the rep points are not lost.
 
@ThomasPornin and the question can stay just closed indefinitely, or it's eventually deleted regardless of the votes it got?
 
@TildalWave This question has been closed in August 2012 and is still there...
When a question is closed, you can no longer add new answers, but you can still vote on it (or its answers) and add comments.
 
I guess the lost rep is outweighed by gaining rep on casual up-votes on older answers in the mean time and maybe a bit more of that because of the higher total rep (yes, I've noticed LOL), but I'm still of an opinion that rep should stay (positive or negative change, doesn't matter).
@ThomasPornin oh you see this is what I was missing from the picture, thanks for explaining :)
 
6:10 PM
0
Q: User security is not working properly

EvanPlease remove this question, I've figured it out.

Please apply close votes on all exposed surfaces.
 
morning
 
 
2 hours later…
8:12 PM
@Iszi As per your request on meta, I've added the Linux perspective to that CTRL+ALT+DEL question. Hope it answers your question / satisfies your request. ;) (was quite some reading/writing involved LOL)
 
9:01 PM
@Iszi I was also hoping I'll be less confused regarding the rationale behind it, but the more I was digging, it just became a bigger mess. I tried my best to reassemble my findings into a meaningful answer tho. The differences are clear IMO, but the why part - that isn't.
Maybe some of it comes from the general hatred towards what Microsoft stood for when Linux was first written (and also later)?
 
9:13 PM
@TildalWave You're implying said hatred no longer exists?
 
@Iszi I'm too old to hate, but no I wouldn't say all others are as old not to ;) Some even feel their support for this or that brand is non-trivial. It's been a while I was that young. :)
 
9:57 PM
quick thought for y'all
thinking of building a super cheap HSM out of an Arduino
any ideas on what issues I might need to deal with?
it'd essentially be a Serial-over-USB device that can set data but not retrieve it, and handles "character 1, 4, 7" style challenges
 
10:37 PM
actually I'd probably make it ethernet, so it's easy to do SOAP requests
 
11:12 PM
@TildalWave Id love to pwn some, then issue an update out and have them all patch themselves and uninstall :P
 
11:38 PM
@D3C4FF I believe exact such things have happened before... wink wink... ya'know ;)
(not Tourette syndrome BTW) :))
@D3C4FF Have you checked that tube presentation I linked to?
 
@TildalWave Yeah, i've read about multiple instances. Some 'researchers' publish the details on how to pwn them sometimes and let everyone free for all at em :P
@TildalWave No actually, forgot about watching that. I'll start listening to it now :P
 
@D3C4FF that also happens yup... one way of dealing with them legally... nothing wrong with publishing research findings on non-IP
really slow day here... I guess half of Europe still celebrates work by not working LOL
 
@TildalWave I celebrate every day at work by not working
2
 
@D3C4FF nice one, didn't see it coming hehe
 
^_^
This presentation is pretty good :)
 

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